Change a Fire Emblem Game's story and main characters

[Heir of Dragons and Beasts]

Choose a fire emblem game that you think has a horrible story and characters then change  it.

[Etrurian emperor]

In before Fates is mentioned. 

But seriously Fates it is. Take the general set up of Nohr vs Hoshido, have another set of royals, remove Garon and Corrin entirely and bring in the moral ambiguity Fates wasn't interested in. Keep the strong premise, ditch what doesn't work and fix what went wrong. 

[Gregster101]

2 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

In before Fates is mentioned. 

But seriously Fates it is. Take the general set up of Nohr vs Hoshido, have another set of royals, remove Garon and Corrin entirely and bring in the moral ambiguity Fates wasn't interested in. Keep the strong premise, ditch what doesn't work and fix what went wrong. 

Pretty much this. I think I'd also have Leo as the protagonist instead.

[Ottservia]

for echoes I'd basically just rewrite Alm's entire character to be more like how he was in the awakening DLC y'know an actually flawed protagonist that struggles with his ideals and moral compass having to learn that strength without compassion is just empty bloodlust and can be taken too far which was what the narrative was trying to do but failed utterly at. Also change the qualifications for wielding the royal sword to "only those with strong conviction and virtues can wield it" instead of royal blood. Make the exact same change to the rigelian vault in addition to royal blood. Also make Jedah an actual fucking threat so Celical doesn't look like an idiot. 

As for fates I would actually only really change some of the very glaring plot contrivances and plot holes(Like leo's random teleportation tome) cause everything else is actually relatively solid. Hell even Corrin doesn't need to be changed much and neither does Garon.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Ottservia

[Zihark11]

I mean the most obvious choice would be Fates. Horrible story writing and world building.Characters (design wise) are actually not to bad and were an improvement from awakening but still were lacking. Fates story tbh shouldnt even exist so i would just throw out the entire script and get rid of the whole sibling crap. 

[Ertrick36]

This is definitely baiting people to just write walls of text about how Fates was awful (some of whom I'm sure will only give the laziest of answers).

Instead, I'll talk about Gaiden/Echoes.

Problem is precisely the protagonists and how they're handled.  Change them up so that they're more minor/all around different and change the roles of the new protagonists so that they have a reason to be leading their respective armies towards their goals.  On Alm's side, make the protagonist either one of the villagers or Clive (yeah, I know, everyone seems to shit on him).  On Celica's side, I could see it be interesting if Saber was the protagonist, hired on by Mila clergy (Celica's group) to escort them across the waters and through lands infested with monsters and bandits.

The idea of Alm's side would shift from a gradual reveal of Alm's royal lineage to a proper focus on the conflict between nobles and villagers.  If the protagonist is one of the villagers, it could very well be a "rising to greatness" story - one detailing the exploits of a common fellow who took charge and earned the trust of doubters and reluctant folks alike.  If the protagonist is Clive, it becomes a story focused more on the nobility side, as he struggles to convince fellow nobles to accept the aid of commoners while simultaneously pushing back against a strong invading force.

As for Celica's side, what I had envisioned is you see things from the perspective of a man who isn't even aware of what's actually going on with the monsters and whatnot.  I think it'd be a lot more interesting to see the plot gradually unfold and details get revealed that you didn't know before.  For example, not knowing that the terrors and the poor harvests had anything to do with the gods would make the revelation of Rudolf's sealing away of Mila much more shocking and intriguing.  Instead of being treated to scenes where you see Jedah or some of the other antagonists monologuing about their nefarious plans, you only hear about what they already have been doing and meet them when you meet them.  That way, the ambiguity of their plans actually is solidified, so you may very well choose to trust Jedah as someone who may not be much of a believer and who, as the player, hasn't seen him cackling to Duma about how he'll return him to glory or whatever.  Either that, or the protagonist could be Mae, Boey, or Genny following a Celica-like character.  I just feel it'd be more interesting to play this path from the perspective of one less knowledgeable of the main conflicts on the continent.

I think I'd also just remove Rudolf's family entirely.  I just feel one of the greatest strikes against him is how he's portrayed as a sympathetic villain, yet he treats the family he has like complete fucking garbage.  His only son, he sends off to a village to be raised under false pretenses by one of his subordinates, and his nephew - whom he is essentially the adoptive father of - is neglected and lied to his entire life.  With this removal, he comes across as more of a Walhart type of character - one who instigates bloody wars believing he's doing it for the greater good.  I mean, perhaps he could have some heir to the throne, but the way it was done before was incredibly obtuse and made him seem a much worse father than any of the Fates parents.  Moreover, it ruined the whole "commoner rising to greatness" angle Alm had going for him.

[Heir of Dragons and Beasts]

1 minute ago, Ertrick36 said:

This is definitely baiting people to just write walls of text about how Fates was awful (some of whom I'm sure will only give the laziest of answers).

Instead, I'll talk about Gaiden/Echoes.

Problem is precisely the protagonists and how they're handled.  Change them up so that they're more minor/all around different and change the roles of the new protagonists so that they have a reason to be leading their respective armies towards their goals.  On Alm's side, make the protagonist either one of the villagers or Clive (yeah, I know, everyone seems to shit on him).  On Celica's side, I could see it be interesting if Saber was the protagonist, hired on by Mila clergy (Celica's group) to escort them across the waters and through lands infested with monsters and bandits.

