FE16 Same-Sex Relationship Discussion

[firewitch912]

12 minutes ago, Lord of Riva said:

I will not take on Kiran on his statement, I do not want to be part of derrailing another thread, I am open to discuss this though, if someone opens a Thread or send me a PM, you would not be the first.

What is wrong with the characters then? Don't you think that your own preferences would dictate which people you would prefer as same sex options?

I see nothing wrong with the characters they chose and from what little we know you actually do not know how the characters are done, you might even like them as characters.

i know a lot of Gays that prefer rather androgynous partners, this does not align with what I like though , does that mean now that their preference would be bad representation or mine?

This argumentation simply does not work. (I'm off to bed now anyways, so you guys have to decide if you want to answer this *shrug* it's late in my Time-zone)

As has been said in this thread many times, it's the diversity of options, or lack thereof.

There is nothing wrong with the characters as individuals. The issue comes when you take a wider look at the types of options we have. Yes there are people who like these characters (I like them too) but that doesn't erase the fact that we lack a younger and more masculine option. And if the only option in a game was a gay stereotype of femininity, then yes that would be bad, even if people liked the character. So to have a a more feminine guy plus two much older men (which feeds into a much different issue of queer men being seen as predatory towards younger men) gives me reason for concern. And the other big issue we've been talking about is how sidelined the m/m options appear to be. Not a single one is a plot important character, and two are rather tertiary characters that we have barely any info on, besides that one is married.

[Ertrick36]

Also, I did overlook one point of contention...

4 hours ago, Almonds said:

Are lesbians more accepted? Yes they are.

They really aren't.  I won't get too much into it, but lesbians suffer micro-aggressions, violence, lacking job security, legal discrimination, and all the other awful things that gay men suffer.  Sometimes the reasoning is different, but they still suffer all the same.

15 minutes ago, Lord of Riva said:

What is wrong with the characters then? Don't you think that your own preferences would dictate which people you would prefer as same sex options?

I see nothing wrong with the characters they chose and from what little we know you actually do not know how the characters are done, you might even like them as characters.

i know a lot of Gays that prefer rather androgynous partners, this does not align with what I like though , does that mean now that their preference would be bad representation or mine?

This argumentation simply does not work. (I'm off to bed now anyways, so you guys have to decide if you want to answer this *shrug* it's late in my Time-zone)

The issue is that there's not that much diversity in the options.

It'd be like if you were given the option of either eating a sandwich or one of two different burgers in a sit-in restaurant.

Having Alois and Gilbert would be fine if they also had others.  Like Kiran said, it would've been good to just have an "average" student in the mix; some relatively normal-looking dude.  They wouldn't have necessarily had to have made one of the other house leaders or other plot-relevant characters gay, though that would've helped.

When people criticize the choices, it isn't a denouncement of the characters, either as characters or as bi options.  It's a denouncement of the fact that they're all we get when the devs could've included other options.  I feel that's kind of why some people make a bigger deal about the number disparity; just two other options could've made the gay male options much better.  Homosexuality is an arbitrary trait - by that, I mean it has basically no bearing on one's personality, especially in a fantasy world where they may not even face discrimination (and thus not have their personality be affected by it).  So to that end, there's no real reason they couldn't make another character bi unless they were running out of budget and couldn't pay for the extra time and manpower to implement, like, two more supports.

[GiveMeCuteness]

1 hour ago, Lord of Riva said:

I do understand why Fire Emblem, with it's Relationship mechanics, has to be diverse, it's great that we have that as it's definitely part of the mechanics (contrary to the "diversity" demands in other franchises etc.)

That's actually an interesting point, I've always found it super unnecessary to demand literally every demographic being represented in fictional media (especially in games that have an extremely strict narrative with no malleability). When companies unnaturally try to do that it often results in lack luster token characters at best and downright offensive stereotype characters at worst. But I do have to argue that games like the modern form of the fire emblem franchise, which has character relationships and romance as a high selling point for the more casual players and a handful of hardcore players, having diversity in at least the gay/bi romantic options is pretty much necessary for obvious reasons. Now that also means that assuming IntSys is pretty much entirely made up of straight men, they'd presumably have trouble grasping that gay relationships are barely any different from straight ones, which is why it's important to give them constructive criticism when they flounder a bit or a lot. Hopefully in the future the people that bring this issue into IntSys' eyes aren't the kind to write clickbaity, misinformation spreading articles that only hurt our chances of better representation and are instead the kind to write well constructed and well informed pieces that inform them on how to improve in future titles or updates.

