FE16 Same-Sex Relationship Discussion

[firewitch912]

8 minutes ago, Ygg said:

I may be stupidly optimistic here but I think the possibility of more units post time skip is fairly high. I definitely think we've seen all the characters that are available in the school phase, but it's important to remember that any info pertaining to events after Ch.10(could be a tad later than this, but Ch 10 is what I've heard) aren't allowed to be discussed by reviewers. IMO, the chances of more male options in the form of characters that only appear in the war phase are slim but not impossible. I know the extras screen shows all possible supports, but there's a small possibility it displays characters from the school phase only. Again, this could just be wishful thinking on my part.

Honestly I really hope you're right. But I'm not going to get my hopes up.

My main concern is that interview where the directors said they had everyone available from the start to form relationships with, even if you might not necessarily have them to battle with right away. If there was a point to have more characters suddenly, it would be immediately post timeskip, and we'd probably get them all at once. It would also probably need to be a sizable group, since having only a couple completely new characters that late in the game goes against what they're saying in the article. And I know reviewers have talked about how there are spoiler characters that they can't reveal, but the from the reviews I've read those characters seem to be more along the lines of Rhea and Sothis.

On the other hand, it could be oddly fitting to have 3 same sex options for both genders available pre timeskip, and then 2 others added post timeskip.

[GreyJedi]

First of all, I called this, back in February. Though, it seems I underestimated.

Second, I’m trans. Well, kind of… it’s complicated. I just don’t want to come across as some random person telling gay people how they should feel. I’m invested in this myself, just in a slightly different way.

Third: I have a basic understanding of Japanese culture, and so that informs my perspective on this; but I’m still liable to get some stuff wrong.

My take on everything: IS is trying. They don’t quite get it, though. 1) they’re mostly straight males. 2) they’re Japanese. They don’t understand what the west’s take is. All they know is people got mad at them for not having LGBT representation. So now we have what we got. As some people have pointed out, it feels like these characters are what white males think gay people should be like. That’s because the game was made by white straight males. (okay Asian straight males… who have have light skin)

Others have said that it seems like this is more so to please the yuri and yaoi fan base. I going to have to say that’s because yuri and yaoi fan base is probably where Japanese get most of their ideas as to what LGBT people are like, and what LGBT people want.

I’m not telling anyone not to be angry. In fact, you should be. People getting angry is probably why we have better LGBT representation than we got in Fates. But, I think we should be a little understanding to IS. It’s ignorance, not lack of willingness, which is why the options are underwhelming.

On Claude: I’m planning on playing as female and getting an S support with him, so I’m not as disappointed as a lot of you are about this, but I still get it. I expected him to be one of the bisexual options, and am surprised that he isn’t. BUT, there’s one thing I keep in mind: IS never said he was gay. IS never saw him as gay. We did. It’s okay to be disappointed, but I think it’s unfair to blame IS for baiting us or something like that… something which they were never trying to do. Sure, reviewers may have, but that’s not IS’s fault. What we saw, as one poster said, ‘as gay encoded DNA’ was never what IS envisioned for him. Insisting that Claude seemed gay isn’t much different than insisting on a stereotype. I think it’s unfair and unfortunate that we don’t have some young bishounen gay option, but I think it’s just as unfair to compare Claude to Soleil (if there a support convo where he blatantly starts calling the male avatar cute or something like that, I’ll eat my words).

On trans rep: Other trans people can totally disagree with me, but I feel Forest was decent representation. The other feminine male characters, like Libra, always just looked like dudes with long hair to me. Forest is different, though. Everything about him is feminine. He even has traditionally female-only class. Despite this, he still identifies as male. That entire inner tug-a-war with gender identity and roles is something that resonates with me. I suppose it might not be a bad thing to have more trans rep, but I’m happy just to be able to pick which ever gender I want my avatar to be. I’m more concerned with (and this is coming from a white person) there being options to have darker skinned avatars, and having more darker skinned characters in the games.

[magenero29]

 

16 minutes ago, GreyJedi said:

Third: I have a basic understanding of Japanese culture, and so that informs my perspective on this; but I’m still liable to get some stuff wrong.

 

 

My take on everything: IS is trying. They don’t quite get it, though. 1) they’re mostly straight males. 2) they’re Japanese. They don’t understand what the west’s take is. All they know is people got mad at them for not having LGBT representation. So now we have what we got. As some people have pointed out, it feels like these characters are what white males think gay people should be like. That’s because the game was made by white straight males. (okay Asian straight males… who have have light skin)

I would really like to know how difficult is this for them to get it?! They made a character whose musles are almost bursting through his shirt and they don't make him a gay option? Like wtf?! What about the hard gay stereotype in japanese media?