The idea of Alm's side would shift from a gradual reveal of Alm's royal lineage to a proper focus on the conflict between nobles and villagers.  If the protagonist is one of the villagers, it could very well be a "rising to greatness" story - one detailing the exploits of a common fellow who took charge and earned the trust of doubters and reluctant folks alike.  If the protagonist is Clive, it becomes a story focused more on the nobility side, as he struggles to convince fellow nobles to accept the aid of commoners while simultaneously pushing back against a strong invading force.

As for Celica's side, what I had envisioned is you see things from the perspective of a man who isn't even aware of what's actually going on with the monsters and whatnot.  I think it'd be a lot more interesting to see the plot gradually unfold and details get revealed that you didn't know before.  For example, not knowing that the terrors and the poor harvests had anything to do with the gods would make the revelation of Rudolf's sealing away of Mila much more shocking and intriguing.  Instead of being treated to scenes where you see Jedah or some of the other antagonists monologuing about their nefarious plans, you only hear about what they already have been doing and meet them when you meet them.  That way, the ambiguity of their plans actually is solidified, so you may very well choose to trust Jedah as someone who may not be much of a believer and who, as the player, hasn't seen him cackling to Duma about how he'll return him to glory or whatever.  Either that, or the protagonist could be Mae, Boey, or Genny following a Celica-like character.  I just feel it'd be more interesting to play this path from the perspective of one less knowledgeable of the main conflicts on the continent.

I think I'd also just remove Rudolf's family entirely.  I just feel one of the greatest strikes against him is how he's portrayed as a sympathetic villain, yet he treats the family he has like complete fucking garbage.  His only son, he sends off to a village to be raised under false pretenses by one of his subordinates, and his nephew - whom he is essentially the adoptive father of - is neglected and lied to his entire life.  With this removal, he comes across as more of a Walhart type of character - one who instigates bloody wars believing he's doing it for the greater good.  I mean, perhaps he could have some heir to the throne, but the way it was done before was incredibly obtuse and made him seem a much worse father than any of the Fates parents.  Moreover, it ruined the whole "commoner rising to greatness" angle Alm had going for him.

I like this and no this is not to bait people into writing walls of text about how bad fates is cause mine is Sacred Stones the story was boring and the characters needed more character development. But I did know fates was going to be a number one pick.

[Etrurian emperor]

Since Echoes is mentioned a lot I think I'll just add my two cents on it. 

I don't think its the characters that needs reworking. What would need to be changed in Echoes is the plan to remove the gods. Have it actually be a giant conspiracy in all corners of Valentian society with Rudolf at the helm. Put implications of Rigelian generals willfully sabotaging their own war effort and dying with smiles on their faces as Alm kills them and moves ever closer to their end goal. Have Clive be a member of the conspiracy too and have him putting Alm in charge be connected to Rudolf's grand plan. 

I think a lot of complaints like Rudolf's plan being a bit silly and Alm being too competent could be adressed by going this route. Putting more attention on Rudolf and showing him working on the plan might make it seem less silly and Alm being so good at everything would be more justified when Rudolf, Clive and Mycen already rigged the war in his favor beforehand. Alm might even be quite troubled at finding out many opponents just let him win.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[KnightOfNohr]

Fates actually had a great setup. It was just kind of wasted by poor writing.

Garon? Make him an interesting take on the classic "evil overlord" by making him a legitimately caring, if strict, father.

Xander? ...I mean, he's basically fixed by the last point. 

Camilla? Less creepy on Birthright, and on the other routes: MAKE HER SUPPORT WITH CORRIN ABOUT THE CONCUBINE WARS. This is an incredibly interesting background event that more or less composes the whole of her character, but instead of talking about it, they have her conversation with the MAIN CHARACTER...whatever that was.

Leo? ...he was actually done pretty well. There's a reason he's my favorite. Elise, too.

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

This is definitely baiting people to just write walls of text about how Fates was awful (some of whom I'm sure will only give the laziest of answers).

Instead, I'll talk about Gaiden/Echoes.

Problem is precisely the protagonists and how they're handled.  Change them up so that they're more minor/all around different and change the roles of the new protagonists so that they have a reason to be leading their respective armies towards their goals.  On Alm's side, make the protagonist either one of the villagers or Clive (yeah, I know, everyone seems to shit on him).  On Celica's side, I could see it be interesting if Saber was the protagonist, hired on by Mila clergy (Celica's group) to escort them across the waters and through lands infested with monsters and bandits.

The idea of Alm's side would shift from a gradual reveal of Alm's royal lineage to a proper focus on the conflict between nobles and villagers.  If the protagonist is one of the villagers, it could very well be a "rising to greatness" story - one detailing the exploits of a common fellow who took charge and earned the trust of doubters and reluctant folks alike.  If the protagonist is Clive, it becomes a story focused more on the nobility side, as he struggles to convince fellow nobles to accept the aid of commoners while simultaneously pushing back against a strong invading force.

