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FE16 Same-Sex Relationship Discussion


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9 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its a teensy bit different. The 4kids version of One Piece is widely seen as a strange mutation that should be ignored but the western version of Paper Mario is the default one, the one most people will get their hands on. 

And my point wasn't really that Vivian isn't a good example of a trans character but that she isn't an example of a positive portrayal of a trans character because Nintendo evidently regretted making her one and acted as if they were ashamed of it. In game she seems positively portrayed(in the Japanese version) but a company getting cold feet and removing the trans aspect of a trans character is....very offensive actually. If Vivian being a trans character was a step forward then Vivian no longer being a trans character was five steps backwards. What I'm arguing is that Vivian can't count as a positive trans character because the act of erasing that part of her personality for most players is inherently negative. 

I think you are misunderstanding the situation here. There is a long, long, looong history of LGBT characters in Japanese works of media being censored or altered for overseas release, especially in the USA. Both Japan and the USA have plenty of issues involving LGBT people that go back ages, but in the US in particular the mere existence of an LGBT character in a work of fiction, especially a work of fiction that's generally viewed as family friendly or kid oriented, has had the potential to spark massive outrage and boycotts. When the English Sailor Moon dub changed lesbians to cousins, it wasn't because the original creators were "ashamed" of them.

Now, that doesn't mean I particularly like it when this happens. I'm a transgender woman and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door is one of my favorite games of all time. I would have absolutely loved it if the people who made the localization decisions for the game had said "screw it, who cares if we piss off some parents, keeping this in is the right thing to do", yet sadly that's not what happened. I didn't learn Vivian was trans till years later, and it pissed me off that she got removed from the US version.

But the people who made the decision to censor Vivian being trans in some localizations were not the same people who wrote her as trans, and it's bizarre to assume that the decision was made because Nintendo as a whole was somehow ashamed of the character, when the more obvious answer is simply that some people in the company didn't want to rock the boat and cause controversy.

And Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door was released back in 2004. That's 15 years ago. A lot has changed since then, and while things aren't exactly great for LGBT people in the US, the number of LGBT characters depicted in media is increasing, and LGBT characters in works of media from other countries are far less likely to be altered or censored now. Heck, a trans woman managed to survive localization in a freaking POKEMON game. Now admittedly she was just a minor NPC, not a major party member like Vivian, but I'd bet good money that back in 2004 Nintendo of America would not have even allowed a minor transgender NPC to get through localization unscathed. Time are changing, and while given Intelligent Systems has kind of a shaky track record with LGBT characters I'm not exactly gonna be holding my breath waiting for some good trans representation, there's also no reason to think it's impossible for it to happen, or that Nintendo will automatically censor it for the US release if it does.

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To everyone dismissing the complaints as overreaction or whining: imagine if there was just one character for each sex that was exclusively gay. Only male Byleth could S support Dimitri, and only female Byleth could S support Petra. Now imagine the shitstorm that would ensue despite this miniscule portion of the cast being same-sex exclusive. And yet, no one is even asking for that because of course the straight fans must be pandered to, but when queer fans want more than a few bisexual options (not even exclusively gay) with popular characters, people are very quick to dismiss that as entitlement, when really it's asking for little more than the bare minimum.

I still think there's a possibility that there's two more male options that are only recruitable post skip, and thus aren't shown on the main menu until they're recruited, to bring the total to 5 just like with the women.

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10 minutes ago, fOrEiGn sOUl said:

People seem to forget that Fire Emblem at it's core is a turn-based strategy RPG. Since Awakening & Fates pushed this whole idea to romance everyone & everything, appearently we now need standards for this whole romance stuff, which imo is just another feature to sell the game. The day IS really thinks about making this whole romance & dating stuff a  core feature, we can stop calling  it Fire Emblem. This is not what Fire Emblem is about, maybe IGN will make you believe this crap but it's really not.

 I personally have no interest in romancing a fictional character. This is also the reason I don't care for an Avatar (selling feature).

 Reading through this thread just proves my criticsm towards modern FE. This subject will never be done right (unless you find the likes of Niles & Leon a genuine representataion of gay people and even than I find most S supports terrible & cringy) , like now there are 8 options in this game and people still are whining about it.

