FE16 Same-Sex Relationship Discussion

[Rose482]

I'm annoyed, but not surprised by this.

Of course this won't stop me from enjoying the game, but I do feel bad that the gay men options got what seems to be the end of the stick here.

[GiveMeCuteness]

I find it funny that the reviewer said that she couldn't show the female options for spoiler reasons, but the fact that Alois is a same sex option is a spoiler in itself since it implies that something bad happens to his wife. In my opinion, it would've been better story wise if certain characters weren't even romance options at all. The fact Alois is romanceable ruins the surprise of whatever happens with his wife.

Also the fact that Sothis of all characters is a same sex option seemingly shows that this caters more to straight dudes than actual lesbian women which is absolutely sus. Not to mention the fact that female Byleth gets story relevant characters as options (best girl Edelgard, Rhea, and the worst option Sothis) while male Byleth gets two dudes that are probably the same age as his dad and one character that certainly has mixed reception between gay men. I mean, they could have at least made one of the male lords be an option (I'll leave it up to you guys to decide between Claude and Dimitri, I ain't touching that fam).

I'm hoping that what's happening here is that IntSys. wants to see the reception of these options first to see if they should add more that would fix the unfair disparity between the w/w and m/m options.

edit: I forgot to finish the second sentence hahaha oops

Edited July 13, 2019 by GiveMeCuteness
i forgot to finish my point

[Eden Agleam]

Is... Is Alois really that old? He never seemed particularly old to me, just mustached and a little bit thicc. Honestly, I put him in his thirties; I wouldn't say he's dad levels of old. 

[firewitch912]

41 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Again, 100% understand the disappointment but i'm seeing some overreaction in this thread. On paper, the unbalanced ratio here isn't really enough to affect the quality of the game in my opinion. It all comes down to the writing.

Though i do get appearances are a factor and the gay options for the guys don't appear to be particularly appealing when they're a bunch of old dudes while the ladies get younger options. But still, this isn't something to lose sleep.

I don't want to sound rude, but I don't really care if a straight man thinks queer people are overreacting. People were very emotional when the news first broke, and that's perfectly fine. You've twice now said that people are overreacting when they're just expressing their disappointment. And I'm tired that we've had to make ourselves palatable and state that we're okay with our current options.

 Although appearances do matter, a lot of the discussions about the issues with these characters (notably Alois and Gilbert) has to do with their stories, personalities, and the fact that they appear to be mostly secondary characters (this is really only true for Gilbert). And the comparisons that people made between the m/m and f/f options isn't just that the f/f has more and they're more attractive, it was about the male gaze and how the choices for both groups was based in that direction.

Claude was a reasonable assumption, and people have a right to be upset that he's actually "straight." His character has been clearly queer-coded from the beginning, and the subtext and text has only risen since then. And while that article purporting Claude as being an option did worsen things, those clips of Claude flirting with M!Byleth are definitely in the game. It's understandable that we aren't happy that once again a queer character can't actually have a same sex romance.

Edit for @Shimmerfang: Alois has been stated to have worked with/under your dad when he was first in the Knights of Seiros. He might not be as old but I feel like he's at least 30, which would make him around 10 years older than Byleth.

Edited July 13, 2019 by firewitch912

[Armagon]

10 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

I don't want to sound rude, but I don't really care if a straight man thinks queer people are overreacting.

I hope this ain't implying i'm not allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

10 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

You've twice now said that people are overreacting

I only said some and it's rather small number of people. Obviously don't think everyone's overreacting. And i've also mentioned twice that i completely understand the disappointment. You seem to have left that out.

 

12 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

Claude was a reasonable assumption, and people have a right to be upset that he's actually "straight." His character has been clearly queer-coded from the beginning, and the subtext and text has only risen since then. And while that article purporting Claude as being an option did worsen things, those clips of Claude flirting with M!Byleth are definitely in the game. It's understandable that we aren't happy that once again a queer character can't actually have a same sex romance.

This i 100% agree with. There really is no reason why Claude shouldn't be a gay option. It's Soleil all over again. A character that should've been a gay option isn't.

[AstraSage]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Again, 100% understand the disappointment but i'm seeing some overreaction in this thread. On paper, the unbalanced ratio here isn't really enough to affect the quality of the game in my opinion. It all comes down to the writing.

Though i do get appearances are a factor and the gay options for the guys don't appear to be particularly appealing when they're a bunch of old dudes while the ladies get younger options. But still, this isn't something to lose sleep.

