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If Conquest's Gameplay Is 'Among the Best in the Series', What Are the Other 'Best Gameplay' Titles?


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Best is subjective,so it is good to be more specific.  So Conquest was one of your favorites, what aspects of its gameplay did you enjoy particularly?  Then people can find examples that may be similar in other FE entries.

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6 hours ago, Fenreir said:

because Thracia 776 has almost everything:

- it has all the basic gameplay features that the franchise has build upon, such as transportation, capture, rescue, trade;

- it has sieze and escape maps, along with fog of war;

- it uses every single feature to make you think about how you can approach and deal with difficult situations through the game, while eventually giving you multiple options for both moving around, deploying units and fighting enemies;

- it has a fatigue system wich will add more difficulty in terms of limited units deployment, since it will make you think about wich units you can/will bring, choosing mainly not by personal preference, but rather by each unit's unique utility;

- it has skill manuals, consumable stats-boosting items, Crusader scrolls(pretty much like Star Orbs from FE3) and arenas, so you can customize/improve the units you like even further.

 

i said almost because the only exception made is for inheritance in terms of skills/items/stats. if the game had that as well, it would have been perfect.

Oh, I've beaten Thracia 776 plenty of times, so I know this. It's just really predictable since the Critical coefficient is broken. The issue with customizing units you like is, what's the point if they're forced out of the chapter because of fatigue? Doesn't that counter the idea of using units you favor? Of course unless that's Leif, than that doesn't really matter.

 

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, I'm legitimately curious why people think the Jugdral saga is even in the discussion for best gameplay, because I *REALLY* fail to see it, with Genealogy being an exercise in tedium of the highest order and Thracia not being much better due to obtuse mechanics that drag the gameplay down.

Everyone has their own opinions of "best". For example, many people think Smash Ultimate is amazing, I do not. I personally think it is garbage. That' doesn't mean that they are wrong. Not really relevant here, but I think you get the idea.

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8 hours ago, starburst said:

I decided to quote this comment that mentions 'Quality of Life' at the end, precisely because of how important this was for me when deciding whether or not to try the 'older' Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776.

Do not get me wrong, I enjoy old games (I grew up playing arcades and Super Nintendo), but some games age better than others. And I believe that complex games, specially RPG's full of menus and management, like is the case of Fire Emblem, suffer a lot when experienced today for the first time (so that there is no 'nostalgia blurriness.')
Because of their simpler nature and management, I have no issues enjoying 30-years old arcade games, platformers, fighting games, beat-them-up's and even action RPG's. But what I have seen of Genalogy and Thracia 776 tells me otherwise.

In any case, I heard that Thracia 776 got an improved translation patch very recently, which might justify giving it a go now that the system interactions are more polished.
If they have interesting, challenging maps, playing them may be a curious, retrospective exercise.

Some minor and not so minor general issues concerning Thracia 776's quality of life:

Spoiler

More minor:

  • No ability to use items in the preparations menu. You can still trade and take from supply though, with a basic armory.
  • Units who ended a battle dismounted who are then fielded in the next fight and it is outdoors, will not automatically remount on turn 1's start.
  • All Staffs can miss, including healing ones. Accuracy is universally 60 + Skill*4, so 10 Skl is all Staffers need. Vulneraries, plentiful and healing all HP when used, are guaranteed to heal however.
  • Hit rates cap at 99, minimum of 1, no 0 or 100 allowed. Only 1 Random Number is used for calculations, what you see is exactly what the chances are of hitting/missing.

Not quite as minor:

  • No free money is ever obtained. All the money you get must come from selling stuff and arenas. Your main source of new weapons is Capturing enemies, and maybe Stealing a few too. An Armory is in the preparations items menu, but the Iron weapons it sells cost 2-3k.
  • Fog of War blocks all details of the map from you not in vision range. GBA and PoR let you see a shaded, enemy-free (not to say they aren't there) version of every space. You should know what I mean from Advance Wars, the enemy sees everything like in AW1&2, without hiding places like Forests.
  • "Wait" is the top command in the menu. By default, the new translation patch relocates this to the bottom.
  • No unit repositioning before a battle starts. This isn't problem until much later on, then you'll feel it on a couple maps. The new translation patch comes with an add-on that lets you reposition units in FE3's style, which is one-by-one. Each deployment space corresponding to a specific spot on the deploy lineup. Fire Emblem WoD lists this exactly if you need to see it.
  • The inability to field fatigued units at all unless they are given a rare Stamina Drink. This is an issue primarily for recruiting new characters with specific others and you're playing blind.

 

The game does feature secrets as is common in the 16-bit era. Most have some form of hint.

The various growths-boosting Scrolls had their effects to the exact percentages described in the new translation.

That should help.

 

7 hours ago, starburst said:

Great comments, mate; thanks. I find it useful that you differentiated among map design, re playability and overall difficulty, since I assign a lot of value to map design.

If you were to consider to FE3 by any chance, I'd recommend skipping Book 1 if you're looking for challenge. Maybe do a few B1 chapters adjusting to the game, but then jump into Book 2. It's overall the better and harder of the two parts of the game. There is nothing substantial lost by skipping Book 1.

