(SPOILERS) Three Houses General Spoilers Thread

[singularity]

unsure if this has been asked yet, but any unfought characters on each path if we didn’t recruit them beforehand?

[genagi]

6 hours ago, ShadowAUS said:

Thought I would also stop lurking and come in to agree with both of these posts. Bit of a ramble/mini review/disorganised brain--fart below with my thoughts. I anyone has any questions about the game (especially the BE and BL routes or general game play questions) feel free to ask. Spoilers, obviously.

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I've had the game for about a week (with 55 hours in game time) now and have had the chance to finish it nearly twice (once with BE/Edel and nearly through another run with BL/Dimi) and the biggest criticism I have with the game is that it's pacing is all over the place. The character writing, lore and overall plot are all excellently done and possibly the best in the series but the way the story is told through the game doesn't flow particularly well in my opinion, the midgame and ending both seeming especially abrupt. The build up and early game is well done but once you get to the point where your father is killed the pacing started feeling wonky and very quick.

For reference, I beat my first play through (Normal/Classic, my current in progress BL playthrough is Hard/Classic) of BE in 32 hours without rushing and getting all my characters to level 40+, max support, all available paralogues and all rare enemy (monster) battles (note that I didn't recruit student characters outside my house, only the neutral characters as I wanted to leave the other students for their respective playthroughs) and I feel that it REALLY needed more chapters post timeskip. There are 18 (19 if you count the prologue) chapters in BE's route, 13 pre-timeskip (though basically 12 in practice) but only 5 after and you REALLY feel like they had to work to cram the whole war/second half of the game in those 5 chapters with any kind of satifaction. The BL route so far has more chapters (I think it has a total of 21) and the pacing is quite a bit better but still not great (and I imagine the ending will still not be satisying), I'm not sure about GD and Church. Regardless I feel that it really needed 12 chapters (for a total of 24/25) for the second half of the game to feel satisfying and not rushed, at least in the BE route. The ending especially is really abrupt and it really could have used a post-game chapter. I honestly feel like Fates does that "mult-route/side" type of story better (especially when it comes to the endings) and I'm pretty certain that 3H would be a much better game from a story perspective if it didn't have the 3 house mechanic but rather a more normal RPG story structure.

I really only have 2 other major critiques of 3H, the first being that combat is pretty easy, even playing on Hard I honestly could (and do quite often on my current NG+ playthrough) let the auto battle do half of the fights in the game. The second being that a lot of the added mechanics (fishing, gardening and also kind of quests as they're generally really shallow and are only there to give you some renown and basic items) are kind of pointless unless you really want to min max (they're also really shallow systems which doesn't help), the problem with that is that the game isn't really hard enough to warrant it as you can beat hard even without the NG+ benefits) without worrying about stats at all as long as you're keeping on top of your levels/gear to a reasonable degree, this will probably change when Lunatic is added but it still wouldn't change how shallow fishing/gardening/cooking is. You'll also quickly realise that if this game didn't have the academy exploration portion and was structured like a traditional FE it would be rather short as the majority of the game is spent running around the academy looking for lost items (and who they belong to), doing fetch quests, having couple of sentence conversations with the characters, having tea with characters etc.

I overall did really like the game, despite the combat not being difficult it is really fun, the support conversations, characters and lore as a whole are EXCELLENTLY written and are by far the part of the game I look forward to the most and the presentation is mostly great with some performance issues (I mostly noticed these docked) somewhat holding it back. But I still feel like it kind of has a lot of wasted potential that comes down to trying to be overly ambitious with the fleshed out and entirely different routes and the new academy mechanics without having either the time/money/manpower to fully see it through. I hope we get a 5th chapter DLC that kind of ties the game together which is not something I thought I would say as I generally dislike true routes, especially as DLC.

My advice for those wondering which route to play first would be to not go for the BE route but rather BL(so far I would say that BL is a pretty big improvement story wise over BE but I haven't finished it yet)/GD/Church as I was honestly rather let down by the second half of it (hell, I was rather let down by Edelgard's plan as a whole as I found her actions and logic pretty flawed but this is personal opinion) even if I loved the characters (Hubert ended up having some of my favourite support links in the game when I honestly went into it expecting to dislike him) and really enjoyed Edelgard's character and support links a lot.

 

Thank you for this review and I really like it. If you have time and would like to, please update the review when you finished the BL routes and the other two maybe. Looking forward to your review on the rest of game.

[Nio]

So just killed Claude in Edelgards route. Not sure if i should... Restarted the battle and he just say he would get out of Fodlan. I want to know, would he ever come back again and... do something? Like join me or something like that? No big spoiler please just want to know what save file to use (cause the one i spared him i just rushed to see what happened). Please tag me so i dont read other spoilers.

[MetalAmethyst]

Has anyone figured out if there are certain enemies (not counting students) that can be recruited or not?

[MrPerson0]

Does anyone know the location of the Experience and Knowledge Gems?

Edited July 28, 2019 by MrPerson0

[0 Def Cleric]

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

Does anyone know the location of the Experience and Knowledge Gems?