It's great that you find only the strategy part of Fire Emblem worth caring for. The reality is that it is also part roleplaying game and IS took the game into a new direction since Awakening and what 'Fire Emblem is about' has evolved. Many people now play FE for both the strategy and also relationship building aspects as they are not mutually exclusive.

Also, in this instance, I don't think you can combine the 8 together. Almost everyone loves the wlw options...it is the mlm options that are creating the backlash. Also, I would like to say that while the subject will be controversial forever, in the context of TH, IS could've easily prevented what's happening now. If you've read through the thread, you'd know what IS should've done initially that would've entirely prevented what's happening right now.

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49 minutes ago, evoyvoy said:

In terms of female options catering to the straight male audience, I definitely know straight men in real life that have a weird and problematic fantasy of seeing lesbian relationships. When 3 of the most popular female students in the game are wlw options and someone that historically attracts a very controversial and specific demographic dominated by straight men is also an option, one can't help but feel the wlw options were chosen with straight men's preferences in mind. The fact that 3 wlw options are plot relevant while mlm gets a whopping 0 is also another disappointment to many.

I do agree that it seems like they designed this to cater to straight men who fetishize lesbian relationships, but I have to also wonder if women who legitimately swing that way are into the options we supposedly have.

Spoiler

Sothis is obviously the odd one out.  I think there's a bit of a discrepancy when it comes to which gender fetishizes those that look like children, with adult men dominating that field by a vast margin.  That isn't to say there aren't women who do the same - there was an infamous example here in the United States where an adult female teacher hooked up with a pre-adolescent boy who was one of her students.  I don't remember, but I believe the boy as 12-14 years of age.  But that said, I can't think of examples where adult women have preyed on little girls in a similar fashion.  And with that said, people have also suggested Sothis will undergo an appearance change that'll make her look older, so perhaps it isn't fetishizing a loli in this case.

Dorothea I could see some women being into.  Generally speaking women are more into altruistic, sociable sorts, and Dorothea strikes me as both - due to her background (being a performer and all) and due to her profile suggesting she's an egalitarian.  That, and some of the same traits that straight men are into are what lesbian/bi women are into.

Edelgard I could also see women being into.  She's a woman who seems to have an air about her that exudes authority.

Mercedes also seems altruistic.  Same with Rhea.  That said, these two I'm a bit less sure on.  I dunno, I feel like more lesbian/bi women were clamoring for characters like Catherine and Shamir.  Though on that note, I feel the same can be said of a lot of men, except they get their wish fulfillment because male Byleth seems capable of S-supporting just about any woman in the game.

 

30 minutes ago, FeatheredDragon said:

I wouldn’t agree that the wlw supports are catering to men, any more than that they’re lesbian relationships and a chunk of straight men like that. Who would you throw into the wlw supports, because I don’t really see anything that fixes that issue. If you make it more teachers, well you run the risk of having the exact same problem the mlm supports are having.

Let's see...

Your options for faculty women are:

  • Manuela
  • Shamir
  • Catherine
  • Rhea

Yeah, it's a veritable wasteland of old women here, isn't it?  Why, I don't think I can detect a single wrinkle on any of these characters, meanwhile it's outright been proven Alois is 45 years old and it seems like Gilbert is old enough to be your dad considering the students aren't that much younger than your avatar and he seems to be the father of Annette.

In fact, I almost have to wonder if women would prefer the likes of Shamir and Catherine over students.

But regardless, it's less about the fact that it even appeals to lesbian women in the first place and more the fact that they don't really seem to put much thought into appealing to women in general while they definitely do their utmost to tick all the right boxes when it comes to appealing to straight men.  For example, the dark mage design in Fates was supposed to be for straight women what Camilla was for straight men.  Yet when I hear women talk about what they like in Fates, practically none of them bring up the dark mage design.  What I usually hear about instead is characters like Leo or Xander, who are characters that already had a lot of thought put into them as-is (I'm sure without designers/writers even thinking about how they appeal to women).

24 minutes ago, fOrEiGn sOUl said:

People seem to forget that Fire Emblem at it's core is a turn-based strategy RPG. Since Awakening & Fates pushed this whole idea to romance everyone & everything, appearently we now need standards for this whole romance stuff, which imo is just another feature to sell the game. The day IS really thinks about making this whole romance & dating stuff a  core feature, we can stop calling  it Fire Emblem. This is not what Fire Emblem is about, maybe IGN will make you believe this crap but it's really not.

