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(SPOILERS) Three Houses General Spoilers Thread


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31 minutes ago, MrMetroid said:
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Technically, she is - her physical body's no longer around. Honestly, "gone from this mortal plane" is the basic term for being dead, and trying to incarnate someone's bodiless spirit to another compatible vessel in their bloodline can be considered "reincarnation" because it's bringing something/someone back in a different form - like I said before, this just comes across as being persnickety about it. And according to your own outline, it's not "textbook possession" since Sothis never does take control of Byleth - if anything she acts more as a source of power then an invasive presence.

Like I said before, "reincarnation" doesn't actually seem to force such a strict demand - it doesn't preclude the new body having a mind of it's own or being different from the ancestor. Shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender seemed to emphasize that point especially in how Aang was both inheritor of every Avatar's spirit and considered the same entity reborn again and again, yet was also his own person with each past Avatar's spirit being it's own individual being - whether or not you personally think the term should constitute something else, the concept of reincarnation honestly doesn't seem to be any less applicable simply because Sothis and Byleth had different/separate souls (which in and of themselves end up fused more thoroughly together during the course of the story). 

And like I said said before, Seiros may be insane but Rhea is not - much like Byleth and Sothis, Rhea and Seiros are two souls in a single body. The difference is that Seiros isn't benign like Sothis is - Seiros was driven to madness by draconic instincts and severe trauma, and the result is that their sense of self is constantly in flux; not only their perception of reality but also which soul/mind is which. The only real reliable tell is in how they address Byleth - if they address them as their own person, like when referring to removing the Crest Stone, that's Rhea; if they're addressing them as someone from their memories, such as referring to them as Sothis or Nemesis, that's Seiros. Their states of mind/states of being are more fluid compared to Byleth and Sothis because, as you yourself just noted, Seiros is insane.

And again, no - it's not necessarily "wrong" if it's not in fact mutually exclusive; if they're not available in every single route, or you have to jump through some kind of hoops to get them verses being able to recruit them during normal story-play, then the trope technically still applies. This comes across as being persnickety again, dude. 

Lastly, a stoic can indeed display nervousness - hell, they can even do so commonly; it's only if that affects their outward displays/isn't displayed inwardly that they stop being "the Stoic". If they never speak to anyone, there's no instance where they can or would display their nervousness - like I said before, A "Shrinking Violet" character can be viewed as/portrayed as "The Stoic" simply by not speaking to others, which Claude openly notes was the case prior to Byleth coming along. "The very point of the trope" refers to how the character is in interacting with others - but if they're not interacting and just sitting quietly in the corner (as Marianne is flat-out noted to do) than they would be qualifiable to also be considered "The Stoic"; that's what's regarded as Marianne's "normal" state since, again, she normally doesn't interact with people and keeps to herself. Like I mentioned earlier, that's called "playing with a trope" - IMHO, this this feels like just being persnickety all around, dude.

 

Spoiler

 

Look, I'm going to be blunt about this. We've both stated our arguments. The simple fact of the matter is, we disagree on certain principles.

I think reincarnation should be the continuation of the same soul returning to new life. In most religions that feature reincarnation, this is literally the definition of reincarnation. Sothis and Byleth have different souls and minds. Byleth is not her reincarnation. Byleth and Sothis DO have a connection, first caused by the presence of the Crest Stone, and later by their fusion. But they're still separate. Sothis even says as much in her S rank ending, referring to their linked, but separate souls. 

All Avatars share the same soul. The soul of Wan. They have different consciousnesses and memories, but the same soul. Sothis and Byleth have different souls. A more accurate comparison to Avatar would have Sothis as Raava and Byleth as Wang, being a divine being and a human that have fused together. 

Now you could argue that Sothis possessing a body to return to life is a twisted form of reincarnation, by the standards I gave in my previous sentence. It's an interesting argument. I don't agree with it. It's literally possession, and if you use that argument, then every example in media of a ghost possessing a body could be called reincarnation. As is, the point is moot.As you say,  it never happened. She remained dormant in her Crest Stone, her mind and soul only briefly touching Byleth's while he slept.

The original sentence claimed, flat out, that they weren't available, AT ALL, in Dimitri and Edelgard's routes. It was wrong. It has been removed, not even by me. This is not a matter of debate. It is not 'persnickety', no matter how much you repeat that word. It was wrong as it was. Factually incorrect. A lie. It's not a matter of debate. Look back through the history. If you want to add it back in when we have all the details and think it applies, do so. Just make sure all the information is there so people don't read it and get factually incorrect information. The purpose of tv tropes is not to deceive.

And it does affect her outward displays. She stutters in conversation. She hesitates. her facial expression is constantly sad or nervous She's not the stoic, even if people in-universe perceive her to be. I really don't understand what you keep going on about. I've already said that The Stoic is fine on the tropes, as long as you put her actual characterization in the description. If you're trying to convince me that she really IS The Stoic, and that was her intended character perception out-of-universe. then don't. I disagree. A single conversation with her, where she stutters through every line, it proof enough of that to me.

