FE16 Same-Sex Relationship Discussion

[Death]

10 minutes ago, PersonWithTime said:

This news honestly breaks my heart and is giving me really self conscious feelings that I haven't felt in a really long time.

Why can't people take relationships between guys seriously? It's stuff like this that really makes me feel less than human. I don't even know what to do.

My hope is that if enough people talk about this, maybe they'll consider changing it. This game is popular, much more than the previous in the series. I think it has a chance. I don't want to mod my game just to have gay characters 😞

[PersonWithTime]

1 hour ago, magenero29 said:

When stuff like this appears, what I do is to remind myself how far lgbt rights have come. And to look for better representation in the media, specially in books.

That's a good idea. I need to just drown myself in a bunch of dude/dude stories until I'm all like, "There are other people in the world that like guys!?" I just need to find those stories. It really sucks though because I bought the game and I really wanted to play it but now every time I look at it I get really depressed. I need a little purge for the time being. Just good happy things for a tiny bit.

1 hour ago, Death said:

My hope is that if enough people talk about this, maybe they'll consider changing it. This game is popular, much more than the previous in the series. I think it has a chance. I don't want to mod my game just to have gay characters 😞

I know Fire Emblem is doing better than ever, and for a previously neglected franchise I'm so happy for it. But do enough people even care that it's guys that aren't given the gay option? That's what I'm worried about. I'll do what I can to bring the word out there but I can't help feeling that people will hear what I say before shrugging and getting on with their lives. God I seriously hope while they're changing Male Byleth's voice in Three Houses NoA rethink things over and just think, "Maybe it was a bad idea to let there only be 1 gay male option for Byleth. And we should do some localization magic and add some more in to make it equal." But I don't want to get my hopes up and be upset for a 2nd time when that doesn't happen.

(Also I'm a little peeved because I've hooked two people on Fire Emblem and now they're for lifers and the least Intelligent Systems could do is throw me a bone)

But enough of that sad crap, I need to feel better. Positivity. Positivity.

[zuibangde]

4 hours ago, PersonWithTime said:

That's a good idea. I need to just drown myself in a bunch of dude/dude stories until I'm all like, "There are other people in the world that like guys!?" I just need to find those stories. It really sucks though because I bought the game and I really wanted to play it but now every time I look at it I get really depressed. I need a little purge for the time being. Just good happy things for a tiny bit.

I know Fire Emblem is doing better than ever, and for a previously neglected franchise I'm so happy for it. But do enough people even care that it's guys that aren't given the gay option? That's what I'm worried about. I'll do what I can to bring the word out there but I can't help feeling that people will hear what I say before shrugging and getting on with their lives. God I seriously hope while they're changing Male Byleth's voice in Three Houses NoA rethink things over and just think, "Maybe it was a bad idea to let there only be 1 gay male option for Byleth. And we should do some localization magic and add some more in to make it equal." But I don't want to get my hopes up and be upset for a 2nd time when that doesn't happen.

(Also I'm a little peeved because I've hooked two people on Fire Emblem and now they're for lifers and the least Intelligent Systems could do is throw me a bone)

But enough of that sad crap, I need to feel better. Positivity. Positivity.

I completely understand how you feel and I think that many people are feeling the same about this situation. I recommend that if you (and anyone that's lurking) haven't already, to perhaps contact Nintendo or one of the prominent game review sites (Kotaku, Polygon etc.) and write about your feelings/the situation in a polite manner. I think that after doing that, you'll feel a bit better. A lot of the conversation about how unfair the mlm situation is pretty limited to the dedicated FE fanbase. I've also shared the situation to some non FE fans/new FE players and while they think it's unfair, the reality is that they don't care enough to actually tell Nintendo/IS about the issue. In a sense, we're in an echo chamber and it feels like the message is not really being relayed to those who can put a change to the situation.