Edited July 14, 2019 by magenero29

[Integrity]

op's entire point is that they were trying, misguidedly, to not do literally that, what's your point

[magenero29]

6 minutes ago, Integrity said:

op's entire point is that they were trying, misguidedly, to not do literally that, what's your point

My point is that one of the stereotypes of the gay community in japan, besides extremely feminine guys, are guys with big muscles. So I am expressing my big suprise on the fact that they didn't make Raphael, who fits that stereotype, a same sex option.

Edited July 14, 2019 by magenero29

[0 Def Cleric]

8 minutes ago, magenero29 said:

My point is that one of the stereotypes of the gay community in japan, besides extremely feminine guys, are guys with big muscles. So I am expressing my big suprise on the fact that they didn't make Raphael, who fits that stereotype, a same sex option.

...I believe OP was attempting to say that IS is trying specifically NOT to fit the stereotypes, in order to not come off as homophobic. Therefore, even though Raphael fits, that actually would make him less likely.

[magenero29]

8 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

...I believe OP was attempting to say that IS is trying specifically NOT to fit the stereotypes, in order to not come off as homophobic. Therefore, even though Raphael fits, that actually would make him less likely.

Please point out the sentences where OP said that. Because to me the OP is saying that the characters that we got reflect what straight japanese " gay people should be like", that they get these ideas from yaoi and yuri and that what we got is what they think we want. In other words a feminine guy and two old people. One of them being a widower.

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by magenero29

[Darros]

Not everything is explicit, reading context is important, dude. Why are you complaining that IS isn't adhering to hard stereotypes? Doing that is kind of harmful, and tied to some of the backlash that Fates got.

[Integrity]

don't remind me of niles christ alive

[jack!]

41 minutes ago, GreyJedi said:

My take on everything: IS is trying. They don’t quite get it, though. 1) they’re mostly straight males. 2) they’re Japanese. They don’t understand what the west’s take is. All they know is people got mad at them for not having LGBT representation. So now we have what we got. As some people have pointed out, it feels like these characters are what white males think gay people should be like. That’s because the game was made by white straight males. (okay Asian straight males… who have have light skin)

 

Others have said that it seems like this is more so to please the yuri and yaoi fan base. I going to have to say that’s because yuri and yaoi fan base is probably where Japanese get most of their ideas as to what LGBT people are like, and what LGBT people want.

 

I’m not telling anyone not to be angry. In fact, you should be. People getting angry is probably why we have better LGBT representation than we got in Fates. But, I think we should be a little understanding to IS. It’s ignorance, not lack of willingness, which is why the options are underwhelming.

 

On Claude: I’m planning on playing as female and getting an S support with him, so I’m not as disappointed as a lot of you are about this, but I still get it. I expected him to be one of the bisexual options, and am surprised that he isn’t. BUT, there’s one thing I keep in mind: IS never said he was gay. IS never saw him as gay. We did. It’s okay to be disappointed, but I think it’s unfair to blame IS for baiting us or something like that… something which they were never trying to do. Sure, reviewers may have, but that’s not IS’s fault. What we saw, as one poster said, ‘as gay encoded DNA’ was never what IS envisioned for him. Insisting that Claude seemed gay isn’t much different than insisting on a stereotype. I think it’s unfair and unfortunate that we don’t have some young bishounen gay option, but I think it’s just as unfair to compare Claude to Soleil (if there a support convo where he blatantly starts calling the male avatar cute or something like that, I’ll eat my words).

I’ve really calmed down about it since hearing it all yesterday and am honestly not too bothered now, but this is a really solid take that dissects the situation without being dismissive of gay male’s opinions and frustrations in a really refreshing way.

Most of my frustrations are towards the reporter who was just having a little too much fun making jokes about the “bisexual energy” of the game and ended up baiting a lot of people into believing something that simply wasn’t true.

But truly, after looking at the big picture like this, I do believe IS is trying, and I look forward to seeing the supports in the game myself to form my own opinions on the matter.

Edited July 14, 2019 by jack!

[Darros]

1 minute ago, jack! said:

I’ve really calmed down about it since hearing it all yesterday and am honestly not too bothered now, but this is a really solid take that dissects the situation *without* being dismissive of gay male’s opinions and frustrations in a really refreshing way.

Most of my frustrations are towards the reporter who was just having a little too much fun making jokes about the “bisexual energy” of the game and ended up baiting a lot of people into believing something that simply wasn’t true.