Knowledge gem shows up in the Sothis paralogue at the Red Canyon, in the treasure chest. No idea about the experience gem. 

[Tenzen12]

2 hours ago, Nio said:

So just killed Claude in Edelgards route. Not sure if i should... Restarted the battle and he just say he would get out of Fodlan. I want to know, would he ever come back again and... do something? Like join me or something like that? No big spoiler please just want to know what save file to use (cause the one i spared him i just rushed to see what happened). Please tag me so i dont read other spoilers.

No he is gone forever. Living on continent ruled by people who doesn't kill other that much. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Tenzen12

[SSbardock84]

Black Eagles route

Spoiler

Man I felt bad about Dimitri dying, but Rhea freaking deserved it. I didn’t like her since the start of the game and so many things were pointing towards her being evil. I don’t think it’s possible, but I hope she dies in all of the routes.

 

[Jayvee94]

1 hour ago, SSbardock84 said:

Black Eagles route

  Reveal hidden contents

Man I felt bad about Dimitri dying, but Rhea freaking deserved it. I didn’t like her since the start of the game and so many things were pointing towards her being evil. I don’t think it’s possible, but I hope she dies in all of the routes.

 

She will if you don't S support her

Spoiler

on the Church Route

.

[MrMetroid]

1 hour ago, SSbardock84 said:

Black Eagles route

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Man I felt bad about Dimitri dying, but Rhea freaking deserved it. I didn’t like her since the start of the game and so many things were pointing towards her being evil. I don’t think it’s possible, but I hope she dies in all of the routes.

 

Spoiler

The ironic thing about that, though? It's that Rhea's not in fact evil, anymore then Edelgard is. And to explain that, I'm gonna have to go deep into spoiler territory, so anybody not wishing to be too badly spoiled? Do not read past this point.

OK; here we go.

During the Church route, you find out that Rhea isn't in full command of her actions - Seiros is. It turns out that Rhea is actually in the same boat as Byleth - much as he is the reincarnation/vessel for their shared ancestor Sothis, Rhea is the vessel for Sothis' daughter;  the Church's namesake savior Seiros. And while Seiros was deeply traumatized by the loss of her mother and the near-genocide of her kind at the hands of Nemesis, she's not actually an inherent psychopath, much less willfully evil - rather, it's actually implied that a lot of Seiros' madness isn't quite willing but rather the result of her dragon-instincts  eroding her sanity, which is something of a recurrent theme in FE games (i.e., Anankos in Fates or Duma in Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia). Dragons or manakates, be it from their long lives or their own power corrupting them, usually end up going mad as their draconic instincts (namely the impulse to hunt and rage) gradually go out of control - and in Seiros' case, it was augmented by the horrid trauma of her race's near-genocide. Whenever she's actually fully lucid, Rhea expresses remorse over Seiros' muddled behavior and even acknowledges in both the Blue Lions and the Church routes (if she survives in the latter one, that is) that she's no longer fit to lead anything, if her handing the role of archbishop and/or ruler over to Byleth in both routes (and willingly at that) is any indication. 

In Seiros' case, her mind's erosion functions almost like alzheimer's disease, gradually making her unable to distinguish past from present - to the point of Serios sometimes even being consumed by old grudges Rhea has long let go of. This in turn causes Rhea to flash back to/get trapped in reliving/being overwhelmed by Seiros' most traumatic memories and emotions - chief among them being the loss of her family, her hatred of Nemesis and "those who slither in the dark" (i.e., the people who masterminded her race's genocide and whom Edelgard briefly worked with to become Emperor), and her desperate desire to have her mother Sothis back due to guilt she feels over the latter's death - which in turn drive Rhea to make rather poor choices. Case in point being the Black Eagles route, where Byleth's possessing both her mother Sothis' spirit and the Sword of the Creators becomes a major PTSD trigger for Seiros due to reminding her of Nemesis (AKA, the man who slaughtered her kind), eventually overwhelming Rhea's sense of restraint and causing Seiros to go berserk. And the more time passes, the more intense these lapses in judgement get - to the point that last time it happened, Seiros tried to basically clone Sothis, with said clone going on to become Byleth's mother. Something distinctly different from characters like Edelgard, who actually made willful choices in a sound state of mind verses Rhea's sanity being increasingly muddled and/or compromised by what's basically the age-induced dementia of her ancestor's spirit. 

Rhea's actions in the Black Eagles route are born of the despair and anguish from having everything she worked for be destroyed, which drive her utterly off the deep end and give Seiros free reign to rampage - especially after, as mentioned earlier, Byleth triggers her off by reminding her of Nemesis. Hell, ironically enough, Edelgard herself makes a similar choice in the Blue Lions route - she willfully mutates herself into an outright monster to kill Dimitri and Byleth when they siege her Empire's capital, should they destroy all that she herself worked for - though the difference is that in Rhea's case there's a literal mental instability at play (case in point being how she starts to flat-out confuse Byleth for either Sothis or Nemesis depending on the route) verses Edelgard's being flat-out ruthless. Moreover, a lot of Edelgard's hate for her turns out to be misplaced - she assumes the Crest System and the Church's doctored version of history were created to control and manipulate mankind, but it turns out Rhea complied with it for the complete opposite reason; she was trying to ensure "those that slither in the dark" were unable to control and manipulate humanity, in addition to hiding/protecting the last of her kind (i.e., Flayn and Seteth); even Seiros isn't really guilty of manipulation, only caring about finding a way to revive Sothis. 