Edit: Not a critique to the quote, more like an expansion of it.

Edited July 17, 2019 by GiveMeCuteness
one clarification

[bufkus]

16 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

Why do the girls get more LGBTQ options than the guys?

Because 90% of the game's staff are heterosexual men and they'd rather satisfy their urge to see two girls get it on than care about gay options--which btw aren't usually aimed at actual gay men in Japan. they are aimed at women instead.

 

[Troykv]

I wonder how the japanese would have reacted if Claude or Dimitri were bisexual options.

[Bloom]

I wonder if we bitch enough they would patch in better gay options for M!Byleth because as it stands now, the devs can fuck off.

Why is it THIS predicted this shit a year ago?

[Vanil]

31 minutes ago, Bloom said:

I wonder if we bitch enough they would patch in better gay options for M!Byleth because as it stands now, the devs can fuck off.

Why is it THIS predicted this shit a year ago?

Patching more options in sounds like the best bet tbh. I don't really understand the whole "Guess we have to wait til the next FE game!!" thing, when it's very possible nowadays to just patch in something.

[SimplyUnknown]

8 minutes ago, Vanil said:

Patching more options in sounds like the best bet tbh. I don't really understand the whole "Guess we have to wait til the next FE game!!" thing, when it's very possible nowadays to just patch in something.

Not to mention there is the guaranteed DLC and updates that were promised along with the DLC. I'm not saying it's a good thing if we have to pay to unlock more romancable options, especially for same-sex romantic options, but the (hopefully free) updates might potentially add S-supports.

[Lewyn]

9 hours ago, Almonds said:

Conveniently ignoring the fujoshi market is 10 times bigger than the yuri one and that unlike the yuri one the fujoshi one is almost entirely made up of girls is really interesting, straight women are the biggest gay male fetishizers there are and their male counterpart pales in comparison.

--

Are lesbians more accepted? Yes they are.

Do straight guys fetishize them more than straight women fetishizing gay men? No.

At least try to not to be a hypocrite when you say lgbt options were added to appease a certain group of fetishists, this is way more a matter of acceptance than a matter of fetishism.

Lesbians are infinitely more accepted, you can even say they are accepted by most people.  Probably 90% or more of straight guys find lesbians hot.  Either way the first point is the most important, lesbians illicit almost no negative reaction while gay males illicit tons of that.  

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

Lesbians are infinitely more accepted, you can even say they are accepted by most people.  Probably 90% or more of straight guys find lesbians hot.  Either way the first point is the most important, lesbians illicit almost no negative reaction while gay males illicit tons of that.  

Being found hot by straight men makes it far, far more likely that you will be sexually assaulted by a straight man, pal. Just because someone fetishizes you doesn't mean they accept your identity as a human being, dummy. Lesbians don't elicit negative reactions among straight men, nor do gay men elicit negative reactions among straight women, but the opposite is also true; lesbians are despised by straight women, and are seen as predatory, just as gay men are by straight men. Would you mind considering the idea of oppression from different perspectives, please?

[Ertrick36]

2 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Lesbians are infinitely more accepted, you can even say they are accepted by most people.  Probably 90% or more of straight guys find lesbians hot.  Either way the first point is the most important, lesbians illicit almost no negative reaction while gay males illicit tons of that.  

This is one of the most ignorant, tone deaf things I've heard in this thread.  "Being found hot" is far, FAR from being the same as being accepted.

Lemme tell you a story about how a lesbian couple were beaten like crazy because they refused to engage in public displays of affection for a man demanding it of them.

Or lemme tell you about all the lesbians who have been abused, either physically or verbally, by men who try to control them and get them to make love to such men.

