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Optimal Class Lines


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9 hours ago, Nio said:

I would really like to know if Great Knight needs riding levels to get. If its only the Armor skill, then lots of units can get it easy, but if it needs Armor+Riding, it would be a complete pain.

Depending on that, im gonna make Edelgard a Great Knight or a Wyvern Lord, the last one would be badass for her tho.

I think I will make Edelgard a war master because I just remembered great knights and wyvern lords cannot use gauntlets.  And, since Edle's strength is through the roof, x2 attacks from gauntlets could synergize really well with her!

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4 minutes ago, kremelover said:

I think I will make Edelgard a war master because I just remembered great knights and wyvern lords cannot use gauntlets.  And, since Edle's strength is through the roof, x2 attacks from gauntlets could synergize really well with her!

Isn't War Master sex locked?

I probably try to get my Byleth to be a War Master down the line, depending on how/if i still can use his special weapon that is.

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20 minutes ago, Lord of Riva said:

Isn't War Master sex locked?

I probably try to get my Byleth to be a War Master down the line, depending on how/if i still can use his special weapon that is.

If it is, then I'll make her a dancer.

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18 hours ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

We have absolutely no evidence for lower classes having high stat caps, though. 

Actually we have:

0tvtK83l.png

E.g. Hilda's STR bar is only ~20% filled with 10 strength so the cap is around 50 for her basic Noble class.

It's not perfect evidence of course.

 

Edited by Lusankya
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9 minutes ago, Lusankya said:

E.g. Hilda's STR bar is only ~20% filled with 10 strength so the cap is around 50 for her basic Noble class.

It's not perfect evidence of course.

The caps for all her stats except HP and Mov appear to be about 50.

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That feels more like an interface statement than it is a character/class statement. 50 being the cap in each non-HP stat is about what I'd expect, but not in each stat for each character/class. (HP is the only stat that generally goes 60-80 as a cap while the others stop at 40-60.)

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I have a few doubts regarding gauntlets. Assuming they're only brave on the player phase, and that they're hard locked to 1 range, they sound absolutely terrible on the enemy phase. And the best player phase units (mounted ones) are locked out of using them.

Not sure how much I'll actually use them outside of early on when it'll likely be a bit difficult to secure ORKOs without them.

Edit:Also i doubt Great Knight has any riding requirement as there haven't been any cases of a class requiring a skill it doesn't support.

Edited by colossus86
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17 hours ago, Landjager said:

This is a really neat spreadsheet! Thanks for making it @Von Ithipathachai!

A few things I've been thinking about though:

It is unlikely that classes will have any stat caps at all. The class system thus far has been shown to be extremely similar to Echoes where stat caps are exclusively tied to characters. Therefore, any class is viable late game from a purely stat based comparison, as no matter what class a character is in, they will have the same stats. In fact, I'd say there is a 50/50 chance Commoner/Noble will be the strongest class in the game. In Bravely Default, the Freelancer job (that game's equivalent of the Commoner/Noble) is the default starting class of every character. It is a jack of all trades, master of none job that is almost entirely nonviable. However, it has a unique passive ability that boosts all of the character's stats by 1% for every job they have mastered. If a character masters every single job, they will gain a whopping 24% bonus to very single stat while in the Freelancer job, turning them from a master of none to a master of everything. I'm thinking if you master the Commoner/Noble class in TH, you will unlock a similar skill that boosts the characters stats relative to how many classes they have mastered. If that is the case, The Commoner/Noble could become viable again late game and maybe even as early as the mid game for some characters.

As far as class line “optimization” goes, I’d say it’s still a bit too early to tell. If I had to make a guess though, I would say it will be more about what stats you want a character to grow in, and less about what skills will help them get to their “ideal” master class faster. For instance, having Felix, who is shaping up to be one of the fastest characters in the game, waste time in Cavalier/Paladin, two of the slowest classes in the game, just so he can reach Bow Knight faster seems very counterproductive. Is getting to Bow Knight immediately really worth crippling his speed? If instead you trained him in things like Thief, Swordmaster, or Savant, and then at the very end you trained up his skills to have at least a 50% chance of passing the Paladin exam, you would probably be much better off. He’d still have access to all the same weapons as a Bow Knight, and probably the same movement too. So you are trading the Bow Knight’s class skills and a few extra Advanced Seals for much higher speed. That path seems more worth it to me. This strategy is dependent on classes not affecting stat caps, but honestly, that is the way it seems it will go.

I dunno. For starters, Bravely Default is a completely different game. Second, I'm not entirely convinced Freelancer would be better than every other class after maxing out everything thanks to arms aptitude being a thing, among other factors. Anyway, going back to 3H, what would really matter is bases and growths. There's also the fact that Move tends to be tied to your class.

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Second, I'm not entirely convinced Freelancer would be better than every other class after maxing out everything thanks to arms aptitude being a thing, among other factors.

You're correct, it's not. Mostly stats aren't what makes classes good in BD; it's their abilities. The only good ability on Freelancer is Mimic, and that means you're sacrificing something like Dark Knight/Spellsword (which is an actually broken combo) for... something that's only good as a BP battery. And as you said, Fire Emblem is a completely different game; there's never been any "bonus" to using classes that are at lower promotion levels before, so starting this now, when the bonuses would likely be even worse thanks to Mov being an unchangeable stat and all the Masters being mounted, wouldn't make a lot of sense. 

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The class system thus far has been shown to be extremely similar to Echoes where stat caps are exclusively tied to characters. Therefore, any class is viable late game from a purely stat based comparison, as no matter what class a character is in, they will have the same stats. In fact, I'd say there is a 50/50 chance Commoner/Noble will be the strongest class in the game.