I think that by sending an email/tweet at them, people can feel a bit better knowing that they've 'done their part' and feel a bit less hopeless about the situation.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

From everything I have read, I cannot help but feel that the same sex-relationships in this game were designed by straight men for straight men. The balant queer-biating on the male side I feel make it actively worse than Fates, finding male same-sex relationships in gaming is rare enough as is, so having a game that dangles that illusion of choice (not once, but twice) is the ultimate insult. The intent comes of as malicious. 

Spoiler

While Linhardt seems like a servicable option for male players. The fact that he is the only one and the baiting with Alois and Gilbert looming over undercuts it.

In regards to the female options, I am happy that they have a solid number in terms of variety. Conventually attractive and very feminine looking options, qualities that does appeal to a straight male demographic. Nothing wrong with conventually attractive and feminine, but when that is the only type available. Being designed for straight men becomes more apparent rather than wanting to be inclusive.

Spoiler

When discussing female options, I heard Rhea and Sothis were platonic so I don't have them in mind when I am discussing the f/f options.

I also think it is great that we have a gaming community here that is calling this out.

[Death]

19 minutes ago, Judi Dench Cat said:

I also think it is great that we have a gaming community here that is calling this out.

I completely agree. I've been pretty religiously following some of the tweets and reddit posts and such. And while it's not always supportive, seeing others really caring about this makes me so happy.

[Zadok the priest]

17 hours ago, PersonWithTime said:

It really sucks though because I bought the game and I really wanted to play it but now every time I look at it I get really depressed. I need a little purge for the time being.

I had similar feelings, except for the fact that I didn't preorder it but decided to postpone the purchase indefinetely. Fortunately my disappointment is slowly turning into acceptance. And yeah, I have been told in another forum that "SJWs" like me shouldn't complain because we are a minority that noone is supposed to care about. In such cases having people who you can talk to and who actually care helps a lot.

What I wonder is that I've been told that FE usually has a very strong female playerbase. I can't dig it up but someone on Discord showed my a statistic from an official Artbook or something showing that the majority of FE Awakening players is actually female. Considering the fujoshi potential in that demographic, why is Nintendo neglecting them so hard as well?

[EJ107]

A few thoughts, now that I'm several hours into the game:

Overall I am enjoying it, but the lack of MLM content remains, by far, my biggest gripe with the game. I am all for varying S supports (some romantic, some ambiguous, some platonic), but the unambiguously platonic S supports should really be marked differently because it is honestly confusing. 

Overall Im very happy with the writing so far. All of the LGBT characters feel like fully fleshed out characters, not relying on stereotypes. The female options also don't feel like their sexuality is just for fanservice. But that also extends to the excellent writing and more subdued fanservice in the game as a whole. I like Linhardt more than I expected to as a character, though I still have no interest in him as an S support option for Byleth (I'm recruiting Ingrid and pairing my M!Byleth with her, because she's grown of me as a character and I love love love her voice). 

I'm glad that theres a lot of explicitly romantic WLW endings, including several outside of Byleth, but the fact that despite this there is only one explicitly romantic MLM ending in the entire game is very, very poor. While Fates also only had one option i was expecting some form of progress, and the huge disparity between it and the many WLW options only make it look even worse by comparison. It really drags down an otherwise very good game.

 If anyone has any ideas on how to express these shared frustrations in a way that might enact change, please let me know, because I want to make it clear that MLM content is something I want to see more of in future, and would be willing to pay for were it included in future DLC (depending on quality, of course). 

Edited July 29, 2019 by EJ107

[evoyvoy]

5 hours ago, EJ107 said:

 If anyone has any ideas on how to express these shared frustrations in a way that might enact change, please let me know, because I want to make it clear that MLM content is something I want to see more of in future, and would be willing to pay for were it included in future DLC (depending on quality, of course). 

Someone on reddit posted a pretty comprehensive list of ways to contact Nintendo, IS and influential publications to relay the issue to. The post got buried pretty quickly because of all the other new posts about the game and some people downvoting it as the topic is ‘done to death’.