One, FE had a focus on marriage and supports long before Awakening and Fates came around.  Shit, Genealogy is basically the precursor to the whole eugenics game that exists in those two games, and you'd be stupid not to get all the supports you can in the GBA/Tellius games due to the stupidly good buffs they provide.  Only games without that stuff are the Archanea games (except New Mystery; also, there were hidden support bonuses anyway, so it was worth using characters with prior relationships between each other), Gaiden (black sheep of a game anyway), and Thracia 776 (same deal as Archanea though); these games either are really old and so had archaic limitations or were poorly received.

Two, people are entitled to be disappointed about a certain aspect of the game.  Hell, they are entitled to let it disappoint them enough to ruin their hype for the game.  I myself don't care too terribly much about romance in games for my own enjoyment because it's almost always written in a way that I don't like... but imagine you're a gay person playing this series, and you want to be able to live out a romantic fantasy in a game.  At best, you get mere hints and teases about a character's sexuality, with it all not really amounting to much.  Then finally, it seems like IS noticed you and gave you some gay options in their latest game... but they're characters you didn't even want to romance.

It's like if a child asked for Nintendo's latest console for his birthday this year, and his mother just got him another Wii (except it's his Wii, instead of it being the family Wii).  While he may be grateful for the thought, it's nevertheless a major disappointment and he can't help but doubt that his mother actually listens to his wishes.  The difference is it's a much bigger deal, as it marks a greater problem with the entertainment industry in its lack of catering to the LGBTQ community.

And third, basically what @zuibangde said.  Times are changing, and games are complex enough these days that their appeals are no longer singular.  Ever since Fire Emblem's transition to the Super Famicom, people have expected more out of the titular series than a skeletal story on the level of the first Legend of Zelda game.  And with the GBA titles, people have come to expect more out of each individual character and their relationships with other characters.  As the game has made strides in tech, the narrative became more advanced and progressed.  As such, people naturally came to expect more out of the games than the same stuff with a new paint job.  That includes expecting them to eventually include LGBTQ characters.

It's a step in the right direction, but for the appeal to gay men it's just that; a mere step.  For the women, it's more of a stride, and I'm not even sure if it was actually meant to be that way so much as it was meant to appeal to men who like seeing two women kissing.

16 minutes ago, Mad_Scientist said:

I think you are misunderstanding the situation here. There is a long, long, looong history of LGBT characters in Japanese works of media being censored or altered for overseas release, especially in the USA. Both Japan and the USA have plenty of issues involving LGBT people that go back ages, but in the US in particular the mere existence of an LGBT character in a work of fiction, especially a work of fiction that's generally viewed as family friendly or kid oriented, has had the potential to spark massive outrage and boycotts. When the English Sailor Moon dub changed lesbians to cousins, it wasn't because the original creators were "ashamed" of them.

As an American, I really despise those "family values" types of people who try to keep LGBTQ elements out of family/child-oriented media.  I fundamentally believe they're ruining our country.  But that's a discussion for another time.

I feel like a lot of earlier examples in particular were because of the big AIDS scare, which was notorious for invoking a great deal of hysteria directed at the LGBTQ community.  Today we've a better understanding of these issues.  What holds us back is little more than a hysterical degree of taboo and willful ignorance on the part of the people who discriminate against them (many of these same people having never completed high school and being damned proud of their own stupidity).

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I think I’d be impossible to cater for what everyone wants in a gay/lesbian romance. Different people look for different things and some people are super into old dudes like Alois or Gilbert or girls who are into edelgard or Mercedes. Hell, people were into Shamir, not because she’s altruistic, and she certainly isn’t sociable, but because she looks like she’d dom the hell out of you. These choices are clearly not for you, but they’re for someone, even if it’s kinda out of left field. It would be nice to have some more variety, absolutely, but I’m happy that we’re getting more than the nothing that was fates ‘gay’ and ‘lesbian’ supports. 

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13 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

I do agree that it seems like they designed this to cater to straight men who fetishize lesbian relationships, but I have to also wonder if women who legitimately swing that way are into the options we supposedly have.

