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(SPOILERS) Three Houses General Spoilers Thread


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2 hours ago, bufkus said:

 

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cause Seiros is evil and why wouldn't you want to destroy a God that's been out there killing people for its own doing?

 

Spoiler

Pretty sure you got it wrong here, the god in the game is Sothis and she's absolute benevolent to human, almost Naga like. And church while having some dark secrets regarding to Byleth, they are overall a good organization preserving peace and defending people.

 

On the other hand, Edelgard's misfortune was actually partially her father's doing. In the paralogue with Ferdinand, it's mentioned by Lythesia  that War of the Seven was caused by Edelgard's father trying to conquer alliance territory, resulting Edelgard being captured later by rebel forces.

 

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4 hours ago, Timlugia said:
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Pretty sure you got it wrong here, the god in the game is Sothis and she's absolute benevolent to human, almost Naga like. And church while having some dark secrets regarding to Byleth, they are overall a good organization preserving peace and defending people.

 

On the other hand, Edelgard's misfortune was actually partially her father's doing. In the paralogue with Ferdinand, it's mentioned by Lythesia  that War of the Seven was caused by Edelgard's father trying to conquer alliance territory, resulting Edelgard being captured later by rebel forces.

 

Spoiler

"Benevolent" really isn't a good way to describe it. Yes, most of the people who follow Seiros's teachings are good, but the higher-ups of the church have a tendency to be a bit bloodthirsty and/or selfish in their ways, depending on route. Being an incarnation of a ticked off dragon doesn't mean you get a free pass for doing evil things (cough) genealogy (cough). Also, your description of Sothis as Naga-like brought up an interesting idea to me. Since Naga's whole thing in the old days was passing on the world to humanity now that dragons were going insane/not existing, when you have to kill Rhea, you sort of become a FE1!Marth-alike, don't you? Neat.

(Also, though she's not a god, Saint Seiros is considered divine. So I think the previous poster gets a pass on that.)

 

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So I'm on chapter 21 of blue lions and I have a question about Dedue post-skip and about similar situations in the other routes.
 

Spoiler

I didn't do the paralogue and Dedue legit isn't coming back lmao. Are there other characters on other routes like this?

 

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So I'm getting farther post time skip and I’m wondering 

Spoiler

Besides Claude on the other routes, can we spare the classmates we haven’t recruited? On Golden Deer I had to kill Ashe and I feel bad, but I remember in fates if you were fast you could avoid killing certain characters in maps. Ferdinand kind of became the boss of his, so I don’t k ownif that’s possible, but maybe for others?

 

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1 hour ago, Brimney said:

So I'm getting farther post time skip and I’m wondering 

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Besides Claude on the other routes, can we spare the classmates we haven’t recruited? On Golden Deer I had to kill Ashe and I feel bad, but I remember in fates if you were fast you could avoid killing certain characters in maps. Ferdinand kind of became the boss of his, so I don’t k ownif that’s possible, but maybe for others?

 

Spoiler

If they joined you in Part I but left afterward, you can spare them in Part II and they'll join you.

 

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1 hour ago, Three Eyes said:

I just beat BL route, and I must have missed it if it ever said, but how did Dimitri lose his eye?  I dont think I skipped over anything.  

Spoiler

Apparently, PTSD. He kept seeing vivid flashbacks and hallucinations of his family and friends - people who his stepsister, Edelgard, had worked with the killers of and thus inadvertently helped cause their deaths. From what I can tell, that grief and guilt and anger built up over the five years Edelgard spent trying to reabsorb Dimitri's kingdom into her empire, until eventually he just lost it one day and gouged one of his eyes out in a desperate effort to stop seeing/being haunted by his dead loved ones.

 

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20 minutes ago, MrMetroid said:
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Apparently, PTSD. He kept seeing vivid flashbacks and hallucinations of his family and friends - people who his stepsister, Edelgard, had worked with the killers of and thus inadvertently helped cause their deaths. From what I can tell, that grief and guilt and anger built up over the five years Edelgard spent trying to reabsorb Dimitri's kingdom into her empire, until eventually he just lost it one day and gouged one of his eyes out in a desperate effort to stop seeing/being haunted by his dead loved ones.

 

Thank you!  Do you know where it confirms this?

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2 hours ago, Time_Intensive said:

Quick Question, Sylvian is currently holding the lance of ruin and its low on durability is there a way to restore it?

Maybe it's like the sword of the creator where you can get it repaired at the blacksmith with some ultra rare material.

Good thing weapons don't disappear when they break anymore.