Or about all the lesbian children who are sent to "gay conversion camps" by dogmatic, religious parents - camps that actually torture kids in an effort to emotionally "beat" the gay out of them.

Or the lesbian children who are disowned by, again, dogmatic, religious parents.

Or the lesbians who lose their jobs because their boss either is dogmatic and religious or didn't like that the lesbian doesn't appreciate his advances.

 

I could go on and on and on, but lesbians are far from accepted.  In fact, in some respects they're treated even worse due to the simple fact that they're women.

[Parrhesia]

Homophobia is, regrettably, alive and well, and women suffer from it too. Let's accept that as a given and move on.

[NegativeExponents-]

1 hour ago, Bloom said:

I wonder if we bitch enough they would patch in better gay options for M!Byleth because as it stands now, the devs can fuck off.

Why is it THIS predicted this shit a year ago?

Just worth mentioning that if anyone wants to go through with that, you should bitch at their twitter account instead of here or reddit or some other forum because twitter is your best bet to be heard by them a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶'̶l̶l̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶u̶b̶l̶e̶/̶t̶r̶i̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶i̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶

[firewitch912]

1 minute ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Just worth mentioning that if anyone wants to go through with that, you should bitch at their twitter account instead of here or reddit or some other forum because twitter is your best bet to be heard by them a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶'̶l̶l̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶u̶b̶l̶e̶/̶t̶r̶i̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶i̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶

While I agree, we should wait until the game is out or embargo is lifted so that we can be assured to have all possible info. And plus then the people holding out on the rumors will potentially join too

[catatora]

The problem with also saying "I think lesbians are hot so I accept them" is that when people don't find a lesbian hot the bigotry surfaces. Lesbians are real people, if your standard of accepting people is how hot they are rather than the fact they're humans who are asking for basic levels of respect then you're still bigot.

 

Can we also not call people who like reading stories depicting same gender couples fetishists? Yeah some gl and bl fans can be creepy or hypocrites about yuri/yaoi and irl lgbt people but jesus. If a gay person can enjoy a story about heterosexuals or even straight porn, straight people can enjoy reading about gay people, etc. 

 

I hope we'd get some dlc but I feel like they'd really prioritize fanservice dlc first

[Azz]

Both gay men and women suffer from homophobia and to say that one is undoubtedly treated better than the other is completely false and ignorant and most often then not a homophobic person doesn't care about your gender. Also saying that gay women are more accepted because straight men fetishise them is the most dimwitted thing I've seen. Fetishisation /=/ acceptation. Straight men like seeing two women they are attracted to together because they are attractive, not because they accept them for being gay (the same goes for straight women and gay men. It's all a fantasy and a fetish, not acceptance). So as Parrhesia said, can we drop this since neither gay men or women, as I've said, have it objectively better than the other.

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, firewitch912 said:

While I agree, we should wait until the game is out or embargo is lifted so that we can be assured to have all possible info. And plus then the people holding out on the rumors will potentially join too

Unironically, probably a good idea. Putting "bitch at Intsys on twitter" on my calendar for the 25th as we speak. 

[Troykv]

8 minutes ago, Azz said:

Both gay men and women suffer from homophobia and to say that one is undoubtedly treated better than the other is completely false and ignorant and most often then not a homophobic person doesn't care about your gender. Also saying that gay women are more accepted because straight men fetishise them is the most dimwitted thing I've seen. Fetishisation /=/ acceptation. Straight men like seeing two women they are attracted to together because they are attractive, not because they accept them for being gay (the same goes for straight women and gay men. It's all a fantasy and a fetish, not acceptance). So as Parrhesia said, can we drop this since neither gay men or women, as I've said, have it objectively better than the other.

Do you think the reason we have more wlw pairs is because it's easier to fetishe it for the main audience?

Edited July 18, 2019 by Troykv

[catatora]

Just now, Troykv said:

Do you think the reason we have more wlm pairs is because it's easier to fetishe it for the main audience?