For Binding Blade, Hard Mode isn't unlocked by default, but even on Normal it can be something of a challenge. If you want to increase the difficulty a little, opt for leveling Shanna and Thite more than Sue and Sin, since that sends you to Sacae instead of Ilia later on. Sacae might be easier to traverse, but its enemies are little more, if not hard, then fast at least.

For Blazing, you can try playing with Ranks in mind, you get nothing for it, but . An optional feature in 4-7 and 12, its diabolical in 4&5, so I hear, and its cake in 6&12. But Ranked FE7 on Hector Hard Mode is difficult, yet I think sorta fair. Ranked in FE7 involves managing five statistics: EXP, Tactics, Combat, Funds, and Survival.

  • EXP- The amount of EXP you earn. Encourages using weaker lower level units and taking your time.
  • Tactics- The amount of turns you take to complete chapters. The fewer the better.
  • Combat- Your ratio of wins (battles where the enemy was killed), to battles where that didn't happen and battles where your units died. The more wins the better. Encourages using strong units and weapons, and not boss abusing to grind.
  • Funds- The total of your current Gold and the monetary value of all your items. Encourages not spending money (unless you have the Silver Card, then you should spend all your Gold, but not sell anything), not using powerful weapons, and not using promotion items and stat boosters. It encourages using the risky Arena too, since that generates Gold from nothing.
  • Survival- Just don't let your units die, resetting and reloading doesn't count against you. Units not recruited don't count against you.

Ranked has inherent contradictions, the biggest is Tactics vs. EXP. Lower turns encourages strong and fast, but that'll kill your EXP Rank, but if you take too long with weaklings, your Tactics Rank takes the hit. Ranked involves balancing the two opposing goals, if you play with the rank you get at the game's very end in mind, you have to have to decide which battles you'll lean towards EXP on, which for Tactics. You'll have to decide what you can leave to your strong core to clear the way to victory, and what you feed your rotating lot of weaker units to get EXP. Funds is a side goal during this, making sure you snag enough stuff to hit your target.

 

8 hours ago, Fenreir said:

visually, FE4 and FE5 are pretty much like the GBA titles in terms of graphics, and they did age really well.

The indoor flooring tiles in FE5 I'm certain were copied by GBA. And some of the weapon sprites certainly were as well. The Killer Axe in 5 became the GBA Brave, the 5 Iron became the GBA Silver, the 5 Hand became the GBA Iron. And the Hammer and Poleax were left as is. It confused me a little.

 

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

The issue with customizing units you like is, what's the point if they're forced out of the chapter because of fatigue? Doesn't that counter the idea of using units you favor? Of course unless that's Leif, than that doesn't really matter.

I'd say your overestimating Fatigue, most physical combat units should be able to go 2 or 3 battles before getting Fatigued. Unless you're taking on hordes of reinforcements or tanking ballistae dry (aka Karin admittedly for me, rarely anyone else). Staff units can easily burn out after one fight if you're not careful and using those higher rank Staffs though.

As for the bolded, FE units are both characters to enjoy and means to an end (beating the game). They contradict each other.

  • If you could use everyone as you liked it painlessly without consequence, that bodes poorly for how the game's strategy must be. Strategy requires making some choices worse than others. Hate all fliers with a burning passion? That should hit you when playing FE. If it isn't at all doing so, then what is the point to fliers? What makes them any different from anyone else? Whats their unique value?
  • But, then why doesn't FE make everyone faceless and generic unnamed nobodies, or use stock art and names for everyone in a class? Like Final Fantasy Tactics generic playables? Why not this if units are just tools to win maps with?

FE ideally finds a balance between these two opposing forces. And whilst Fatigue might make some complain about using their favorites, Thracia does have Scrolls in its favor for favoritism. Not sure where I'd rank the cast in terms of being balanced, but mostly everyone is usable (Ronan, you're an exception).

I myself by large divorce personal liking for characters against their usefulness. I'll try raising a few I like, but only if they're not hassles. Otherwise, utility is all I care about, I can play FE without actually knowing who characters are and it's no problem. I've never read a word of anyone from Fates, but I still enjoyed the games. Appreciating characters takes place off the battlefield as a side activity with its own separate rewards.

 

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

It's just really predictable since the Critical coefficient is broken.

I think you overestimate it. Lets count how many of each coefficient level:

  • 0- 6
  • 1- 22
  • 2- 6
  • 3- 7
  • 4- 4
  • 5- 6

Less than half the roster has a 2 or above, and I don't consider 2 to be at all consistent Crits without a Crit-giving weapon. Only one-third is 3 or above.

Only six characters can have Wrath too factoring in the Wrath Manual. Three of whom, Sarah, Miranda, and Xavier, are likely not to use it very much if at all. Orsin happens to also be one of the units with coefficient of 3, so he doesn't expand that pool.

Wrath and the coefficient have in common something you're also ignoring, that these can't activate unless a hit comes your way. Dodgetanking is possible in FE5, but it's not always easy to make it super consistent, and units tend to have low Def compared to Str/Skl/Spd. To rely on Wrath and the coefficient requires a reliance on dodging, hit taking, or controlling everything into player-phase combat where you can eradicate all dangerous enemies in a single turn.