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8 hours ago, Jayvee94 said:
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If they joined you in Part I but left afterward, you can spare them in Part II and they'll join you.

 

That’s interesting, but

Spoiler

No one who I recruited left me, maybe that’s only in certain routes? 

 

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27 minutes ago, Brimney said:

That’s interesting, but

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No one who I recruited left me, maybe that’s only in certain routes? 

 

That is correct.

Spoiler

I've seen reports of Ashe leaving the roster during the church route and then later appeared in story.

 

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16 hours ago, KP Joey said:

So I'm on chapter 21 of blue lions and I have a question about Dedue post-skip and about similar situations in the other routes.
 

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I didn't do the paralogue and Dedue legit isn't coming back lmao. Are there other characters on other routes like this?

 

I'm curious about this. Are there teammates that die if you dont support them or do their Paralogues?

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Apparently this didn't take the first time - or at least I can't find it anymore. So I've been forced to basically retype everything I said the first time; sorry in advance for double-post xP

On 7/28/2019 at 5:55 PM, Onestep said:
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TV tropes gives few hard and fast standards on this. But the very first line of the description of the Reincarnation trope is: One or more of the main characters is the reincarnation of someone from the past, and they are forced to live with the effects of their previous incarnation's life, loves and choices.

Byleth is not anyone from the past. He is a new and separate soul. By TV Tropes definition, he is not Sothis's reincarnation by the simple virtue of the fact that, of itself, his soul is his own. Sothis's is separate. Two souls sharing a body? Why, that sounds like Sharing a Body, or Symbiotic Possession. How odd.

And your definition is not universally accepted. For example, Talion and the Wraith from Shadow of Mordor. The Wraith is a disembodied spirit that gains new life in Talion's body. Did he reincarnate? Does Tv Tropes treat him as reincarnating? No. It's a case of Symbiotic Possession. Sothis's situation is almost identical similiar, except she wasn't even disembodied. Her soul existed comfortably in her Soul Jar of a Crest Stone. You're choosing to intepret a soul being moved to a new body and sharing that body with the actual soul of the body as reincarnation, when there's another almost identical example on TV Tropes of that being treated as Symbiotic Possession. Heck, Talion and the Wraith are literally the page image for it.  

Their bloodline is completely irrelevant to the reincarnation trope. Reincarnation tropes in general don't have any inherent connection to bloodline. What's important to Byleth's bloodline in Three Houses is that the combination of his mother's genes and his father's blood make him suitable to be a host for Sothis's soul. This is no different from Robin or Julius, neither of whom were reincarnations of their dragons. They were, you guessed it, possessed by them. Heck, Julius is almost a perfect match. Loptous was a disembodied spirit bound to his book (Like Sothis was a sleeping spirit bound to her stone) who Manfrey (Rhea) conspired to get into the possession of a suitable host. At that point Loptous Demonically Possessed Julius, whereas Sothis Symbiotically Possessed Byleth.

The fact of the matter is that you are the oneusing your own notions of what reincarnation is treated as on Tv Tropes, when there are clear examples of almost identical situations which TV Tropes treats as possession (Symbiotic or Demonic), both within and without the Fire Emblem series.

We're just going to have to disagree on Marianne. We've said our pieces.

 

 

Spoiler

But that there is the issue; by your own stated logic, Sothis and Byleth do fit that criteria as is - Sothis is someone from the past who was reborn/given new life within another vessel - in the Golden Deer route, Rhea explicitly states that that Nemesis crafted his personal Crest Stone, the Crest of Flames, from Sothis' heart and carved the Sword of the Creator from her bones; she'd have to be physically dead if there was a confirmed corpse Nemesis looted/pillaged, agreed? Likewise, the person acting as her "reincarnation" ends up having to carry the weight of her legacy; In Byleth's case, it's through inheriting her power and the conflict she was part of. Byleth rather implicitly has to suffer the effects of Sothis' life and choices by finishing the conflict she was part/subject to of against "those who slither in the dark" and in the effects her maddened daughter Seiros wrought. By the definitions you've listed from TvTropes, Byleth would in fact qualify as a "reincarnation" to Sothis.

Likewise, the "new and separate soul" argument doesn't refute distinction either since, like I said before, "reincarnation" doesn't necessitate there only be a single soul in play - Avatar: The Last Airbender shows each inheritor of the Avatar's powers has a separate spirit and personality all their own, yet it's still classified as "reincarnation" as the power/role is continually passed down to a different individual who can share all the memories of their predecessors; RWBY shows Ozpin/Ozma's soul constantly reincarnate into and gradually merge together with different individuals, starting as two distinctly separate personas with their own thoughts and feelings. And that's not even addressing how Byleth themselves could be argued to not in fact be "a new and separate soul" - if anything, they could be argued as a by-product of attempts to rebirth Sothis, since Byleth's mother was effectively a failed pseudo-clone of Sothis herself. 

