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FE16 Same-Sex Relationship Discussion


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8 minutes ago, Tamanoir said:

The weirder thing is that if they really wanted a feminine guy option, wouldn't Ignatz have been a better option ? 

Which would make three potential gay/bi options for Golden Deer that are totally straight. I really don't get it.

And obviously, they're likely gay only for Byleth. So, I doubt we'll see Alois X Gilbert, for example (or Edelgard X Rhea/Dorothy for that matter).

Well there doesn't seem to be any romance for anyone outside of Byleth anyway so if that's the case then I can personally let it slide.

12 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

I'm still confused why people say Linhardt is feminine. Aside from his Hair, there is nothing particularly feminine about him that other males that are considered masculine don't have.

Well, I did mistake him for a woman initially (same for Ignatz) but that was only at first glance.

While I agree that he's not particularly feminine, he certainly lacks some masculine traits in both personality and appearance that other guys have and well I think that lack of masculinity to many is viewed as feminine and a bit of a dealbreaker to some.

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1 minute ago, linkhuesitos said:

Meanwhile all of you were fighting abouth which gender got more virtual relationships Three Houses got a 97 from Famitsu.

The topic name, dude, is about virtual relationships. Not about ratings. Also that's a 93, not a 97.

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25 minutes ago, Tamanoir said:

The weirder thing is that if they really wanted a feminine guy option, wouldn't Ignatz have been a better option ? 

Which would make three potential gay/bi options for Golden Deer that are totally straight. I really don't get it.

And obviously, they're likely gay only for Byleth. So, I doubt we'll see Alois X Gilbert, for example (or Edelgard X Rhea/Dorothy for that matter).

I mean so far we haven't seen any romance options between the other characters, so at least it's not that we've been left out of that (yet). Also, Syrenne showed part of a support convo between Dorothea and Edelgard which was at least vaguely flirty.

13 minutes ago, GreyJedi said:

Thank-you, and yes, I blame the gayming article for most of the drama around Claude in particular (admittedly, I still haven't actually read said article, but I don’t think I need to at this point).

 

Thank-you. It was probably your post I was referring too. I wanted to quote individual people at first, but I didn't want to comb through ten pages a second time. My spoon and fork are ready (to eat my words)... but I need to ask: is the flirting something that can happen with every character, regardless as to which gender you choose? That's what I was presuming, considering the whole tea party thing.

Don't worry about it!

According to the gaymingmag article, either gender Byleth can flirt with everyone. I think this might be an exaggeration, but we haven't seen enough evidence either way. Regardless, his article definitely showed pics of M!Byleth and Claude being flirty. You can find them in the article, but in case you don't want to feed into the clickbait, one of them was of Claude saying something about letting Byleth grasp him by the heart and neck. Another was of Byleth commenting on Claude's striking smile.

1 minute ago, Parrhesia said:

A lot of this thread's complaints seem to boil down to 'I do not personally want to fuck the same-sex male options'.

A lot of assumptions are being made about peoples' personalities. How much information do we have on these people? A portrait, a blurb and a handful of lines?

Echoing what's been stated about 'let's not turn this into an Edelgard hatejerk'.

Unless it's terribly mishandled - which, hey, we'll see - this represents a huge step forward for the series. In large part because everything pre-FE15 was a trainwreck, to be fair.

A lot of it boils down to why were these the options chosen, though I will admit some people have also stated that they don't find them attractive. I certainly don't want any of these options removed or replaced now that we have them, but that doesn't mean stuff can't be added.

I haven't seen assumptions about their personality, more so about how unimportant most of the options appear to be (given that we have so little to know about them).

I agree, there's no need to bring down the f/f options because of the m/m ones. It accomplishes nothing besides making us turn on each other when we should be united. I'm not going to go into detail because so many said it so much better just a couple posts before.

It is a huge step forward, but that's necessarily saying much given the history of this game series. I'm still glad for it and I can't wait to experience them as individuals, but I still think there could be improvements about the number and diversity of the options, and I'm going to let the developers/IS/Nintendo know. I'll wait until the game is release/embargo is completely lifted so that I have the full picture, but I still find it highly likely that things could be improved. Lots of people have been describing the issues we can already see emerging/apparent, simply given who they chose as the same sex options and comparing the two genders.

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1 hour ago, Michelaar said:

I'm still confused why people say Linhardt is feminine. Aside from his Hair, there is nothing particularly feminine about him that other males that are considered masculine don't have.

Appearance aside, I think the fact that he is being pushed towards a healer role in the game is also making people attribute him to be feminine. The other two characters that are being pushed towards being a healer in the game are Mercedes and Marianne, so Lindhardt is being associated with them along with his long hair. It doesn’t help that in previous FE games, a lot of the male healers are depicted as being feminine like Lucius and Forrest or having ‘softer’ personalities compared to other male characters in the game like Brady or Rhys.