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Sothis is obviously the odd one out.  I think there's a bit of a discrepancy when it comes to which gender fetishizes those that look like children, with adult men dominating that field by a vast margin.  That isn't to say there aren't women who do the same - there was an infamous example here in the United States where an adult female teacher hooked up with a pre-adolescent boy who was one of her students.  I don't remember, but I believe the boy as 12-14 years of age.  But that said, I can't think of examples where adult women have preyed on little girls in a similar fashion.  And with that said, people have also suggested Sothis will undergo an appearance change that'll make her look older, so perhaps it isn't fetishizing a loli in this case.

Dorothea I could see some women being into.  Generally speaking women are more into altruistic, sociable sorts, and Dorothea strikes me as both - due to her background (being a performer and all) and due to her profile suggesting she's an egalitarian.  That, and some of the same traits that straight men are into are what lesbian/bi women are into.

Edelgard I could also see women being into.  She's a woman who seems to have an air about her that exudes authority.

Mercedes also seems altruistic.  Same with Rhea.  That said, these two I'm a bit less sure on.  I dunno, I feel like more lesbian/bi women were clamoring for characters like Catherine and Shamir.  Though on that note, I feel the same can be said of a lot of men, except they get their wish fulfillment because male Byleth seems capable of S-supporting just about any woman in the game.

 

Well, I can't speak for all women who love women. But I myself am fairly satisfied with the options we (according to Thani's leak) have, though there are some things I wish were different.

Spoiler

Sothis is as you mention something of the odd one out, but I personally am so used to "she looks like a young girl but actually she's a thousand year old vampire/dragon/alien/whatever" that it barely even registers for me now, which is probably not a good thing. On the bright side, Thani implied that Sothis's design was gonna change quite significantly after the timeskip, and some of the screenshots in the recent previews show that even pre-timeskip her character model looks taller and older and less "loli" than I expected. Maybe she was sleeping so long and this caused her form to regress into a more childlike form, but now that she's awake she's gradually returning to her true, adult form? One can hope.

Anyways, I digress a bit. The thing about Sothis that I find most interesting is that she, and also Rhea, are apparently both options, and both of them are seemingly super important characters that are central to the plot. So the fact that they're both same sex options is nice, it shows that it's not just minor side characters that are LGBT, it's the major players too. (Also, if Rhea in any way takes after her obvious predecessor Seiros, then my interest in her has gone WAY up after watching the intro movie and seeing Seiros in it. Please tell me Rhea is at least a fraction of that amazing.)

For Edelgard, again, it's nice to see that it's not just minor characters. Edelgard is one of the three house leaders, and in terms of marketing and trailers, the MAIN lord of the game. Not counting the avatar, she's basically the main character. And she's apparently bisexual. That's... great. Like, that's way more than I would have hoped for.

...also, she's got a great design, especially her post timeskip design. And she seems like a really interesting character.

Dorothea and Mercedes are fine. Dorothea has a really cute design I like, Mercedes I care less for but she seems nice, and hey, the more options the better.

By far my biggest disappointment is the lack of Catherine. I really, really, really wanted her to be romancible as a woman, and I know I'm not alone with this. Not even close. But even despite that, I"m happy with what is apparently available.

 

Side note, regarding the claim that the wlw options are meant to appeal to straight dudes, I think that's both true and not true. As you comment later in your post, none of the female characters have a single wrinkle. Every single playable female character that has been revealed so far is young (or looks young at least), conventionally attractive, and feminine. There is no variety, there are no butch options for example, because butch women just don't exist in the game.

So I think it's less "the specific same sex romance options for women were designed to appeal to straight men who find lesbians hot" and more "every female character design for a playable character was designed with straight men at least slightly in mind, so no matter what wlw options were chosen they would naturally appeal to straight men who find lesbians hot". If that makes any sense?

 

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I am just wandering why IS decided to do that. Even from a pure commercial viewpoint, I can imagine that many customers who haven't try it before might give FE3H a go for including important male protagonists, and it can boost the sales in many ways including provoking more discussion on social media. I can hardly imagine anyone who won't buy it simply because it has important male characters as bisexuals. If such people do exist, I assume that will be a minority compared to the potential customers who will be attracted by the same-sex supports.