-But this is just me and my recently-obtained opinion from a first play. I'm not the only voice that matters or exists on Thracia.😅

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1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd say your overestimating Fatigue, most physical combat units should be able to go 2 or 3 battles before getting Fatigued. Unless you're taking on hordes of reinforcements or tanking ballistae dry (aka Karin admittedly for me, rarely anyone else). Staff units can easily burn out after one fight if you're not careful and using those higher rank Staffs though.

Say Lara's my favorite unit, with that HP, good luck fielding her for more than one chapter without crazy favoritism. Assuming you're having her make a lot of actions, which if you like a character, why wouldn't you?

As for the bolded, FE units are both characters to enjoy and means to an end (beating the game). They contradict each other.

  • If you could use everyone as you liked it painlessly without consequence, that bodes poorly for how the game's strategy must be. Strategy requires making some choices worse than others. Hate all fliers with a burning passion? That should hit you when playing FE. If it isn't at all doing so, then what is the point to fliers? What makes them any different from anyone else? Whats their unique value?
  • But, then why doesn't FE make everyone faceless and generic unnamed nobodies, or use stock art and names for everyone in a class? Like Final Fantasy Tactics generic playables? Why not this if units are just tools to win maps with?

I suppose this is fair, but shouldn't that be the player's choice?

FE ideally finds a balance between these two opposing forces. And whilst Fatigue might make some complain about using their favorites, Thracia does have Scrolls in its favor for favoritism. Not sure where I'd rank the cast in terms of being balanced, but mostly everyone is usable (Ronan, you're an exception).

I myself by large divorce personal liking for characters against their usefulness. I'll try raising a few I like, but only if they're not hassles. Otherwise, utility is all I care about, I can play FE without actually knowing who characters are and it's no problem. I've never read a word of anyone from Fates, but I still enjoyed the games. Appreciating characters takes place off the battlefield as a side activity with its own separate rewards.

 

I think you overestimate it. Lets count how many of each coefficient level:

  • 0- 6
  • 1- 22
  • 2- 6
  • 3- 7
  • 4- 4
  • 5- 6

Less than half the roster has a 2 or above, and I don't consider 2 to be at all consistent Crits without a Crit-giving weapon. Only one-third is 3 or above.

Fergus is an amazing example here. He wrecks that whole portion of the game, easily. And since fatigue isn't a thing there, he has no penalty at all gaining that EXP.

This plus support which also factors into this, easily maxes critical out.

Only six characters can have Wrath too factoring in the Wrath Manual. Three of whom, Sarah, Miranda, and Xavier, are likely not to use it very much if at all. Orsin happens to also be one of the units with coefficient of 3, so he doesn't expand that pool.

I don't think a character like Mareeta needs wrath to force crits. I could be wrong, though.

Wrath and the coefficient have in common something you're also ignoring, that these can't activate unless a hit comes your way. Dodgetanking is possible in FE5, but it's not always easy to make it super consistent, and units tend to have low Def compared to Str/Skl/Spd. To rely on Wrath and the coefficient requires a reliance on dodging, hit taking, or controlling everything into player-phase combat where you can eradicate all dangerous enemies in a single turn.

In all my playthroughs of Thracia, I have never run into this issue, since the enemies aren't that difficult, really.

-But this is just me and my recently-obtained opinion from a first play. I'm not the only voice that matters or exists on Thracia.😅

I bolded replies for simplicities sake.

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14 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I suppose this is fair, but shouldn't that be the player's choice?

 

It ideally should be. And Thracia 776 Remake ideally should have three options for Fatigue- Full Fatigue, Fatigue Lite (SoV or something similar), and No Fatigue. Sadly, FE doesn't always allow that, I admit to that.

 

14 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Fergus is an amazing example here. He wrecks that whole portion of the game, easily. And since fatigue isn't a thing there, he has no penalty at all gaining that EXP.

 

I cannot discount that some units with a good coefficient or Wrath (which I bring up because it is like the coefficient) are genuinely great. Namely:

Orsin, Halvan, Brighton, Fergus, Asbel, Shiva?, Mareeta?, and Pan?. 

 

14 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

In all my playthroughs of Thracia, I have never run into this issue, since the enemies aren't that difficult, really.

Weird. My units got hit too hard too often for what hits they took that I thought them fragile. And enemy hit rates took a lot to drag down to make them comfortably low for me. As in double Charm, Supports, constant fielding of Glade in outdoors battles, and use of Forests, mostly for Ballistae in this case. As for Def, it took massive Scroll stacking on Fergus, Leif, and Orsin to get them to cap Def later on in the game, which still had no use against those pesky Loptian Mages and their Jorgmund.

 

Don't get the impression I'm a Thracia apologist or anything. It is just it being my most recently played FE that makes me willing to engage in a little debating of it.🙃

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38 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

opt for leveling Shanna and Thite more than Sue and Sin, since that sends you to Sacae instead of Ilia later on

Mixed it up there. You need to level up Sue and Shin more than Taters and Thany to go to Sacae.