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Lucius wasn't a primary healer, and there's plenty of counter-examples; Saul, Moulder, and a whole heap of crusty old guys. Though I recognise that Linhardt = healer = femme isn't necessarily a point of view you have yourself.

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4 minutes ago, Parrhesia said:

Lucius wasn't a primary healer, and there's plenty of counter-examples; Saul, Moulder, and a whole heap of crusty old guys. Though I recognise that Linhardt = healer = femme isn't necessarily a point of view you have yourself.

Oof you’re right. I keep forgetting that Lucius couldn’t heal until promotion. I blame heroes for making him one of the two(?) male infantry healers until Brady so I keep thinking he’s a healer back in FE7. In the FE games though, I think healer = feminine is a point of view that many shares either consciously or subconsciously.

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Lucius is also a light magic user, and it's difficult to avoid seeing a connection between light magic and healing when they're combined in 3H. His promotion in FE7 is also mechanically weighted more to the priest class than the added monk class. 

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Huh. This could've been much worse honestly. I've browsed through the murky waters of fanfiction. Please believe me when I say the same sex male pairings could've been much worse.

MOD EDIT: I don't know if this is assumed knowledge or not but I'm guessing not judging by the next guy's reaction so have a spoiler tag

Spoiler

For example, Dmitri could have had the option of romancing the guy who was responsible for killing his parents.

 

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Conveniently ignoring the fujoshi market is 10 times bigger than the yuri one and that unlike the yuri one the fujoshi one is almost entirely made up of girls is really interesting, straight women are the biggest gay male fetishizers there are and their male counterpart pales in comparison.

--

Are lesbians more accepted? Yes they are.

Do straight guys fetishize them more than straight women fetishizing gay men? No.

At least try to not to be a hypocrite when you say lgbt options were added to appease a certain group of fetishists, this is way more a matter of acceptance than a matter of fetishism.

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9 hours ago, Michelaar said:

I'm still confused why people say Linhardt is feminine. Aside from his Hair, there is nothing particularly feminine about him that other males that are considered masculine don't have.

I'll say he looks perhaps a bit androgynous - that he more just doesn't have as abundantly masculine features as the other males have.  Admittedly that mostly comes down to the hair and the bodies; the main thing that distinguishes him as male is that his body is stockier than the females in this game.

9 hours ago, GiveMeCuteness said:

That perception of lesbians in Japan is the reason why Soleil was created in the first place, and we all know how well that went.

You know, that has always been a big point of contention for me, so there's no excuse for why I hadn't thought about it earlier.

I feel like whatever the outcome may be (they could be well-written, but still the age difference and circumstances are far from ideal), the proper response should be to provide our criticisms in a constructive and understanding manner.  Because it does seem like they're trying, but they won't know what's wrong unless we tell them what exactly is wrong.  This time it at least feels like they're generally avoiding basing their bi/gay characters on stereotypes, even if it's a rather roundabout way to do so on the male side.

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5 hours ago, DukeC4 said:

Huh. This could've been much worse honestly. I've browsed through the murky waters of fanfiction. Please believe me when I say the same sex male pairings could've been much worse.

MOD EDIT: I don't know if this is assumed knowledge or not but I'm guessing not judging by the next guy's reaction so have a spoiler tag

  Reveal hidden contents

For example, Dmitri could have had the option of romancing the guy who was responsible for killing his parents.

 

Sorry for going off topic, but where did hear that spoiler?

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2 hours ago, Almonds said:

Conveniently ignoring the fujoshi market is 10 times bigger than the yuri one and that unlike the yuri one the fujoshi one is almost entirely made up of girls is really interesting, straight women are the biggest gay male fetishizers there are and their male counterpart pales in comparison.

--

Are lesbians more accepted? Yes they are.

Do straight guys fetishize them more than straight women fetishizing gay men? No.

At least try to not to be a hypocrite when you say lgbt options were added to appease a certain group of fetishists, this is way more a matter of acceptance than a matter of fetishism.

Let's not be lesbophobic here please

Lesbians are "more accepted" in that their identities are erased or thought to be less important. That's still blatant homophobic.

From my understanding, in Japan women fetishize gay men more, but in the US, men fetishize lesbians more. Regardless both groups are fetishized and it helps no one to try and say one is more oppressed/fetishized than the other.

Please read some of the past page or two to see why it's not acceptance.

1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

Sorry for going off topic, but where did hear that spoiler?

It was from Thani if I remember correctly

Spoiler

According to her, Dedue was a part of the group of bandits that killed Dimitri's parents. I think I also read somewhere in this forum that Dedue is part of the Duscur and they appear to be a new version of the Serenes

 

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13 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

Lesbians are "more accepted" in that their identities are erased or thought to be less important. That's still blatant homophobic.