As for Celica's side, what I had envisioned is you see things from the perspective of a man who isn't even aware of what's actually going on with the monsters and whatnot.  I think it'd be a lot more interesting to see the plot gradually unfold and details get revealed that you didn't know before.  For example, not knowing that the terrors and the poor harvests had anything to do with the gods would make the revelation of Rudolf's sealing away of Mila much more shocking and intriguing.  Instead of being treated to scenes where you see Jedah or some of the other antagonists monologuing about their nefarious plans, you only hear about what they already have been doing and meet them when you meet them.  That way, the ambiguity of their plans actually is solidified, so you may very well choose to trust Jedah as someone who may not be much of a believer and who, as the player, hasn't seen him cackling to Duma about how he'll return him to glory or whatever.  Either that, or the protagonist could be Mae, Boey, or Genny following a Celica-like character.  I just feel it'd be more interesting to play this path from the perspective of one less knowledgeable of the main conflicts on the continent.

I think I'd also just remove Rudolf's family entirely.  I just feel one of the greatest strikes against him is how he's portrayed as a sympathetic villain, yet he treats the family he has like complete fucking garbage.  His only son, he sends off to a village to be raised under false pretenses by one of his subordinates, and his nephew - whom he is essentially the adoptive father of - is neglected and lied to his entire life.  With this removal, he comes across as more of a Walhart type of character - one who instigates bloody wars believing he's doing it for the greater good.  I mean, perhaps he could have some heir to the throne, but the way it was done before was incredibly obtuse and made him seem a much worse father than any of the Fates parents.  Moreover, it ruined the whole "commoner rising to greatness" angle Alm had going for him.

while this is interesting, I wouldn't say it's "fixing" SoV's story cause the changes are so radical and different to the point where its not the same story anymore. With these changes you might as well write an entirely new story at that point. Like to me if you're going to "fix" a story you need to have at least a fundamental understanding of the story's narrative themes, goals. and ideas and why a lot of the narrative decisions that were made were made. I agree that the problem is in the protagonists but changing the protagonists to entirely different characters would be missing the entire point of the story. The story echoes tries to tell is how the extremes of both kindness and strength when taken by themselves will only lead a kingdom to ruin and it is only in the marriage of the pros of those ideologies that kingdom will truly prosper. That's why Celica and Alm are the protagonists. They each are supposed to represent the pros and cons of the core ideals of their respective god(Alm represents duma's ideals of strength while Celica represents Mila's ideals of kindness) and their arcs are supposed to be reflective of how those ideals can be good and can fail. Celica's arc does that well if you ask me but yeah. Alm doesn't do that very well but yeah. That's the story echoes wants to tell so these changes just wouldn't work if you ask me because it deviates too far from the way this story wants to convey its core themes and messages

Edited July 3, 2019 by Ottservia

[Kiran_]

The only FE game that I've played with a horrible story and character is Fates, but I'm sure everyone will rag on that and Echoes, so I'm going to do a story that I love with characters I love. Awakening.

For Awakening, I'd really bring out more the duality between Ylisse and Plegia. I would have loved Gangrel to be less mustache-twirling villain and more, "Your country literally tried to exterminate us, and we are wanton for resources after the war drained us dry and your father was awful". I think it would have made Emmeryn's words more impactful, and also I would have loved the enemies to be less 'bandits' and actually more village people raiding other villages because they legit couldn't survive. I think it would have really lent credence to the war and how blinded the Plegians were by their hatred for what they endured that they were willing to kill innocents in pure retaliation and desperation. I also would have enjoyed Emmeryn being less perfect and more "I watched in silence as my people murdered yours and through my silence of not stopping him, I allowed this to get here."

And then have some more behind the scenes revelations of Validar pulling the strings a bit more, and Gangrel maybe slowly descending to madness over the first arc because he's slowly selling his soul in his desire for revenge. I think that would have been a small, but really good tweak. As I found Awakening's issues to be more in just not expounding upon the grayness they alluded too.

I'm unsure how I would fix the Walhart issue. I sort of think it would have been better if Walhart had set his sights upon Plegia and after everything that happened they (with Validar not being the new ruler), asked Ylisse to come to their aid to show how far Chrom had come in forgiveness and the fact that he understands his duty to a country his father decimated.

And I like the idea of the two nations who were at war 2 years prior teaming up against a conquerer. Only to find out at the end that Walhart had targeted Plegia because of the rise of Grima. But show that Validar was still behind the scenes and after Chrom kills Walhart, he kills whatever ruler Plegia had and takes over Plegia and then the rest of the story can go as follows.

I always had some level of disconnect with Validar being ruler right after Gangrel and the fact Chrom had to work with him when we all knew he was evil. And then Walhart targeting Ylisse instead of Plegia when he had intended to stop Grima seemed an odd choice. 

As far as characters, I actually loved Awakening's cast of heroes, so for me it's really just the villians I'd tweak ever so slightly and minor plot points. 

