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FE16 Same-Sex Relationship Discussion


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21 hours ago, Namero said:

And here I was hoping we could get a game that ditches marriage altogether... Makes sense for games where there is a second generation to strategically create like in Genealogy/Awakening/Fates, but otherwise I would rather there just be no marriage supports at all. lol

Nobody said there is marriage in the game. Marriage and romance are two completely separate things.

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8 hours ago, bufkus said:

Nobody said there is marriage in the game. Marriage and romance are two completely separate things.

Guess we won't know for sure until we actually see the S supports. S supports do have a tendency to involve characters getting married, and even if that's not the case this time, romance and marriage are in close enough correlation that they both feel equally off-putting for me, personally.

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I hope the old dudes aren't actually candidates for gay marriage as M!Byleth, how unfair can they be.

F!Byleth basically gets the top of the FE3H rule 34 list.

Edited by Bloom
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22 minutes ago, Bloom said:
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I hope the old dudes aren't actually candidates for gay marriage as M!Byleth, how unfair can they be.

F!Byleth basically gets the top of the FE3H rule 34 list.

*WWWWHHHHHEEEEEEEEEZZZE*

Such beautiful fanart XD

Unfortunately, it's pretty much confirmed that those three dudes are the only options for M!Byleth. I still stand by my opinion that if at least one of the male lords where an option, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Now that I've analyzed the situation better though, I feel like all of the lords should have been options in the first place considering that 3 out of five of the female options are super important to the plot. At least that's what I would have considered to be fair, I certainly wouldn't have ranted so hard if that where the case.

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33 minutes ago, GiveMeCuteness said:

I still stand by my opinion that if at least one of the male lords where an option, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Agreed, now I just hate Edelgard more than I originally did.

I'm a girl, but I prefer to play as male characters for obvious reasons (female characters are almost always sexualized and shit) and I think M!Byleth looks better than F... but oh well. I want to marry Dimitri so I gotta suck it up. I'll play M!Byleth and romance Lynhardt when I do BE route. xP

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So, let me get this straight: F!Byleth gets to choose between all the best girls but M!Byleth is stuck with:

  • the guy that could easily pass as a girl
  • The closeted married dude with a kid
  • someone old enough to be your grandfather

You cannot make this shit up. It's so bizarre.

Edited by Spirit in Black
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3 minutes ago, Spirit in Black said:

So, let me get this straight: F!Byleth gets to choose between all the best girls but M!Byleth is stuck with:

  • the guy that could easily pass as a girl
  • The closeted married dude with a kid
  • someone old enough to be your grandfather

You cannot make this shit up. It's so bizarre.

It's even more bizarre that people honestly don't understand how this makes people upset. "It's 3x more male options than Fates!". Like yes but IS knows the Lords are usually the most popular characters. So it just makes sense to use them as picks. Honestly you can even get away with not making them options by just picking any other student who probably has infinite more relevance than the two old options the game provides.

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Do you guys mind thinking about lesbians for five seconds? In the first place, that's not generally how lesbian relationships are seen in Japan by weirdos who are into that- it's more seen as "practice" for an actual relationship with a man. I get the disappointment here, but trying to act like it's IS entirely pandering to the otaku audience seems a little disingenuous to me. If they just wanted to appease yuri fanboys (who aren't even the majority audience of yuri) this isn't what they'd be doing. And going so far as to hate the female characters who are bi just because they're bi is a Little Wow tbh. 

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I want to agree with ya but considering how FEH is a thing that's been given out powercreep waifus like candy while leaving male characters to rot I'm somewhat sceptical. Granted I doubt FEH had anything to do with 3H it's a pretty good sign that IS panders to a certain crowd with this sorta thing...  It just feels like they did this for the guys who like yuri rather than the LGBT audience to me. 

I'm happy for the crowd who loves the female bi options available but the male bi options are ok to just ugh. Gilbert, in particular, is someone just about nobody wanted. The fact that he's even an option kinda makes it come across as the m/m selection process was very much an afterthought. I'm cool with Linhardt but the other 2 raise some flags.

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16 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Do you guys mind thinking about lesbians for five seconds? In the first place, that's not generally how lesbian relationships are seen in Japan by weirdos who are into that- it's more seen as "practice" for an actual relationship with a man. I get the disappointment here, but trying to act like it's IS entirely pandering to the otaku audience seems a little disingenuous to me. If they just wanted to appease yuri fanboys (who aren't even the majority audience of yuri) this isn't what they'd be doing. And going so far as to hate the female characters who are bi just because they're bi is a Little Wow tbh. 