And it won't be a huge work. Just changes the pronouns and although it might not be perfect it can still satisfy many and at least it would be better than now.

Edited by genagi
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1 hour ago, Book Bro said:

I still think there's a possibility that there's two more male options that are only recruitable post skip, and thus aren't shown on the main menu until they're recruited, to bring the total to 5 just like with the women.

I agree with you here. It doesn't make sense to make the number of options unequal for no good reason and FE have always had a history of having equal numbers of representation (1 option per gender in Fates, F/M Grima, F/M Robin and F/M Corrin in Heroes). Also, two of the wlw options are considered as 'spoilers'/only available post skip. I think it would make sense if there are also two mlm options that are only available post skip to balance things. However...I'm keeping my expectations low because 90% of this is probably wishful thinking haha.

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I would make a post about this, but I don't want for certain member to find his way into this thread : ) But I think that everything that needed to be said has been said already.

However I will say that I still have hope that some S supports are locked and that you can't see them in the menu before you play in the routes they show up in. Sorta like how Azura had three different supports depending on which path you chose, but this is probably just a very wishful thinking on my part.

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1 hour ago, Book Bro said:

imagine if there was just one character for each sex that was exclusively gay. Only male Byleth could S support Dimitri, and only female Byleth could S support Petra.

I wouldn't mind. Not everyone has to be romanceable to beign with. It's more ''natural'' if some characters are only gay and not bi.

However what we see here is people whining ''WHY IS X NOT GAY! I DIDN'T WANT Y'' Which is excessive whinning.

The whining is going to the point that if everyone was bi people would still complain why there isn't another character who is bi.

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

One, FE had a focus on marriage and supports long before Awakening and Fates came around.  Shit, Genealogy is basically the precursor to the whole eugenics game that exists in those two games, and you'd be stupid not to get all the supports you can in the GBA/Tellius games due to the stupidly good buffs they provide. 

However it wasn't about 'self-insert' romancing certain characters and i don't think the community was angry just because Y wasn't romanceable.

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2 hours ago, Book Bro said:

To everyone dismissing the complaints as overreaction or whining: imagine if there was just one character for each sex that was exclusively gay. Only male Byleth could S support Dimitri, and only female Byleth could S support Petra. Now imagine the shitstorm that would ensue despite this miniscule portion of the cast being same-sex exclusive. And yet, no one is even asking for that because of course the straight fans must be pandered to, but when queer fans want more than a few bisexual options (not even exclusively gay) with popular characters, people are very quick to dismiss that as entitlement, when really it's asking for little more than the bare minimum.

I still think there's a possibility that there's two more male options that are only recruitable post skip, and thus aren't shown on the main menu until they're recruited, to bring the total to 5 just like with the women.

Exactly this. The few times that games have had exclusively gay characters (just one of each gender though), I've seen a huge amount of straight people get upset even though they easily have 3-5 times the number of options.

I wish that there were two more male options post timeskip, but as I said before, the directors specifically talk about how they planned this game so that all of your characters are available to talk and build a relationship with from the beginning. While it's possible that there may be one or two post timeskip, it seems unlikely since they wanted all characters to have equal opportunity to build and develop their stories. I find it even unlikelier that we'll happen to get two who are both options for M!Byleth.

Edit @Shrimperor : You're literally missing our point. This entire thing isn't natural because it's a constructed story and game. And Book Bro's hypothetical is extremely limited because it just removes a couple options rather than giving straight people a couple options. And yes, Awakening did create "self-insert" romance, but it's clearly here to stay and so we can critique the issues we have about how same sex romances are implemented. Just because it's an improvement from their previous work doesn't mean that we have to accept that.

Another Edit: Personally the potentially best way to handle it would be to have every person S support either Byleth. However that would have issues with time and cost, especially with everything fully voiced. There's countless ways that IS could have implemented more male same sex supports, or completely reworked all same sex supports or the romantic supports in general, but they didn't

Edited by firewitch912
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35 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

I would make a post about this, but I don't want for certain member to find his way into this thread : ) But I think that everything that needed to be said has been said already.

However I will say that I still have hope that some S supports are locked and that you can't see them in the menu before you play in the routes they show up in. Sorta like how Azura had three different supports depending on which path you chose, but this is probably just a very wishful thinking on my part.