[Hawkwing]

Awakening:

• Show more instead of telling. While there are cases where this works alright (I.E. why Ylisse is peaceful. Helps that this has consequences during the games story that makes sense because of what we are told), other times it's the reason the story is so average (The resistance backstabbing and then rejoining you would have more of an impact if, you know, they appeared more than once or twice. And while I can buy that Walhart conquered Valm, they greatly exaggerate the strength of his army).
• Remove/Alter the scene where they burn the ships. Such a moment should be horrifying, not praiseworthy
• Don't have any "escaping from the enemy" kind of chapters. It doesn't work with the way paralouges are set up.
• Don't have "If Chrom isn't onscreen, our side is loosing" be so common.
• Add lore to the places that aren't given much/any (the Ruins of Time, that house Nah was recruited in, Rosanne) and/or make it easier to access (I.E the Taguel. They have a decent amount of worldbuilding , and there is some genuine thought put into it, but I shouldn't have to scour through every single thing a character says in order to find it).
• Maybe have more scenes where Chrom's wife appears. Seeing the differences and similarities between each mother when they appeared was definitly a highlight, and I wish it happened more often. That said, it would require writing, staging, and animating 6 or 7 different ways for a single scene to play out, so I understand why the time and resource reasons for why they didn't do this.
• Maybe explain why each child character didn't immediately try to join the Shephards when they arrived. I do see the snag of this getting repetitive, however.
• Maybe show what each character did during the 2 year time skip, but the story works fine without it.
• Maybe have a Taguel Warren be a level. Won't impact the story itself much at all, but it seemed like it would make for a unique underground map that could add some visual lore to the taguel. This could have worked as DLC, though, which is why I say "Maybe".

Echoes:

• Reduce the amount of foreshadowing. It's understandable why it was added, since the original had none and thus all the twists came pretty much out of nowhere, but the writers compensated by adding too much.
• Have Alm discuss with someone about his thoughts about people assuming that he's going to be king after the story is over. That seemed like it would make for an interesting discussion, and would become more impactful after the twist.
• Also, highlight how Alm's recklessness will bite him in the butt later in life. Especially since he got away with it twice.
• Since Alm is also hoping to find the lost princess of Zofia and to give her back the crown, bring up whether this is a crack in his beliefs about "station doesn't matter" or if he's being a Cincinnatus who's willing to give up his position of power to someone it was wrongfully stolen from once his job is done.
• Change the Royal Sword to "a sword that's picky about who wields it" or "Only the strong can use it" or something like that. Or if the royal blood part is kept, actually do something with it other than being obvious foreshadowing. Make it uncertain if he's a bastard child of Lima that Mycen had pity on, or show how him possibly being an unknown noble does or doesn't affect his relationships with others.
• Don't make Alm the outright leader of the Deliverance, but giving him a high position is fine, and would still work with Fernand deciding to leave. Alm does have an impressive resume, after all, and he did save the leaders sister.
• Change the argument Celica and Alm have to be a bit more like the original.
• Have different portraits for characters that actually have some kind of impact on the story (this might have been a resource-constraint thing, though).
• Give quest characters voices (although this may also have been a time and resource thing).
• Sage Halychion talking more about what the Duma faithful was like before Jedah took over might be nice, but there may be pacing problems with this.
• So that witches aren't completely sexist, show that not all of the Duma Faithful are in control of their actions, and the only reason why it's less noticeable is because they aren't warping.
• Add to Jedah's first ultimatum that if Celica refuses to sacrifice her soul willingly to save Mila, then he's going to keep trying to kidnap her. Have him mention that if she resists, then the blood of her friends, her enemies, and the soldiers lost in the war will be at her feet.
• Even if I can see it making sense why she holds onto her secret, it might not be a bad idea for her to tell someone about what Jedah said to her. Perhaps after the events of Dohls fortress?
• Make the Dracozombies a forced event like in the original Gaiden. That way, when Jedah gives his second ultimatum at Duma tower, he can state that he'll keep sending dracozombies after Alm's army until they're all dead, no matter if it takes days, weeks, years, or centuries, until Celica gives in. This will strike Celica in another soft spot, and thus make her choice more understandable.
• Don't have Berkut attack the Deliverance with two other soldiers. The fight is easy and makes him look pathetically overconfident. Have him be another boss on a level hoping to get his fun in, and ended up biting off more than he expected to chew. Also, the cutscene where he attacks Alm is honestly pretty lame, so change/remove it.
• Remove the mirror scene. It was pointless, and there were other ways for him escape. And maybe highlight how Alm was about to execute him on the spot.
• Focus on the "starting a total war to unite both countries" part of Rudolfs plan. Also highlight how Alm was a high risk and reward situation that he was perfectly prepared to have fail, and that he gave Alm away because some of the more fanatical members of the Duma Faithful would be perfectly willing to kill a child because of a prophesy.
• Make it more obvious that Gray and Tobin are interested in Clair. Their supports seem to hint at something that happened offscreen, and not in an interesting way.
• Valbar, Leon, and Kamui should speak up more in the story, since their banter was hilarious, and I want to see more.
• Kamui and Jesse should have a support, given their ending's affect each other.
• Change Fayes personality. Something as simple as "a farmer girl who's only been at Ram village for a few years that has an interest in animals and magic" could work, and explain her class options and be an in-joke about how she's an addition to Echoes. Her not knowing Alm the best may also allow them to have conversations that his closer friends may not.
• Make the famine more obvious. It's not really shown in atmosphere or gameplay. That, or remove it, or highlight how the Zofian's are actually doing okay, but their laziness turning a simple issue into a more destructive one.
• Alm and Celica having a post game conversation would be a neat bonus. A discussion about Alm realizing just how large his responsibilities are after becoming emperor sunk in and how Celica realizes her mistakes and is willing to work towards becoming a wiser person could help alleviate some of the gripes people have towards them.
• Give the developers more time and money so they could have actually made these changes instead of being unable to edit anything.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Hawkwing
Improved the formatting.

[Ertrick36]

51 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I agree that the problem is in the protagonists but changing the protagonists to entirely different characters would be missing the entire point of the story.

