FE16 Same-Sex Relationship Discussion

[firewitch912]

5 minutes ago, aaronarium said:

My two cents:

- It is bogus for WLW to get more attention than MLM

- It is tone-deaf for the writers to code Claude as LGBT as they did and have him not be a same-sex option. Though it remains to be seen if this a result of Claude's original writing or his English characterization.

- It's fair to not be happy with the choice of the three MLM they did include. But let's be sure to keep in mind that these feelings are mostly opinion-based. I personally think that it's an eclectic trio and that Alois and Gilbert aren't as similar as some people are saying, but I respect people feeling otherwise.

- As legitimate as the issues with how IS implemented same sex marriage are, let's be sure to assess which arguments we want to make and try to avoid any bad-faith arguments and assumptions, especially when we have so little to go on. If something like a dev interview comes out and they try to hem and haw around the issue of same sex marriage then yeah, that's totally scornworthy. But for now we should think about what arguments we're making so our optics are better if this turns into a bigger thing.

-yes but as nyainou as pointed out that's just how pandering to the straight male goes

-Given that the translations appear to be very faithful to the original in most cases (barring a couple titles here and there) I'm not sure they would suddenly deviate in this one particular case. Also, as I noted above, Claude's queercoding goes beyond his flirting and speaking, it's in his body language and the way that he acts

-I think the issue that people bring with Alois and Gilbert is that they both fill the role of an older male/"daddy" (quite literally it appears). That and we really have very little to go on for Gilbert. It seems that they gave us some random character whose barely important

-the concern about reason/excuses is entirely hypothetical. I make no judgement against IS for something that we have no proof of. That doesn't

3 minutes ago, FeatheredDragon said:

I think you’re really overthinking this. Whether or not if they’re queercoded, it doesn’t matter what you see in them. No one is as flirty or as bold as Claude, and because it seems like he’s just toying with you and has no interest in men, you claim it as queerbaiting. I see it as part of his character and a greater narrative that could be developed over the course of the story. I’m sad that we can’t smooch him as well, but I want to see what they do with him.

Once again, the queercoding has existed since before the flirting. You and I aren't the only ones who see it, even straight men have said that they could see it. And I can separate my feelings about him from the actual evidence we have. I literally have a degree about gender and queer theory, I do know what I'm talking about.

Just now, nyainou said:

I wish that, we as a fanbase, had a good, effective way to speak up on our feelings about this. I'm always thinking about making an open-letter or something. I don't want to seem like the raging gay idiot and make the LGBT FE fans seem stupid, but I feel like we have a right to make our thoughts and opinions known. And.. I just really want something to come out of that expression. This whole thread is more or less a rehash of what we went through when Fates released, at least in terms of emotion and opinions. How much of that was heard by IS and Nintendo? Was something even accomplished? I don't know. Its a huge bummer. Not just in this specific case but.. in the scenario of being a passionate fan who really loves something, only for the devs to completely disregard your thoughts. And as I've said, obviously we're not entitled to anything. I know this. But I strongly believe fan input of any kind has value. Maybe that just means.. they've heard us, and they don't care. I don't know. 

I really feel you on this. The only thing I know that changed for fates was something about Soleil being converted from a lesbian but I'm not sure how that actually turned out. We're allowed to be disappointed and angry about this, and we're allowed to critique the game. I'm just not sure how to get in contact with IS. Or if we should wait until the game actually comes out. Please let me know if you do start a letter though.

[Kyza]

For Linhardt I understand, I'm not really attracted to him but that could change after the time skip, especially if he either A. Gets a haircut or B. Let's his hair down and pulls off the 'Soren' look. Both Alois and Gilbert though were very unexpected but I actually am pretty happy with the inclusion of Alois, he's very much my type, I just hope the writing for the S support makes sense and Byleth doesn't become some kind of homewrecker with daddy issues. Gilbert on the other hand was a bit of a disappointment for me since I would've vastly preferred Claude over him and it would've made a lot more sense but eh, it is what it is I suppose. At this point I just hope the writing for the supports is good and who knows, maybe there will be more S supports included in DLC or in an update. It's hard to say... 