We know enough already to know this isn't true on several accounts:

1. Commoners only have 4 move

2.Classes might not have stat caps, but they do have base stats and/or growth modifiers, either way sitting in an early game class longer than you have to will be some degree of undesirable.

3. Class skills are a thing that exist

As for your other point, there's no evidence that spending time in a slow class will "cripple" your speed as we still don't know how strong the modifiers are or if they even exist. Each tier of unit seems to represent a significant leap in power to the lower one so it seems like the goal is set your unit up to always be able to tier jump the second it becomes available, while keeping them in a class that's still good in the present. We also have to consider that we have an entire party and a fixed pool of exp. Likely there's some number of students we can "afford" to be inefficient with while the rest have to stay were the blue arrows guide them, but that's not something we can tell ahead of time.

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16 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

2.Classes might not have stat caps, but they do have base stats and/or growth modifiers, either way sitting in an early game class longer than you have to will be some degree of undesirable.

We dont know this. I mean, classes would probably have growth modifiers, but you cant say we know this cause we dont.

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1 minute ago, Nio said:

We dont know this. I mean, classes would probably have growth modifiers, but you cant say we know this cause we dont.

Based on the classes we've been given having stat webs, they have to have base stats, growth modifiers, or both. Otherwise there's nothing to base the grid on.

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Just now, colossus86 said:

Based on the classes we've been given having stat webs, they have to have base stats, growth modifiers, or both. Otherwise there's nothing to base the grid on.

I know what you mean and i agree, it has to be one or both, but we cant take that as a fact, not right now. We would know in a couple days tho.

I do gotta say, in one of the previews, a persona had a Mercenary Dorothea and she had great speed and good strenght, so it almost certainly the case.

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20 hours ago, Landjager said:

...I'm thinking if you master the Commoner/Noble class in TH, you will unlock a similar skill that boosts the characters stats relative to how many classes they have mastered. If that is the case...

Mastering Noble/Commoner seems to give [ HP +5 ] as a Skill Ability.

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We know base stats change with class changing (it is a part of the interface when you're on the test screen to show the stat totals at the bottom, both current and new).

It is a safe assumption that they are doing growth rates = character growth rates + class growth rates, but there is a small margin for this not being the case.

Not enough of a margin to say that Commoner/Noble is a useful late game class, but a margin.

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Commoner/noble is already ruled out for endgame because of their 4 mov imo. Also based on their descriptions, they may also cripple mages since they can only use ‘some’ magic whatever that implies. 

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Regardless of how viable they are compared to other classes, it could be interesting to do/see a noble/commoner only run. On that note, I'm curious if any of the knights/professors have one of the special classes available. Or really if they have any lower tiered classes unlocked at all actually

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2 hours ago, colossus86 said:

We know enough already to know this isn't true on several accounts:

1. Commoners only have 4 move

2.Classes might not have stat caps, but they do have base stats and/or growth modifiers, either way sitting in an early game class longer than you have to will be some degree of undesirable.

3. Class skills are a thing that exist

As for your other point, there's no evidence that spending time in a slow class will "cripple" your speed as we still don't know how strong the modifiers are or if they even exist. Each tier of unit seems to represent a significant leap in power to the lower one so it seems like the goal is set your unit up to always be able to tier jump the second it becomes available, while keeping them in a class that's still good in the present. We also have to consider that we have an entire party and a fixed pool of exp. Likely there's some number of students we can "afford" to be inefficient with while the rest have to stay were the blue arrows guide them, but that's not something we can tell ahead of time.

Um, the statement you quoted isn't mine at all. In addition, I consider it completely false.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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20 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I was not aware of this.  It may help with getting those tough-to-reach classes.

 Well, it's only an maximum of getting 3 more points when tutoring with weapons, +2 in a movement-related seminar, and getting ~50% more combat XP. 

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39 minutes ago, Azz said:

Commoner/noble is already ruled out for endgame because of their 4 mov imo. Also based on their descriptions, they may also cripple mages since they can only use ‘some’ magic whatever that implies. 

All magic classes we know the class skills for have a skill that increases use quantities. I imagine that being stuck at the base level of uses is exceedingly detrimental to progression.

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22 minutes ago, Jayvee94 said:

For the purpose of calculations, how many rounds of battle on average does each student experience?

Of that, I'm uncertain.  Your mileage will definitely vary there.

This will probably be a major obstacle to determining the fastest Master class, as Skill EXP can come from a number of different sources which do not follow the same rules.

For attacking and instruction, it's a clean 50% increase/decrease (depending on proficiency) in Skill EXP gained with no Skill EXP bonuses from class.  But for group tasks the increase/decrease levels are not known, and for weekday lessons it may be only a roughly 14% increase/decrease.

I'm also unsure about how much being in a certain class increases Skill EXP gain for the weapon types it specializes in.

Edited by Von Ithipathachai
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20 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Of that, I'm uncertain.  Your mileage will definitely vary there.

This will probably be a major obstacle to determining the fastest Master class, as Skill EXP can come from a number of different sources which do not follow the same rules.

For attacking and instruction, it's a clean 50% increase/decrease in Skill EXP gained with no Skill EXP bonuses from class.  But for group tasks the increase/decrease levels are not known, and for weekday lessons it may be only a roughly 14% increase/decrease.

I'm also unsure about how much being in a certain class increases Skill EXP gain for the weapon types it specializes in.

I'm concerned with the shear difficulty of qualifying for Master Classes, especially for Claude, now that Wyvern Lord also requires C in Lances, according to u/iamRussFrushtick. Upon closer inspection however, E to C only requires 300. Compare this to E to A, which needs 1320. So, I recon that Claude will manage to reach C in lances, by the way of weekday lessons, before the rest of the requirements.

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