To make a long story short; Rhea may not be an entirely stable person to be running a group and it often shows, but she's far from being "evil" - it's the spirit she houses who's mind isn't sound and even said spirit, obsessed as she is over Sothis, isn't wholly evil as opposed to maddened by grief and trauma.

 

[Timlugia]

Spoiler

I also find it funny how Edelgard accuses church manipulate the people, then herself immediately used lies to support her points for war (that "Church created kingdom and alliance to weaken the empire")

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Timlugia

[MrMetroid]

11 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

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I also find it funny how Edelgard accuses church manipulate the people, then herself immediately used lies to support her points for war (that "Church created kingdom and alliance to weaken the empire")

 

Spoiler

Well, it's because that part's technically not a lie - the Church did in fact help foster the creation of different factions; it's just that Edelgard was wrong about about that being intentional. The Church's goal (at least by the time of the games) is to try and guide mankind down a less antagonistic path, to monitor/seek out "those who slither in the dark",  to try and keep a lid on Seiros' madness and to limit the damage/conflicts caused by either Seiros' constant attempts to revive Sothis or the warmongering of "Those that slither in the dark".  In my understanding at least, the decay of the Adrestian Empire (Edelgard's home kingdom) and it's eventual splintering into the current three factions was basically a consequence of that, not an intentional goal -  so Edelgard would basically be "right for the wrong reasons." 

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by MrMetroid

[Onestep]

51 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

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I also find it funny how Edelgard accuses church manipulate the people, then herself immediately used lies to support her points for war (that "Church created kingdom and alliance to weaken the empire")

 

Spoiler

Well, she's not wholly wrong. The Church did negotiate the formation of both places, and their existence did weaken the Empire. Notably, they only did so AFTER the Empire completely failed to maintain control in said areas though, so it's hardly their fault.

Also, can I just mention how much TvTropes is annoying me right now? So much misinformation being posted on the characters page.

[Jayvee94]

19 minutes ago, Onestep said:

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Well, she's not wholly wrong. The Church did negotiate the formation of both places, and their existence did weaken the Empire. Notably, they only did so AFTER the Empire completely failed to maintain control in said areas though, so it's hardly their fault.

Also, can I just mention how much TvTropes is annoying me right now? So much misinformation being posted on the characters page.

Which informations are actually false?

[Onestep]

Just now, Jayvee94 said:

Which informations are actually false?

Spoiler

 

First, the constant mentioning of Byleth being Sothis's reincarnation. They're not. Sothis's soul and mind exist separately from Byleth's within her Crest Stone until they fuse, at which point they're still have separate, if linked souls. They're basically Robin and Grima, Mk2. The Demonic Possession trope (A subverted case, since Sothis is not a demon) is a much better example of what Rhea intended for Byleth. 

Secondly, that Hilda cannot be taken from the Golden Deer. She can be. We've seen a screenshot of her recruitment choices, and she has endings outside of the Deer one, like being able to marry Byleth when he becomes Archbishop (The Blue Lions path).

Thirdly, that Marianne has Faith as a Hidden Talent. It's an out and out strength. On that note, Marianne is not The Stoic, since she displays emotions regularly. Those emotions just tend towards fear and concern. She's a textbook Shrinking Violet.

And so on. There's more, I'm sure, I just can't remember them off the top of my head

 

 

[MrMetroid]

Just now, Onestep said:

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First, the constant mentioning of Byleth being Sothis's reincarnation.  They're not. Sothis's soul and mind exist separately from Byleth's within her Crest Stone until they fuse, at which point they're still have separate, if linked souls. They're basically Robin and Grima, Mk2. The Demonic Possession trope (A subverted case, since Sothis is not a demon) is a much better example of what Rhea intended for Byleth. 

Secondly, that Hilda cannot be taken from the Golden Deer. She can be. We've seen a screenshot of her recruitment choices, and she has endings outside of the Deer one, like being able to marry Byleth when he becomes Archbishop (The Blue Lions path).

Thirdly, that Marianne has Faith as a Hidden Talent. It's an out and out strength. On that note, Marianne is not The Stoic, since she displays emotions regularly. Those emotions just tend towards fear and concern. She's a textbook Shrinking Violet.

And so on. There's more, I'm sure, I just can't remember them off the top of my head

 

Spoiler

For the first one, I actually don't recall that being what was said - not in the articles I read at least. I think it's more stated that Byleth was intended, by Seiros/Rhea, to be Sothis' reincarnation and that the two's being linked together was the result of attempting to force a "Demonic Possession" instance on either Byleth or their parent. They may not actually be Sothis' reincarnation. but that's most definitely how they are treated by much of the cast. It's more a matter of referencing how other characters in-game regard them, as opposed to absolute truism - more a matter of context than being flat-out "misinformation". 