May I point you to the original post of this thread?

3 hours ago, EdelgardHresvelgTargaryen said:

Choose a fire emblem game that you think has a horrible story and characters then change  it.

imo, the protagonists are the biggest issue of Echoes, and literally the only limit was that the story had to be changed and it had to have previously been bad (or had bad characters).

51 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Like to me if you're going to "fix" a story you need to have at least a fundamental understanding of the story's narrative themes, goals. and ideas and why a lot of the narrative decisions that were made were made.

Implying I don't understand the game's themes and tone?

51 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The story echoes tries to tell is how the extremes of both kindness and strength when taken by themselves will only lead a kingdom to ruin and it is only in the marriage of the pros of those ideologies that kingdom will truly prosper. That's why Celica and Alm are the protagonists. They each are supposed to represent the pros and cons of the core ideals of their respective god(Alm represents duma's ideals of strength while Celica represents Mila's ideals of kindness) and their arcs are supposed to be reflective of how those ideals can be good and can fail. Celica's arc does that well if you ask me but yeah. Alm doesn't do that very well but yeah. That's the story echoes wants to tell so these changes just wouldn't work if you ask me because it deviates too far from the way this story wants to convey its core themes and messages

You don't think there could be other characters that represent those ideals?  You don't think that a hardened mercenary like Saber could represent Duma's ideals, or that someone as sympathetic and warm as Clive could represent Mila's ideals?

I get the whole duality thing.  But personally, I think for Alm and Celica to be good, they'd have to be changed so much that they'd just be different characters entirely.  Alm's story is steeped in the fact that he's the actual son of Rigel's king (which, as I've said, comes at great expense to the antagonist), and yet the only part of Duma's ideals Alm seems to inherit is strength and a will to fight back.  Meanwhile, Celica's meant to be stupidly trusting and naive, and preaches pacifism, yet at the same time will selectively choose who to not trust and also seems to have no qualms slaughtering a slew of bandits who are more a symptom of a greater problem (which she ought to be fully aware of, knowing what she knows) than anything.

And personally I just don't like the "chosen child" angle practically every FE game goes for.  It's why of most of the stories I either prefer the Jugdral games where everyone is a "chosen child" to some degree or Awakening where your avatar is, for the most part, not treated as such and when they finally are revealed to be "chosen" in some way it's more a curse than it is a blessing.  I think that's why I also just don't really care for a lot of Japanese media compared to other FE fans here, and why I seem to always disagree with FE fans on a lot of things.

16 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

I would have loved the enemies to be less 'bandits' and actually more village people raiding other villages because they legit couldn't survive. I think it would have really lent credence to the war and how blinded the Plegians were by their hatred for what they endured that they were willing to kill innocents in pure retaliation and desperation.

That reminds me of the one side-arc in FE Thracia 776 where you re-recruit Dagdar and his allies.  I always thought that was an interesting look into the desperate situation of Thracia - a land plagued by conflict and infertile lands.  It isn't nobles fighting nobles over big ideas, nor was it generic evil bandit dudes looking to capitalize on lackluster law enforcement.  It was two men who had been long time friends, torn apart by one man's desperation, to the point where they turned their blades on each other.  You come to help Dagdar just as his old friend is about set his mooks on him, and you are more likely than not are forced to kill him.

I want more stories about normal, honest villagers who turn to banditry out of desperation instead of simple evil greed.

16 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

I always had some level of disconnect with Validar being ruler right after Gangrel and the fact Chrom had to work with him when we all knew he was evil. And then Walhart targeting Ylisse instead of Plegia when he had intended to stop Grima seemed an odd choice. 

I've felt Validar would've been better maybe as an adviser or something.  Not the full-blown leader of the country, but someone still involved in the political court of Plegia.  Or maybe as a religious leader.

Or... maybe just as a background schemer.  Either way, I have no flippin' idea what business he has becoming the straight up KING of Plegia.  That'd be like if the Nohrian royalty were all killed, they decided to make Zola or Hans the king.  If anything, what should've happened was some nasty war of succession after Gangrel died unless good ol' Gangrene went and had a kid out of nowhere... or he had a relative of some kind.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Implying I don't understand the game's themes and tone?

perhaps I was bit too blunt, I apologize.

3 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

You don't think there could be other characters that represent those ideals?  You don't think that a hardened mercenary like Saber could represent Duma's ideals, or that someone as sympathetic and warm as Clive could represent Mila's ideals?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying There's a reason why Alm and Celica are the protagonists and why the story is the way it is. so to change the protagonists to new characters would change the story too much if you ask me anyway. 

6 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

I get the whole duality thing.  But personally, I think for Alm and Celica to be good, they'd have to be changed so much that they'd just be different characters entirely.  Alm's story is steeped in the fact that he's the actual son of Rigel's king (which, as I've said, comes at great expense to the antagonist), and yet the only part of Duma's ideals Alm seems to inherit is strength and a will to fight back.  Meanwhile, Celica's meant to be stupidly trusting and naive, and preaches pacifism, yet at the same time will selectively choose who to not trust and also seems to have no qualms slaughtering a slew of bandits who are more a symptom of a greater problem (which she ought to be fully aware of, knowing what she knows) than anything.