Hopefully there's some care in the Support Convos, but to be personally honest I see Gilbert as an option and the knowledge kinda gives me a reaction of constantly wondering how they're gonna make his support differ from Alois  who shares the same niche (and the latter is unfortunately also on a bit of thin ice as a non-platonic option because one big trait of his shown in some preview screenshots is that he's a proud married man with a kid, and his wife is now doomed to be fridged in order to enable him as a romantic pairing for both Byleths) and not give me a feeling similar (using a game mechanic as a metaphor) to how Awakening made me wish Libra could reclass as a Fighter instead of a Mage because the latter class tree didn't offer anything special after both Priest and Dark Mage overlapped both of of its promotions.

Add the fact everyone kinda got queerbaited by Claude in the latest batch of Japanese Ads for the game (Seriously, how could anyone see a clip of Claude seemingly asking Byleth for a Dance at [what I call] the Big Prom Ball Scene while being framed with the same First Person PoV both Awakening and Fates intentionally used to keep the Avatar as gender-neutral as possible in close interactions and not entertain the possibility of him being as bisexual as Edelgard?) and that a previous screenshot disproved all the Blue Lions Guys (which, with the exception of Ashe who's as slender as Linhardt, were a nice middle ground between slender and burly frames) as candidates, folks have some reason to be disappointed.

Edited July 13, 2019 by AstraSage
Misplaced word

[NegativeExponents-]

10 minutes ago, Shimmerfang said:

Is... Is Alois really that old? He never seemed particularly old to me, just mustached and a little bit thicc. Honestly, I put him in his thirties; I wouldn't say he's dad levels of old. 

I don't actually believe he is all that old. Definitely older than the other students and Byleth but still quite good looking imo and not as old as Gilbert or Hanneman.

Like I said before, my biggest issue is not his looks or age but the whole wife and kid thing. To add on to that though, I also find dating your friend's child weird and creepy which is what Alois would be doing if he were to get into a relationship with Byleth. One of the reasons I completely despise stuff like Robin/Lucina.

He did seem pretty popular with a lot of people seemingly wanting him as a m/m option though so I don't think he's a bad choice overall and adds some body type and age diversity into the choices.

[Florete]

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I hope this ain't implying i'm not allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

You're allowed to have an opinion. Just don't expect people to care about it.

Someone who doesn't care about a feature telling the people who do care about a feature that they're overreacting about it is a good way to get eye rolls.

[FeatheredDragon]

24 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

Claude was a reasonable assumption, and people have a right to be upset that he's actually "straight." His character has been clearly queer-coded from the beginning, and the subtext and text has only risen since then. And while that article purporting Claude as being an option did worsen things, those clips of Claude flirting with M!Byleth are definitely in the game. It's understandable that we aren't happy that once again a queer character can't actually have a same sex romance.

Ok, I think this is somewhat ridiculous. I know Claude is queer-coded and flirty but that by no means defines his character as gay. Whatever character Claude is, why he acts that way can be more than he’s gay. Hell maybe there’s a reason why he’s so flirty but unable to be s supported. I feel like the info we have here is too limited to make a solid judgement on Claude.

[zuibangde]

This is my opinion and it's nothing against Gilbert and the fans of him but I think Gilbert being the third option exemplified the negative reaction. If the third option was any of the 12 remaining male students (not even necessarily Claude), the reaction would be a lot more positive.

Very little people (close to none) expected or wanted Gilbert to be an mlm option in the first place (before the options were revealed). He shares the same niche as Alois and everyone seems to prefer Alois more than Gilbert. He is way too old for most people's tastes (he's probably the third oldest after Tomas and Hanneman) and also have a child (which is weird/potentially problematic for many people). Many people are thinking things like how 'It could've been Claude.' 'It could've been Caspar.'  or 'If IS really wanted another person to represent the 'bara' category, it could've been Raphael.' Heck, if they only said there are two options and it's Alois and Linhardt, I'd think people would be less upset. Right now people are disappointed at the imbalance between males and females AND the questionable choice(s) for mlm. 

mlm already have fewer options than wlw and Gilbert as the third option just reinforces this idea that IS really don't care for or understand a specific demographic of players. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by zuibangde

[firewitch912]

27 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I hope this ain't implying i'm not allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

I only said some and it's rather small number of people. Obviously don't think everyone's overreacting. And i've also mentioned twice that i completely understand the disappointment. You seem to have left that out.