At this point, I'm going to basically call this conversation to a halt. We clearly have different arguments, and we're going in circles. Can we just agree to disagree, respectfully?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Onestep said:
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Look, I'm going to be blunt about this. We've both stated our arguments. The simple fact of the matter is, we disagree on certain principles.

I think reincarnation should be the continuation of the same soul returning to new life. In most religions that feature reincarnation, this is literally the definition of reincarnation. Sothis and Byleth have different souls and minds. Byleth is not her reincarnation. Byleth and Sothis DO have a connection, first caused by the presence of the Crest Stone, and later by their fusion. But they're still separate. Sothis even says as much in her S rank ending, referring to their linked, but separate souls. 

All Avatars share the same soul. The soul of Wan. They have different consciousnesses and memories, but the same soul. Sothis and Byleth have different souls. A more accurate comparison to Avatar would have Sothis as Raava and Byleth as Wang, being a divine being and a human that have fused together. 

Now you could argue that Sothis possessing a body to return to life is a twisted form of reincarnation, by the standards I gave in my previous sentence. It's an interesting argument. I don't agree with it. It's literally possession, and if you use that argument, then every example in media of a ghost possessing a body could be called reincarnation. As is, the point is moot.As you say,  it never happened. She remained dormant in her Crest Stone, her mind and soul only briefly touching Byleth's while he slept.

The original sentence claimed, flat out, that they weren't available, AT ALL, in Dimitri and Edelgard's routes. It was wrong. It has been removed, not even by me. This is not a matter of debate. It is not 'persnickety', no matter how much you repeat that word. It was wrong as it was. Factually incorrect. A lie. It's not a matter of debate. Look back through the history. If you want to add it back in when we have all the details and think it applies, do so. Just make sure all the information is there so people don't read it and get factually incorrect information. The purpose of tv tropes is not to deceive.

And it does affect her outward displays. She stutters in conversation. She hesitates. her facial expression is constantly sad or nervous She's not the stoic, even if people in-universe perceive her to be. I really don't understand what you keep going on about. I've already said that The Stoic is fine on the tropes, as long as you put her actual characterization in the description. If you're trying to convince me that she really IS The Stoic, and that was her intended character perception out-of-universe. then don't. I disagree. A single conversation with her, where she stutters through every line, it proof enough of that to me.

At this point, I'm going to basically call this conversation to a halt. We clearly have different arguments, and we're going in circles. Can we just agree to disagree, respectfully?

 

 

Spoiler

But that's just it; this isn't about personal opinion - this is about what TvTropes does or does not accept as applicable for a trope. The only "certain principles" that should matter here is what the site itself accepts, not you or I personally. 

Reincarnation is a disembodied/deceased soul being brought back into a different body from their bloodline, ideally one compatible to them - things like whether it's two separate souls or not don't negate that as shows like Avatar prove (since the Avatars don't all share the same soul; they share the same power passed down through different generations) and shows like RWBY (where Ozpin literally calls it "reincarnation" even though it starts as two separate souls gradually merging into one). And it doesn't equate to "Demonic Possession" if the union isn't being forced by the inhabiting spirit. Hell, even by your own logic it still applies since Sothis arguably is continuing on in the world by existing in Byleth and viewing the world through their eyes, aka "a new life" - even moreso after she merges her spirit and power into their own. It still counts as reincarnation, at least as far as tropes are concerned. Something demonstrably different different from ghost possession since that's a temporary link that can be abolished at any time (either at the ghost's own discretion or by a strong enough resistance from the vessel) verses a solid link like Byleth and Sothis'.

Also, you seem to have made a misinterpretation here - I wasn't talking about Hilda in particular by that point; I was objecting to your general perception of what the trope refers to, as I viewed that to be a very persnickety view of it since, if a character isn obtainable through base gameplay/needs special requirements to get at, it technically still counts towards being "mutually exclusive". It was not "Factually incorrect", nor "A lie" or "not a matter of debate" - at bare minimum, that was me not being clear enough on my wording between the concept itself and Hilda, which I own up to. 

And once again, Marianne's outward displays are only affected in conversation - which, by that point, little to none of her classmates had done. In anything beyond socialization, she does indeed act like "The Stoic" - she is quiet, calm and generally not very emotive; the only thing this is an exception with is actually talking to people. That makes both tropes applicable to her - "Shrinking Violet" being her actual personality, but the antisocial behavior she takes to combat/hide it makes her into "The Stoic" in the eyes of her classmates and when doing tasks since she's only ever nervous when socializing. I personally don't know why you're insisting such a hardline view of it when "playing with the trope" seems pretty commonly used to describe cases like this with Claude's first lines about her being proof enough for it. Her "actual characterization" embodies both tropes - one regards how she interacts with people, the other describes how she is when not interacting with people; it's as simple as that.

 

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Hey here’s a dumb spoiler-filled question

Spoiler

I’m on golden deers route and have spoiled the hell out of myself. I’ve reached the time skip and I gotta ask... are Edelgards ambitions more understandable in her path? The games doing a good job of making me think of her as a big villain. Lads, why would I want to go on her side in another route? How does the game make her redeemable?