It doesn't qualify as "Sharing a Body" because the body isn't being shared - Sothis doesn't exhibit any control of her own over Byleth's body; if anything, she exists more as a source of added power rather than a shared owner. It's not a 50/50 split and Byleth's the one making all the choices on what to do with their shared life - Sothis behaves more like a spiritual advisor rather than flat-out sharing the body like, say, Ozpin/Ozma with Oscar Pine in RWBY in which they can switch between who's in control. It qualifies more as "reincarnation" not just because Sothis' spirit was anchored into Byleth but because Byleth was uniquely comparable with her due to being her descendent - and by the end, the two merge their souls' power together to effectively make Byleth a literal reincarnation of Sothis' power. She provides power and commentary to Byleth, but little more than that - that makes her closer to a passenger in Byleth's body rather than actually sharing it with them, and that in and of itself is only because they're a compatible descendent of hers rather than being able to merge with just anyone. 

In turn, it doesn't qualify as "Symbiotic Possession" since, unlike cases such as Talion and Celebrimbor from Shadow of Mordor, they aren't dependent on each-other to live - they may have one life to lose between them, but Sothis was existing as a disembodied/deceased spirit long before Byleth came around and the Black Eagles route flat-out confirms that Byleth is capable of living without having Sothis bonded to them. It doesn't qualify as "symbiotic" because there's no actual "symbiosis" at play - mutual cooperation, yes, but not actual symbiosis. Hell, I'd actually argue "symbiosis" is even the wrong word for Talion and Celebrimbor (or at least just for Celebrimbor) since only one half of that pair (Talion) actually needs the other to live - Celebrimbor could switch out with anyone so long as they were willing to host him; a sharp contrast to Sothis and Byleth, who lack the ability to willingly extract themselves from each-other. "Reincarnation" isn't the same as "possession" because the latter is simply invading another's body, whereas the former is being returned to the mortal world (be it naturally or otherwise) through something that shares an actual connection or resemblance with you - in this case, a shared bloodline.

And in the case of bloodlines, it's honestly anything but "irrelevant" in this instance - if anything, it's the thing that makes Byleth and Sothis' case fit more  as "reincarnation" verses any other type. Rebirth or returning to the world through bloodline relatives is something more closely associated with reincarnation than it is with others - case in point being the series Naruto, with Naruto and Sasuke being revealed as reincarnations of brother-inheritors Asura and Indra through a shared genealogy spanning many generations (including First Hokage Hashirama Senju and Madara Uchiha); that too was classified as being "reincarnation" even though Naruto and Sauske were each their own person different from their ancestors. Having a direct bloodline tie to one's ancestor is arguably more of a common marker to infer "reincarnation" happened than not - what made Byleth compatible to inherit Sothis' soul was the genealogy of their mother, just as it seemingly was with Rhea and Seiros. Which in turn is something demonstrably different from either Robin or Julius' cases of possession - Robin was not related to Grima; they were related to people Grima marked and specifically bred to have a body strong enough to accept Grima as a vessel. Julius was not related to Loptous; he was related to people Loptous infused his blood into as part of a magical pact. None of the ones you listed were actual family to the ones inhabiting them like Sothis was to Byleth - and that's to say nothing of the fact that, unlike Loptous and Grima, Sothis was actually deceased rather than taking a vessel for more power, as I mentioned earlier.

Honestly, the fact of the matter is that media seems to have a much broader/less constrained view of what tropes can apply to - like I've said repeatedly before, it doesn't matter if you think my definition of it "is not universally accepted", because not only is that the same case for your own views but it in and of itself is a moot/irrelevant statement. Again, what you and I personally believe is not the point - what TvTropes does or doesn't accept under the umbrella of a trope is the point. And given how it accepts cases like Aang with past Avatars or Oscar Pine with Ozpin/Ozma as being "reincarnation", Byleth and Sothis would logically fit there as well. It doesn't qualify as possession (neither demonic nor symbiotic) since Sothis didn't choose to invade Byleth's body, nor do they exercise any control over them or their actions or even seemingly exist outside of a source of advisement and extra power.

 

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16 hours ago, Three Eyes said:

Thank you!  Do you know where it confirms this?