 

 

 

My dreams for Ashe were quickly dashed but not Caspar too~ TT.TT

[0 Def Cleric]

Wow, this is really disappointing! I'm on the younger end so it's really nice to be able to have more than one choice that's around my age group (notwithstanding the fact that anime characters are never in their late 20s for some reason), and the fact that gay men only get one option in the same vein is kind of extremely messed up!

In regards to Sothis though:

Spoiler

If leaks are to be believed she ages up in a big way post timeskip, so she's probably not lolibait. If anything i think weirdos who are into that might be sorely disappointed.

 I never thought Linhardt was a woman, and he seems to just be... a normal dude? Not a camp stereotype, just a bookworm. So I can't honestly say I get the commotion there, though I agree it would be a good deal nicer to have someone who was more of a rough and tumble type like Caspar in addition to him. Basically, I'm super excited for myself, but also outraged at intsys that gay men don't get to share in the euphoria.

[timon]

Alois is a bit sickening tbh, with wife and kid, I was hoping he wasn't S rankable at all, and now you tell me that even M!Byleth can wtf.
Gilbert is a bit weird if the rumour of him being Annette's father is true (what happens when you have to kill her in other routes?).

That said the choice is very bad, I can understand the sadness, but I don't get the "hints" that Claude is supposedly bi? I've seen my fair share of previews and videos, and he always seems joyful and charming, but I'd stop there, I think people might be seeing what they want to see here.

[ayahitaisyou]

I don't get why people are so sure about same-sex romance in FE3H when it is not out yet.

S support does not really mean romance. It usually does but not always in FE series. FE7 and FE8 both have friendship pair ending. And A+ support is a specific feature in Fate.

As for same-sex romance, we have to recognize there is definitely possible for IS which is come from a not so LGBT friendly country to make same-sex romance options stay at Fate's scale. That would be frustrate, but highly possible for me.

Spoiler

So, in fact, I am not convinced that Alois, Gilbert, Rhea, Sothis and even Edelgard have same-sex S support means they will have LGBT romance with Byleth.

For Alois and Gilbert, maybe it is about the Knights of Seiros or mercenaries. And for Rhea, Sothis and Edelgard, they are all crucial characters about Seiros and Nemesis, so it is not surprised to have an storyline based pair ending between Byleth and them.
Only Mercedes and Dorothea more look like same-sex romance options for now to me.

 

[HappyHawlucha.]

I will only accept the Alois thing if most of his supports with Byleth are post timeskip and dedicated to him confiding in Byleth and eventually learning to love again after losing his wife and potentially daughter. That could be very sweet if done correctly but if not it could end up being quite insensitive.

Edited July 13, 2019 by HappyHawlucha.

[EJ107]

3 hours ago, zuibangde said:

Heck, if they only said there are two options and it's Alois and Linhardt, I'd think people would be less upset. Right now people are disappointed at the imbalance between males and females AND the questionable choice(s) for mlm.

This is a really good point, and it's true for me, at least. 

If we were told in reviews that there were 2 mlm options we would have guessed it was those 2, since they'd both been hinted or confirmed by Thanni, and I would have accepted that. 

Being told that there was a third option got everyone's hopes up, and made everyone excited to find out who it was. And then it was revealed to be one of the oldest and least appealing characters in the cast for most people. 

If it turns out that he's only an option for M!Byleth and that's part of his story I'll give him more of a pass. But they really should have gone for a second student.

Edited July 13, 2019 by EJ107

[Druplesnubb]

Can we please stop with the "Claude must be bi because he looks and acts a certain way" bullshit.

[Azz]

53 minutes ago, timon said:

That said the choice is very bad, I can understand the sadness, but I don't get the "hints" that Claude is supposedly bi? I've seen my fair share of previews and videos, and he always seems joyful and charming, but I'd stop there, I think people might be seeing what they want to see here.

An article from gayming I believe heavily hinted at Claude being bi in their article and thus many people latched onto the idea of Claude being a same sex option.

Looking back on the article now, the writer is very vague however they feature Claude very prominently so it makes sense as to why people would think that he is an option.