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18 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It ideally should be. And Thracia 776 Remake ideally should have three options for Fatigue- Full Fatigue, Fatigue Lite (SoV or something similar), and No Fatigue. Sadly, FE doesn't always allow that, I admit to that.

 

I cannot discount that some units with a good coefficient or Wrath (which I bring up because it is like the coefficient) are genuinely great. Namely:

Orsin, Halvan, Brighton, Fergus, Asbel, Shiva?, Mareeta?, and Pan?. 

 

Weird. My units got hit too hard too often for what hits they took that I thought them fragile. And enemy hit rates took a lot to drag down to make them comfortably low for me. As in double Charm, Supports, constant fielding of Glade in outdoors battles, and use of Forests, mostly for Ballistae in this case. As for Def, it took massive Scroll stacking on Fergus, Leif, and Orsin to get them to cap Def later on in the game, which still had no use against those pesky Loptian Mages and their Jorgmund.

 

Don't get the impression I'm a Thracia apologist or anything. It is just it being my most recently played FE that makes me willing to engage in a little debating of it.🙃

I think this would be a good idea, since i'm all for making more units useful, but at the same time, I like to use my favorites, so i'm conflicted.

I dunno, my stat spreads are usually strange but it's Thracia, so whos surprised? Don't get me wrong here, I really enjoyed Thracia, it's high on my list if that says anything, I just enjoy being able to fully play the way I want, is all. Sometimes sacrificing "balance" for the sake of fun is a worthwhile trade to me.

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2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Best is subjective,so it is good to be more specific.  So Conquest was one of your favorites, what aspects of its gameplay did you enjoy particularly?  Then people can find examples that may be similar in other FE entries.

That is fair. I will try my best to articulate this.

For about a year now, I have been playing Conquest on Hard and Lunatic with only ten units, no 'backpacks' and no royals. Yes, I know that these restrictions artificially inflate Conquest's challenge, but without them only Lunatic Endgame (and probably Lunatic Ch 25) presented an actual threat.
- Thus, it is not sheer difficulty what makes me enjoy Conquest, but how interesting it is to overcome the different challenges and objectives of a map.

- The progressive complexity and variety of the maps and mechanics in Conquest is the first thing that drew my attention.

Quote

On its very first chapter, Ch 7, the map design and enemy placement leads the player to naturally try a defensive position on the central bridge, where one can take advantage of the healers's Auras and the pair-up mechanic and its bonuses. On Ch 8, the game presents a Dragon Vein, introduces enemy reinforcements and incentivises fast progression to get the rewards. On Ch 9, the party is split apart across the map (Azura starts as a party member), enemy pair-up and de-buffs are more common, and one is urged to advance at a faster pace to recruit a new unit and reunite with an friend (who, as far as one knows, can easily die any moment.) Ch 10 is a midterm exam behind a defence map with treasures.
Ch 11 is almost free Experience, but still teaches one to split the party into balanced teams, for each floor presents different specialised enemies. Ch 12 is gimmicky, but has an actually powerful mini-boss and a time limit, and the number of enemies with 1-2 weapons and de-buffs prompts one to use Attack Stance to keep marching on and grab the treasures on time. Ch 13 goes back to specialised enemies, and movement options are restricted by countering fliers, which urges one to cross the bridges; and while the risk of losing the treasures is rather low, the enemy army chases one if one does not act fast. The four mini-bosses are not particularly menacing, but the narrow paths and the enemy advances can complicate things.


- I like that one can set up a complete definitive party rather early in the game (around Ch 12, in my case.) This way, one can allocate all available resources to these units, knowing that they will be the same ones facing Endgame.

- Relevant to the last point, unit balance (specially of early units) allows one to try different units and classes interchangeably and fulfil the same party roles, which promotes re playability.

- During most of the game, the scarcity of resources forces one to manage Gold and items. This may lead to simple decisions like choosing between a Killing Bow or a Javelin, but may also restrict and define the classes of various units.

- Also noteworthy is that Conquest includes Ophelia and Odin, and both look great! And even though I always play as female Cornflakes, I let Jakob die in Ch 6.
By this I mean that apart from mechanics, numbers and whatever, at least some characters must be appealing. I like this silly duo of mages, and use them very often, no matter how low they are ranked by others. Just like I cannot stand Jakob, regardless of how powerful other people claim him to be.

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8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I think this would be a good idea, since i'm all for making more units useful, but at the same time, I like to use my favorites, so i'm conflicted.

And I think Fates did pretty well balancing strategy and favoritism. Conquest at least. The game has so many options for allowing for favorites, and not just through playing a lower difficulty or Casual or grinding them up. If you grind BP and VP up some, that gives plenty of awesome goodies for favoritism. Skill buying is dangerous if you give into it too much, but you can restrain yourself to a lone not-so-broken skill or two, it's fine. And although these small adjustments will lower the difficulty, Conquest Lunatic can still be challenging.

Some would argue "it's a sad thing you have to restrain yourself for difficulty", and I can understand that. But I don't think these restrains are ones you have to go out of your way to put in place. Nor do they make things tedious when you're operating under them. This is by no means a No Sphere Gird No Summon No Customize No Overdrive Final Fantasy X run.