It wouldn’t hurt to try to contact Nintendo (because they clearly listen regarding the M!Byleth voice acting). Contacting various prominent gaming websites will also be beneficial too as it raises the issue outside of the FE bubble and will create more uproar. 

If you (and others reading this) search ‘Let’s bring some attention to’ in the fire emblem subreddit, the post should appear (the actual title is much longer).

Edited July 29, 2019 by evoyvoy

[Death]

37 minutes ago, evoyvoy said:

Someone on reddit posted a pretty comprehensive list of ways to contact Nintendo, IS and influential publications to relay the issue to. The post got buried pretty quickly because of all the other new posts about the game and some people downvoting it as the topic is ‘done to death’.

It wouldn’t hurt to try to contact Nintendo (because they clearly listen regarding the M!Byleth voice acting). Contacting various prominent gaming websites will also be beneficial too as it raises the issue outside of the FE bubble and will create more uproar. 

If you (and others reading this) search ‘Let’s bring some attention to’ in the fire emblem subreddit, the post should appear (the actual title is much longer).

Here's a link to it

It was pretty well received on r/gaymers. Less-so but not poorly received on the FE subreddit, but there's a few bigots over there.

[xchickengirlx]

I had thought there would be more backlash after the game came out, but I haven't seen much yet. Granted, it hasn't been a few days after the release, but prior to the game's release, there were always a couple threads on the fire emblem reddit since there is a pretty strong lbgt community over there, who are supported enough to not have their threads and comments get downvoted into obscurity. Now no one is talking about this issue anymore.

As of the typing of this comment, I've barely been able to play the game so far. Just barely past the prologue. I am playing as M!Byleth for GD and plan to recruit Linhardt to S rank romance him. He may be the only m/m option just I just feel the need to experience it. I've heard positive things about his character and his support, as well as many folks who've said they changed their mind about Linhardt, yadda yadda. Of course, having Claude be bi to S rank him would have been amazing...or just more M/M choices. I'll always be bitter about it deep down, but at the same time I'm kinda tired of being of being upset over it.

While it's great for fans to let their voices be heard, I'm just too pessimistic in hoping that Nintendo/IS will throw the lgbt community a bone by giving more M/M choices through a patch or DLC. I just don't think they care enough, despite how many lgbt folks play the FE games. It sucks but I've come to accept it with these game developers. 

[EDIT] just looked at that reddit thread. Yeesh, only 21 comments, but half of the comments are from people being dismissive jerks. I didn't see that attitude as much in the subreddit prior to the game's release. in fact there was a decent amount of support coming from the straight players. Comments from bigots would get downvoted pretty quickly.

Edited July 29, 2019 by xchickengirlx
added comment

[Senpoi]

I'm still super sad at our lack M/M choices, but I'm gonna follow the reddit post and contact NoA, IS, etc. with how I feel about the issue in an otherwise stellar game :( too sad to be properly angry, but one can hope this can be better in the future! That or pray the hacks are made faster lol.

[bufkus]

20 hours ago, Judi Dench Cat said:

From everything I have read, I cannot help but feel that the same sex-relationships in this game were designed by straight men for straight men.

I mean this is pretty obvious. Look at the game's credits. Pretty much only men were responsible for the scenario writing and such, and the only women who worked on the game just did artwork or were part of Koei Tecmo (which did mainly animation/programming). And it's probably unlikely that anyone from IntSys is gay.

Honestly people shouldn't expect quality same-sex relationships in games from companies that don't have women or gay men in high positions.