Spoiler

Not for sure; I know it wasn't in the Blue Lions route (or at least I don't remember such from the main parts) and it doesn't seem like it was mentioned in any of Dimitri's supports. The reason I found out was because B.Leu.

 

Edited by MrMetroid
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On 7/29/2019 at 4:54 PM, 0 Def Cleric said:
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"Benevolent" really isn't a good way to describe it. Yes, most of the people who follow Seiros's teachings are good, but the higher-ups of the church have a tendency to be a bit bloodthirsty and/or selfish in their ways, depending on route. Being an incarnation of a ticked off dragon doesn't mean you get a free pass for doing evil things (cough) genealogy (cough). Also, your description of Sothis as Naga-like brought up an interesting idea to me. Since Naga's whole thing in the old days was passing on the world to humanity now that dragons were going insane/not existing, when you have to kill Rhea, you sort of become a FE1!Marth-alike, don't you? Neat.

(Also, though she's not a god, Saint Seiros is considered divine. So I think the previous poster gets a pass on that.)

 

I think you are greatly confused between the Church, Seiros and Sothis. I was solely talking about Sothis

Spoiler

How is Sothis not benevolent as a goddess? She clearly cares about humans, even "sacrifice" herself so Byleth could save his students and stops TWSITD

Spoiler

If anything, I actually wonder about Sothis' opinion about the route choices. Especially on Edelgard's. Also, wouldn't following Edelgard basically kills Sothis?

 

Edited by Timlugia
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3 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

I think you are greatly confused between the Church, Seiros and Sothis. I was solely talking about Sothis

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How is Sothis not benevolent as a goddess? She clearly cares about humans, even "sacrifice" herself so Byleth could save his students and stops TWSITD

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If anything, I actually wonder about Sothis' opinion about the route choices. Especially on Edelgard's. Also, wouldn't following Edelgard basically kills Sothis?

 

Oh, I apologize. I was talking about this bit:

4 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

And church while having some dark secrets regarding to Byleth, they are overall a good organization preserving peace and defending people.

Sothis isn't the church. And the church doesn't just have dark secrets regarding Byleth, they're a pretty corrupt organization in general. I should have solely quoted that bit, but I suppose I didn't. Anyway, in regards to route choices:

Spoiler

Sothis is already dead, so she'd probably prefer not to be unceremoniously dragged out of her eternal slumber for too long. I don't think she'd really mind any route you chose, since she believes in you so much as to give you her power to live on your own. Remember, she's not back as a ghost of her own free will; she's there because of her Crest Stone being artificially implanted in your heart. Anyway, I expect she'd enjoy you being able to live on as a true human in Edelgard's route, but she'd also be glad that you'd gain the position to help humanity in the other three routes. She'd probably dislike the church route most, since she's still in your body, because you have to S Support the reincarnation of her daughter in order to save her life, which is just weird. But I think she'd support you no matter what your decision. 

 

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6 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Oh, I apologize. I was talking about this bit:

Sothis isn't the church. And the church doesn't just have dark secrets regarding Byleth, they're a pretty corrupt organization in general. I should have solely quoted that bit, but I suppose I didn't. Anyway, in regards to route choices:

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Sothis is already dead, so she'd probably prefer not to be unceremoniously dragged out of her eternal slumber for too long. I don't think she'd really mind any route you chose, since she believes in you so much as to give you her power to live on your own. Remember, she's not back as a ghost of her own free will; she's there because of her Crest Stone being artificially implanted in your heart. Anyway, I expect she'd enjoy you being able to live on as a true human in Edelgard's route, but she'd also be glad that you'd gain the position to help humanity in the other three routes. She'd probably dislike the church route most, since she's still in your body, because you have to S Support the reincarnation of her daughter in order to save her life, which is just weird. But I think she'd support you no matter what your decision. 

 

I don't think so

Spoiler

the very first cutscene you were with Sothis was that she doesn't want to die with you, thus grant you power to rewind times.

If she doesn't care, she would just let Byleth being hack to death in the first place.

 

She also certainly show grief when she has to fuse with Byleth, wouldn't be so if she's indifferent to it.

 

Edited by Timlugia
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Just now, Timlugia said:

I don't think so

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the very first cutscene you were with Sothis was that she doesn't want to die with you, thus grant you power to rewind times.

If she doesn't care, she would just let Byleth being hack to death in the first place.

 

Spoiler

Hmmm. Except that's way before she realizes what she really is, and bonds with you further. She isn't even aware she died back then. By the time you absorb her, she's a lot more willing to sacrifice for you. Besides, like I said, she's already dead. Your sword is her corpse. If anything, wouldn't she be angry with you about wielding that, if she knew?