And then there is the children characters. In gameplay, I don't like the Awakening children for being 12 Ests, but for Fates' children, I love their flexibility! Unless your name is Shiro or Ignatius, there aren't problems recruiting any of them no matter when you play their maps. If you love Soleil, you can get her nice and early unpromoted. But if you're like me and would rather wait for an investment-free Bow Knight or Hero later on, she can be that too. Trainees or awesome prepromotes, your choice.

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5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Some would argue "it's a sad thing you have to restrain yourself for difficulty", and I can understand that. But I don't think these restrains are ones you have to go out of your way to put in place. Nor do they make things tedious when you're operating under them. This is by no means a No Sphere Gird No Summon No Customize No Overdrive Final Fantasy X run.

I know exactly what you mean, mate! I have been playing Conquest with restrictions for a long time now, and it has not lower my enjoyment. On the contrary, these challenges added more fun and have made me replay it multiple times (and still counting.) The basis is all there, one just spices it up.

More recently it also happened to me with Octopath Traveler. I like many things about this game, but God, it is easy as fuck! It breaks itself super fast. It does not help that 99 % of the 'reviews' that one finds online are plainly stupid about its gameplay. Seriously, they all tell you exactly the opposite of what you need to do. No wonder why a 12-hour game took them 80 hours to complete.
Yet, by setting some restrictions, the game is finally challenging and way more enjoyable.

 

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And then there is the children characters. In gameplay, I don't like the Awakening children for being 12 Ests, but for Fates' children, I love their flexibility! Unless your name is Shiro or Ignatius, there aren't problems recruiting any of them no matter when you play their maps. If you love Soleil, you can get her nice and early unpromoted. But if you're like me and would rather wait for an investment-free Bow Knight or Hero later on, she can be that too. Trainees or awesome prepromotes, your choice.

If I like a character, I would rather recruit it as early as possible and enjoy it for a longer period of time, even if it means that it will join with less power. This is the reason why I always recruit children before Chapter 12 and have never recruited a promoted child in Conquest. And I have used Ophelia, Nina or Sophie on every campaign during the past year! I even break my no-DLC rule to grind supports and let Velouria join the party right after Chapter 14.

As you said, flexibility is key.

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10 hours ago, starburst said:

It is not only about sheer difficulty, but more about how engaging it is to overcome the challenge.

I understand your recommendation and have read various other users recommending FE 12 because of its gameplay and re playability, and not long ago have I got both DS games. I only wanted to state that difficulty (artificial or by design) is not my main goal.

You see, I enjoy games like Gris, which other that some puzzle-solving is as easy as it can get, and it is its presentation what sets it apart from other games (seriously, I could not stress it enough how beautiful it is.) I also like exploration games like Metroid (specially the GBA ones) and, more recently, Hollow Knight. And I am also very fond of action RPG's, like the Ys series, and platformers. These games have varying difficulties and while some do require synchronisation and pattern-learning, no one would say that high difficulty is one of their main traits.

On the other hand, games like Dark Souls, which has become the archetypical 'difficult game', have no appeal to me. As soon as I read that a game is 'Dark Souls-like', I move on and check others (I also filter 'Rogue-like' and the now-severely-misused 'Metroidvania'; so it is not that I have something against Dark Souls in particular.)

You have to know how to use what you've got.  The game gives you all sorts of ways to beat it, but it's up to you to utilize them.

In other words, FE12 is about knowing how to beat a challenge, not necessarily being hard for the sake of being hard.  Also, no warp-cheesing, either.

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11 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Oh, I've beaten Thracia 776 plenty of times, so I know this. It's just really predictable since the Critical coefficient is broken. The issue with customizing units you like is, what's the point if they're forced out of the chapter because of fatigue? Doesn't that counter the idea of using units you favor? Of course unless that's Leif, than that doesn't really matter.

 

i believe Observer already covered a good portion of that, but i guess i'll give an overview as well:

there's a reason why Fatigue is based on the unit's current HP cap. that is mainly to add an additional layer of difficulty by having limited healers available for each chapter(usually they all start with low hp pools when recruited), while giving more value to items management, such as saving money for potions and antidotes. but it's not only about that.

basicly, it gives more value to every single unit and battle preparation itself, wich in turn rewards players that made good choices by making chapters a bit easier, wich is something that cannot always be achieved by using only preferred units.

S.Drinks are also there to help players that need to use specific units in some chapters in order to recruit new allies, or if you really need a specific unit for a difficult chapter.

a wise choice would also be to use mounted units for open areas and keep the unmounted for indoor maps, because that's pretty much what the game is always trying to tell you: use some variety, don't just stick with what you know. plan your tactics well, and you'll succeed.

for me, that is what a strategy game should be about, and Thracia 776 does that just right.

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12 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Oh, I've beaten Thracia 776 plenty of times, so I know this. It's just really predictable since the Critical coefficient is broken. The issue with customizing units you like is, what's the point if they're forced out of the chapter because of fatigue? Doesn't that counter the idea of using units you favor? Of course unless that's Leif, than that doesn't really matter.