 

This i 100% agree with. There really is no reason why Claude shouldn't be a gay option. It's Soleil all over again. A character that should've been a gay option isn't.

Of course you're allowed an opinion! I was mostly concerned that you appeared to be discounting other people's opinions. I still don't think anyone is really overreacting, as I've seen people have just as strong or stronger reactions to Dorothea's hat as I have about this matter.

I'm glad we agree about Claude! I'm still hoping that they might patch it, especially if people complain/critique it.

14 minutes ago, FeatheredDragon said:

Ok, I think this is somewhat ridiculous. I know Claude is queer-coded and flirty but that by no means defines his character as gay. Whatever character Claude is, why he acts that way can be more than he’s gay. Hell maybe there’s a reason why he’s so flirty but unable to be s supported. I feel like the info we have here is too limited to make a solid judgement on Claude.

I never said that Claude's entire personality was that he's gay. I only brought up his queer text and subtext because it's relevant Plenty of characters are queer coded and have more to them, and I think Claude is included in that. But if they have to make up a reason that he appears to be bi but isn't actually, that seems cheap. It also would make him blatant queerbaiting, which is hugely problematic

12 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

This is my opinion and it's nothing against Gilbert and the fans of him but I think Gilbert being the third option exemplified the negative reaction. If the third option was any of the 12 remaining male students (not even necessarily Claude), the reaction would be a lot more positive.

Very little people (close to none) expected or wanted Gilbert to be an mlm option in the first place (before the options were revealed). He shares the same niche as Alois and everyone seems to prefer Alois more than Gilbert. He is way too old for most people's tastes (he's probably the third oldest after Tomas and Hanneman) and also have a child (which is weird/potentially problematic for many people). Many people are thinking things like how: It could've been Claude. It could've been Caspar. If IS really wanted another person to represent the 'bara' category, it could've been Raphael.

The fact that Claude explicitly flirts with you and is not an option is a slap to the face. mlm already have fewer options than wlw and Gilbert as the third option just reinforces this idea that IS really don't care for or understand a specific demographic of players. 

I agree with you on this. People aren't necessarily upset with Alois and Linhardt as options, just that we deserve more variety. Honestly I was fine with the 3 m 5 f divide when I thought the 3rd might be Claude (or even another student like caspar or ferdinand). Gilbert at this point is a nobody, and even once we actually get the game it's likely that he's a relatively unimportant side figure. Maybe his story is interesting, but what we have so far doesn't make him favorable. I've even seen people who prefer Hanneman to him. Similarly, the only time that people started having issues with Alois is when it surfaced that he's married and has a kid.

Edited July 13, 2019 by firewitch912

[zuibangde]

 

 

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2 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

I agree with you on this. Gilbert at this point is a nobody, and even once we actually get the game it's likely that he's a relatively unimportant side figure. Maybe his story is interesting, but what we have so far doesn't make him favorable. I've even seen people who prefer Hanneman to him. Similarly, the only time that people started having issues with Alois is when it surfaced that he's married and has a kid.

To add on to this. It is a bit unfair that F!Byleth gets three choices if she wants to S Support a student. M!Byleth only gets one student option and it's someone that many people thought was a girl when he was first revealed. It really wouldn't hurt to throw in a masculine student as an option.

As of now, I guess I'll have to stick with S supporting the girls as M!Byleth again. 😛 

[Armagon]

12 minutes ago, Florete said:

Someone who doesn't care about a feature telling the people who do care about a feature that they're overreacting about it is a good way to get eye rolls.

Ah yes, because i totally don't care for the feature. All i said was that i wasn't gonna use it. If i truly didn't care, i wouldn't be disappointed over the unbalanced ratio and the unfair choices.

3 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

I was mostly concerned that you appeared to be discounting other people's opinions.

Yeah, that wasn't my intention. I respect the opinions, I'm simply sharing mine.

4 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

I never said that Claude's entire personality was that he's gay. I only brought up his queer text and subtext because it's relevant Plenty of characters are queer coded and have more to them, and I think Claude is included in that. But if they have to make up a reason that he appears to be bi but isn't actually, that seems cheap.

If, and only if, they write it well, i think i'd be able to let it slide. I'd still be kinda mad because Claude should've absolutely been a gay option but if i'm provided a good enough reason as to why he isn't, i'll be less mad. But i'll still be mad, especially after we got a good gay character in the form of Leon in Echoes. 