For the second one, that might just be about whether she's recruitable by default - if you need to trigger some kind of special circumstances to do it, or if it's only possible in a select route but impossible in another, then it might not be getting counted as a general aspect. Could just be that someone failed to make that distinction. 

For the third one, you're talking about Marianne post character development - prior to Byleth's arrival, Marianne is described verbatim as being The Stoic; it's how she's seen/perceived/(mis)interpreted by her classmates, with only the few that know her personally ever recognizing the "Shrinking Violet" aspect (hell, Claude - the class' head - flat-out tells Byleth in the beginning that he doesn't even remember if he's ever heard Marianne speak, much less know enough to differentiate "Shrinking Violet" from "The Stoic"). Same as the first one; it's more about how others in-game viewed her as opposed to being a definite case - I think they call that "playing with the trope," in that instance, and it'd be more a matter of whether that was recognized as opposed to it being flat-out wrong. 

Long story short: It might not actually be "so much misinformation" - it might just be a matter of context or interpretation. 

 

[Onestep]

8 hours ago, MrMetroid said:

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For the first one, I actually don't recall that being what was said - not in the articles I read at least. I think it's more stated that Byleth was intended, by Seiros/Rhea, to be Sothis' reincarnation and that the two's being linked together was the result of attempting to force a "Demonic Possession" instance on either Byleth or their parent. They may not actually be Sothis' reincarnation. but that's most definitely how they are treated by much of the cast. It's more a matter of referencing how other characters in-game regard them, as opposed to absolute truism - more a matter of context than being flat-out "misinformation". 

For the second one, that might just be about whether she's recruitable by default - if you need to trigger some kind of special circumstances to do it, or if it's only possible in a select route but impossible in another, then it might not be getting counted as a general aspect. Could just be that someone failed to make that distinction. 

For the third one, you're talking about Marianne post character development - prior to Byleth's arrival, Marianne is described verbatim as being The Stoic; it's how she's seen/perceived/(mis)interpreted by her classmates, with only the few that know her personally ever recognizing the "Shrinking Violet" aspect (hell, Claude - the class' head - flat-out tells Byleth in the beginning that he doesn't even remember if he's ever heard Marianne speak, much less know enough to differentiate "Shrinking Violet" from "The Stoic"). Same as the first one; it's more about how others in-game viewed her as opposed to being a definite case - I think they call that "playing with the trope," in that instance, and it'd be more a matter of whether that was recognized as opposed to it being flat-out wrong. 

Long story short: It might not actually be "so much misinformation" - it might just be a matter of context or interpretation. 

 

Spoiler

 

It desperately needs to be reworded then. If Byleth is NOT Sothis's reincarnation, but is treated as such by the cast, then that needs to be noted, and better than it is. But that itself is wrong, as most of the cast do NOT treat Byleth as Sothis's reincarnation. Rhea/Seiros are deranged, and their plan is clearly Demonic Possession from an outside perspective. She clearly thinks of Byleth as a vessel for Sothis. Indech refers to Byleth as Sothi's 'incarnation' not 'reincarnation' and the two are very different things.  

Sothis herself, who would be the authority on the matter, explicitly refers to her and Byleth's 'souls'. Plural. That is, they have separate souls and clearly have separate minds and consciousness. They are separate individuals. Reincarnation is not the trope that should be used, and if it is used, the two words directly after the trope heading should not be 'Of Sothis'. when this is clearly not the case. Tropes are not meant to mislead the reader, quite the opposite. The writer on hte trope page may have intended to say what we're saying, but they did not do so clearly. Demonic Possession would be the better trope, and the other aspects of Byleth and Sothis's relationship should exist under different tropes, like Fusion Dance and Physical god.

Mutually Exclusive Party Members means precisely that. If Hilda is recruitable on routes with Dimitri and Edelgard, then she is not mutually exclusive to them. If she is mutually exclusive until certain requirements are met, then this should be noted. As it stood, this was out and out wrong. Someone seems to have change it though.

Marianne is a Shrinking Violet. From the Stoic page itself: The Stoic is not necessarily The Quiet One. While the Stoic may be low key and quiet, more often than not he's just as talkative as anyone else. 

Marianne displays nervousness in every interaction, and even in her introduction from Hilda, Hilda goads her into talking, and she responds hesitantly. She herself is a shrinking violet from the audience's omniescent perspective. That should be the initial trope we see. If you want to say that she perceived to be the stoic by her classmates, then you could add that on to the end of the sentence. Again, tropes are not meant to mislead. 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Onestep

[Onestep]

Double Post

Edited July 28, 2019 by Onestep

[Chairman Meow]

5 hours ago, MrMetroid said:

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The ironic thing about that, though? It's that Rhea's not in fact evil, anymore then Edelgard is. And to explain that, I'm gonna have to go deep into spoiler territory, so anybody not wishing to be too badly spoiled? Do not read past this point.

OK; here we go.