[Cysx]

Well, assuming Claude really is out, that's bad news. Now I feel bad for misleading people, and angry at this article for leading me into misleading people. Even now re-reading through it it clearly wasn't just my imagination there.

[Azz]

Just now, Cysx said:

Well, assuming Claude really is out, that's bad news. Now I feel bad for misleading people, and angry at this article for leading me into misleading people. Even now re-reading through it it clearly wasn't just my imagination there.

Same. The article very heavily features Claude and pretty much confirms it but it seems they were referring to how flirty his dialogue seems I guess.

[Humanoid]

Poor Gilbert, everyone's ragging on him. While I almost certainly wouldn't play gay M Byleth (and I generally play male about 1/3rd of the time), I'd totally have him over both Linhardt and Alois easily if I had to choose. And this would also apply if I were playing F Byleth and they were hypothetically the only three options. I definitely feel the lack of variety, but I don't like how so many are suggesting simply removing Gilbert would be the best option to address it.

On the flipside, if I were playing F Byleth I think that Rhea would be the only live option for me. I get the complaint that all the options are far more conventionally attractive, but I don't think I'd go that way because of the whole student dynamic. Unless, of course, it was possible to play a manipulative power-hungry Byleth (of either sex) who seeks marriage for status, in which case it'd be insane to turn down the Empress of the land. 😉

[HappyHawlucha.]

The question is; on my M!Byleth playthrough; do I marry Annette when she glows up post timeskip? Or marry Gilbert and become her step-dad?

[NegativeExponents-]

I just hope at this point that someone gets on making a Gay 3 Houses mod sooner rather than later. The Gay Fates mod was fantastic especially since it even added non-corrin supports for the corrinsexuals.

3 minutes ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

The question is; on my M!Byleth playthrough; do I marry Annette when she glows up post timeskip? Or marry Gilbert and become her step-dad?

Go Gilbert to experience the Annete "Did you fuck my Dad?" meme firsthand.

[Rose482]

47 minutes ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

The question is; on my M!Byleth playthrough; do I marry Annette when she glows up post timeskip? Or marry Gilbert and become her step-dad?

....Why not both? 😛

[zuibangde]

53 minutes ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

The question is; on my M!Byleth playthrough; do I marry Annette when she glows up post timeskip? Or marry Gilbert and become her step-dad?

Go Gilbert so you can satisfy the fantasy of marrying someone 30+ years older than you and then potentially become the stepdad of someone around your age. Bonus points if you're in BE or GD and the game forces you to fight her after becoming her stepdad.

All jokes aside, I'd wait to see the quality of supports first. Who knows, maybe Gilbert will become the best written gay character in the history of FE (doubt). 

[Modern]

Well this is surprisingly refreshing. My fear was that the game was going to go the pandering route of making the obviously hot students bi. I can understand why everyone's upset but to me the idea of romancing your students seems a bit gross (post-timeskip is still a bit iffy with me but more acceptable) so seeing them go for making less conventionally-attractive adult men as the gay options is pretty good. That's the sort of genuine diversity I was hoping for considering it's an even rarer sight to see in general. If their supports are well-written then god damn I'll be quite happy. Linhardt is cute too though. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Modern

[evoyvoy]

38 minutes ago, Modern said:

Well this is surprisingly refreshing. My fear was that the game was going to go the pandering route of making the obviously hot students bi. I can understand why everyone's upset but to me the idea of romancing your students seems a bit gross (post-timeskip is still a bit iffy with me but more acceptable) so seeing them go for making less conventionally-attractive adult men as the gay options is pretty good. That's the sort of genuine diversity I was hoping for considering it's an even rarer sight to see in general. If their supports are well-written then god damn I'll be quite happy. Linhardt is cute too though. 

I'm glad that at least someone is positive about the options but I have to disagree with what you said about 'pandering' and 'genuine diversity'. First, the game already went the pandering route with the wlw options as they satisfy both actual lesbians/bi girls and straight men (I'd argue especially straight men). The fact that they aren't willing to do the same for mlm options feels like a double standard.