Edited July 29, 2019 by bufkus

[Parrhesia]

Regarding feedback, I feel this is a honey-over-vinegar situation. The situation has improved, and that should be acknowledged - adequate WLW but inadequate MLM options, as the consensus seems to be, is still a step forward from whatever the hell FE14 was, and the vast gaping nothing before that. Swarming IS with complaints might well have the opposite effect to what's intended, and discourage them from exploring more same-sex options in future - might even come across as a backlash for having same-sex options at all. Seethe to your heart's content, but 'you're clearly trying, and it would be fucking Lit if you tried harder, especially wrt MLM options for Guyleth' is going to come across as more constructive than 'fuck you for not giving me what I want'.

(And if it feels like your post has been hidden, it was, and you can probably guess why. Don't be the trolls, don't feed the trolls. The report button exists for a reason.)

Edited July 29, 2019 by Parrhesia

[EJ107]

Well, I sent a tweet to Nintendo Europe as the Reddit Thread suggested. It's not much, but it is nice feeling like I've at least tried to get my feedback out there. 

 

[PersonWithTime]

On 7/28/2019 at 3:07 AM, zuibangde said:

I recommend that if you (and anyone that's lurking) haven't already, to perhaps contact Nintendo or one of the prominent game review sites (Kotaku, Polygon etc.) and write about your feelings/the situation in a polite manner.

I may tipped off Kotaku about this and pitched an idea to Polygon... I'd love to contact Nintendo and Intelligent Systems but the former only wants to talk to you if you have technical difficulties and not about problem with game contents. The later only has contact info in Japanese and I don't want to send my thoughts about this to the wrong places.

18 hours ago, Judi Dench Cat said:

From everything I have read, I cannot help but feel that the same sex-relationships in this game were designed by straight men for straight men. The balant queer-biating on the male side I feel make it actively worse than Fates, finding male same-sex relationships in gaming is rare enough as is, so having a game that dangles that illusion of choice (not once, but twice) is the ultimate insult. The intent comes of as malicious. 

I felt like Fates was a great step. So I was happy with that. It had *SHOCK* equal representation. 1 for guys and 1 for girls. It could have been better but it wasn't bad. I wasn't okay with, "Zero" because I don't want to date 40 year olds. But NoA aged him the hell down as Niles, all because of writing and casting a voice actor that sounds 20-something. Plus I think I heard that their original S-Support was basically saying something like, "Why am I cursed to like a man" or something along the lines of that. I don't know I read it briefly before feeling super uncomfortable. But basically NoA changed their S-Support to make it feel like a normal. And I'm really surprised NoA didn't see this and think about how us westerners would take the news.

18 hours ago, Zadok the priest said:

I had similar feelings, except for the fact that I didn't preorder it but decided to postpone the purchase indefinetely. Fortunately my disappointment is slowly turning into acceptance. And yeah, I have been told in another forum that "SJWs" like me shouldn't complain because we are a minority that noone is supposed to care about. In such cases having people who you can talk to and who actually care helps a lot.

What I wonder is that I've been told that FE usually has a very strong female playerbase. I can't dig it up but someone on Discord showed my a statistic from an official Artbook or something showing that the majority of FE Awakening players is actually female. Considering the fujoshi potential in that demographic, why is Nintendo neglecting them so hard as well?

Dude as someone who bought the Echoes DLC as soon as I had the game, I'm not buying the Three Houses one even once I get out of my depressed state and focus on the minimal attention Three Houses places on marriage. Also seriously a lot of chicks love gay dudes (and I love them might I add), and all they want is guys loving each other yet they too are constantly denied that.

11 hours ago, xchickengirlx said:

I had thought there would be more backlash after the game came out, but I haven't seen much yet. 

Of course, having Claude be bi to S rank him would have been amazing...or just more M/M choices. I'll always be bitter about it deep down, but at the same time I'm kinda tired of being of being upset over it.

While it's great for fans to let their voices be heard, I'm just too pessimistic in hoping that Nintendo/IS will throw the lgbt community a bone by giving more M/M choices through a patch or DLC. I just don't think they care enough, despite how many lgbt folks play the FE games. It sucks but I've come to accept it with these game developers. 