Not gonna necessarily disagree with you here because what you say here is mostly correct but honestly the only character that needs to be changed radically is Alm because with Celica the foundation for a great character arc is there it just needs to be polished a little bit. Really imo all you would really need to change with her is not make her as stupid as she is presented within the story for example what Hawking said make Jedah actually force her into an impossible situation so her decision makes more sense. Jedah as a villain is supposed to be the one to prey on Celica's kindness and show the faults in her ideals which they do try to go for but the reason it doesn't work is because well the player has no reason to connect with Celica on that level because as far as we've seen all Jedah has are empty threats without any backing which just makes Celica's whole choice in that instance just come off as really dumb. Dumber than its supposed to be anyway. Honestly just fix that and there ya go. Not much else needs to be changed if you ask me. As for Alm you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

17 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

And personally I just don't like the "chosen child" angle practically every FE game goes for.  It's why of most of the stories I either prefer the Jugdral games where everyone is a "chosen child" to some degree or Awakening where your avatar is, for the most part, not treated as such and when they finally are revealed to be "chosen" in some way it's more a curse than it is a blessing.  I think that's why I also just don't really care for a lot of Japanese media compared to other FE fans here, and why I seem to always disagree with FE fans on a lot of things.

Eh that's a matter of taste honestly. I personally don't mind a "chosen one" story so long as it's good but honestly Echoes does not do it well because well the story's themes and ideas are actually hindered by the chosen one narrative rather than enhanced by it.

[eclipse]

I'd rather choose a misplaced topic and put it where it belongs.

[NobodiePichu]

ECHOES
not much i would personally change here aside from removing the meta sexism, since echoeses problem was less in its inherit story structure and ideas nor even really in its execution but in how much room it was given to tell the story it wanted to tell. give it more breathing room and the story can spend time on hashing out alms flaws a bit more and gives the other characters more room to express themselves and at that point all ya need to do is remove the meta sexisim and celicas arc shines properly and the game shines more brightly along with it. might add some more battle maps, classes and characters for each route as well just cause i tend to like slightly larger cast sizes, text on each battle map with its own self contained story, you get the idea.

FATES
ditch the idea of three separate games right off the bat, you buy one game you get all the content. game structure then takes two roads. one focuses on actual branching narrative with choices in game and in game performance and objectives done determining the path taken (ie certain choices on a conquest route can lead you back into a birthright route and vice versa), the others instead focuses on fully realizing the stories of each individual branch well keeping branching choice self contained in each route (so no overlap between routes). personally i prefer the former but the latter is easier to plan around and keeps to the original more so hypothetical changes to story would be done under the assumption of the latter. if that is the case then i suppose the biggest changes i would make without simply gutting the story and reworking it from the ground up would be to actually hash out who these characters are as characters. ryoma are you willing to take underhanded actions or not to achieve selfish goals, xander do you follow daddys every word because you still feel affection for him or because you actually believe in what nohrs doing, takumi are you a little bitch or not, certainly your suppose to see other sides of these characters depending on the route you pick but theres such a disconnect to these sides that you might as well be looking at two different characters for each route, hero xander and villain xander, hero ryoma and villain ryoma, its part of what makes everything in fates feel so loose and threadbare. other then that craft a stronger sense of moral ambiguity and commit to thematic ideas present and maybe make revelations more interesting and exciting and youd be golden.

AWAKENING
commit to chroms sigurdian character arc of 'i wish to be reasonable but i also love breaking heads', give lucinas role as a 'future witness' some more substantive weight to it since otherwise her presence in the story is a waste of time, don't bother going to valm at all and keep things contained on ylisse since valm is also a waste of time (break up ylisse into more countries i guess? or maybe just have the plegia arc not just piffle out?) or if you truly feel valm is essential then give it the comparatively higher narrative weight and presence it needs but honestly i feel plegia deserves that weight more. pull robin off of chrom a bit so that chrom has room to breathe as a credible character and grow into someone who feels genuinly ready to run a country and so that we can also give robins character some room to breath and have any arc whatsoever. id like to reiterate again give our three leads actual arcs, and just... make everything less stupid. and more of a personal quibble if the story is going to be connected to archanea however distantly then have it actually feel like its connecting to that story in a substantive manner. echo archanea themes and ideas, show us archanea locations thousands of years in the future, work archanea more into the fabric because otherwise it would be better serviced by being a new continent and world altogether.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Yo.

FE7 sucks.

I mean, not really, but I'd put it near the bottom of the Fire Emblem tier list.

I don't like Lyn and I don't like Hector.

So the game is about Kent now instead.

[Violectrolysis]

For Fates I would completely remove Valla from the story and have it simply be Nohr vs Hoshido without any 3rd nation to complicate matters. I would remove Corrin from the story and have Azura as the protagonist, but have her take their place as a Hoshidan princess kidnapped by the Nohrians. As a singer she would provide more of a supportive role on the battlefield, while Xander or Ryoma would lead the army depending on which side you choose and play a greater role in the story. She would be a lot more assertive while still remaining suspicious of others, and she and the other Hoshidan royals would be the biological children of Mikoto and Sumeragi.

Iago would still be scheming but a lot more subtly and Garon would be stern but kind at times as he was during Xander's youth (in other words; not a slime monster). Both Nohr and Hoshido would have legitimate reasons for fighting against one another and these would be explored throughout the game. There would be no right or wrong side - both are equally justified and responsible for the conflict. We would be given a much greater insight into the conditions of both countries (like that chapter in Birthright where you fight Shura and meet with Elise) and the Hoshidan royals would receive a lot more character development.