For diversity, it almost feels like IS is being too afraid to make a young, masculine character bi. Of the handful of bi/gay characters since Awakening, there is not a single character that can be considered as a young alpha male. I'd say Leon, Niles and Linhardt leans toward the slightly feminine side with how they look and the way they act. In TH, they included two more masculine options but the fact that both are older men and have pre-established families sends a very weird message. Even when they increased the amount of bi men, they still manage to avoid a very specific type of character that is the most popular among gay/bi men (and also straight women). Literally, any of Felix/Sylvain/Dimitri/Claude/Caspar/Raphael etc. can potentially fulfil that spot but nope, IS decides that gay men want a feminine looking student and two daddies with children. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by evoyvoy

[Modern]

14 minutes ago, evoyvoy said:

I'm glad that at least someone is positive about the options but I have to disagree with what you said about 'pandering' and 'genuine diversity'. First, the game already went the pandering route with the wlw options as they satisfy both actual lesbians/bi girls and straight men (I'd argue especially straight men). The fact that they aren't willing to do the same for mlm options feels like a double standard.

For diversity, it almost feels like IS is being too afraid to make a young, masculine character bi. Of the handful of bi/gay characters since Awakening, there is not a single character that can be considered as a young alpha male. I'd say Leon, Niles and Linhardt leans toward the slightly feminine side with how they look and the way they act. In TH, they included two more masculine options but the fact that both are older men and have pre-established families sends a very weird message. Even when they increased the amount of bi men, they still manage to avoid a very specific type of character that is the most popular among gay/bi men (and also straight women). Literally, any of Felix/Sylvain/Dimitri/Claude/Caspar/Raphael etc. can potentially fulfil that spot but nope, IS decides that gay men want a feminine looking student and two daddies with children. 

I can see what you're saying and I do understand why so many people are upset over the choices, but I'm personally happy with them and think overall it's a good step in the right direction. I'm not sure what you mean with the insinuation that the female love options cater especially to straight men, though that might just be because my friend is quite happy with the amount of variety in the female choices for her to pick (Rhea and Sothis in particular, which surprised me, especially Rhea since I was wondering if the game was going to be a bit more... Conservative with her considering her ties to religion in the game?). I'll admit I'm a bit jealous there though since god, Raphael checks all the boxes for me aside from being younger than Byleth 

I wish the choices were equal for both sides, that I do agree feels a bit like a double-standard on their part, and while I do see what you mean with the lack of a young alpha male-like character as a gay option being a shame I personally feel like Linhardt seems like a good choice as is in terms of being a bisexual student. In terms of Alois and Gil's status though I'm almost certain it'll make a lot more sense why they're bi options when we actually get the game and see how the story unfolds in relation to their characters. While I believe everyone's complaints here are valid, as a gay man I'm just happy to see two gay reps that are unconventional, it feels a lot more natural in a sense since they didn't seem like the types to be "obviously gay" if that makes any sense. I'm more than intrigued to see how IS handle their supports, who knows, they might turn out to have the best gay representation in the series up till this point. If this marks progress that IS will go forward with including more diverse queer representation in their future titles I'm completely for it.

 

Also, just a bit off-topic here but do we actually know if Claude can S rank female Byleth at all?

Edited July 13, 2019 by Modern

[FrostyFireMage]

Fire Emblem: where you can have attractive young men marry their "not really" siblings and "legal" dragon girls but not each other

[evoyvoy]

18 minutes ago, Modern said:

I can see what you're saying and I do understand why so many people are upset over the choices, but I'm personally happy with them and think overall it's a good step in the right direction. I'm not sure what you mean with the insinuation that the female love options cater especially to straight men that might just be because my friend is quite happy with the amount of variety in the female choices for her to pick (Rhea and Sothis in particular, which surprised me, especially Rhea since I was wondering if the game was going to be a bit more... Conservative with her considering her ties to religion in the game?). 