Honestly, agreed, it's kind of frustrating to see. We can express disappointment for the m/m options without throwing us wlw under the bus.

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39 minutes ago, Spirit in Black said:

So, let me get this straight: F!Byleth gets to choose between all the best girls but M!Byleth is stuck with:

  • the guy that could easily pass as a girl
  • The closeted married dude with a kid
  • someone old enough to be your grandfather

You cannot make this shit up. It's so bizarre.

Don’t forget the grandfather also has a kid in the monastery who is possibly around our age (and may or may not be our student)!!

Edited by zuibangde
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2 hours ago, Bloom said:

Agreed, now I just hate Edelgard more than I originally did.

 

Now I absolutely love Edelgard, but I absolutely don't like that out of all the lords she's the only bi option because it almost sets a precedent to her being the canon path for being the one to love Byleth regardless of their gender (super fanfictiony, I know).

13 minutes ago, Vanil said:

It's even more bizarre that people honestly don't understand how this makes people upset. "It's 3x more male options than Fates!". Like yes but IS knows the Lords are usually the most popular characters. So it just makes sense to use them as picks. Honestly you can even get away with not making them options by just picking any other student who probably has infinite more relevance than the two old options the game provides.

I agree 100%. The guys feel almost like an after thought compared to the girls.

5 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Do you guys mind thinking about lesbians for five seconds? In the first place, that's not generally how lesbian relationships are seen in Japan by weirdos who are into that- it's more seen as "practice" for an actual relationship with a man. I get the disappointment here, but trying to act like it's IS entirely pandering to the otaku audience seems a little disingenuous to me. If they just wanted to appease yuri fanboys (who aren't even the majority audience of yuri) this isn't what they'd be doing. And going so far as to hate the female characters who are bi just because they're bi is a Little Wow tbh. 

That perception of lesbians in Japan is the reason why Soleil was created in the first place, and we all know how well that went. Not all of us are hating on the girls btw (I'm S-supporting Edelgard on my Black eagles playthrough), and the majority of us are stoked to have better representation than in fates. Keep in mind the contention here isn't with the female bi options (well, except for one of them that seems extremely questionable up till now), but rather how seemingly better thought out the girl options seem to be compared to the males.

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4 minutes ago, mrwanton said:

I want to agree with ya but considering how FEH is a thing that's been given out powercreep waifus like candy while leaving male characters to rot I'm somewhat sceptical. Granted I doubt FEH had anything to do with 3H it's a pretty good sign that IS panders to a certain crowd with this sorta thing...  It just feels like they did this for the guys who like yuri rather than the LGBT audience to me. 

The yuri demographic is mostly female, though. At least, creator-wise. And yeah, they're obviously favoring their male fans more in general, and I despise that; however, creating more waifus would be just as easy of a way to pander to your male demographic, if not an easier one. Hell, if you want to go that route, why not just give f!byleth all of the same supports as m!byleth? All you have to do is have Byleth revoice their lines, to rake in this huge male yuri audience that apparently exists. Never heard of any straight men being disappointed in the fact that Awakening didn't let you get it on with Tharja as f!Robin.

2 minutes ago, Llorona said:

Honestly, agreed, it's kind of frustrating to see. We can express disappointment for the m/m options without throwing us wlw under the bus.

This is really the primary point I was addressing with my previous post- people saying they hate Edelgard because of this honestly feels way, way too far to go. Hating Edelgard because of the amount of attention she's getting relative to the other lords? Ok. Hating her because she's bisexual? Hooh boy that's a can of worms. 

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27 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Do you guys mind thinking about lesbians for five seconds? In the first place, that's not generally how lesbian relationships are seen in Japan by weirdos who are into that- it's more seen as "practice" for an actual relationship with a man. I get the disappointment here, but trying to act like it's IS entirely pandering to the otaku audience seems a little disingenuous to me. If they just wanted to appease yuri fanboys (who aren't even the majority audience of yuri) this isn't what they'd be doing. And going so far as to hate the female characters who are bi just because they're bi is a Little Wow tbh. 

