Preferences for Gendered S-Support Variation

[Content Respecter]

In the unlocalized version of their S-Support, Rhajat expresses hopelessness at loving a female Corrin, and a desire to be reborn as male offset by the immediacy of her feelings. This apprehension is absent in her support with a male Corrin. Along the same lines, a male Corrin will point out to Niles that they're both men, though the bulk of their support is unchanged. The localized release erases these differences; the former case replaces something odd and sentimental with a joke and was generally unpopular, while the latter was unremarked on.

Equivalent male and female instances of these supports nod at equality and assimilation, and we can't pretend that the original variations were rooted in lived experience rather than genre convention. They also unmoor homosexuality from history and social context, which is particularly hollow given how obscure it is in Fates.

It's unclear exactly how Three Houses will represent relationships between Byleth and their same-sex love interests, and I'm curious what everyone's hopes and expectations for this are. We can generally agree on a desire to see same-sex romantic supports, but are we asking for a copy-pasted variation of their heterosexual equivalents or a potentially awkward acknowledgement of their peculiarity? And are we motivated by a desire for gratification, for socially responsible representation, or to better understand these authors' perspectives on homosexuality?

[Mad_Scientist]

I didn't like the localization change for Rhajet because it removed the implication that she was a reincarnation of Tharja, who in this life finally had the courage to fully confess and be together with the one she loved, which was a neat touch that got left. Also the Rhajet/male avatar support is kinda creepy because it highlights the bizarre time dilation thing and that fact that the avatar has known every child character from the moment they were, well, children, and all their early interactions were between that of a child and an adult.

I was less upset about the other change, but just in principle I wish they'd kept them different like in the JPN.

For Three Houses, we have no idea what the support conversations even are yet so it's hard to have a definite opinion, but assuming that the same sex conversations differ a bit from the opposite sex ones, I'd probably want the localization to keep that, even if it does result in the tired "but we're both girls!" yuri cliche.

[Darkdragoon324]

I thought Rhajat's support chain with FCorrin was far superior to MCorrin and was very upset that Treehouse was too damn lazy to localize it even though they still did with the Corrinsexuals. It's TWO more supports Treehouse, would that really have freaking killed you?

[firewitch912]

I heavily agree that the different gender supports should hopefully be different. If they're identical I feel like it just erases the gender of Byleth, and thus erases their queerness in some of those situations. Also, in previous games most of the supports differed between the different genders to my memory.

The only reason I could possibly see a positive in having them identical is that it would allow for a potential mod that allows for more same-sex supports that have fully supported voice acting like the rest of the game.

Edit: I think that even the "but we're both girls" could work fine if it was played well as something about potential homophobia from others rather than "I didn't know same-sex relationships existed." But ultimately I'll take what we can get. I just don't want the blatant queerness of the characters to be erased or turned into a joke.

Edited July 13, 2019 by firewitch912

[Content Respecter]

10 minutes ago, Mad_Scientist said:

Also the Rhajet/male avatar support is kinda creepy because it highlights the bizarre time dilation thing and that fact that the avatar has known every child character from the moment they were, well, children, and all their early interactions were between that of a child and an adult..

I hadn't looked at the Japanese M!Corrin/Rhajat support until today and it's a strange, bad angle. Fates was in such an odd position of being written to appeal to an audience brought in by niche fanservice that was localized out of Awakening, while being translated to appeal to the fans of that localization.

17 minutes ago, Mad_Scientist said:

assuming that the same sex conversations differ a bit from the opposite sex ones, I'd probably want the localization to keep that, even if it does result in the tired "but we're both girls!" yuri cliche.

I tend to agree, I'd like a work with more character even if it's a mess.

[nyainou]

I just.. want it to be treated normally.

Straight relationships and gay ones aren't the same. There are differences, and those differences has to be respected. But.. those differences don't make one or the other strange, you know? I think.. that two guys should just be allowed to be in love with each other. 

It also needs to be understood that some people engage with their sexuality differently. It made sense for M!Corrin to say something to the effects of "But we're both guys, you know?" because he's lived a sheltered life. Pulling it out of context it's abhorrent and unthinkable but.. no, it made sense. Meanwhile, Niles, who has ton of experience, is confident in who he is. And M!Corrin's uncertainty doesn't necessarily mean he's homophobic, or that homophobia is even a thing in Fates' universe.. it just means he was never taught two men could love each other. Sometimes, that's just how it is. 