I wish the choices were equal for both sides, that I do agree feels a bit like a double-standard on their part, and while I do see what you mean with the lack of a young alpha male-like character as a gay option being a shame I personally feel like Linhardt seems like a good choice as is in terms of being a bisexual student. In terms of Alois and Gil's status though I'm almost certain it'll make a lot more sense why they're bi options when we actually get the game and see how the story unfolds in relation to their characters. While I believe everyone's complaints here are valid, as a gay man I'm just happy to see two gay reps that are unconventional, it feels a lot more natural in a sense since they didn't seem like the types to be "obviously gay" if that makes any sense. I'm more than intrigued to see how IS handle their supports, who knows, they might turn out to have the best gay representation in the series up till this point. If this marks progress that IS will go forward with including more diverse queer representation in their future titles I'm completely for it.

 

Also, just a bit off-topic here but do we know if Claude can S rank female Byleth at all?

I agree it's a step towards the right direction but when it feels like wlw made a giant step forward, I think many expected mlm to be similar...but in reality, it kinda just took a small step forward in comparison which feels like a slap to the face.

 In terms of female options catering to the straight male audience, I definitely know straight men in real life that have a weird and problematic fantasy of seeing lesbian relationships. When 3 of the most popular female students in the game are wlw options and someone that historically attracts a very controversial and specific demographic dominated by straight men is also an option, one can't help but feel the wlw options were chosen with straight men's preferences in mind. The fact that 3 wlw options are plot relevant while mlm gets a whopping 0 is also another disappointment to many.

I hope you'll be right in that the supports will be high quality and can explain their sexuality (especially Gilbert and Alois) in a way that doesn't completely dominate their personality and dismiss their previous relationship as something casual. But seeing how they're willing to make Claude hardcore flirt with M!Byleth but keeping him straight made people a lot more pessimistic I think.

I believe the person that leaked the same sex options have said that F!Byleth can S rank Claude.

Edited July 13, 2019 by evoyvoy

[Etrurian emperor]

12 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Wich is like saying that One Piece marine does not use guns because 4kids censored them. I'll stop before i start offending the United States.

Its a teensy bit different. The 4kids version of One Piece is widely seen as a strange mutation that should be ignored but the western version of Paper Mario is the default one, the one most people will get their hands on. 

And my point wasn't really that Vivian isn't a good example of a trans character but that she isn't an example of a positive portrayal of a trans character because Nintendo evidently regretted making her one and acted as if they were ashamed of it. In game she seems positively portrayed(in the Japanese version) but a company getting cold feet and removing the trans aspect of a trans character is....very offensive actually. If Vivian being a trans character was a step forward then Vivian no longer being a trans character was five steps backwards. What I'm arguing is that Vivian can't count as a positive trans character because the act of erasing that part of her personality for most players is inherently negative. 

[Modern]

14 minutes ago, evoyvoy said:

I agree it's a step towards the right direction but when it feels like wlw made a giant step forward, I think many expected mlm to be similar...but in reality, it kinda just took a small step forward in comparison which was a disappointment. In terms of female options catering to the straight male audience, I definitely know straight men in real life that have a weird and problematic fantasy of seeing lesbian relationships. When 3 of the most popular female students in the game are wlw options and someone that historically attracts a very controversial and specific demographic dominated by straight men is also an option, one can't help but feel the wlw options were chosen with straight men's preferences in mind. The fact that 3 wlw options are plot relevant while mlm gets a whopping 0 is also another disappointment to many.

I hope you'll be right in that the supports will be high quality and can explain their sexuality (especially Gilbert and Alois) in a way that doesn't completely dominate their personality and dismiss their previous relationship as something casual. But seeing how they're willing to make Claude hardcore flirt with M!Byleth but keeping him straight made people a lot more pessimistic I think.

I believe the person that leaked the same sex options have said that F!Byleth can S rank Claude.