During the Church route, you find out that Rhea isn't in full command of her actions - Seiros is. It turns out that Rhea is actually in the same boat as Byleth - much as he is the reincarnation/vessel for their shared ancestor Sothis, Rhea is the vessel for Sothis' daughter;  the Church's namesake savior Seiros. And while Seiros was deeply traumatized by the loss of her mother and the near-genocide of her kind at the hands of Nemesis, she's not actually an inherent psychopath, much less willfully evil - rather, it's actually implied that a lot of Seiros' madness isn't quite willing but rather the result of her dragon-instincts  eroding her sanity, which is something of a recurrent theme in FE games (i.e., Anankos in Fates or Duma in Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia). Dragons or manakates, be it from their long lives or their own power corrupting them, usually end up going mad as their draconic instincts (namely the impulse to hunt and rage) gradually go out of control - and in Seiros' case, it was augmented by the horrid trauma of her race's near-genocide. Whenever she's actually fully lucid, Rhea expresses remorse over Seiros' muddled behavior and even acknowledges in both the Blue Lions and the Church routes (if she survives in the latter one, that is) that she's no longer fit to lead anything, if her handing the role of archbishop and/or ruler over to Byleth in both routes (and willingly at that) is any indication. 

In Seiros' case, her mind's erosion functions almost like alzheimer's disease, gradually making her unable to distinguish past from present - to the point of Serios sometimes even being consumed by old grudges Rhea has long let go of. This in turn causes Rhea to flash back to/get trapped in reliving/being overwhelmed by Seiros' most traumatic memories and emotions - chief among them being the loss of her family, her hatred of Nemesis and "those who slither in the dark" (i.e., the people who masterminded her race's genocide and whom Edelgard briefly worked with to become Emperor), and her desperate desire to have her mother Sothis back due to guilt she feels over the latter's death - which in turn drive Rhea to make rather poor choices. Case in point being the Black Eagles route, where Byleth's possessing both her mother Sothis' spirit and the Sword of the Creators becomes a major PTSD trigger for Seiros due to reminding her of Nemesis (AKA, the man who slaughtered her kind), eventually overwhelming Rhea's sense of restraint and causing Seiros to go berserk. And the more time passes, the more intense these lapses in judgement get - to the point that last time it happened, Seiros tried to basically clone Sothis, with said clone going on to become Byleth's mother. Something distinctly different from characters like Edelgard, who actually made willful choices in a sound state of mind verses Rhea's sanity being increasingly muddled and/or compromised by what's basically the age-induced dementia of her ancestor's spirit. 

Rhea's actions in the Black Eagles route are born of the despair and anguish from having everything she worked for be destroyed, which drive her utterly off the deep end and give Seiros free reign to rampage - especially after, as mentioned earlier, Byleth triggers her off by reminding her of Nemesis. Hell, ironically enough, Edelgard herself makes a similar choice in the Blue Lions route - she willfully mutates herself into an outright monster to kill Dimitri and Byleth when they siege her Empire's capital, should they destroy all that she herself worked for - though the difference is that in Rhea's case there's a literal mental instability at play (case in point being how she starts to flat-out confuse Byleth for either Sothis or Nemesis depending on the route) verses Edelgard's being flat-out ruthless. Moreover, a lot of Edelgard's hate for her turns out to be misplaced - she assumes the Crest System and the Church's doctored version of history were created to control and manipulate mankind, but it turns out Rhea complied with it for the complete opposite reason; she was trying to ensure "those that slither in the dark" were unable to control and manipulate humanity, in addition to hiding/protecting the last of her kind (i.e., Flayn and Seteth); even Seiros isn't really guilty of manipulation, only caring about finding a way to revive Sothis. 

To make a long story short; Rhea may not be an entirely stable person to be running a group and it often shows, but she's far from being "evil" - it's the spirit she houses who's mind isn't sound and even said spirit, obsessed as she is over Sothis, isn't wholly evil as opposed to maddened by grief and trauma.

lol I came across this exact comment on one of Collector Togami's videos too. Appreciate the detailed explanation!

 

[MetalAmethyst]

When do you unlock the Smithy?

[ShadowMario3]

15 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Does anyone know the location of the Experience and Knowledge Gems?

As @0 Def Cleric

mentioned already mentioned already, the Knowledge Gem is in the Sothis Paralogue in a chest. Experience Gem is held by an Archer in the Manuela and Hanneman Paralogue, which is I believe is available after you can start to recruit them.

Edited July 28, 2019 by ShadowMario3

[MrMetroid]

8 hours ago, Onestep said:

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It desperately needs to be reworded then. If Byleth is NOT Sothis's reincarnation, but is treated as such by the cast, then that needs to be noted, and better than it is. But that itself is wrong, as most of the cast do NOT treat Byleth as Sothis's reincarnation. Rhea/Seiros are deranged, and their plan is clearly Demonic Possession from an outside perspective. She clearly thinks of Byleth as a vessel for Sothis. Indech refers to Byleth as Sothi's 'incarnation' not 'reincarnation' and the two are very different things.  