Before they announced this sorry state of affairs I looked at everyone and thought it'd be great if Dimitri was the bi option because everyone everywhere has a hard time thinking about guys like being gay. But I thought they'd make it Claude and everyone wanted it to be Claude so I was like, he's not for me but I'm happy just knowing that he's popular and will probably be bi. Holy hell nope. Even if they made Claude bi now I still wouldn't get with him but I'd be so happy that so many could have their dreams come too. I think if you like guys you're mostly just shoved in a corner and forgotten about. So just having a popular character out there representing people who like dudes would more than enough make up for my own personal lack of options. But I guess I can't even expect the bare minimum now adays.

7 hours ago, Parrhesia said:

Regarding feedback, I feel this is a honey-over-vinegar situation.

I think you should always be nice and never do any name calling at all (or death threats). Like I wouldn't be like, "Hey Nintendo and IS you're all *insert vulgar words here*" But I think making your voices heard is an important thing. I feel like gay guys don't want to start a fuss about anything and that's why they're not represented ever. From my life experiences lesbians are the ones who make their voices heard and that's why their representation isn't limited to one second cameos or gay best friends. That's why lesbians get main characters with names and deep relationships. Meanwhile gay dudes look at all the amazing lesbian representation and are just content that gay people are being represented. Yet I think it's lesbians being vocal playing, not all but, a huge factor in why they don't get ignored.

I'm sorry everyone for making a large ass post or if I'm being negative at all. I am still clearly upset and while talking about this is overall good, it's something that is very much still upsetting me. I hope everyone forgives me if I'm coming across as douchey.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

11 hours ago, bufkus said:

Honestly people shouldn't expect quality same-sex relationships in games from companies that don't have women or gay men in high positions.

Which is why we should call them out on their bullshit and hold them accountable when they pull some crap like this on us.

 

2 hours ago, PersonWithTime said:

I felt like Fates was a great step. So I was happy with that. It had *SHOCK* equal representation. 1 for guys and 1 for girls. It could have been better but it wasn't bad. I wasn't okay with, "Zero" because I don't want to date 40 year olds. But NoA aged him the hell down as Niles, all because of writing and casting a voice actor that sounds 20-something. Plus I think I heard that their original S-Support was basically saying something like, "Why am I cursed to like a man" or something along the lines of that. I don't know I read it briefly before feeling super uncomfortable. But basically NoA changed their S-Support to make it feel like a normal. And I'm really surprised NoA didn't see this and think about how us westerners would take the news.

I never got the impression Niles (I think Zero is a stupid name) was suppose to be 40. I agree that Fates representation could have been better, but like you said, it was equal. There was no bait and switch and the pair ending if you do said support is unequivalently romantic. I know people whined and bitched about Fates localization, but their are cases in which change rather than literal translation can be a benefit. Your S-Support change is a good example of this. We are in 2019, their are no excusses at this point. They have to be intentionally ignorant to pull something like this. Especially when you have customers all over the world.

[bufkus]

Not sure what you expect them to do. You want them to hire more women to ensure better rep? Good luck convincing IntSys to do that.

I mean I would love for it to happen. Taeko Kaneda was a pretty good scenario/director for Path of Radiance. But she retired a long time ago.

Edited July 29, 2019 by bufkus

[EJ107]

It's difficult to say how many LGBT people work there. It's quite possible that many do, but they simply don't have the go-ahead, ability or desire to expand upon the M/M supports. 

I'm quite fortunate in the company I work in, since there's a large LGBT group there including some of the quest writers (one of whom happens to be my line manager!). I've mentioned that I'd like to write some LGBT characters in the future and they seem really cool with that, so I like to think that I'd be contributing in my own small way ☺️

[Parrhesia]

Are people seriously happier with 1M/1F than 1M/3F. Honest to God question, because that seems to be the implication some people are making.

[magenero29]

3 hours ago, Parrhesia said:

Are people seriously happier with 1M/1F than 1M/3F. Honest to God question, because that seems to be the implication some people are making.