I was thinking about this earlier trying to come up with reasons why neither male lord is romanceable by M!Byleth. And I think it probably doesn't help that nobody takes lesbian relationships seriously, while any male-on-male relationship means the men involved are Gay, forever and unquestionably.

Literally IS might have worried that making Claude or Dimitri bi would "ruin" them for their straight fans, or cast some shadow on their characters that wasn't intended. And that's why only risk-free weirdos got that option on the male side, whereas every key female character in the game is bi like it's going out of style. I think there's biphobia and lesbiphobia to go around here.

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40 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Do you guys mind thinking about lesbians for five seconds? In the first place, that's not generally how lesbian relationships are seen in Japan by weirdos who are into that- it's more seen as "practice" for an actual relationship with a man. I get the disappointment here, but trying to act like it's IS entirely pandering to the otaku audience seems a little disingenuous to me. If they just wanted to appease yuri fanboys (who aren't even the majority audience of yuri) this isn't what they'd be doing. And going so far as to hate the female characters who are bi just because they're bi is a Little Wow tbh. 

I agree with what you said but I’d like to add that what you’ve said is exactly why people are upset. The wlw options are catered towards multiple demographics like yuri fans, straight men that fetishises lesbian relationships, loli fans, people that like ‘older’ women, people that like more dominant women etc. Some of these choices also fulfil multiple ‘roles’ simultaneously. It definitely feels like there’s a lot of thought behind who got chosen as wlw options.

Mlm on the other hand is catered towards such a small minority (people that likes daddies and feminine looking men) within a group that is already a minority that it just feels like they probably came to the decision of the 3 options in 5 minutes and decided to just roll with it.

On the other hand, part of me thinks they were thinking ‘who CAN’T we make bi’ when deciding the mlm options and they ruled out a lot of the younger and masculine characters.

Edited by zuibangde
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1 minute ago, Lynsanity said:

I was thinking about this earlier trying to come up with reasons why neither male lord is romanceable by M!Byleth. And I think it probably doesn't help that nobody takes lesbian relationships seriously, while any male-on-male relationship means the men involved are Gay, forever and unquestionably.

Literally IS might have worried that making Claude or Dimitri bi would "ruin" them for their straight fans, or cast some shadow on their characters that wasn't intended. And that's why only risk-free weirdos got that option on the male side, whereas every key female character in the game is bi like it's going out of style. I think there's biphobia and lesbiphobia to go around here.

As depressing as that is.... that's probably right, isn't it. It's risk-free to cater to lesbians and straight men both that way. Whereas straight women who aren't yaoi fans massively outnumber straight women who are, which would make them considered more important... Man. Gotta love the Class S stereotype, lmao. 

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2 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Why do the girls get more LGBTQ options than the guys?

That's what we've been discussing for the past 15 pages, generally speaking. Lynsanity's recent post (with a bit of relevant knowledge of Class S romance in Japanese media) explains it pretty well, as unfortunate as it is. 

 

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3 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

As depressing as that is.... that's probably right, isn't it. It's risk-free to cater to lesbians and straight men both that way. Whereas straight women who aren't yaoi fans massively outnumber straight women who are, which would make them considered more important... Man. Gotta love the Class S stereotype, lmao. 

I mean yeah this train of thought would explain the LGBT representation in this series up to this point: Niles was a criminal, Rhajat is crazy, Leon never got to be with the person he loved, Raven/Lucius and Ike/Soren is a can of worms I better not open. Heather and Soleil are treated like jokes by the writers in comparison. 

If Claude and Dimitri were bi options I can see them getting a lot of crap even if I think all 3 lords shoulda been bi options just to make it fair. Especially considering males get a smaller pool for no reason.

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I'm still confused why people say Linhardt is feminine. Aside from his Hair, there is nothing particularly feminine about him that other males that are considered masculine don't have.

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1 hour ago, Spirit in Black said:

So, let me get this straight: F!Byleth gets to choose between all the best girls but M!Byleth is stuck with:

  • the guy that could easily pass as a girl

You cannot make this shit up. It's so bizarre.

The weirder thing is that if they really wanted a feminine guy option, wouldn't Ignatz have been a better option ? 

Which would make three potential gay/bi options for Golden Deer that are totally straight. I really don't get it.

And obviously, they're likely gay only for Byleth. So, I doubt we'll see Alois X Gilbert, for example (or Edelgard X Rhea/Dorothy for that matter).