Sothis herself, who would be the authority on the matter, explicitly refers to her and Byleth's 'souls'. Plural. That is, they have separate souls and clearly have separate minds and consciousness. They are separate individuals. Reincarnation is not the trope that should be used, and if it is used, the two words directly after the trope heading should not be 'Of Sothis'. when this is clearly not the case. Tropes are not meant to mislead the reader, quite the opposite. The writer on hte trope page may have intended to say what we're saying, but they did not do so clearly. Demonic Possession would be the better trope, and the other aspects of Byleth and Sothis's relationship should exist under different tropes, like Fusion Dance and Physical god.

Mutually Exclusive Party Members means precisely that. If Hilda is recruitable on routes with Dimitri and Edelgard, then she is not mutually exclusive to them. If she is mutually exclusive until certain requirements are met, then this should be noted. As it stood, this was out and out wrong. Someone seems to have change it though.

Marianne is a Shrinking Violet. From the Stoic page itself: The Stoic is not necessarily The Quiet One. While the Stoic may be low key and quiet, more often than not he's just as talkative as anyone else. 

Marianne displays nervousness in every interaction, and even in her introduction from Hilda, Hilda goads her into talking, and she responds hesitantly. She herself is a shrinking violet from the audience's omniescent perspective. That should be the initial trope we see. If you want to say that she perceived to be the stoic by her classmates, then you could add that on to the end of the sentence. Again, tropes are not meant to mislead. 

 

 

Spoiler

That feels more a matter of just being persnickety, IMHO - Byleth being intended as Sothis' actual reincarnation was how they ended up as they are, and Seiros in particular regards that as being the case regardless of if they are or aren't the same person. And last I checked, that was in fact how much of the cast regarded Byleth - Dimitri even flat-out stays that Byleth's awakened power is like the legends of old made flesh again. If the case of incarnation is taking someone dead and placing them into something living, that does classify as being "reincarnation", I think - term seems lose enough to still fit, given the contexts of how Byleth was treated and that they are in fact a descendent of Sothis. I mean, it honestly couldn't be called "Demonic Possession" when Sothis is neither a demon nor exerts direct control on Byleth's body or actions like Seiros does Rhea.

Furthermore, I again point out that if you need special requirements to do it rather than it being flat-out "mutually exclusive", than it's not really "out and out wrong" so much as misinterpreted; again, it feels like just being extremely persnickety for something like TvTropes.  

Also, like I said in an earlier comment, Rhea and Seiros are separate spirits/individuals - and Seiros most certainly doesn't see Byleth as just a vessel; they flat-out confuse them with Sothis at times, particularly in the end of the Church route when they directly call them "mother." Seiros treats Byleth's soul as nothing more than an obstacle or tool to use in reviving Sothis - any recognition of Byleth as an individual of their own is on Rhea's part, not Seiros'. The only time Seiros ever recognizes Byleth as separate from Sothis is in the Black Eagles route, where Byleth's opposing her with Edelgard causes a PTSD-like trigger in Seiros by reminding her of King Nemesis.  

And like I said before, what Marianne is (a "Shrinking Violet") is not necessarily what Marianne is seen/viewed by others as. Claude word-for-word states when first asked about her that she's "The Quiet One", to the point of failing to remember if he himself has ever heard her speak by that point - according to you, that does make her "The Stoic" in regards to how she behaved in class/interacted with her classmates, with her nature as a "Shrinking Violet" being the cause for that outward mask. Her being nervous when spoken to doesn't preclude that - if anything I think it actually augments that since she does (and to her classmates, did) in fact come across as "The Stoic" if she just doesn't talk (which it seems, for the most part, she doesn't until Byleth comes in and makes deliberate efforts to get her to open up). These two tropes can be mutually exclusive themselves, dude; all depends on context.

 

[Onestep]

5 minutes ago, MrMetroid said:

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That feels more a matter of just being persnickety, IMHO - Byleth being intended as Sothis' actual reincarnation was how they ended up as they are, and Seiros in particular regards that as being the case regardless of if they are or aren't the same person. And last I checked, that was in fact how much of the cast regarded Byleth - Dimitri even flat-out stays that Byleth's awakened power is like the legends of old made flesh again. If the case of incarnation is taking someone dead and placing them into something living, that does classify as being "reincarnation", I think - term seems lose enough to still fit, given the contexts of how Byleth was treated and that they are in fact a descendent of Sothis. I mean, it honestly couldn't be called "Demonic Possession" when Sothis is neither a demon nor exerts direct control on Byleth's body or actions like Seiros does Rhea.

Furthermore, I again point out that if you need special requirements to do it rather than it being flat-out "mutually exclusive", than it's not really "out and out wrong" so much as misinterpreted; again, it feels like just being extremely persnickety for something like TvTropes.  

Also, like I said in an earlier comment, Rhea and Seiros are separate spirits/individuals - and Seiros most certainly doesn't see Byleth as just a vessel; they flat-out confuse them with Sothis at times, particularly in the end of the Church route when they directly call them "mother." Seiros treats Byleth's soul as nothing more than an obstacle or tool to use in reviving Sothis - any recognition of Byleth as an individual of their own is on Rhea's part, not Seiros'. The only time Seiros ever recognizes Byleth as separate from Sothis is in the Black Eagles route, where Byleth's opposing her with Edelgard causes a PTSD-like trigger in Seiros by reminding her of King Nemesis.  