Fair enough. I can see the reasons to be disappointed and your justification for the way you feel towards the wlw choices, though I don't really get the same vibe from them as others. I do have to disagree though, I feel like the mlm options are a much bigger step forward both for the series and for queer representation in general since I can count perhaps on one hand over the past few years the amount of times we've seen games have actual queer grown men that weren't exaggerated or treated like the butt of some kind of joke. I understand though that this is just my personal preferences, but for me I was expecting another 1 or 2 queer options for this game in general with them obviously going to the "hottest" characters, so my excitement comes more from seeing how IS plan on handling mature gay relationships. If it's done well I think it'll be a surprisingly big step for the series since being able to write queer characters without the typical tropes that come with most of the other supports in the series between younger characters will show some genuine maturity in the way IS does its writing. While I love Leon and Niles and do like how progressive the series was with their characters, to me it felt like they were treated as somewhat different in terms of handling solely because they were bi/gay. Alois and Gilbert don't give off the same sort of vibes at all to me, which I think is a great thing because I love seeing characters who you wouldn't even know whether they're gay or not because they're just ordinary people like the rest of us, if that makes any sense.

Then again it's entirely possible it won't work. After Fates I don't want to get my hopes up too high, but to me this marks a hell of a lot of potential for queer characters in the series, and I hope IS only continue to learn and move forward with this.

Ah, is that so? I personally want to take it with a grain of salt since people have said before they're avoiding giving details due to spoilers. Would there be as big of an issue if Claude was found out to not have S supports with either gender Byleth due to story reasons? 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Modern

[FeatheredDragon]

3 minutes ago, evoyvoy said:

I agree it's a step towards the right direction but when it feels like wlw made a giant step forward, I think many expected mlm to be similar...but in reality, it kinda just took a small step forward in comparison which was a disappointment. In terms of female options catering to the straight male audience, I definitely know straight men in real life that have a weird and problematic fantasy of seeing lesbian relationships. When 3 of the most popular female students in the game are wlw options and someone that historically attracts a very controversial and specific demographic dominated by straight men is also an option, one can't help but feel the wlw options were chosen with straight men's preferences in mind. The fact that 3 wlw options are plot relevant while mlm gets a whopping 0 is also another disappointment to many.

I hope you'll be right in that the supports will be high quality and can explain their sexuality (especially Gilbert and Alois) in a way that doesn't completely dominate their personality and dismiss their previous relationship as something casual. But seeing how they're willing to make Claude hardcore flirt with M!Byleth but keeping him straight made people a lot more pessimistic I think.

I believe the person that leaked the same sex options have said that F!Byleth can S rank Claude.

I wouldn’t agree that the wlw supports are catering to men, any more than that they’re lesbian relationships and a chunk of straight men like that. Who would you throw into the wlw supports, because I don’t really see anything that fixes that issue. If you make it more teachers, well you run the risk of having the exact same problem the mlm supports are having.

 

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its a teensy bit different. The 4kids version of One Piece is widely seen as a strange mutation that should be ignored but the western version of Paper Mario is the default one, the one most people will get their hands on. 

And my point wasn't really that Vivian isn't a good example of a trans character but that she isn't an example of a positive portrayal of a trans character because Nintendo evidently regretted making her one and acted as if they were ashamed of it. In game she seems positively portrayed(in the Japanese version) but a company getting cold feet and removing the trans aspect of a trans character is....very offensive actually. If Vivian being a trans character was a step forward then Vivian no longer being a trans character was five steps backwards. What I'm arguing is that Vivian can't count as a positive trans character because the act of erasing that part of her personality for most players is inherently negative. 

I wouldn’t argue it’s such a big deal, and I doubt the translators, especially back then, felt that either. Yes more representation is sorely needed and very important, but saying they regretted it and got cold feet when we have little information for the reason for this change, is overreacting.

[gone]

People seem to forget that Fire Emblem at it's core is a turn-based strategy RPG. Since Awakening & Fates pushed this whole idea to romance everyone & everything, appearently we now need standards for this whole romance stuff, which imo is just another feature to sell the game. The day IS really thinks about making this whole romance & dating stuff a  core feature, we can stop calling  it Fire Emblem. This is not what Fire Emblem is about, maybe IGN will make you believe this crap but it's really not.

I personally have no interest in romancing a fictional character. This is also the reason I don't care for an Avatar (selling feature).

Reading through this thread just proves my criticsm towards modern FE. This subject will never be done right (unless you find the likes of Niles & Leon a genuine representataion of gay people and even than I find most S supports terrible & cringy) , like now there are 8 options in this game and people still are whining about it.