I feel like many of us are grasping on straws/having wishful thinking in hopes of having better mlm options. 😛 I hope IS realizes what the reactions are and be smarter about their decisions in future games. But honestly, Japan's reaction matters more and I don't expect them to be as upset as the West.

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32 minutes ago, FeatheredDragon said:

I think I’d be impossible to cater for what everyone wants in a gay/lesbian romance. Different people look for different things and some people are super into old dudes like Alois or Gilbert or girls who are into edelgard or Mercedes. Hell, people were into Shamir, not because she’s altruistic, and she certainly isn’t sociable, but because she looks like she’d dom the hell out of you. These choices are clearly not for you, but they’re for someone, even if it’s kinda out of left field. It would be nice to have some more variety, absolutely, but I’m happy that we’re getting more than the nothing that was fates ‘gay’ and ‘lesbian’ supports. 

For one, it isn't about me, it's about a general audience.  When have I ever made the implication that what I was discussing were matters of what I myself am into?  Especially after I made this comment:

51 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

I myself don't care too terribly much about romance in games for my own enjoyment because it's almost always written in a way that I don't like...

Sure, I have favoritism for certain characters, some of whom are characters of the gender I have a sexual preference for, but at the end of the day the reason I even give a damn about this kind of stuff is because A) I have IRL LGBTQ friends who are really clamoring for some representation and a chance to simulate these kinds of fantasies in games like FE and B) it's more interesting to me to see less conventional (but still appropriate) relationships, which is why I initially said that I found the m|m options to be interesting.

For another, me talking of altruism and sociable is just one example of things I know some women have been shown through surveys to like in romantic partners (and on that note, it was only a survey of straight women).  And I already mentioned Shamir anyway and how I think, if anything, more women would be into her than some of the more drawn back characters that are supposedly options.  I mean hell, there was this funny image someone replied to Shamir's Twitter reveal with that was a lesbian's reaction to it.  And of course it had to be followed up with "durr, it should be straight instead".

What I'm saying, essentially, is it's understandable that people would be disappointed, and it seems to me there's a very evident discrepancy between how they're treating m|m options and f|f options that indicates they care more about one than the other.  Even if one is perfectly content with the options, what we have is:

  • 5 females - three of them are students, three of them are plot relevant, practically all of them are popular choices, and none of them seem to have previous lovers or children attached to them
  • 3 males - two of them are likely twice the protagonist's age, none of them are very plot relevant, only one of them is anywhere near the popularity of all the bisexual female options (if Twitter interactions are a good indication of character popularity), and two of them have had wives and children beforehand, those children likely being damn near your character's age

Furthermore, people were misled by the first article about gay options seemingly implying that Claude was bi - showing off a massive slew of pictures of Claude seemingly hitting on a male Byleth and male Byleth commenting to himself about Claude having an "easy smile" that is "striking".  That of course is more the journalist's fault than it is the fault of the developers, but still it only serves to further stoke the smoldering disappointment.

This is to say nothing of what I personally think in regards to the quality of the male options, or if I personally think they're genuinely great characters or not.  For me, Alois did stick out more than some of the other male characters in the game, and I feel the only way we can have a properly in-depth analysis of the relationships is if we know the full story behind them.  However, initial impressions seem to indicate they have, at the foundation, been made to be unequal.  And by that, I mean circumstantially very different between each other.

2 minutes ago, Mad_Scientist said:

So I think it's less "the specific same sex romance options for women were designed to appeal to straight men who find lesbians hot" and more "every female character design for a playable character was designed with straight men at least slightly in mind, so no matter what wlw options were chosen they would naturally appeal to straight men who find lesbians hot". If that makes any sense?

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, I understand.

Perhaps you are right.  I would prefer it to be that way instead of a deliberate fetishizing of lesbianism for straight men, because I've seen enough of that in the real life to make me vomit up my guts (and I don't mean it in a harmless way; I've seen and heard stories of men getting... violent about it).

Maybe I've just gotten cynical of the entertainment industry, or perhaps I'm so absorbed in my worldview that I'm having a hard time seeing it in a different light.  I have a tendency to see only the worst in a lot of directors and writers in media, partly because a number of big names have been outed as creeps and perverts, or worse.