And like I said before, what Marianne is (a "Shrinking Violet") is not necessarily what Marianne is seen/viewed by others as. Claude word-for-word states when first asked about her that she's "The Quiet One", to the point of failing to remember if he himself has ever heard her speak by that point - according to you, that does make her "The Stoic" in regards to how she behaved in class/interacted with her classmates, with her nature as a "Shrinking Violet" being the cause for that outward mask. Her being nervous when spoken to doesn't preclude that - if anything I think it actually augments that since she does (and to her classmates, did) in fact come across as "The Stoic" if she just doesn't talk (which it seems, for the most part, she doesn't until Byleth comes in and makes deliberate efforts to get her to open up). These two tropes can be mutually exclusive themselves, dude; all depends on context.

 

Spoiler

 

Sothis was never truly dead (as in gone from this mortal plane) though. She lacked a physical vessel, but it's clear her soul slept inside the Crest Stone. If you take a sleeping god, and shove it into another being, and it takes control of that person's body, that's textbook possession. It's almost the definition thereof. That is what Seiros intended to happen. What actually happened is that the ACTUAL soul of the body, Byleth, a separate being from Sothis, remained in control. Sothis eventually awakened and they basically cohabited, with Byleth still in control. Either way, and this is important, Byleth them-self is NOT Sothis's reincarnation. This is my main point, and what the original trope description claimed. They have a seperate sould and are a separate existence from Sothis. They fuse later on, so Byleth can inherit Sothi's power, but even after this, Sothis maintains a separate soul and consciousness. The opinion of other people only matters as a sidenote (though one worthy of mention). Several characters note that Byleth has power like the legends of old, but only Seiros (who is insane) actually claims Byleth to be Sothis returned.

We can argue about whether Sothis possessing Byleth's body would count as reincarnation or not all day. You seem to think it does, and I think it does not. This point is kind of moot now, since someone rewrote the tropes page. It could still be slightly improved in my opinion, but I won't rage about it. 

Seiros is insane. The game spells this out. She alternates between incorrectly seeing Byleth as her parent, and demanding they return the Crest stone. You're correct that Seiros see's Byleth body as just a vessel, and his soul as a hindrance. This is just more proof that Byleth themself is not Sothis. They are an obstacle to Seiros, and to her dream of Sothis claiming their body.

No. Sorry. It's just wrong. Mutually-exclusive means mutually-exclusive. As in, you cannot have both of these things. You can have Hilda and Dimitri, or Hilda and Edelgard, and thus the trope was wrong. It has since been deleted. The fact of the matter is that EVERY character has requirements to be recruited. Are they all 'mutually-exclusive' because of this? If we later find out that Hilda has very specific requirements that require choices out of the ordinary, maybe the trope can be re-added. So far, it seems to just be rumours and speculation, and he character page is not the place for such.

A stoic doesn't commonly display nervousness. That's the very point of the trope. They're stoic. If they display emotion whenever confronted, then they're either The Quiet One or a Shrinking Violet or another similar trope. Whenever they do display emotion, it should be an OOC Is Serious Business moment, not literally whenever they're talked to. Cast members might perceive them as The Stoic, but if so, the truth of the matter should be noted within the trope description so as the reader doesn't gain the wrong impression. If your argument is that she should be The Stoic because cast members perceive her to be so, then that's fine, but her actual personality should be noted in the trope description.

As I don't really feel like writing another wall of text after this one, here's my points.

Byleth is not Sothis's reincarnation. They are separate beings. The original text claimed they were. It was wrong. It has since been changed. It's still not perfect, but at least it doesn't claim outright flat lies.

Mutually exclusive means mutually exclusive. If there are specific unique means to recruiting a character, they should be noted in the trope description. The original description claimed it was flat out impossible to recruit Hilda and Dimitri or Hilda and Edelgard. It has since been changed to be more accurate.

If you want to describe Marianne as the Stoic because of the cast's belief, then cool. That's fine. The actual reality of the situation should be noted in the trope description however.

 

 

[MrMetroid]

2 minutes ago, Onestep said:

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Sothis was never truly dead (as in gone from this mortal plane) though. She lacked a physical vessel, but it's clear her soul slept inside the Crest Stone. If you take a sleeping god, and shove it into another being, and it takes control of that person's body, that's textbook possession. It's almost the definition thereof. That is what Seiros intended to happen. What actually happened is that the ACTUAL soul of the body, Byleth, a separate being from Sothis, remained in control. Sothis eventually awakened and they basically cohabited, with Byleth still in control. Either way, and this is important, Byleth them-self is NOT Sothis's reincarnation. This is my main point, and what the original trope description claimed. They have a seperate sould and are a separate existence from Sothis. They fuse later on, so Byleth can inherit Sothi's power, but even after this, Sothis maintains a separate soul and consciousness. The opinion of other people only matters as a sidenote (though one worthy of mention). Several characters note that Byleth has power like the legends of old, but only Seiros (who is insane) actually claims Byleth to be Sothis returned.