Edited by Tamanoir
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On 7/13/2019 at 6:33 PM, magenero29 said:

I would really like to know how difficult is this for them to get it?! They made a character whose musles are almost bursting through his shirt and they don't make him a gay option? Like wtf?! What about the hard gay stereotype in japanese media?

I think you make a lot of good points. Sorry, I don't have time to respond to all of them, but I wanted to say a few things.

1) I’m a fellow Raphael fan and he deserves more respect and love. I’m sorry you’re not getting what you want for him, though.

2) As a result reading the thread you linked, I am now aware that Janaff is male. My mind is blown. I thought he was an old woman this entire time (I only played RD, not PoR, so this so my confusion is a little justified. I think.)

3) I stand by my sentiment about giving IS the benefit of the doubt; but the male options don’t make sense to me any more than anyone else. I can go round and round speculating why they chose how they did, but I don’t think it’s useful. I'm interested to see what will be in the support conversations, however.

4) Here in the US, we have the LGBT rights movement going strong and even have a married homosexual man running for president, yet we still have people (even well-intended) who don’t get it. How do we expect people from a country where everything LGBT related is mostly an underground thing to understand so easily? In any sort of social issue, people tend not to understand problems that aren’t their own until they stop and force themselves to really look at the issue; and ask themselves, ‘What am I missing here that these people are so passionate about? Is it really that unfair?’ It’s unfortunate, but most don’t ask themselves that question. Usually we only ask ourselves that when we’ve been been the subject of unfairness ourselves; and even then sometimes we don’t.

On 7/13/2019 at 6:58 PM, jack! said:

I’ve really calmed down about it since hearing it all yesterday and am honestly not too bothered now, but this is a really solid take that dissects the situation without being dismissive of gay male’s opinions and frustrations in a really refreshing way.

Most of my frustrations are towards the reporter who was just having a little too much fun making jokes about the “bisexual energy” of the game and ended up baiting a lot of people into believing something that simply wasn’t true.

But truly, after looking at the big picture like this, I do believe IS is trying, and I look forward to seeing the supports in the game myself to form my own opinions on the matter.

Thank-you, and yes, I blame the gayming article for most of the drama around Claude in particular (admittedly, I still haven't actually read said article, but I don’t think I need to at this point).

 

On 7/13/2019 at 7:03 PM, firewitch912 said:

No worries, gender is honestly very messy, and

IS is trying, and I'm really glad they are! I know that some of the statements in here can come across as harsh, but for me it's because I think they have the potential and the desire to improve!

I think your piece about "gay encoded DNA" is about my statement about Claude being queer coded. The issue is that it can be difficult to distinguish it from stereotypes, which I think was your main concern. In truth, I think the queerness I see in Claude is more similar to the queer coding that we had with Ike. There's nothing there that explicitly states that either is bi/gay, but the way they interact with others provides some interpretation for an inherent queerness within those character. So queer coding may not have been the right phrase for it at first, a queer interpretation or queer reading would be more accurate for Claude when he was first introduced. However, we do have substantial evidence of Claude flirting with M!Byleth. These are all from the gaymingmag article. Despite the fact that the author purposefully wrote the article to suggest Claude was a same sex option even though he wasn't, the pictures he provides so far don't lie. Who knows, maybe they're taken wildly out of context. Also I don't think he was lying about the ability to flirt with Claude as M!Byleth. If that reporter wasn't wildly misconstruing things (beyond just whether Claude was same sex supportable), then Claude really is queer coded.

Thank-you. It was probably your post I was referring too. I wanted to quote individual people at first, but I didn't want to comb through ten pages a second time. My spoon and fork are ready (to eat my words)... but I need to ask: is the flirting something that can happen with every character, regardless as to which gender you choose? That's what I was presuming, considering the whole tea party thing.

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A lot of this thread's complaints seem to boil down to 'I do not personally want to fuck the same-sex male options'.

A lot of assumptions are being made about peoples' personalities. How much information do we have on these people? A portrait, a blurb and a handful of lines?

Echoing what's been stated about 'let's not turn this into an Edelgard hatejerk'.

Unless it's terribly mishandled - which, hey, we'll see - this represents a huge step forward for the series. In large part because everything pre-FE15 was a trainwreck, to be fair.

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