 

 

[redlight]

Alois and Gilbert?... Do we have screencaps or something? Those two sound farfetch'd, especially Alois who I recall is married. Are they sure they didn't mix it up with one of the buff boys (Dedue and Raphael) or Rodrigue?

[firewitch912]

20 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

To add on to this. It is a bit unfair that F!Byleth gets three choices if she wants to S Support a student. M!Byleth only gets one student option and it's someone that many people thought was a girl when he was first revealed. It really wouldn't hurt to throw in a masculine student as an option.

As of now, I guess I'll have to stick with S supporting the girls as M!Byleth again. 😛 

I don't mind that M!Byleth gets a more feminine guy option, there's a lot of people who would like that. However, I do agree that we should have more masculine student options. I personally am just glad that Alois is an option, though I'm concerned about how the story will show his transition considering his marriage. I once joked that Alois would be the daddy option and now that's too true.

16 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Ah yes, because i totally don't care for the feature. All i said was that i wasn't gonna use it. If i truly didn't care, i wouldn't be disappointed over the unbalanced ratio and the unfair choices.

Yeah, that wasn't my intention. I respect the opinions, I'm simply sharing mine.

If, and only if, they write it well, i think i'd be able to let it slide. I'd still be kinda mad because Claude should've absolutely been a gay option but if i'm provided a good enough reason as to why he isn't, i'll be less mad. But i'll still be mad, especially after we got a good gay character in the form of Leon in Echoes. 

 

 

The thing for me is that no reason is going to be good enough. It's still an excuse for queerbaiting and no amount of in game lore is going to change the fact that the producers and directors made these decisions when they could have just as easily made him bi. Ultimately this game is a story and they purposefully chose to make his character the way that they did.

12 minutes ago, redlight said:

Alois and Gilbert?... Do we have screencaps or something? Those two sound farfetch'd, especially Alois who I recall is married. Are they sure they didn't mix it up with one of the buff boys (Dedue and Raphael) or Rodrigue?

Yes, it's true. There's screencaps somewhere in this thread (I think on page 4 or 5). You can also check Syrenne Mcnulty's twitter, as she posted the info.

Edit: It was actually page three in a spoiler tag. I've brought here.

Spoiler

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by firewitch912

[Armagon]

12 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

The thing for me is that no reason is going to be good enough. It's still an excuse for queerbaiting and no amount of in game lore is going to change the fact that the producers and directors made these decisions when they could have just as easily made him bi. Ultimately this game is a story and they purposefully chose to make his character the way that they did.

Yeah, that's fair. It's just i personally would rather have a good reason than no reason at all.

[zuibangde]

So the person that leaked the mlm options said that Alois is 45 at the beginning of the game. LOL. So after the timeskip, you can romance a 50 year old!!!!!! (and great news he's not even the oldest option!!!!)

Edited July 13, 2019 by zuibangde

[NegativeExponents-]

Wow. I imagined anywhere between late twenties to late thirties but 45?! He's certainly been keeping up with his beauty sleep and moisturizing.

[firewitch912]

7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Yeah, that's fair. It's just i personally would rather have a good reason than no reason at all.

I know that we keep saying reason, but in all honesty it's just an excuse on their part. It's only a reason if it's plot relevant, and the only reason that I can think of for required heterosexuality is if he married a new plot relevant person or had a plot relevant child. The first we know doesn't happen because then F!Byleth wouldn't be able to s support him but she can. The child seems unlikely since we were told no child units, plus requiring him to be hetero for that would fall into the same trap that meant that the same sex supports in Fates couldn't have children, and I hope they would avoid that fiasco.

7 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

So the person that leaked the mlm options said that Alois is 45 at the beginning of the game. LOL. So after the timeskip, you can romance a 50 year old!!!!!! (and great news he's not even the oldest option!!!!)

WOW! He looks really good for his age! Are we sure that he isn't secretly a male loli manakete? Now I'm really hoping that the knights and professors don't actually change looks in the five year span, or at least not as much as the students. Otherwise Gilbert will be completely grey by then.

[FeatheredDragon]

Characters can still be flirty without be being gay. I’m not saying that this behavior is ok, but if it’s part of his character I think it’ll be interesting.

[nyainou]

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

But what of the supposed legions of yaoi-loving females in Japan who Nina is one of? Who buy yaoi by the stack off entire dedicated manga shelves?

You missed the part where I said they don't care about the female audience, just pandering the the straight male one. Why would they care about women who like something they consider dirty? 