 

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Just now, MrMetroid said:
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But that's just it; this isn't about personal opinion - this is about what TvTropes does or does not accept as applicable for a trope. The only "certain principles" that should matter here is what the site itself accepts, not you or I personally. 

Reincarnation is a disembodied/deceased soul being brought back into a different body from their bloodline, ideally one compatible to them - things like whether it's two separate souls or not don't negate that as shows like Avatar prove (since the Avatars don't all share the same soul; they share the same power passed down through different generations) and shows like RWBY (where Ozpin literally calls it "reincarnation" even though it starts as two separate souls gradually merging into one). And it doesn't equate to "Demonic Possession" if the union isn't being forced by the inhabiting spirit. Hell, even by your own logic it still applies since Sothis arguably is continuing on in the world by existing in Byleth and viewing the world through their eyes, aka "a new life" - even moreso after she merges her spirit and power into their own. It still counts as reincarnation, at least as far as tropes are concerned. Something demonstrably different different from ghost possession since that's a temporary link that can be abolished at any time (either at the ghost's own discretion or by a strong enough resistance from the vessel) verses a solid link like Byleth and Sothis'.

Also, you seem to have made a misinterpretation here - I wasn't talking about Hilda in particular by that point; I was objecting to your general perception of what the trope refers to, as I viewed that to be a very persnickety view of it since, if a character isn obtainable through base gameplay/needs special requirements to get at, it technically still counts towards being "mutually exclusive". It was not "Factually incorrect", nor "A lie" or "not a matter of debate" - at bare minimum, that was me not being clear enough on my wording between the concept itself and Hilda, which I own up to. 

And once again, Marianne's outward displays are only affected in conversation - which, by that point, little to none of her classmates had done. In anything beyond socialization, she does indeed act like "The Stoic" - she is quiet, calm and generally not very emotive; the only thing this is an exception with is actually talking to people. That makes both tropes applicable to her - "Shrinking Violet" being her actual personality, but the antisocial behavior she takes to combat/hide it makes her into "The Stoic" in the eyes of her classmates and when doing tasks since she's only ever nervous when socializing. I personally don't know why you're insisting such a hardline view of it when "playing with the trope" seems pretty commonly used to describe cases like this with Claude's first lines about her being proof enough for it. Her "actual characterization" embodies both tropes - one regards how she interacts with people, the other describes how she is when not interacting with people; it's as simple as that.

 

OK, first of all, I think I can clarify our differences on this point, but also point out our agreements. Byleth is not Sothis's reincarnation. They have different souls and minds. We both agree on that point. However, I understand the argument you're making here. That Sothis moving to Byleth's body is her own reincarnation, separate from Byleth, but sharing the same body as him. I still disagree, but it's just a matter of opinion on the definition of reincarnation, which varies across religion and media and is not something to be argued about.

We both agree that the situation as Rhea/Seiros would have wanted it (Sothis alone in Byleth's body or at least completely dominating Byleth) WOULD have been Demonic Possession, but it's only theoretical.  Rather than Demonic Possession or Reincarnation, perhaps the best tropes would be either Symbiotic Possession or Sharing a Body? Sothis's Crest was her Soul Jar, and then she got transferred to Byleth's body, creating a situation where she either shared the body with Byleth's soul (as the lesser aspect, being only able to sense, not command) or symbiotically possessed Byleth's body alongside his own soul (again in a lesser aspect, only able to sense). Eventually, they undergo Fusion Dance, at which point the Crest Stone becomes more or less irrelevant. They're still separate souls and minds, but so tightly linked they can basically read each other's minds. 

I think we can both chalk this second one up to misunderstandings and awkward wordings. My complaint was purely with the entirely inaccurate initial version. If you thought otherwise, I must have phrased my thoughts badly.

And I think you're misunderstanding me on this last one as well. Marianne has every right to The Stoic trope. Once again, my problem is with the description  wording as it currently is. It should be clarified, to the reader, that the trope is being played with as Marianne's stoicism is a facade constructed by her fellow students that hides her shrinking violet. Lacking that, it's incomplete and can give a reader the wrong impression of a character. So my problem isn't with the use of the trope, but that it isn't being properly expanded on. Right now, the description makes it sound as if Marianne The Stoic is being played completely straight, when we both know it's being played with.

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2 minutes ago, Onestep said:

OK, first of all, I think I can clarify our differences on this point, but also point out our agreements. Byleth is not Sothis's reincarnation. They have different souls and minds. We both agree on that point. However, I understand the argument you're making here. That Sothis moving to Byleth's body is her own reincarnation, separate from Byleth, but sharing the same body as him. I still disagree, but it's just a matter of opinion on the definition of reincarnation, which varies across religion and media and is not something to be argued about.

We both agree that the situation as Rhea/Seiros would have wanted it (Sothis alone in Byleth's body or at least completely dominating Byleth) WOULD have been Demonic Possession, but it's only theoretical.  Rather than Demonic Possession or Reincarnation, perhaps the best tropes would be either Symbiotic Possession or Sharing a Body? Sothis's Crest was her Soul Jar, and then she got transferred to Byleth's body, creating a situation where she either shared the body with Byleth's soul (as the lesser aspect, being only able to sense, not command) or symbiotically possessed Byleth's body alongside his own soul (again in a lesser aspect, only able to sense). Eventually, they undergo Fusion Dance, at which point the Crest Stone becomes more or less irrelevant. They're still separate souls and minds, but so tightly linked they can basically read each other's minds. 