So basically not having homosexual relationships is wrong, but adding them is also wrong?

The western World is (as in structural, or in general) not homophobic in the least. At this point if someone still sees a problem with being openly Gay (or Bi or whatever) then it is a problem with that person.

Instead of complaining we should see that a lot of same sex options are now available, that is something we should celebrate not criticize.

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10 minutes ago, Lord of Riva said:

So basically not having homosexual relationships is wrong, but adding them is also wrong?

The western World is (as in structural, or in general) not homophobic in the least. At this point if someone still sees a problem with being openly Gay (or Bi or whatever) then it is a problem with that person.

Instead of complaining we should see that a lot of same sex options are now available, that is something we should celebrate not criticize.

Nowhere did I say that adding same sex options is wrong. I said that having more f/f options is not a sign of them being more accepted.

Homophobia is systemic and built into the system and societies. It's not just an issue within individuals, but rather built into many of the systems and beliefs held by many people. I and almost every single one of my friends have experienced homophobia or transphobia, both from individuals but also on a wider scale from institutions and governmental structures. Homophobia is still very much alive in this world (both in the west and the east) so please don't pretend that it's not.

As I've said before, please don't come in here to dismiss our concerns. We are happy that we have better/more representation than we used to, but that doesn't mean that there aren't issues within that representation. We are allowed to critique those issues and telling us we're not serves no purpose besides to try and silence us. 

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1 hour ago, firewitch912 said:

Nowhere did I say that adding same sex options is wrong. I said that having more f/f options is not a sign of them being more accepted.

Homophobia is systemic and built into the system and societies. It's not just an issue within individuals, but rather built into many of the systems and beliefs held by many people. I and almost every single one of my friends have experienced homophobia or transphobia, both from individuals but also on a wider scale from institutions and governmental structures. Homophobia is still very much alive in this world (both in the west and the east) so please don't pretend that it's not.

As I've said before, please don't come in here to dismiss our concerns. We are happy that we have better/more representation than we used to, but that doesn't mean that there aren't issues within that representation. We are allowed to critique those issues and telling us we're not serves no purpose besides to try and silence us. 

Don't worry you can have all the concern you want, but i would similarly ask that you do not dismiss the critique of your position, framing it as homophobia is not helpful either.

There is no basis to assume that homophobia is systemic in western civilisation, there are laws that protect you from discrimination regardless of sexual orientation and we celebrate the diverse human expressions of being every year, thats not something a homophobic system would do. 

Instead we have mainstream games like Fire Emblem openly embracing these expressions and we also have loads and loads of media tailored to each taste.

I do understand why Fire Emblem, with it's Relationship mechanics, has to be diverse, it's great that we have that as it's definitely part of the mechanics (contrary to the "diversity" demands in other franchises etc.)

I am openly Bisexual as well, that however does neither define which expressions i can enjoy (I can relate to any good character regardless of Sex or sexual orientation, i mean why wouldn`t I?) since we are individuals first and not solely defined by our sex(uality). Having 3 male and 5 Female same sex marriage goes above and beyond of what would be necessary to deem it in any way "not representative" enough, and with this seemingly low amount (as much as the general "low" character count) we can at least be hopeful that those supports are deep and that will hopefully be absolutely great. 

EDIT: at all the (potential) follow-ups not going to help derrail another thread, i do not have anything else to add to the actual Topic. I am well Educated on the "Issues" (the US face) if those things are in any way homophobic (or transphobic, which actually has nothing to do with this topic or what i said... ) is debatable though.

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2 minutes ago, Lord of Riva said:

There is no basis to assume that homophobia is systemic in western civilisation, there are laws that protect you regardless of sexual orientation and we celebrate the diverse human expressions of being every year, thats not something a homophobic system would do. 

I'm sorry, but those laws do NOT exist in every state in America. There are plenty of southern states that do NOT protect you regardless of sexual orientation. Furthemore, maybe read about something called the Equality Act and the government that opposes it, and maybe read about the army ban against trans people. There are plenty of facts that show that homophobia and transphobia is still systemic in western civilization. Is it a LOT better than a lot of other places, of course. But to suggest homophobia has ended when people are still losing their jobs, hiding who they are in fear of their safety, and legit being killed on streets for existing and being gay suggests it still very much exists.

Laws protect against racism too, but it is still very much in existence (i.e. some recent tweets).

On topic of the actual topic, I think I'm personally disappointed in the options we get. Linhardt is fine. So is Alois OR older guy. But to not have at least one 'average' guy I think is the issue. Be it Felix, Ashe, Caspar, Claude, Sylvain, idk. I think they could have had one average student. Linhardt is feminine in looks based on the typical way we subscribe those things, and while Alois and the older guy are masculine in looks, they're also a lot older than perhaps what a lot of people playing are (at least way older than ME). And while I appreciate the option of a feminine guy, an older guy, I just want one average guy to be thrown in.