Anyway, I'm not trying to be conspiracy theorist or anything. It just feels like they don't care about people in my demographic, even though we're just as valuable a fan as any. Shit, people who are into incest have gotten way more than any LGBT FE fan. And I'm sorry to come across as entitled, this isn't my franchise and FE doesn't owe me anything. Its just.. interesting that they would rather cater to lolicons, incest lovers and other much less respectable groups, instead of, I don't know, gay people. 

[firewitch912]

4 minutes ago, FeatheredDragon said:

Characters can still be flirty without be being gay. I’m not saying that this behavior is ok, but if it’s part of his character I think it’ll be interesting.

It's not just that he's flirty. It's that there's a lot of queer coding in his character and personality, which we've seen since the beginning. The same can be said of Edelgard, and even Dorothea and Mercedes, and you wouldn't say that thode characters are necessarily flirty. Claude is similarly queer coded and has been in all media released about him, it's just most apparent with the flirting. And since he isn't same sex romanceable, that makes it queerbaiting.

1 minute ago, nyainou said:

You missed the part where I said they don't care about the female audience, just pandering the the straight male one. Why would they care about women who like something they consider dirty? 

Anyway, I'm not trying to be conspiracy theorist or anything. It just feels like they don't care about people in my demographic, even though we're just as valuable a fan as any. Shit, people who are into incest have gotten way more than any LGBT FE fan. And I'm sorry to come across as entitled, this isn't my franchise and FE doesn't owe me anything. Its just.. interesting that they would rather cater to lolicons, incest lovers and other much less respectable groups, instead of, I don't know, gay people. 

I really feel you on this. This game is an improvement over Fates, but there's still issues. And it's especially repugnant when they use LGBT rep as a way to further pander to loli fans...

Spoiler

provided that Sothis is actually romanceable as has been rumored

And not to add to the conspiracy, but I'm always worried that they think FE is for guys. You see it in children's media and elsewhere all the time where they blatantly pander to one gender or the other in order to gain more money.

[aaronarium]

My two cents:

- It is bogus for WLW to get more attention than MLM

- It is tone-deaf for the writers to code Claude as LGBT as they did and have him not be a same-sex option. Though it remains to be seen if this a result of Claude's original writing or his English characterization.

- It's fair to not be happy with the choice of the three MLM they did include. But let's be sure to keep in mind that these feelings are mostly opinion-based. I personally think that it's an eclectic trio and that Alois and Gilbert aren't as similar as some people are saying, but I respect people feeling otherwise.

- As legitimate as the issues with how IS implemented same sex marriage are, let's be sure to assess which arguments we want to make and try to avoid any bad-faith arguments and assumptions, especially when we have so little to go on. If something like a dev interview comes out and they try to hem and haw around the issue of same sex marriage then yeah, that's totally scornworthy. But for now we should think about what arguments we're making so our optics are better if this turns into a bigger thing.

[FeatheredDragon]

3 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

It's not just that he's flirty. It's that there's a lot of queer coding in his character and personality, which we've seen since the beginning. The same can be said of Edelgard, and even Dorothea and Mercedes, and you wouldn't say that thode characters are necessarily flirty. Claude is similarly queer coded and has been in all media released about him, it's just most apparent with the flirting. And since he isn't same sex romanceable, that makes it queerbaiting.

I think you’re really overthinking this. Whether or not if they’re queercoded, it doesn’t matter what you see in them. No one is as flirty or as bold as Claude, and because it seems like he’s just toying with you and has no interest in men, you claim it as queerbaiting. I see it as part of his character and a greater narrative that could be developed over the course of the story. I’m sad that we can’t smooch him as well, but I want to see what they do with him.

[nyainou]

I wish that, we as a fanbase, had a good, effective way to speak up on our feelings about this. I'm always thinking about making an open-letter or something. I don't want to seem like the raging gay idiot and make the LGBT FE fans seem stupid, but I feel like we have a right to make our thoughts and opinions known. And.. I just really want something to come out of that expression. This whole thread is more or less a rehash of what we went through when Fates released, at least in terms of emotion and opinions. How much of that was heard by IS and Nintendo? Was something even accomplished? I don't know. Its a huge bummer. Not just in this specific case but.. in the scenario of being a passionate fan who really loves something, only for the devs to completely disregard your thoughts. And as I've said, obviously we're not entitled to anything. I know this. But I strongly believe fan input of any kind has value. Maybe that just means.. they've heard us, and they don't care. I don't know.