More same-sex affection, more respect for LGB characters, more respectful handling of LGB characters.. If the people writing them act like its weird then its going to come across poorly. 

I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly, but basically.. It depends on the context. If, characterization-wise, it makes sense for the character to express some uncertainty.. fine. But if there's no reason for it, don't do it. 

[Content Respecter]

8 hours ago, firewitch912 said:

If they're identical I feel like it just erases the gender of Byleth, and thus erases their queerness in some of those situations. Also, in previous games most of the supports differed between the different genders to my memory.

Leaving dialogue unchanged comes off as a gesture at consumer choice rather than a representation of queerness. It's more like hitting a switch than approaching an idea.

I know that New Mystery had pretty significant gendered differences in most of its supports, but that the localized versions of Awakening and Fates had nearly identical ones. I'm not sure how the original versions of those two handled it, as far as C-A goes.

[firewitch912]

22 minutes ago, Content Respecter said:

Leaving dialogue unchanged comes off as a gesture at consumer choice rather than a representation of queerness. It's more like hitting a switch than approaching an idea.

I know that New Mystery had pretty significant gendered differences in most of its supports, but that the localized versions of Awakening and Fates had nearly identical ones. I'm not sure how the original versions of those two handled it, as far as C-A goes.

I just checked the english versions of Rhajat and Niles, and they're identical the whole way through. There might be a minor detail I missed but they seem like they just copied one to the other. Ironically I checked Soleil, and she has wildly different supports.

It feels almost insulting if they just copy it, but ultimately it's still some form of queerness, even if the dialogue doesn't make it explicit. They could go farther and do better, but it remains to be seen.

[Content Respecter]

27 minutes ago, firewitch912 said:

Ironically I checked Soleil, and she has wildly different supports.

Completely slipped my mind, but english-language Fates does have completely different supports for a few characters based on Corrin's gender, which makes it stranger that the Rhajat variant wasn't preserved. Leaves me with no idea why that decision was made or if it'd be repeated.

[magenero29]

On 7/13/2019 at 6:22 AM, Content Respecter said:

We can generally agree on a desire to see same-sex romantic supports, but are we asking for a copy-pasted variation of their heterosexual equivalents or a potentially awkward acknowledgement of their peculiarity? And are we motivated by a desire for gratification, for socially responsible representation, or to better understand these authors' perspectives on homosexuality?

Hmm, interesting questions. 

While it's true that Rhajat's original S support was based on genre convention with a lot of heterocentric bias... We also can't deny that usually a lot gay people have at least once thought "if i was born as the opposite sex, I wouldn't be having these difficulties and I could date so an so" and "If I was heterosexual, I wouldn't be having these feelings" because we live in a heteronormative world. Same thing can be applied to Niles S support, although I find that one to be worse than Tharja's because Corrin's comment really irks me and the feeling from the conversation is that Corrin didn't seem to be in love with Niles until he confessed to him.

So for your first question - perhaps a balance of both would perhaps be a good idea. However the acknowledgement of the fact that it's a same sex relationship has to be done in a better way than it was done in Fates. Although, I am a bit fine with a copy-paste of the heterosexual equivalents. All I ask, is that they at least put in a better effort with the same-sex S supports.

Second - To me I desire both gratification and a better and more responsible representation. Understand the authors perspective on homosexuality is however a big bonus, since we can see if there has been some evolution of the (potentially) straight Japanese game designers perspectives on LGBT issues and thus create some expectations for the representation in future games. Also, perhaps we might not only get the designers perspectives on LGBT people, but also the perspectives of Japanese people - after all, if the developers mess up the gay relationships we can see if they faced some backslash from Japanese consumers.  

EDIT - I would also like to add that I will definitely not be happy if male Byleth only has one same sex romance option, while female Byleth has at least 5.

Edit - I want to give Nintendo and IS systems a big F YOU for the male same sex options. What kind of joke is that? Alos becomes an option after his wife was fridged? WTF 

Edited July 14, 2019 by magenero29