I think we can both chalk this second one up to misunderstandings and awkward wordings. My complaint was purely with the entirely inaccurate initial version. If you thought otherwise, I must have phrased my thoughts badly.

And I think you're misunderstanding me on this last one as well. Marianne has every right to The Stoic trope. Once again, my problem is with the description  wording as it currently is. It should be clarified, to the reader, that the trope is being played with as Marianne's stoicism is a facade constructed by her fellow students that hides her shrinking violet. Lacking that, it's incomplete and can give a reader the wrong impression of a character. So my problem isn't with the use of the trope, but that it isn't being properly expanded on. Right now, the description makes it sound as if Marianne The Stoic is being played completely straight, when we both know it's being played with.

Spoiler

Except you didn't - because like I said before, this isn't about personal opinion; it's about what TvTropes does or does not accept as applicable for a trope. Honestly, I don't think it's your wording on things that's the issue - I can understand you just fine; rather, I think it must be my wording that's causing confusion. 

As far as the trope is concerned, Byleth and Sothis do qualify as "reincarnation" because it's a formally-disembodied/deceased spirit being placed into a new body and given a new life period; whether they share that life with the body's original one or exist as separate souls doesn't preclude the trope being applicable. What makes it more reincarnation over symbiosis or "Sharing a Body" is the fact Byleth is in fact considered a descendent of Sothis (due to the fact their mother was basically a failed clone of the latter) and later on merges souls/powers with her. The trope in general is used in a more broad interpretation across media than your personal one - by extension of that, the site's not wrong to list the two of them under it. The reason I'm repeating all this is because you've misunderstood me again - I did not in fact agree with you that "Demonic Possession" was what Seiros wanted for Byleth; I was saying that what Seiros wanted was closer to your version of what reincarnation should be and that her own connection to Rhea was the thing that more closely constituted "Demonic Possession" since she was actively overwriting Rhea's will at point. 

As for Marianne, it's not that I misunderstood you there - it's that I flat-out don't agree with your view of the description being wrong; it doesn't need to be clarified because it honestly works as is, even by the standards you yourself set for it (i.e., that they can be "low key and quiet", which she is with most of her class, yet also "just as talkative as anyone else", as she is with the few people she considers friends - or with Byleth, who repeatedly goes out of the way to speak with her rather than the other way around). It doesn't really need to be clarified because (IMHO at least) it's not a "facade" - she genuinely is calmer when not interacting with people verses socializing with them; she's not forcing herself to be "The Stoic" in those cases; rather, she becomes "The Stoic" when not having to deal with people. I say it's being "played with" because of context - because it's that her stoicism isn't the result of lacking emotions entirely, so much as it is just being quiet and unobtrusive; IMHO, a straight-up stoic would be someone who's emotions were deadened or subdued. 

 

 

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Sorry. Quick BL timeskip spoiler question.

Spoiler

I just finished part 1 but apparently Dedue dies during the timeskip? I thought I heard a rumour that Lysithea (I think I spelled that wrong) dies in the GD timeskip if you haven't reached a certain support level with her. Is this the same thing or did I miss some kind of choice that screwed me over?

 

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Just now, MrMetroid said:
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Except you didn't - because like I said before, this isn't about personal opinion; it's about what TvTropes does or does not accept as applicable for a trope. Honestly, I don't think it's your wording on things that's the issue - I can understand you just fine; rather, I think it must be my wording that's causing confusion. 

As far as the trope is concerned, Byleth and Sothis do qualify as "reincarnation" because it's a formally-disembodied/deceased spirit being placed into a new body and given a new life period; whether they share that life with the body's original one or exist as separate souls doesn't preclude the trope being applicable. What makes it more reincarnation over symbiosis or "Sharing a Body" is the fact Byleth is in fact considered a descendent of Sothis (due to the fact their mother was basically a failed clone of the latter) and later on merges souls/powers with her. The trope in general is used in a more broad interpretation across media than your personal one - by extension of that, the site's not wrong to list the two of them under it. The reason I'm repeating all this is because you've misunderstood me again - I did not in fact agree with you that "Demonic Possession" was what Seiros wanted for Byleth; I was saying that what Seiros wanted was closer to your version of what reincarnation should be and that her own connection to Rhea was the thing that more closely constituted "Demonic Possession" since she was actively overwriting Rhea's will at point. 