It's difficult to determine the intentions of these people because all you have are their actions to base on... that, and in FE open same-sex relationships are still a fairly novel concept, so you can't just point at something they did in the past and be like "this is how they usually treat their gay characters".  All I have to back up what I say is that judging from FEH they seem to cater more to male fans than female fans, though even the evidence I have of that (namely the 3:1 female:male ratios for all the seasonal banners) may just be them simply rolling with what seems to be popular rather than them actively appealing to men exclusively.

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

However it wasn't about 'self-insert' romancing certain characters and i don't think the community was angry just because Y wasn't romanceable.

Eh, but the protagonists of each game are meant to be an extension of the player - even if they're the furthest thing from what the player is like - and in every instance where they have marriage options they always have the most.

Speaking of self-inserts, fantasies, and the older games though, that reminds me of New Mystery and all the implied relationships your avatar could get into.  But only with certain characters.

And to the end of lack of community outrage, there was barely any internet platform for people to come together.  That's like saying people didn't follow "fake news" as much in 1992; that's not because of some general superiority of intellect people had back in the day, it's because fake news publications weren't prolific in the days before the internet became a widespread public phenomenon.

Also, again, I feel those dismissing the issue as "it's just more Fateswakening bullshit" are missing the point here.  Either that, or they're deliberately using their nostalgia/criticisms of later games to dismiss the opinions of LGBTQ fans, which I'd say is rather facetious.  Though that again might just me assuming the worst in folks.

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14 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

I feel like many of us are grasping on straws/having wishful thinking in hopes of having better mlm options. 😛 I hope IS realizes what the reactions are and be smarter about their decisions in future games. But honestly, Japan's reaction matters more and I don't expect them to be as upset as the West.

And that's because we don't know if anyone bilingual enough has dared to spoil the Japanese Community with the previews of this side of the pond. And last time I checked, most of the 5ch-ers were expecting Raphael to be an option because they have a hard time thinking his design is not made to appeal the Gay Community...

Anyways, I don't think we'd see Japan's Reaction until the game is released...

Edited by AstraSage
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You were saying women like this women like that. You don’t know what lesbians look for in a woman, and neither do I. Most people are looking for deep emotional value, a lot of people just want a cute dom. I’m confused by the mlm selection, but just cause there’s not more cute older women to bang doesn’t mean you have to write 50 paragraphs. I highly assume there’ll be more, so wait before decrying IS as not understanding the LGBT community. This is a big step up from the two we got in fates, which wasn’t really gay and lesbian as much as they were horny for corrin. It’s a step in the right direction.

Edited by FeatheredDragon
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45 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

issues we have about how same sex romances are implemented.

i don't see anyone complaining about the 'how' but about 'Why isn't X romanceable'.

14 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

extension of the player

There's a huge difference between that and 'self-insert'

14 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

and in every instance where they have marriage options they always have the most.

but not have every Character romanceable. Some even don't have Romance options but have set Romances or no romance at all.

If people suddenly don't want the game because the lack of Romance options, i would say that Dating sim exists. Even Yaoi/Yuri ones. Don't expect a strategy/RPG game to appeal to everyone just because they have to.

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17 minutes ago, AstraSage said:

And that's because we don't know if anyone bilingual enough has dared to spoil the Japanese Community with the previews of this side of the pond. And last time I checked, most of the 5ch-ers were expecting Raphael to be an option because they have a hard time thinking his design is not made to appeal the Gay Community...

 Anyways, I don't think we'd see Japan's Reaction until the game is released...

Speaking of Raphael, I feel like people that want to romance Raphael online are mostly guys. And definitely thought that his design was made to appeal to the gay community. I also heard that Claude's design is supposedly also very similar to this character from a yaoi manga that Chinatsu made. Honestly, the decisions IS made so far for mlm options is just a bit ???

Edited by zuibangde
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Just now, Shrimperor said:

i don't see anyone complaining about the 'how' but about 'Why isn't X romanceable'.

There's a huge difference between that and 'self-insert'

but not have every Character romanceable. Some even don't have Romance options but have set Romances or no romance at all.

If people suddenly don't want the game because the lack of Romance options, i would say that Dating sim exists. Even Yaoi/Yuri ones. Don't expect a strategy/RPG game to appeal to everyone just because they have to.