I would also remove Lilith and the Astral Realm or whatever that was called, as well as the 2nd generation.

[Fennel]

Am taking the bait, given that Fates is my favorite FE, but that is mostly for its polished mechanics, features and online play.

The story....

 I don’t think the story was bad.  It’s execution was horrible.  Fates had a great setting, great setup, there was a great opportunity to do something new... and then one realizes it’s an FE game where we’re telling the same story all over again.  So all that good setup tenses and collapses on top of cliched execution and one end up with a big mess, broken hopes and dreams.

Fates spoilers following...

I went into Fates Conquest first, because I LOVED the idea that PERHAPS THIS ONE TIME the traditional “evil empire” that attacks for no apparent reason would actually turn out to be the “good guys”.  I thought we’d get a more mature and even take on why and how nations go to war.  I wanted to see justifications from both sides as to why they are in the ‘right’ side of history.  But no... they we’re just evil... because of crazy ancient dragons again.

I really wanted Garon to start off as that apparently crazy maniacal evil emperor and then had a scene were a key story element was revealed that would make the audience:  “oh my god!  Garon was right!”  Let both sides feel pride in their nations way of thinking, then allow the tragedy of warfare unfold, the grief of lost loved ones in battle.  We could still have had the Third Path in which we found a compromise between both sides main conflicts.

But it was not meant to be... I was very disappointed when the ‘bad guys’ were just ‘bad guys’ and the ‘good’ were really just ‘good’.  It was just another FE story like any other.

It’s still a great game.

Oh, and the protagonist lines we’re cringe worthy almost all the time.  I wish it had been more assertive and humane.

And on the OTHER SIDE of the spectrum theres Genealogy with great characters and story, but god awful gameplay!  I admit Genealogy introduced many great features but no where near as polished as they would eventually become in Fates.

I still have nightmares of masses of cavalry units overrunning multiple sides of the battlefields... ugh..

[Woomy-Veemo-Berkut]

On 7/3/2019 at 8:44 AM, Ertrick36 said:

This is definitely baiting people to just write walls of text about how Fates was awful (some of whom I'm sure will only give the laziest of answers).

Instead, I'll talk about Gaiden/Echoes.

Problem is precisely the protagonists and how they're handled.  Change them up so that they're more minor/all around different and change the roles of the new protagonists so that they have a reason to be leading their respective armies towards their goals.  On Alm's side, make the protagonist either one of the villagers or Clive (yeah, I know, everyone seems to shit on him).  On Celica's side, I could see it be interesting if Saber was the protagonist, hired on by Mila clergy (Celica's group) to escort them across the waters and through lands infested with monsters and bandits.

The idea of Alm's side would shift from a gradual reveal of Alm's royal lineage to a proper focus on the conflict between nobles and villagers.  If the protagonist is one of the villagers, it could very well be a "rising to greatness" story - one detailing the exploits of a common fellow who took charge and earned the trust of doubters and reluctant folks alike.  If the protagonist is Clive, it becomes a story focused more on the nobility side, as he struggles to convince fellow nobles to accept the aid of commoners while simultaneously pushing back against a strong invading force.

As for Celica's side, what I had envisioned is you see things from the perspective of a man who isn't even aware of what's actually going on with the monsters and whatnot.  I think it'd be a lot more interesting to see the plot gradually unfold and details get revealed that you didn't know before.  For example, not knowing that the terrors and the poor harvests had anything to do with the gods would make the revelation of Rudolf's sealing away of Mila much more shocking and intriguing.  Instead of being treated to scenes where you see Jedah or some of the other antagonists monologuing about their nefarious plans, you only hear about what they already have been doing and meet them when you meet them.  That way, the ambiguity of their plans actually is solidified, so you may very well choose to trust Jedah as someone who may not be much of a believer and who, as the player, hasn't seen him cackling to Duma about how he'll return him to glory or whatever.  Either that, or the protagonist could be Mae, Boey, or Genny following a Celica-like character.  I just feel it'd be more interesting to play this path from the perspective of one less knowledgeable of the main conflicts on the continent.

I think I'd also just remove Rudolf's family entirely.  I just feel one of the greatest strikes against him is how he's portrayed as a sympathetic villain, yet he treats the family he has like complete fucking garbage.  His only son, he sends off to a village to be raised under false pretenses by one of his subordinates, and his nephew - whom he is essentially the adoptive father of - is neglected and lied to his entire life.  With this removal, he comes across as more of a Walhart type of character - one who instigates bloody wars believing he's doing it for the greater good.  I mean, perhaps he could have some heir to the throne, but the way it was done before was incredibly obtuse and made him seem a much worse father than any of the Fates parents.  Moreover, it ruined the whole "commoner rising to greatness" angle Alm had going for him.