As for Marianne, it's not that I misunderstood you there - it's that I flat-out don't agree with your view of the description being wrong; it doesn't need to be clarified because it honestly works as is, even by the standards you yourself set for it (i.e., that they can be "low key and quiet", which she is with most of her class, yet also "just as talkative as anyone else", as she is with the few people she considers friends - or with Byleth, who repeatedly goes out of the way to speak with her rather than the other way around). It doesn't really need to be clarified because (IMHO at least) it's not a "facade" - she genuinely is calmer when not interacting with people verses socializing with them; she's not forcing herself to be "The Stoic" in those cases; rather, she becomes "The Stoic" when not having to deal with people. I say it's being "played with" because of context - because it's that her stoicism isn't the result of lacking emotions entirely, so much as it is just being quiet and unobtrusive; IMHO, a straight-up stoic would be someone who's emotions were deadened or subdued. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

TV tropes gives few hard and fast standards on this. But the very first line of the description of the Reincarnation trope is: One or more of the main characters is the reincarnation of someone from the past, and they are forced to live with the effects of their previous incarnation's life, loves and choices.

Byleth is not anyone from the past. He is a new and separate soul. By TV Tropes definition, he is not Sothis's reincarnation by the simple virtue of the fact that, of itself, his soul is his own. Sothis's is separate. Two souls sharing a body? Why, that sounds like Sharing a Body, or Symbiotic Possession. How odd.

And your definition is not universally accepted. For example, Talion and the Wraith from Shadow of Mordor. The Wraith is a disembodied spirit that gains new life in Talion's body. Did he reincarnate? Does Tv Tropes treat him as reincarnating? No. It's a case of Symbiotic Possession. Sothis's situation is almost identical similiar, except she wasn't even disembodied. Her soul existed comfortably in her Soul Jar of a Crest Stone. You're choosing to intepret a soul being moved to a new body and sharing that body with the actual soul of the body as reincarnation, when there's another almost identical example on TV Tropes of that being treated as Symbiotic Possession. Heck, Talion and the Wraith are literally the page image for it.  

Their bloodline is completely irrelevant to the reincarnation trope. Reincarnation tropes in general don't have any inherent connection to bloodline. What's important to Byleth's bloodline in Three Houses is that the combination of his mother's genes and his father's blood make him suitable to be a host for Sothis's soul. This is no different from Robin or Julius, neither of whom were reincarnations of their dragons. They were, you guessed it, possessed by them. Heck, Julius is almost a perfect match. Loptous was a disembodied spirit bound to his book (Like Sothis was a sleeping spirit bound to her stone) who Manfrey (Rhea) conspired to get into the possession of a suitable host. At that point Loptous Demonically Possessed Julius, whereas Sothis Symbiotically Possessed Byleth.

The fact of the matter is that you are the oneusing your own notions of what reincarnation is treated as on Tv Tropes, when there are clear examples of almost identical situations which TV Tropes treats as possession (Symbiotic or Demonic), both within and without the Fire Emblem series.

We're just going to have to disagree on Marianne. We've said our pieces.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ultimafangirl said:

Sorry. Quick BL timeskip spoiler question.

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I just finished part 1 but apparently Dedue dies during the timeskip? I thought I heard a rumour that Lysithea (I think I spelled that wrong) dies in the GD timeskip if you haven't reached a certain support level with her. Is this the same thing or did I miss some kind of choice that screwed me over?

 

Holy crap! That can happen?!

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48 minutes ago, MrMetroid said:
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Except you didn't - because like I said before, this isn't about personal opinion; it's about what TvTropes does or does not accept as applicable for a trope. Honestly, I don't think it's your wording on things that's the issue - I can understand you just fine; rather, I think it must be my wording that's causing confusion. 

As far as the trope is concerned, Byleth and Sothis do qualify as "reincarnation" because it's a formally-disembodied/deceased spirit being placed into a new body and given a new life period; whether they share that life with the body's original one or exist as separate souls doesn't preclude the trope being applicable. What makes it more reincarnation over symbiosis or "Sharing a Body" is the fact Byleth is in fact considered a descendent of Sothis (due to the fact their mother was basically a failed clone of the latter) and later on merges souls/powers with her. The trope in general is used in a more broad interpretation across media than your personal one - by extension of that, the site's not wrong to list the two of them under it. The reason I'm repeating all this is because you've misunderstood me again - I did not in fact agree with you that "Demonic Possession" was what Seiros wanted for Byleth; I was saying that what Seiros wanted was closer to your version of what reincarnation should be and that her own connection to Rhea was the thing that more closely constituted "Demonic Possession" since she was actively overwriting Rhea's will at point. 

As for Marianne, it's not that I misunderstood you there - it's that I flat-out don't agree with your view of the description being wrong; it doesn't need to be clarified because it honestly works as is, even by the standards you yourself set for it (i.e., that they can be "low key and quiet", which she is with most of her class, yet also "just as talkative as anyone else", as she is with the few people she considers friends - or with Byleth, who repeatedly goes out of the way to speak with her rather than the other way around). It doesn't really need to be clarified because (IMHO at least) it's not a "facade" - she genuinely is calmer when not interacting with people verses socializing with them; she's not forcing herself to be "The Stoic" in those cases; rather, she becomes "The Stoic" when not having to deal with people. I say it's being "played with" because of context - because it's that her stoicism isn't the result of lacking emotions entirely, so much as it is just being quiet and unobtrusive; IMHO, a straight-up stoic would be someone who's emotions were deadened or subdued. 