We can argue about whether Sothis possessing Byleth's body would count as reincarnation or not all day. You seem to think it does, and I think it does not. This point is kind of moot now, since someone rewrote the tropes page. It could still be slightly improved in my opinion, but I won't rage about it. 

Seiros is insane. The game spells this out. She alternates between incorrectly seeing Byleth as her parent, and demanding they return the Crest stone. You're correct that Seiros see's Byleth body as just a vessel, and his soul as a hindrance. This is just more proof that Byleth themself is not Sothis. They are an obstacle to Seiros, and to her dream of Sothis claiming their body.

No. Sorry. It's just wrong. Mutually-exclusive means mutually-exclusive. As in, you cannot have both of these things. You can have Hilda and Dimitri, or Hilda and Edelgard, and thus the trope was wrong. It has since been deleted. The fact of the matter is that EVERY character has requirements to be recruited. Are they all 'mutually-exclusive' because of this? If we later find out that Hilda has very specific requirements that require choices out of the ordinary, maybe the trope can be re-added. So far, it seems to just be rumours and speculation, and he character page is not the place for such.

A stoic doesn't commonly display nervousness. That's the very point of the trope. They're stoic. If they display emotion whenever confronted, then they're either The Quiet One or a Shrinking Violet or another similar trope. Whenever they do display emotion, it should be an OOC Is Serious Business moment, not literally whenever they're talked to. Cast members might perceive them as The Stoic, but if so, the truth of the matter should be noted within the trope description so as the reader doesn't gain the wrong impression. If your argument is that she should be The Stoic because cast members perceive her to be so, then that's fine, but her actual personality should be noted in the trope description.

As I don't really feel like writing another wall of text after this one, here's my points.

Byleth is not Sothis's reincarnation. They are separate beings. The original text claimed they were. It was wrong. It has since been changed. It's still not perfect, but at least it doesn't claim outright flat lies.

Mutually exclusive means mutually exclusive. If there are specific unique means to recruiting a character, they should be noted in the trope description. The original description claimed it was flat out impossible to recruit Hilda and Dimitri or Hilda and Edelgard. It has since been changed to be more accurate.

If you want to describe Marianne as the Stoic because of the cast's belief, then cool. That's fine. The actual reality of the situation should be noted in the trope description however.

 

 

Spoiler

Technically, she is - her physical body's no longer around. Honestly, "gone from this mortal plane" is the basic term for being dead, and trying to incarnate someone's bodiless spirit to another compatible vessel in their bloodline can be considered "reincarnation" because it's bringing something/someone back in a different form - like I said before, this just comes across as being persnickety about it. And according to your own outline, it's not "textbook possession" since Sothis never does take control of Byleth - if anything she acts more as a source of power then an invasive presence.

Like I said before, "reincarnation" doesn't actually seem to force such a strict demand - it doesn't preclude the new body having a mind of it's own or being different from the ancestor. Shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender seemed to emphasize that point especially in how Aang was both inheritor of every Avatar's spirit and considered the same entity reborn again and again, yet was also his own person with each past Avatar's spirit being it's own individual being - whether or not you personally think the term should constitute something else, the concept of reincarnation honestly doesn't seem to be any less applicable simply because Sothis and Byleth had different/separate souls (which in and of themselves end up fused more thoroughly together during the course of the story). 

And like I said said before, Seiros may be insane but Rhea is not - much like Byleth and Sothis, Rhea and Seiros are two souls in a single body. The difference is that Seiros isn't benign like Sothis is - Seiros was driven to madness by draconic instincts and severe trauma, and the result is that their sense of self is constantly in flux; not only their perception of reality but also which soul/mind is which. The only real reliable tell is in how they address Byleth - if they address them as their own person, like when referring to removing the Crest Stone, that's Rhea; if they're addressing them as someone from their memories, such as referring to them as Sothis or Nemesis, that's Seiros. Their states of mind/states of being are more fluid compared to Byleth and Sothis because, as you yourself just noted, Seiros is insane.

And again, no - it's not necessarily "wrong" if it's not in fact mutually exclusive; if they're not available in every single route, or you have to jump through some kind of hoops to get them verses being able to recruit them during normal story-play, then the trope technically still applies. This comes across as being persnickety again, dude. 

Lastly, a stoic can indeed display nervousness - hell, they can even do so commonly; it's only if that affects their outward displays/isn't displayed inwardly that they stop being "the Stoic". If they never speak to anyone, there's no instance where they can or would display their nervousness - like I said before, A "Shrinking Violet" character can be viewed as/portrayed as "The Stoic" simply by not speaking to others, which Claude openly notes was the case prior to Byleth coming along. "The very point of the trope" refers to how the character is in interacting with others - but if they're not interacting and just sitting quietly in the corner (as Marianne is flat-out noted to do) than they would be qualifiable to also be considered "The Stoic"; that's what's regarded as Marianne's "normal" state since, again, she normally doesn't interact with people and keeps to herself. Like I mentioned earlier, that's called "playing with a trope" - IMHO, this this feels like just being persnickety all around, dude.

 

[Armchair General]

So how often does FE pulls the "pls euthanise insane, rabid dragon" card? Because I watched one of the final levels and I feel that it's getting old at this point.