People have discussed both how and why, and also the why is part of the how.

Also the self insert part is moot, since that's clearly what FE has evolved into. And no, not every character has to be romanceable, but when you're given options it's always disheartening to find limited or no same sex options compared to the typical plethora of opposite sex ones, which is what Ertrick is getting at.

If you're only coming in here to tell us that romance isn't the main focus of this game, we know that. But that doesn't mean that we can't critique the romance. And it's perfectly reasonable if people choose not to buy a game because of the same sex romance, because that's a protest against the limited  and/or  questionable representation that the game (any game, not just 3H) has. However, there hasn't actually been many people, if anyone, who has stated that they won't buy the game because of same sex romances. 

Please don't use the "dating sims exist" excuse as a way to try to silence our critiques and complaints about how same sex romances are apparently being handled in this game.

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5 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

People have discussed both how and why, and also the why is part of the how.

Also the self insert part is moot, since that's clearly what FE has evolved into. And no, not every character has to be romanceable, but when you're given options it's always disheartening to find limited or no same sex options compared to the typical plethora of opposite sex ones, which is what Ertrick is getting at.

If you're only coming in here to tell us that romance isn't the main focus of this game, we know that. But that doesn't mean that we can't critique the romance. And it's perfectly reasonable if people choose not to buy a game because of the same sex romance, because that's a protest against the limited  and/or  questionable representation that the game (any game, not just 3H) has. However, there hasn't actually been many people, if anyone, who has stated that they won't buy the game because of same sex romances. 

Please don't use the "dating sims exist" excuse as a way to try to silence our critiques and complaints about how same sex romances are apparently being handled in this game.

If they choose to not buy it, just because of this minor issue,  then they’re kinda closed minded and not looking at the whole package. This game has not even gotten close to questionable representation and the limited rep is still more than quadruple what we got in fates. 

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2 minutes ago, FeatheredDragon said:

If they choose to not buy it, just because of this minor issue,  then they’re kinda closed minded and not looking at the whole package. This game has not even gotten close to questionable representation and the limited rep is still more than quadruple what we got in fates. 

A person can use any reason they want not to buy a product. Maybe someone isn't a die-hard FE fan and the lack of good romance options is enough to turn them away from the game. What happened in a previous FE game doesn't matter.

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9 minutes ago, FeatheredDragon said:

If they choose to not buy it, just because of this minor issue,  then they’re kinda closed minded and not looking at the whole package. This game has not even gotten close to questionable representation and the limited rep is still more than quadruple what we got in fates. 

 

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

A Person can buy/not buy a game for any reason they want. However if romance is the reason they gonna not buy the game, then this isn't the right game for them to begin with. 

Once again, it's reasonable for people to choose not to buy this game for this reason. They can see it as a major reason, even if you don't. Also, romance has had a major impact in the game since Awakening, and whether you like it or not that's how FE is now. It seems close minded to use romance to specifically discredit people's issues with lgbt rep, when there are tons of straight people whose major reason for buying the games is the supports and relationships. And if you're entire argument is that romance isn't a big part of the game, why are you even in this thread? This entire time it really seems like you're just trying to discredit the actual critiques and issues that people have with the handling of same sex relationships in this game. Just because it's better than the previous game doesn't mean it's good, especially since fates was horrendous in its lgbt representation.

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Well Baldur’s gate 2 ee had an exclusively gay female npc the player could romance my problem with her had nothing to do with the fact that she was gay and everything to do with the fact that she was a vampire who quite literally killed a character in the party then asked to join us... so not the best example there (and the male romance option was a bi halforc who was also evil aligned) honestly I was more annoyed that all the ‘official’ (remake only characters) gay romance options were evil. Granted I’m not gay so unlikely to play those paths but seriously why were they both evil -_-;

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Spoiler

I wonder how the LGBT Fire Emblem fan base would've reacted differently if Raphael and Lorenz were the other gay choices instead of Gilbert and Alios. It seems to me that the outrage is less about lack of number of representation of M&M LGBT choices or how good the characters are and more about not pandering to their personal tastes. i.e None of the Blue Lions males can be romanced, I wanted Claude, Linhert is too feminine or not to my taste, Alios and Gilbert are too old etc. 

 

Edited by Aquarius
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