But truly, after looking at the big picture like this, I do believe IS is trying, and I look forward to seeing the supports in the game myself to form my own opinions on the matter.

Yeah I really didn't like that article. I remember reading it though and seeing some stuff at the beginning which was pretty clearly virtue signalling which made me suspicious in the first place, but it was absolutely bait.

[Integrity]

that article was awful from my memory, like what the hell is 'bisexual energy' besides 'this guy looks skanky' seriously

 

EDIT: by that definition i radiate bisexual energy though, correctly 😎

Edited July 14, 2019 by Integrity

[firewitch912]

45 minutes ago, GreyJedi said:

First of all, I called this, back in February. Though, it seems I underestimated.

 

Second, I’m trans. Well, kind of… it’s complicated. I just don’t want to come across as some random person telling gay people how they should feel. I’m invested in this myself, just in a slightly different way.

 

Third: I have a basic understanding of Japanese culture, and so that informs my perspective on this; but I’m still liable to get some stuff wrong.

 

 

My take on everything: IS is trying. They don’t quite get it, though. 1) they’re mostly straight males. 2) they’re Japanese. They don’t understand what the west’s take is. All they know is people got mad at them for not having LGBT representation. So now we have what we got. As some people have pointed out, it feels like these characters are what white males think gay people should be like. That’s because the game was made by white straight males. (okay Asian straight males… who have have light skin)

 

Others have said that it seems like this is more so to please the yuri and yaoi fan base. I going to have to say that’s because yuri and yaoi fan base is probably where Japanese get most of their ideas as to what LGBT people are like, and what LGBT people want.

 

I’m not telling anyone not to be angry. In fact, you should be. People getting angry is probably why we have better LGBT representation than we got in Fates. But, I think we should be a little understanding to IS. It’s ignorance, not lack of willingness, which is why the options are underwhelming.

 

On Claude: I’m planning on playing as female and getting an S support with him, so I’m not as disappointed as a lot of you are about this, but I still get it. I expected him to be one of the bisexual options, and am surprised that he isn’t. BUT, there’s one thing I keep in mind: IS never said he was gay. IS never saw him as gay. We did. It’s okay to be disappointed, but I think it’s unfair to blame IS for baiting us or something like that… something which they were never trying to do. Sure, reviewers may have, but that’s not IS’s fault. What we saw, as one poster said, ‘as gay encoded DNA’ was never what IS envisioned for him. Insisting that Claude seemed gay isn’t much different than insisting on a stereotype. I think it’s unfair and unfortunate that we don’t have some young bishounen gay option, but I think it’s just as unfair to compare Claude to Soleil (if there a support convo where he blatantly starts calling the male avatar cute or something like that, I’ll eat my words).

 

On trans rep: Other trans people can totally disagree with me, but I feel Forest was decent representation. The other feminine male characters, like Libra, always just looked like dudes with long hair to me. Forest is different, though. Everything about him is feminine. He even has traditionally female-only class. Despite this, he still identifies as male. That entire inner tug-a-war with gender identity and roles is something that resonates with me. I suppose it might not be a bad thing to have more trans rep, but I’m happy just to be able to pick which ever gender I want my avatar to be. I’m more concerned with (and this is coming from a white person) there being options to have darker skinned avatars, and having more darker skinned characters in the games.

 

No worries, gender is honestly very messy, and

IS is trying, and I'm really glad they are! I know that some of the statements in here can come across as harsh, but for me it's because I think they have the potential and the desire to improve!

I think your piece about "gay encoded DNA" is about my statement about Claude being queer coded. The issue is that it can be difficult to distinguish it from stereotypes, which I think was your main concern. In truth, I think the queerness I see in Claude is more similar to the queer coding that we had with Ike. There's nothing there that explicitly states that either is bi/gay, but the way they interact with others provides some interpretation for an inherent queerness within those character. So queer coding may not have been the right phrase for it at first, a queer interpretation or queer reading would be more accurate for Claude when he was first introduced. However, we do have substantial evidence of Claude flirting with M!Byleth. These are all from the gaymingmag article. Despite the fact that the author purposefully wrote the article to suggest Claude was a same sex option even though he wasn't, the pictures he provides so far don't lie. Who knows, maybe they're taken wildly out of context. Also I don't think he was lying about the ability to flirt with Claude as M!Byleth. If that reporter wasn't wildly misconstruing things (beyond just whether Claude was same sex supportable), then Claude really is queer coded.