Numbers don't matter as much to me, personally. I'm just gonna say RIP Claude. Haha. I think if Edelgard got to be bi (even though realistically only because she's probs gonna be the 'canon' romance option), they could have made Claude (sorry Dimitri fans) bi. 

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13 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

Why do the girls get more LGBTQ options than the guys?

bECAUSE tITTIES...

wait no...

DOUBLE TITTIES

Srsly tho, it's because yuri is hot and this is made in Japan. I doubt they give a single flying fuck about representation. They're only adding these options because people bitched, and the male options were just shit they scraped from the bottom of the barrel and added to the game last minute. Meanwhile, all the female options are just the top 5 girls because "oh bby waifus". 

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14 minutes ago, Lord of Riva said:

Don't worry you can have all the concern you want, but i would similarly ask that you do not dismiss the critique of your position, framing it as homophobia is not helpful either.

There is no basis to assume that homophobia is systemic in western civilisation, there are laws that protect you from discrimination regardless of sexual orientation and we celebrate the diverse human expressions of being every year, thats not something a homophobic system would do. 

Instead we have mainstream games like Fire Emblem openly embracing these expressions and we also have loads and loads of media tailored to each taste.

I do understand why Fire Emblem, with it's Relationship mechanics, has to be diverse, it's great that we have that as it's definitely part of the mechanics (contrary to the "diversity" demands in other franchises etc.)

I am openly Bisexual as well, that however does neither define which expressions i can enjoy (I can relate to any good character regardless of Sex or sexual orientation, i mean why wouldn`t I?) since we are individuals first and not solely defined by our sex(uality). Having 3 male and 5 Female same sex marriage goes above and beyond what would be necessary to deem it in any way "not representative" enough, and with this seemingly low amount (as much as the general "low" character count) we can at least be hopeful that those supports are deep and that can will hopefully be absolutely great. 

I'll take a critique, if it actually addresses the issue that I'm talking about instead of going for a strawman argument.

Kiran does a great job of describing why homophobia is systemic, so please read his post. And know that similar things are happening in numerous countries, not just the USA.

If it was just the number of same sex options, then we'd be happy that we get so many compared to past games. However, we must also consider the kinds of characters that they chose and think about why they might have made those choices. There's a lot to consider and contextualize when we're discussing and critiquing the same sex options beyond just numbers. After all, not all representation is good representation, as can be seen with numerous queer characters in this series.

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1 minute ago, firewitch912 said:

 There's a lot to consider and contextualize when we're discussing and critiquing the same sex options beyond just numbers. After all, not all representation is good representation, as can be seen with numerous queer characters in this series.

I will not take on Kiran on his statement, I do not want to be part of derrailing another thread, I am open to discuss this though, if someone opens a Thread or send me a PM, you would not be the first.

What is wrong with the characters then? Don't you think that your own preferences would dictate which people you would prefer as same sex options?

I see nothing wrong with the characters they chose and from what little we know you actually do not know how the characters are done, you might even like them as characters.

i know a lot of Gays that prefer rather androgynous partners, this does not align with what I like though , does that mean now that their preference would be bad representation or mine?

This argumentation simply does not work. (I'm off to bed now anyways, so you guys have to decide if you want to answer this *shrug* it's late in my Time-zone)

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5 minutes ago, Lord of Riva said:

I will not take on Kiran on his statement, I do not want to be part of derrailing another thread, I am open to discuss this though, if someone opens a Thread or send me a PM, you would not be the first.

What is wrong with the characters then? Don't you think that your own preferences would dictate which people you would prefer as same sex options?

I see nothing wrong with the characters they chose and from what little we know you actually do not know how the characters are done, you might even like them as characters.

i know a lot of Gays that prefer rather androgynous partners, this does not align with what I like though , does that mean now that their preference would be bad representation or mine?

This argumentation simply does not work. (I'm off to bed now anyways, so you guys have to decide if you want to answer this *shrug* it's late in my Time-zone)

I think it's rather obvious what the issue is. The issue isn't exactly that they picked old men. It's that it's very clear that for the f/f options they picked plot relevant characters and characters that were very clearly made with the intent of being popular. While for the m/m options instead of picking a plot relevant character like Dimitri/Claude, or some of the dudes whose design would warrant popularity, they went with two old men. One of which is already married and has a kid, and the other likely has a kid too based on what we know. So it's kinda obvious the m/m were afterthoughts when they could have easily made the Lords an option too, and fans for the most part would have accepted it even if they weren't huge fans of the lords. Besides the vast majority of players tend to prefer the lords over the others. So it just makes more sense to use a character who is more or less guaranteed to be a fan fav than just what we have. Not saying the old men options shouldn't exist at all, but to purposely not include someone more relevant. Like it's hard to not see why people aren't happy to me.

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