 

 

Sorry to reply again before you get a chance to respond to my last post, but I wouldn't really bother. I'm just kind of done with this conversation. We're going in circles, and clearly never going to to convince each other. At this point, we're going to bicker about what Tv Tropes policy is, and what REALLY constitutes an example of a  trope  and what TV Tropes treats as an example and so on. It's not an argument that anyone really wins, because Tv Tropes is made up of hundreds of different opinions like ours, with hundreds of interpretations of what a trope really is and plenty of grey area to butt heads in, like we're finding now. I've presented my evidence, and you'll probably find some of your own and we're clearly not going to convince each other of anything. 

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31 minutes ago, ADeadDiehard said:
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You think that's crazy, Dimitri dies offscreen in the timeskip for the Church path iirc.

 

Spoiler

I'm scared to lose Lysithea now! How do I prevent it?

 

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10 minutes ago, MetalAmethyst said:
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I'm scared to lose Lysithea now! How do I prevent it?

 

No idea. If you find out, let us know. 😛

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Also how to recruit Hilda. People keep saying there's something special to getting her, but they never specify what.

 

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Also, if anyone is wondering about the gate keeper, everyone's newest favorite character

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As of the beginning of the time skip in the golden deer route, he's alive and back at the monastery! 

 

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2 hours ago, Ultimafangirl said:

Sorry. Quick BL timeskip spoiler question.

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I just finished part 1 but apparently Dedue dies during the timeskip? I thought I heard a rumour that Lysithea (I think I spelled that wrong) dies in the GD timeskip if you haven't reached a certain support level with her. Is this the same thing or did I miss some kind of choice that screwed me over?

 

Spoiler

Someone on Tumblr answered me. Didn't give details but apparently it's nothing to worry about.

 

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So I decided to spoil myself on the Black Eagles route and 

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Can I just say that Edelgard turning out to be the Flame Emperor is lazy writing at its finest? So much for wanting to avoid spoilers.

 

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5 hours ago, Onestep said:
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TV tropes gives few hard and fast standards on this. But the very first line of the description of the Reincarnation trope is: One or more of the main characters is the reincarnation of someone from the past, and they are forced to live with the effects of their previous incarnation's life, loves and choices.

Byleth is not anyone from the past. He is a new and separate soul. By TV Tropes definition, he is not Sothis's reincarnation by the simple virtue of the fact that, of itself, his soul is his own. Sothis's is separate. Two souls sharing a body? Why, that sounds like Sharing a Body, or Symbiotic Possession. How odd.

And your definition is not universally accepted. For example, Talion and the Wraith from Shadow of Mordor. The Wraith is a disembodied spirit that gains new life in Talion's body. Did he reincarnate? Does Tv Tropes treat him as reincarnating? No. It's a case of Symbiotic Possession. Sothis's situation is almost identical similiar, except she wasn't even disembodied. Her soul existed comfortably in her Soul Jar of a Crest Stone. You're choosing to intepret a soul being moved to a new body and sharing that body with the actual soul of the body as reincarnation, when there's another almost identical example on TV Tropes of that being treated as Symbiotic Possession. Heck, Talion and the Wraith are literally the page image for it.  

Their bloodline is completely irrelevant to the reincarnation trope. Reincarnation tropes in general don't have any inherent connection to bloodline. What's important to Byleth's bloodline in Three Houses is that the combination of his mother's genes and his father's blood make him suitable to be a host for Sothis's soul. This is no different from Robin or Julius, neither of whom were reincarnations of their dragons. They were, you guessed it, possessed by them. Heck, Julius is almost a perfect match. Loptous was a disembodied spirit bound to his book (Like Sothis was a sleeping spirit bound to her stone) who Manfrey (Rhea) conspired to get into the possession of a suitable host. At that point Loptous Demonically Possessed Julius, whereas Sothis Symbiotically Possessed Byleth.

The fact of the matter is that you are the oneusing your own notions of what reincarnation is treated as on Tv Tropes, when there are clear examples of almost identical situations which TV Tropes treats as possession (Symbiotic or Demonic), both within and without the Fire Emblem series.

We're just going to have to disagree on Marianne. We've said our pieces.

 

 

Spoiler
5 hours ago, Onestep said:

Sorry to reply again before you get a chance to respond to my last post, but I wouldn't really bother. I'm just kind of done with this conversation. We're going in circles, and clearly never going to to convince each other. At this point, we're going to bicker about what Tv Tropes policy is, and what REALLY constitutes an example of a  trope  and what TV Tropes treats as an example and so on. It's not an argument that anyone really wins, because Tv Tropes is made up of hundreds of different opinions like ours, with hundreds of interpretations of what a trope really is and plenty of grey area to butt heads in, like we're finding now. I've presented my evidence, and you'll probably find some of your own and we're clearly not going to convince each other of anything. 