I mean, I love  Echoes so much, but I kinda agree with you on changing their characters a bit. Also, how they handle the new characters added in were a it strange, but at least they weren’t one sided like Garon from Fates. Also, anyone know what was going on with Fates? Plotholes were kinda common, and characters seemed one sided if you didn’t buy and play throughnall the routes, making it seem like a cashgrab to me. Plus, fanservice. I don’t like Camilla, at all.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Woomy-Veemo-Berkut

[Eryon]

Awakening

*Decide ahead of time if the game is meant to be a reboot or a direct continuation of Marth's saga. Have the lore be shaped accordingly (no wishy-washy info on the First Exalt which can't make up its mind if he's Marth or not, Grima's lack of backstory, the introduction of effective laguz)

*Either remove the children and time-travel or make them the heroes after Chrom with the time-travel saved for a 3rd arc. The 2nd one has no Valm.

*Grima needs to offer a solid ideology he can sell to the elites in Plegia (not so much the masses). He can lie and have them buy into it so they'll do his bidding until it's feeding time, but even with that it needs to have something that would sell to them as Christianity, Islam, etc. did.

Fates

* Scrap Revelation and Valla with the other parts shifted accordingly.

*Have the Dawn and Dusk Dragons be using Hoshido and Nohr to wage their own conflict. Give them their own schemes and world views as to how they think their way is the best way forward for the world. (For instance, the Dusk Dragon actually has a well intentioned plan of cloaking the world in darkness and making everything in it immortal. Creating a world without death. Something that sounds nice on paper but is horrific when actually analyzed.)

*Make Anankos a notable dragon but not the ultimate enemy. He tried to curtail dragon interference in human culture but failed. He sired Corrin and assigned Lilith to watch over him/her. No more Valla and whatnot.

*Transfer Iago to Hoshido and make him a Dawn Dragon cultist that's doing mean stuff and escalating the conflict to make Hoshido a bit less squeaky clean but still on the defense. Zola can take all of Iago's roles from the Nohr side of things since they're similar enough.

*You actually have to kill plenty of the other faction's playable units. Then fight them in the final chapter. (The Dawn/Dusk Dragon raising them.) The royals surrounding the final boss.

*Xander has to be reworked. Make him aware that Garon is a vicious conqueror, but he follows and permits war crimes since he HATES Hoshido.

*Garon is trying to make his empire grow and has no idea that the Dusk Dragon is using him to push his own agenda. He can see Corrin as disposable to a point, but not be over-the-top in wanting to see dragongirl suffer. But still have him do nasty acts like oppress the Ice Tribe and Cheve, seeing them as needed actions in war against Hoshido at least.

*Don't kill Mikoto in Chapter 5. Have her be the benevolent ruler not aware of things her meaner underlings are doing behind her back in Birthright, but she with Hoshido's raised dead are the final defense of Hoshido in CQ.

[Arachnofiend]

I honestly feel that the Tellius games would be better if the whole apocalypse plot was cut for more political drama. Make Ashnard into the man he was presented as before he we meet him (Machiavellian to the most extreme degree but with legitimate reasons why his people follow him), don't cut Micaiah out of Radiant Dawn's end game.

I love Path of Radiance to death but the story kinda falls apart the moment you leave Begnion.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Take Fates. Remove the very concepts of dragons, Valla, Anankos, Corrin, Garon, etc. Remove the Revelation arc.

 

Make Azura the main character, and have her choose to side with either Xander or Ryoma. Play up Nohr's poor economy and lack of natural resources, and Xander's desperation to fix that through Conquest. Have a recent draught in Hoshido ruin their current crop and force them to rely on plentiful food stores unable to be shared with Nohr but sufficient for Hoshido.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Etheus

[Fennel]

23 hours ago, Etheus said:

Make Azura the main character,

THIS.... can you imagine a FE game where the Lord is not the frontline vanguard it grows to be in EVERY FE game?  Instead it relies on its units giving them different kind buffs, healing, move again... maybe also affect the battlefield like in Fates... but never or rarely ever seeing combat.  Maybe a character that WANTS to help in battle but for some reason just can’t?.... too weak?  A physical handicap?... and is most useful leading the army in other ways.  That would be interesting...

Granted, Azura has amazing speed and strength growth making her a great fighter.

[Jotari]

Remove the second act of Awakening from that game and give it a game to itself, either having the Grima stuff part of the first Plegia arc or make the game into a trilogy. Then, instead of it being Robin and Chrom central, have Say'ri be the protagonist with the game chronicling the rise of Walhart. Virion and Cherhce would be major characters, with Chrom and Robin arriving towards the end of the game as Gotoh archetypes (not sure how Robin's gender and appearance would work, using previous save data is the obvious solution, but the 3DS doesn't do that. Most likely it'd just be the default design with some factor earlier in the game determining their gender). Tiki can work her way in there too if she's not utilized in the other Awakening that's created here. Have more faithfulness to the geography of Valentia in Gaiden and give distinct boarders and histories to the countries. Because like three or four countries are mentioned on Valm in Awakening but we have no clue as to where they actually are aside from assuming Wallhart's castle is located in the country of Valm. Lastly give Walhart Alm's Falchion as his weapon to play up his connection to Alm and his parallel to Chrom as the other hero king (Chrom wouldn't necessarily have to steal the show narratively speaking, but the parallel is still nice and works well if it's only present in battle conversations alone). And just to appease me and me alone, depict Valentia as a remote island like it's originally described instead of a full continent.

Radiant Dawn Part 1 is also something I'd like to see split to made into it's own game. Not because it flat out doesn't work like Awakening's second Act (in fact Part 1 is paces pretty will imo), but because if it was a full game then Micaiah getting sideline hard in the finale wouldn't be as insulting.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Jotari