Because i usually like more than 12 people, wich means that in any other game someone is always out. i also like using units i haven't used in previus playtroughs, so the number of slots sometimes feel really tight. I don't necessariky want to use my favorite every map, so i enjoy a system were there are more options than "field in every single chapter" and "bench forever except for that one map that allow to field 16 people."

The fatigue system, togheter with a slow enemy scaling, mean that in Thracia you don't use 12 people, you use 20+. And there is always a situation were even the most gimmickly unit can be a valid choice, for example Martin when you want to capture an heavy boss or one of the archers when there is an annoying wyvern ambush.

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1 hour ago, Fenreir said:

i believe Observer already covered a good portion of that, but i guess i'll give an overview as well:

there's a reason why Fatigue is based on the unit's current HP cap. that is mainly to add an additional layer of difficulty by having limited healers available for each chapter(usually they all start with low hp pools when recruited), while giving more value to items management, such as saving money for potions and antidotes. but it's not only about that.

basicly, it gives more value to every single unit and battle preparation itself, wich in turn rewards players that made good choices by making chapters a bit easier, wich is something that cannot always be achieved by using only preferred units.

S.Drinks are also there to help players that need to use specific units in some chapters in order to recruit new allies, or if you really need a specific unit for a difficult chapter.

a wise choice would also be to use mounted units for open areas and keep the unmounted for indoor maps, because that's pretty much what the game is always trying to tell you: use some variety, don't just stick with what you know. plan your tactics well, and you'll succeed.

for me, that is what a strategy game should be about, and Thracia 776 does that just right.

It's hard to say they want difficulty, then proceed to create insane PRF's/skills for characters,

I'm not so sure about this, but I suppose I can see it. I have always stuck to the same few characters and never had any issue. Of course on the other end, like I said this promotes actually trying other character since eventually you won't have a choice. The biggest downside to fatigue, to me is, for example, you need Lara in 12X if you wish to promote her, what if she's fatigued and the player didn't know that was coming? No Dancer for you, I guess, too bad obviously you should have seen this coming. That doesn't really reward you, does it? hence why I said it's good and bad.

34 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Because i usually like more than 12 people, wich means that in any other game someone is always out. i also like using units i haven't used in previus playtroughs, so the number of slots sometimes feel really tight. I don't necessariky want to use my favorite every map, so i enjoy a system were there are more options than "field in every single chapter" and "bench forever except for that one map that allow to field 16 people."

The fatigue system, togheter with a slow enemy scaling, mean that in Thracia you don't use 12 people, you use 20+. And there is always a situation were even the most gimmickly unit can be a valid choice, for example Martin when you want to capture an heavy boss or one of the archers when there is an annoying wyvern ambush.

Sure, that might work for you, but I only like a handful of characters in this game, so that doesn't please me much. As far as capturing goes, you could just use a mounted unit, Finn is amazing for capturing with his Brave Lance.

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17 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Best is subjective,so it is good to be more specific.  So Conquest was one of your favorites, what aspects of its gameplay did you enjoy particularly?  Then people can find examples that may be similar in other FE entries.

 

12 hours ago, starburst said:

That is fair. I will try my best to articulate this.


God, I forgot to mention enemy skill sets!

- While different enemy skill sets might be unique to the 3DS-era, they add another layer of complexity and tactical variety to the gameplay.
Through skill variety, one faces hundreds of different, unique enemies during the campaign. And one must re-adapt their approach various times per map, even when the enemies share classes. This certainly enriches the gameplay.

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6 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

The biggest downside to fatigue, to me is, for example, you need Lara in 12X if you wish to promote her, what if she's fatigued and the player didn't know that was coming? No Dancer for you, I guess, too bad obviously you should have seen this coming. That doesn't really reward you, does it? hence why I said it's good and bad.

to be honest, it all depends on how people play the game. at this point, it's really just a matter of personal preferences.

i can understand your point of view though, because i'm the kind of player that always want to get all units and items for the sake of completion, but to do so you either do multiple runs while trying out/discovering new things, or you simply check infos on the internet for secret stuff.

 

however, that is just one of many ways to approach/play the game. it's not like you "must" get everything to enjoy the game, or reset everytime something goes wrong.

also, it's unlikely that whoever plays Thracia 776 for the first time already knows about Lara's promotion, or Linoan's, or any other kind of unique event for that matter. those are parts of the game that are meant to be discovered either while progressing through chapters, or eventually later on in case someone wants to replay the game, but they are not necessary to complete it.

same goes for gaiden chapters. they're there mainly to reward players who managed to complete all objectives of the previous chapter in the proper way, but they are not necessary to progress.

 

and while there's people that wish to have everything, there's also other players that enjoy more "iron man" type of runs not only to have fun with the challenges the game offers, but also because that's how the titles from Kaga's era were meant to be played.

those games were interesting because death as a gameplay concept had a huge impact, and it actually made you learn from your mistakes in order to improve your tactics while moving forward through the game, wich is something that sadly has been lost with the latest titles in the franchise due to all these new casual modes popping up like mushrooms.