 

Spoiler

All due respect, but that doesn't really make a difference to me personally - so long as it's not degenerating into insults or the like, I'd still reply to a continuing argument or reply regardless of whether one side agrees or disagrees simply out of formality. I mean, I kinda figured that kind of thing was a given to do until one side just doesn't respond ^_^;

 

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7 hours ago, Brimney said:

Hey here’s a dumb spoiler-filled question

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I’m on golden deers route and have spoiled the hell out of myself. I’ve reached the time skip and I gotta ask... are Edelgards ambitions more understandable in her path? The games doing a good job of making me think of her as a big villain. Lads, why would I want to go on her side in another route? How does the game make her redeemable?

 

Spoiler

Understandable yes, but personally I would say she got basically standard villain backstory, not so different from Zephiel for example. 

 

To be honest I think her route is sort of fanservice for people who want fight for bad guys. 

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19 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:
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Understandable yes, but personally I would say she got basically standard villain backstory, not so different from Zephiel for example. 

 

To be honest I think her route is sort of fanservice for people who want fight for bad guys. 

Spoiler

That really doesn't seem the case. In her route, she comes off as a more-sympathetic Arvis, whose actions lead to less bloodshed overall. Pre-skip, she simply doesn't know enough to know that her actions (siding with those who slither in the dark) will be harmful, and the way the church acts after you choose her route makes her seem far more justified. Remember, it's not like anyone on your side knows Rhea isn't in control of her own actions! Murdering heretics isn't something that the "good guys" generally do, either. Both her and Rhea are formidable villains if you don't choose their paths, but justified though flawed heroes if you do. That's simply how it is. 

 

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8 hours ago, Brimney said:

Hey here’s a dumb spoiler-filled question

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I’m on golden deers route and have spoiled the hell out of myself. I’ve reached the time skip and I gotta ask... are Edelgards ambitions more understandable in her path? The games doing a good job of making me think of her as a big villain. Lads, why would I want to go on her side in another route? How does the game make her redeemable?

 

Spoiler

That depends on what you'd consider acceptable recourse. In terms of backstory and character, I've seen her be compared to Lelouch vi Britannia by some on gamefaqs and to Daenerys Targaryen by some on YouTube. 

In regards to Edelgard's ambitions, she does have a rather deep-rooted reason for her hate of Seiros, Rhea and the Church; their policies ruined her life, family and nation (albeit not intentionally so). See, the Church of Seiros' actions are basically what caused the Adrestian Empire (Edelgard's kingdom) to decay in power, which resulted in the other two factions splintering off of it. When Edelgard found out that the Church was doctoring historical records to hide the fact Seiros was a dragonkin, she perceived this as the Church trying to manipulate and control humanity. 

Likewise, the Crest System that the Church mandates resulted in Edelgard's family losing political power because neither she nor her ten siblings (eight older, two younger) had a major crest - which in turn resulted in the Prime Minister gaining more power then their family because of how Crests are considered everything. Subsequently, Edelgard and her younger siblings suffering hideous and invasive experimentation to artificially graft Crests into them, in order to restore the royal family's influence among both the kingdom and the rival powers - a process Edelgard alone survived, which also apparently resulted in her hair prematurely turning white a-la-Tokyo Ghoul. With all the rest of her siblings dying young, Edelgard came to deeply resent the Crest System for the misery it caused - both in how easy it was to abuse for those who were born with major crests, and in what desperate lengths those who lacked major crests would go through to compensate. Something she blamed the Church for in addition to it's covering up history - which in turn is what drives her ambition to abolish it, reunify the nation under one kingdom and reform the land's systems. 

However, the downside to Edelgard's goals is that her own sense of ambition and determination to "save/fix" her kingdom results in some severe tunnel-vision. It's to the point she even briefly works with "those who slither in the dark" as "The Flame Emperor" in order to depose her father, setting off a chain of events that results in the deaths of many people - including her own mother, who was also Dimitri's stepmother. She even willfully and nigh-recklessly places herself in danger to fulfill these goals - the bandit attack at the start of the game was something she herself orchestrated that to try and kill Dimitri and Claude, having put herself in danger as well to sell the deception. And while there's certainly a lot of deaths she didn't intend on (such as the curse placed upon the village that basically turned them into mindless zombies), she nonetheless accepts it all as "a necessary loss" because, in her mind, the bloodshed in the present will be worth preventing a lot more bloodshed in the future. 

To answer your original question now that the infodump's over; both versions of the Black Eagles route, Edelgard does get humanized a lot more, but whether it makes one sympathize with or forgive her actions is up to you.
- If Byleth stays by her side, their continued support and presence helps keep her from going too far or becoming too ruthless -  to the point she will even spare Claude's life if Byleth chooses to urge for it (though there is no option to spare Dimitri, as he's too consumed by rage and vengeance should Byleth not have been his teacher). Likewise, Edelgard also comes across as more justified because of how Byleth (aka, the vessel of the Church's patron Goddess Sothis) turning against the Church causes Seiros (the daughter of Sothis who's spirit inhabits her descendent Rhea) to become almost as incoherently-vengeful as Garon from Fates. Eventually, Seiros' hate overwhelms Rhea's mind and she goes on a rampage that ends with Byleth and Edelgard being forced to euthanize Rhea, leaving the Church's reputation in shambles as it comes across like Edelgard was right about them. After the war is over, she abdicates the throne and renounces her family's future claim to it, so that people better suited to peace than a warrior like herself can work towards it. 
- If Byleth stays with the Church, Edelgard expresses clear remorse that they're enemies now - to the point that, after urging Byleth to finish her upon losing for the last time, she admits she'd desperately wanted their paths to be the same and to walk alongside them. Rhea's being a vessel for Seiros also comes to light, along with the fact Seiros is dangerously unstable due to the trauma of her race's near-genocide and the loss of her mother - which ironically makes Edelgard's claims of Rhea being a monster in the route's other branch a self-fulfilling prophecy, as Rhea wouldn't have gone berserk there if not for Edelgard's own provocations of desecrating the tomb of their people/Serios' family to steal the Crest Stones, or of turning Byleth (i.e., Sothis' "reincarnation" in Seiros' eyes) against them (though in all fairness, Edelgard didn't really have a way to know any of this in advance). 