 

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7 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

I don't think so

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the very first cutscene you were with Sothis was that she doesn't want to die with you, thus grant you power to rewind times.

If she doesn't care, she would just let Byleth being hack to death in the first place.

 

She also certainly show grief when she has to fuse with Byleth, wouldn't be so if she's indifferent to it.

 

Spoiler

IMHO, that's more her scorning Byleth's foolishness in running to their death than it is any fear of death for herself. I mean, she's already physically dead and Nemesis dying didn't kill her spirit - I think the only the only way she could die/pass beyond is if the stone's destroyed, be it by physical force or with Rhea/Seiros' death. I think her caring is more general benevolence, possibly with a mix of subconscious recognition that Byleth's at least a technical descendent of hers. And I think any grief of leaving is possibly for the same reason - namely the idea of leaving Byleth all alone after having already bonded with them, or of herself being lonely if you truly believe there's a selfish motivator for it on her part, rather than being scared of death or even knowing she could die (again) to begin with.

 

Edited by MrMetroid
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Oh dear. Regarding endings and A supports

Spoiler

I put characters together expecting that the first A rank would get their ending. Looking at the credits, this doesn't seem to be true. I'll update as it goes on, but maybe there are preferences for supports. Hilda and Seteth got together as I planned, but Claude got with Lorenz instead of Claude with Annette and Lorenz with Manuela as I'd planned. I didn't do any of Claude's A-supports until I did his with Annette, but I thought that meant it was safe for Lorenz to finish his support, even though I hadn't finished their his A support won’t Manuela. Oh well. For everyone else, the first A support stuck.

Also, I'd just like to complain. With S-Supports, at least in the Golden Deer Route

Spoiler

You have to beat the final boss to actually see the S-Support. That will make getting the supports filled out in the extras options time-consuming at the least, if not a complete slog. 

And since I have your attention, I have another spoiler-filled question I need answered if possible (Big spoilers for Golden Deer) 

Spoiler

So obviously Claude's parents are Nadir and Judith, but at least on my play through the game never straight-up said it. It's on the wiki which doesn't mean much, but did I miss an actual confirmation of Claude's parentage and especially why they go through such trouble to hide it? Is it revealed on other routes? 

 

Edited by Brimney
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Regarding endings and supports, I take it there can be multiple A ranks while Byleth's "S" rank overrides "A" rank pairings? While Hubert and Edelgard are great (and make sense gameplay wise for my playthrough since they are glued to each other), I'm trying to go M!Byleth and Edelgard for my first run.
* * * * *
Then, for some speculation on A rank endings, perhaps there is a "hidden support meter" that still keeps track of their closest allies. If you naturally keep the supported pair together, then there may not be much issue. However, if they are apart, the desired ending may be changed as the unit continues to build "support levels" with others, even though the "A Rank" has been unlocked.

Perhaps one way to investigate this is to check the Roster Screen and "Closest Allies?" I'm not sure how everything is calculated as I just entered the timeskip portion for the Black Eagles.
* * * * *
Edit: Speaking of support endings, is it possible to see Sothis' S Support by doing Edelgard's route? I'm not planning on doing it myself, but I'm interested in seeing what it has to say if it exists.

Edited by Sire
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14 minutes ago, Sire said:

Edit: Speaking of support endings, is it possible to see Sothis' S Support by doing Edelgard's route? I'm not planning on doing it myself, but I'm interested in seeing what it has to say if it exists.

Spoiler

It is indeed possible. The Black Eagles route has two separate branches - one where you side with Edelgard and the Empire, the other where you side with Rhea and the Church. I believe the latter route is the one where you can S-Support with either Rhea or Sothis... even though they're both technically family members/ancestors of Byleth's.

Hell, Rhea seemingly requires S-Support (aka, "the power of love" - albeit with not only the child of her mother's pseudo-clone/her cousin at best and a test-tube half-sibling at worst, but the reincarnation/vessel of her ancestor/Seiros' own mother) to overcome dragon-madness and survive in the Church branch of the Black Eagles route... and right alongside that is the possibility of a romantic relationship with the disembodied spirit of someone who's not only inhabiting your body/soul but also (due to the fact that, again, Byleth's mom was her failed pseudo-clone) is either your ancestor at best or your own grandmother at worst.

... and people said Fates had messed-up relationship options XD.

1) - Rhea's S-Support
2) - Sothis' S-Support

 

Edited by MrMetroid
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