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1 hour ago, Fenreir said:

to be honest, it all depends on how people play the game. at this point, it's really just a matter of personal preferences.

i can understand your point of view though, because i'm the kind of player that always want to get all units and items for the sake of completion, but to do so you either do multiple runs while trying out/discovering new things, or you simply check infos on the internet for secret stuff.

 

however, that is just one of many ways to approach/play the game. it's not like you "must" get everything to enjoy the game, or reset everytime something goes wrong.

also, it's unlikely that whoever plays Thracia 776 for the first time already knows about Lara's promotion, or Linoan's, or any other kind of unique event for that matter. those are parts of the game that are meant to be discovered either while progressing through chapters, or eventually later on in case someone wants to replay the game, but they are not necessary to complete it.

same goes for gaiden chapters. they're there mainly to reward players who managed to complete all objectives of the previous chapter in the proper way, but they are not necessary to progress.

 

and while there's people that wish to have everything, there's also other players that enjoy more "iron man" type of runs not only to have fun with the challenges the game offers, but also because that's how the titles from Kaga's era were meant to be played.

those games were interesting because death as a gameplay concept had a huge impact, and it actually made you learn from your mistakes in order to improve your tactics while moving forward through the game, wich is something that sadly has been lost with the latest titles in the franchise due to all these new casual modes popping up like mushrooms.

I guess so, although i'm pretty sure Lara says she'll talk to Parn, so I think you would want to try that out. Gaiden chapters... by complete all objectives, you mean get somebody captured? I'm pretty sure that's a backwards way of rewarding the player, but oh well. I'm not trying to spit on Thracia's gameplay, because I think it's great as well, it's just some things needed more depth/explanation, I think. I would still for sure 100% recommend playing it.

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1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

I guess so, although i'm pretty sure Lara says she'll talk to Parn, so I think you would want to try that out. Gaiden chapters... by complete all objectives, you mean get somebody captured? I'm pretty sure that's a backwards way of rewarding the player, but oh well. I'm not trying to spit on Thracia's gameplay, because I think it's great as well, it's just some things needed more depth/explanation, I think. I would still for sure 100% recommend playing it.

I mean, at least the captured unit isn't dead. It's leagues better than having to kill off half your army just to access the side quests in Shadow Dragon.

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1 hour ago, Gregster101 said:

I mean, at least the captured unit isn't dead. It's leagues better than having to kill off half your army just to access the side quests in Shadow Dragon.

Well, sure but the game kinda leads you to believe that getting your units captured is generally a bad thing, so you wouldn't think to get them captured on purpose, is what I mean. Of course, if you compare it's not that bad, but i'm not comparing here, i'm talking Thracia as a standalone.

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13 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I guess so, although i'm pretty sure Lara says she'll talk to Parn, so I think you would want to try that out. Gaiden chapters... by complete all objectives, you mean get somebody captured? I'm pretty sure that's a backwards way of rewarding the player, but oh well. I'm not trying to spit on Thracia's gameplay, because I think it's great as well, it's just some things needed more depth/explanation, I think. I would still for sure 100% recommend playing it.

what i meant was that unless you know wich character is needed to recruit other units, you're bound to miss someone along the way eventually. same goes for specific items and characters if you don't pay attention to conversations and backstories. secret stuff is a whole different story though.

as for completing objectives, i meant doing stuff like keeping everyone alive, be it current units, NPCs and even enemy bosses. the fact that you need someone to get captured in order to unlock and extra gaiden chapter wasn't my main point.

that's also another unique thing that Thracia 776 has over the other titles, because depending on your gameplay choices you had different results and eventually alternative conversations by the end of the chapter.

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1 hour ago, Fenreir said:

what i meant was that unless you know wich character is needed to recruit other units, you're bound to miss someone along the way eventually. same goes for specific items and characters if you don't pay attention to conversations and backstories. secret stuff is a whole different story though.

as for completing objectives, i meant doing stuff like keeping everyone alive, be it current units, NPCs and even enemy bosses. the fact that you need someone to get captured in order to unlock and extra gaiden chapter wasn't my main point.

that's also another unique thing that Thracia 776 has over the other titles, because depending on your gameplay choices you had different results and eventually alternative conversations by the end of the chapter.

I guess so, but it doesn't really give you any hints in some cases. Like having Karin recruit the Mage Knight, who I don't remember the name of. There is no hint, no conversation, nothing. They just expect you to have Karin in... unless she's fatigued of course, then you won't be recruiting him.

I see your point here, but other FE games do have this, i'm pretty sure.

Isn't RD like this as well? Maybe not to the same degree, but it still sorta has this.

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3 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I guess so, but it doesn't really give you any hints in some cases. Like having Karin recruit the Mage Knight, who I don't remember the name of. There is no hint, no conversation, nothing. They just expect you to have Karin in... unless she's fatigued of course, then you won't be recruiting him.

I see your point here, but other FE games do have this, i'm pretty sure.