They are happier with 1M/1F because at least the number was equal and it was both options were problematic. With the 1M/3F options we get on three houses, we not only get an imbalanced between the number of M|M and F|F supports, but the reasons for that imbalance just completely ticks us off:

1- The fact that Alois and Gilbert S supports are not same sex marriage supports like Lindhardt (and you even marry a WOMAN in Alois ending) - queerbaiting to the extreme.

2- The fact that even if Alois and Gilbert were in fact options and the number of same sex supports became equal, the LGBT representation of the game would still be criticized because Alois and Gilbert are two married old men, who knew the protagonist since birth.

3- The fact that the high number of lesbian supports is most likely linked to the fetishization of lesbians. 

4- The fact that the lesbian options are more linked to the plot of the game.

etc etc

Edited July 30, 2019 by magenero29

[evoyvoy]

To add on to what the poster said. The fact that Linhardt’s support is the same regardless of Byleth’s gender shows that either IS or the localisation doesn’t really care about the mlm options. If they’re going to put in such minimal effort, there’s no reason to not include one or two more mlm options. All they had to do was change the pronouns. Someone let me know if I’m wrong, but I’m assuming the wlw options have different conversations depending on Byleth’s gender?

I’ve also heard that issue extends beyond avatar and S support with how there are paired romantic endings between female characters while paired male endings are all through subtext that sometimes lean more heavily to close friendships. (Someone who read the supports can confirm this as I haven’t gone through with it).

Gay characters and relationships have been represented through subtext since GBA games. The only explicitly gay character focused on unrequited love. Honestly, I’m tired of limiting gay relationships and the potential ones are mostly represented through subtext.

Edited July 30, 2019 by evoyvoy

[Llorona]

I could be wrong and I'll happily cop to it if I am, but there has really been nothing to point to the f/f supports being different than their m/f counterparts.

Edit: On that note, I think it's a little unfair to act like lesbians get so much good representation in general media when that's most definitely not true. There was, after all, a reason for the outcry at how many lesbians were dying in media for a while there, among other things.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Llorona

[Arachnofiend]

20 minutes ago, Llorona said:

I could be wrong and I'll happily cop to it if I am, but there has really been nothing to point to the f/f supports being different than their m/f counterparts.

Edit: On that note, I think it's a little unfair to act like lesbians get so much good representation in general media when that's most definitely not true. There was, after all, a reason for the outcry at how many lesbians were dying in media for a while there, among other things.

From what I've seen there are zero differences. I know for certain that the Edelgard support is identical between both genders.

It's honestly kind of ridiculous saying that the Fates situation was better. Y'all really gonna claim that it was better representation when the bi option was just the weird sex pervert because it was equal between genders? Fates is one of those rare instances where I would have rather had no lesbian options than the one we got.

[Death]

59 minutes ago, Parrhesia said:

Are people seriously happier with 1M/1F than 1M/3F. Honest to God question, because that seems to be the implication some people are making.

I hope that's not the case for many, though there are definitely a few out there who get hung up on this. And if I had to guess it's also partly because one male option leaves so much to be desired that everything else seems 'better'. While there may be a link between more female options and slight objectification that can be used to explain the different amounts of same-sex options (though I do believe it would take analysis of the dialogue rather than just looking at quantity), I feel that this argument is often lost in favor of a "they have more and that's bad" - type argument. 

For me, the point has never been a numbers game in the sense of one gender having more than another. That argument just strikes me as irrelevant. I want more than one person to romance, and preferably, I'd like the whole cast to be available. I don't think it's bad to make the dialogues similar regardless of gender, nor is it much more work. (Though more than anything I just want Ashe ❤️ ). 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Death

[Humanoid]

Yeaaaaah, not sure that two layers of discrimination is better than one. Would have it been better or worse than the status quo if a formerly whites-only dining establishment suddenly allowed black women in but not black men?