Guessing you mean wlw, this was already mentioned but there's probably more wlw pairings because they don't see wlw relationships as real or threatening compared with the possibility of a guy they might relate with on some level being into men

[Troykv]

1 minute ago, catatora said:

Guessing you mean wlw, this was already mentioned but there's probably more wlw pairings because they don't see wlw relationships as real or threatening compared with the possibility of a guy they might relate with on some level being into men

I guess is playing into the "male fantasy", and having gay/bi protagonists would ruin that?

[0 Def Cleric]

3 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I guess is playing into the "male fantasy", and having gay/bi protagonists would ruin that?

That, and a particular quirk of Japanese homophobia in that lesbian relationships are considered just practice for the "real thing" with a man, whereas when a man is gay it's expected he'll be gay forever. So it would cause a degree of outcry among bigoted straight women there to make their husbandos gay, whereas men would be less offended by having their waifus be bisexual because it's considered not a "real" relationship (and the fact that there are no exclusively gay female options compounds that.)

[Troykv]

4 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

That, and a particular quirk of Japanese homophobia in that lesbian relationships are considered just practice for the "real thing" with a man, whereas when a man is gay it's expected he'll be gay forever. So it would cause a degree of outcry among bigoted straight women there to make their husbandos gay, whereas men would be less offended by having their waifus be bisexual because it's considered not a "real" relationship (and the fact that there are no exclusively gay female options compounds that.)

Oh that makes sense, Soleil pretty much plays with those ideas, I think someone actually mentioned it before.

I remember something similar happening with Islamic Cultures actually... mlm is considered very illegal; wlw is technically haram too but as far as I know, isn't literally condemmed to death unlike mlm; probably because they believe wlw aren't a real thing too.

I would be wrong of course; but I only remember the gay sodomy to be condemmed to death.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Troykv

[lambiprim]

Linhardt is okay, but he's no someone I'd fine attractive unless he is the only option, which he basically is.

I'm just not going to support this, Intelligent Systems will be gathering data for the game to share with other players, that means they'll see the date themselves too.

I'll marry Linhardt EVERY play-through and get Alois and Gilbert killed in their first missions (or as soon as possible), EVERY play-through.

If enough people do it, they'll get the message. NOT ALL GAY MEN ARE HOMEWRECKERS.

I'm not normally an aggressive person, but I'm honestly tired of this.

It seems that every Japanese game treats it's mlm relationships like a joke. .hack is a fantastic example, as every marriageable male is legitimately a joke.

I'm tired of the representation gay men get in games. it always seems like we get shafted for lesbians unless it's a gay guy only game. Which at that point, they are practically all porn games anyways, so no one takes those seriously.

I'm already readying myself for cyberpunks only gay option for men to be the protagonists cybernetic-enhanced right hand. All they need to do is give it an ai and a voice. cause gay men don't deserve to be in a relationship, they don't deserve to be able to live out the lives they couldn't in the real world in games, they deserve to be by themselves are ruining someones lives, it seems ; ;

[Tuna]

3 hours ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Unironically, probably a good idea. Putting "bitch at Intsys on twitter" on my calendar for the 25th as we speak. 

https://www.intsys.co.jp/contact/

Yup.

I, too, have the 25th-26th down to contact Intsys with my expression of disappointment about this news (if it ends up going from rumor to confirmed but it is looking likely...), as well. And I encourage anyone who feels the same to try to contact them as well. Maybe they'll consider their moves for future games if enough are sent their way. BUT OF COURSE, NO DEATH THREATS OR INSULTS, PLEASE. 

 

Though that's the only contact I know. And I doubt they have a twitter... (if they do, please @ or dm me it, please?)

Edited July 18, 2019 by Tuna

[Capella]

1 hour ago, Tuna said:

https://www.intsys.co.jp/contact/

All of those email addresses have specific purposes unrelated to customer feedback (job apps, business inquires, website issues), so messages sent there may not reach their intended audience. I can't find any other direct online contact info either though. The official Fire Emblem twitter (which I assume is what people are talking about? or else Nintendo's) also states they don't take questions there, so I'm not sure if Nintendo/Intsys looks at stuff sent there.

If anyone wants to try Nintendo of Japan, they have a page for offering feedback here:

https://support.nintendo.co.jp/app/ask_opinion