Isn't RD like this as well? Maybe not to the same degree, but it still sorta has this.

some recruitments do not have any sort of direct hint probably because they were meant to be partially secrets(i said partially because in the end it's always all about talking with your current deployed units and see if someone can actually recruit an enemy), however that's always been the case for some units in previous games too.

as for other FE titles having different results/routes through story chapters based on player choices, it depends.

yes, there's titles with multiple routes from the GBA era onward, it's just that they didn't had the same depth that Thracia 776 has.

some titles are more linear than others, but Thracia was probably the very first one that always kept in consideration the survival of both ally/enemy units during the entire game.

FE5 is still a work in progress for me(just finished chapter 18), but so far i've seen that even keeping enemy units/bosses alive by the end of a chapter will eventually lead you to new chapters and/or give you new units in the process, along with alternative ending conversations.

to be honest, while there are indeed different results/routes in other titles from the franchise as well, i have not seen the same dedication and love for the details that they've put in Thracia 776 in any other FE title so far. we'll see about Three Houses.

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8 hours ago, Fenreir said:

some recruitments do not have any sort of direct hint probably because they were meant to be partially secrets(i said partially because in the end it's always all about talking with your current deployed units and see if someone can actually recruit an enemy), however that's always been the case for some units in previous games too.

as for other FE titles having different results/routes through story chapters based on player choices, it depends.

yes, there's titles with multiple routes from the GBA era onward, it's just that they didn't had the same depth that Thracia 776 has.

some titles are more linear than others, but Thracia was probably the very first one that always kept in consideration the survival of both ally/enemy units during the entire game.

FE5 is still a work in progress for me(just finished chapter 18), but so far i've seen that even keeping enemy units/bosses alive by the end of a chapter will eventually lead you to new chapters and/or give you new units in the process, along with alternative ending conversations.

to be honest, while there are indeed different results/routes in other titles from the franchise as well, i have not seen the same dedication and love for the details that they've put in Thracia 776 in any other FE title so far. we'll see about Three Houses.

Yeah, I can say Thracia feels alot more unique, I guess. Again I think Thracia is great, even if it has some strange ideas. That's what makes it Thracia, I think.

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FE 11 - H3  through H5 only -  This game is primitive on normal mode, and you can make Marth and pretty much anyone else into an invincible enemy phase super soldier, but on the harder difficulties you finally get a really sumptuous experience, since you suddenly need tp be really exact with letting the enemies get too close to one another. It has the "weakness" of low enemy variety, but I feel like it isnt' a big deal, since you soft counter enemy unit types and they use their bodies to power through you since you can't soft counter multiple times and especonaly not on a single enemy phase. It's biggest drawback compared to FE12 is actually probably wall and corrider placement. Easily one of the best though.

FE 12 - Hard and Reverse mostly but the normal mode isn't as much of a different game as FE11's compared to FE11 H mode - Defensive stats being gutted is so good for the design that the game is actually balanced around player phase instead of setting up the AI to the borderline mind control all enemy phase combat of the weaker FE games. 

Thracia 776 -  I do think it's the best pre-DS/3DS game, BUT a lot of it's tactical design is only apparent, and vanishes if you replay it or just have a heavy-handed playstyle. The main problem is trash enemy stats. and the broken critical hit mechanics. The Capture Mechanic / Fatique, add less strategy than they should, because a lot of the consistent units do well with low rank weapons AND have base HP high enough to take multiple maps to be fatiqued, and since every 3-4th map has a low unit limit you will forcibly refresh their fatique anyway. Low enemy stats, are apparent because you can really go to town and enemy phase heavy in many maps... their are exceptions like maps with ballista or when the units are buffed by leadership stars (which really only happens in 2 maps), but otherwise while you will  definitely remember the game for when it puts the pressure on you.... in the end it does so maybe 7 chapters out of 25. 

Radiant Dawn - I used to favor it a lot more, but... it's choppy... Lot of fun low-level challenge early on, but then there are a bit too many "victory march" or "watch the allied AI"  things in PT 2 and PT 3 of the game. PT 4 technically offers what some people see as a good "high charather level challenge" which is fairly unique in this franchise, but in my personal opinion not That interesting because high charather level challenges in my opinion emphases "pseudo low manning" where you still technically use the deployment limit, but the highest stat enemys are really only being compared to your best 5~6 chars, and also Master skills are silly both playerwise and enemywise and make you even more likely to "only commit with units that survive even when I get worst luck". I'm still inclined to value it higher than GBA games and such though. 

Genealogy - This is my least favourite, but it does offer a kind of different enemy group dynamic, since you can't expect to kite enemies to the extent of normal and need to prepare for a fighting involving entire "blocks" of enemies.. It's derailed because it lets you grind money and experience really freely if you use it's version of the coliseum (who even bothers with GBA coloseums) It also encourages low manning because resistance is almost  treated as a "special damage type". Fighting a "block" of mages really makes you only want to do it with your Res-tank, of which you only get a handful per generation holy blood weapon There's no encouragement to circumvent it by player phasing magic units, because like all enemies, they fight in "blocks" and you can't fight one without fighting a group, so only fighting when you have the defensive stat advantage is encouraged AGAIN.  I also think that Base HP and defense growth is almost across the board too high for almost every charather

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