 

Edited by MrMetroid
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44 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:
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That really doesn't seem the case. In her route, she comes off as a more-sympathetic Arvis, whose actions lead to less bloodshed overall. Pre-skip, she simply doesn't know enough to know that her actions (siding with those who slither in the dark) will be harmful, and the way the church acts after you choose her route makes her seem far more justified. Remember, it's not like anyone on your side knows Rhea isn't in control of her own actions! Murdering heretics isn't something that the "good guys" generally do, either. Both her and Rhea are formidable villains if you don't choose their paths, but justified though flawed heroes if you do. That's simply how it is. 

 

This is thing about church as institution. It's doctrine double as law (which is not inheritently wrong). Going against church is same as going against government. 

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I admit, this whole reincarnation thingy is weird. I'm not trying to stir up any fight there, I'm just musing and trying to understand things.

Rhea is apparently Seiros reincarnation, how does that work ? Being a reincarnation means, I simplify, you are that dead guy, in a different body, and yet it seems like two personality that are clashing. We don't call that reincarnation, we call that schizophrenia. Or them fumbling with their writing.


Byleth and their mom were supposed to 'house' Sothis' soul and, that's not reincarnation at all. Putting a soul inside the body of another is not reincarnation that possession, unwilling possession with that, since Sothis doesn't seem keen on that either.

It seems either a case of them not knowing what they're talking about, or just flowering their speech to make a terrible thing look glorious.

On 7/28/2019 at 10:49 AM, Onestep said:

Also, can I just mention how much TvTropes is annoying me right now? So much misinformation being posted on the characters page.


This is just the start my friend. 😛
It could eventualy gets worse or better with time.

The Fridge Horror section pointed out a hilarious thing about Seiros.

Seiros wouldn't have much problem with having incest with their mom.


She is literaly Arvis except with things going even further. It's beautiful !

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34 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

I admit, this whole reincarnation thingy is weird. I'm not trying to stir up any fight there, I'm just musing and trying to understand things.

 

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Rhea is apparently Seiros reincarnation, how does that work ? Being a reincarnation means, I simplify, you are that dead guy, in a different body, and yet it seems like two personality that are clashing. We don't call that reincarnation, we call that schizophrenia. Or them fumbling with their writing.


Byleth and their mom were supposed to 'house' Sothis' soul and, that's not reincarnation at all. Putting a soul inside the body of another is not reincarnation that possession, unwilling possession with that, since Sothis doesn't seem keen on that either.

It seems either a case of them not knowing what they're talking about, or just flowering their speech to make a terrible thing look glorious.


This is just the start my friend. 😛
It could eventualy gets worse or better with time.

The Fridge Horror section pointed out a hilarious thing about Seiros.

 

  Hide contents

Seiros wouldn't have much problem with having incest with their mom.


She is literaly Arvis except with things going even further. It's beautiful !

 

 

Spoiler

I think it's more a matter of Seiros' being mentally unstable causing a kind of dissociative identity disorder - unlike Byleth and Sothis, who retain their individual memories and personalities, Seiros and Rhea's mental states are increasingly fluid to the point they might not be able to distinguish themselves as separate entities anymore; they may not even be consciously aware they were originally two people to start with, much less of who's in control when. Or at least that seems to be the implication. 

From what I can tell, the "reincarnation" Seiros wanted was meant to be just Sothis - there wasn't supposed to be another mind clashing in the first place. Obviously though, the plan didn't go to plan XD.

 

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One thing I found out in the game that's also interesting

Spoiler

turned out in a few convo that Jeralt has been Rhea's right hand for well over 100 years. So he must know who Rhea really is, and even knowing participated the "ritual" to certain degree rather than completely ignorant about it's purpose.

 

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17 hours ago, Brimney said:

Hey here’s a dumb spoiler-filled question

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I’m on golden deers route and have spoiled the hell out of myself. I’ve reached the time skip and I gotta ask... are Edelgards ambitions more understandable in her path? The games doing a good job of making me think of her as a big villain. Lads, why would I want to go on her side in another route? How does the game make her redeemable?

 

cause Seiros is evil and why wouldn't you want to destroy a God that's been out there killing people for its own doing?

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