Also I'm really glad that you find trans rep in Forrest. I agree that his character has a lot going on concerning ideas about gender identity and expectations, and I hope that there may be something similar in this game.

[0 Def Cleric]

The article sorta seemed to me like it was intentionally setting gay and bi fans up for disappointment, in perhaps a malicious way. Someone being excited about gay characters is nice, but it really came off to me as "haha you gays reaaaally want this guy right? you reeealllly want him?" and dangling it in front of our noses with the full knowledge that they were lying.

[magenero29]

22 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

...I believe OP was attempting to say that IS is trying specifically NOT to fit the stereotypes, in order to not come off as homophobic. Therefore, even though Raphael fits, that actually would make him less likely.

So they make Lindharth a gay option, even though he also fits the uke design of yaoi mangas. How is trying not to fit stereotypes?

Edited July 14, 2019 by magenero29

[Integrity]

4 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

The article sorta seemed to me like it was intentionally setting gay and bi fans up for disappointment, in perhaps a malicious way.

i don't think it was malicious per se, i think it was just seeing an angle to get those clicks and reads and leaning really hard into it. indifference, not malice.

[0 Def Cleric]

2 minutes ago, magenero29 said:

So they make Lindharth a gay option, even though he also fits the uke design of yaoi mangas.

I... really don't know where you're getting this "Linhardt is super effeminate" thing. In addition, he wouldn't fit that even if he was, considering he doesn't look especially young. Sure, he's not a brawler, but he's no less masculine than, say, Seteth or Ferdinand.

[magenero29]

2 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

I... really don't know where you're getting this "Linhardt is super effeminate" thing. In addition, he wouldn't fit that even if he was, considering he doesn't look especially young. Sure, he's not a brawler, but he's no less masculine than, say, Seteth or Ferdinand.

I am not being trolled right? Because a lot of people thought Lindhardt was a girl at first. Am I the only one that thinks he looks like a mix of Midayle and Soren? Two characters that have also been confused as female by fans.

[Integrity]

midhair is effeminate, but masc coded, and i've literally never in all my years seen someone think soren was a girl. you might be in the minority here, dude.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Integrity

[Specta]

I've never heard of Soren being notably confused for female before

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, magenero29 said:

I am not being trolled right? Because a lot of people thought Lindhardt was a girl at first. Am I the only one that thinks he looks like a mix of Midayle and Soren? Two characters that have also been confused as female by fans.

People mistaking someone for a girl =/= the character actually being feminine. Linhardt's young face with round eyes and a short medieval ponytail is nowhere near, say, Leon. I'm pretty androgynous myself, and people mistake me for a man or a woman all the time. It doesn't make me either of those things. Plus, Soren? Are you being serious here?

[magenero29]

Just now, 0 Def Cleric said:

People mistaking someone for a girl =/= the character actually being feminine. Linhardt's young face with round eyes and a short medieval ponytail is nowhere near, say, Leon. I'm pretty androgynous myself, and people mistake me for a man or a woman all the time. It doesn't make me either of those things. Plus, Soren? Are you being serious here?

When there is actually a thread with a voting poll in this website about this very topic, than yes I am being serious here. https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/14749-who-thought-soren-was-a-girl/page/2/#comments

[Integrity]

3 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Linhardt's young face with round eyes and a short medieval ponytail

you finally made me twig onto it, linhardt just looks like pictures of squires and pages from all the million books on knighthood i read as a youth

 

EDIT:

1 minute ago, magenero29 said:

When there is actually a thread with a voting poll in this website about this very topic, than yes I am being serious here. https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/14749-who-thought-soren-was-a-girl/page/2/#comments

fewer than one in five respondents put in Yes, and some of those put in things like 'i also thought shinon was a girl'. i'm very hesitant to accept this as evidence that more than those thirteen people thought soren was a girl.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Integrity

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, Integrity said:

you finally made me twig onto it, linhardt just looks like pictures of squires and pages from all the million books on knighthood i read as a youth

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when I first saw him! I thought "Wow this guy's definitely gonna end up as a cavalier, with that knightly ponytail." Midir has it too due to being a less experienced knight of Jungby, I think?

 

[Integrity]

Just now, 0 Def Cleric said:

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when I first saw him! I thought "Wow this guy's definitely gonna end up as a cavalier, with that knightly ponytail." Midir has it too due to being a less experienced knight of Jungby, I think?

midhair has a bit of it too, but has a more .... reserved? face portrait that does add some non-traditionally masc elements that makes it at least reasonable to see why someone could take him entirely at face (heh) value and briefly think he's a girl before his first line puts the lie to that