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MilodicMellodi

Lull in Arena, and what this means for Emblem teams

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With Dimitri and Claude coming with a new couple skills, Lull Atk/Def and Lull Spd/Def respectively, one thought at first that this new line of skills was pretty underwhelming. That is, until they look a bit closer at the text. What the Lull skills do is that they 1) nullify Field Buffs during combat, and 2) inflict -3 in the specified stats — Atk/Def or Spd/Def currently — during combat. This does many things for combat as a whole.

1) Bonus Doubler is, at best (for BD), at half its effectiveness against someone with a Lull skill, even if the user of the Lull skill isn't able to counterattack. This also means that Legendary!Marth, who has Bonus Doubler built into his weapon, will be less viable as time goes on.
2) Flier Emblem, Horse Emblem, and Armor Emblem teams will no longer be able to guarantee the usefulness of their respective Class Hone/Fortify skills. This pretty much means that Infantry as a whole is getting a huge indirect buff, since Infantry doesn't have exclusive access to Class Hone/Fortify skills (though this may change if Edelgard's Rouse Atk/Def is exclusive to Infantry).
3) Blade tomes fall even farther into obscurity. They don't have upgrades, they slow their user's cooldown count, and now they can't even guarantee their own damage output. Lull Atk/Def makes this even worse, as the loss of their Atk bonus lowers both the weapon's and user's own damage outputs. This also affects Laevatein, due to her personal weapon's effect.
4) And more (if I keep going on, it'll become very boring and tl;dr-ish)

The point is, with the inclusion of the Lull line of skills, the way we treat bonuses in Arena will end up changing drastically. How, then, will we prepare for this? Will Emblem teams no longer be viable for Arena? Will in-combat bonuses be the go-to for skillsets from now on? Only time, and opinions, may tell. I hope that IS has a way to balance things back into proper order, but all-in-all it's not such a terrible thing.

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Panic and Dull Ranged are commonly available effects: when going in blind, one should already be planning for if field buffs get shut down. Lull skills are probably stronger than those, but unless Claude/Dimitri demotes, they’ll be hard to obtain.

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1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Panic and Dull Ranged are commonly available effects: when going in blind, one should already be planning for if field buffs get shut down. Lull skills are probably stronger than those, but unless Claude/Dimitri demotes, they’ll be hard to obtain.

That's true, lack of real availability of the Lull skills will at least make it difficult for a lot of people to have them. But what about when we get more types, and more carriers, of them? What about when we get more powerful ones, such as Lull Atk/Spd or Lull Def/Res? Or even single-type versions, I could see Lull Spd with -4 or -5 as its debuff being pretty powerful on some fast units, especially with Swift Sparrow 3 being a thing.

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14 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

So are these Lull skills going to have any sort of effectiveness on Dull skills and such?

I'd say they're partially superior, since the Lull skills nullify Field Bonuses on any type of foe and inflict an in-combat debuff, even if they only do 2 stats at a time, while Dull does all 4. However, that would end up being pretty much moot point once IS starts turning Lull skills into seals. At that point, it would be more of an argument of effectiveness vs space.

Though now that you bring Dull up, I'm starting to get the feeling they might actually make the Lull line exclusive to Cavalry units. It'd be pretty dumb to come out with a superior version of a good skill (though I still do hope that the Lull like is non-exclusive).

EDIT: Also, I love your pfp 🙂

Edited by MilodicMellodi

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I mean, with all the Panic Weapons and Skills coming out lately, people have already been transitioning into Combat Buffs over Field Buffs.

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1 hour ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

So are these Lull skills going to have any sort of effectiveness on Dull skills and such?

They're more specific in their effects (targeting two stats instead of all of them), kind the trade-off it's being able to affect characters from both Melee and Ranged Weapons and have a base debuff effect.

We still don't know if the Skills have restrictions thought.

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I don't think these will affect enemy emblem teams all that much as they focus on wards, but will benefit your units who focus on 2 stats tremendously. 

The problem I have with dull skills is that their generalization comes at the cost of dividing into 2 different ranges as well as affecting all stats that you might not necessarily benefit all that much from. By restricting it to 2 stats you affect stats that are beneficial for you as well as the debuff giving you an extra edge. Did I mention that Lulls affect anyone regardless of range?

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You know what my first impression for Dull Skill kinda is? 5 seconds of hype and then "Will people use this over the already used B slot because it technically does make you weaker? its a glorifed Stats +3"

And thats pretty much it. Lets not forget in higher arenas, your pretty much fighting Armors and Armor were a complete utter joke without fighter skills. They are STILL not too dangerous with fighter skills, and lull is relased in an era where we have 90.000 options for stats stacking that isn't visible buff. Not using lull also means not using Null C Disrupt which means you can auto win with Healers

 

 

Emblem Team is already "unviable" in Arena since the days where we have to put all kill into a single basket for player side anyway, imo

 

Another thing i would note is it makes Rally skills even more of a useless garbage your forced to use than they already were

 

 

Oh as for Bladetomes dying? good riddance. fuck Nino

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

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You know, I wonder if this will end up meaning something for Fire Emblem as a whole? Landmaster is right, FEH's already started transitioning from Field Buffs to Combat Buffs (not as heavily as now, but still very noticable). Still, the fact that FEH is starting to prefer Combat Buffs over Field Buffs is starting to worry me a little.

It's like Awakening vs Fates. Awakening, especially in Apotheosis, was very much for the usage of Rally skills; in Fates, however, that focus pretty much shifted over to the Blow skills. Yes, people still used Rallybots in Fates, but skills like Death Blow and Darting Blow were used a lot more often, and Rallybots were more often than not human pack mules for Rainbow Tonics. Even in Three Houses, a most of the skills in that game (that we know of right now) that affect stats are during combat, the only real exceptions being the Faires (which have always acted as Field Bonuses) and the Ploys which obviously came from FEH itself.

Is Intelligent Systems starting to gravitate away from Field Bonuses as a whole, transitioning towards the more dynamic Combat Bonus mechanic? If so, what could this mean for Rally skills in future games (aside from Three Houses, of course), and what kinds of skills/mechanics will take precedent?

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Is there  any limitations to the enemies affected by Lull skills? Ploy skills affect enemies in cardinal direction, Sabotage skills affect enemies at beside of each other,and both still need the unit's RES to take effect, and Chill skills just affect enemies with the highest stat.  

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5 minutes ago, DraceEmpressa said:

Is there  any limitations to the enemies affected by Lull skills? Ploy skills affect enemies in cardinal direction, Sabotage skills affect enemies at beside of each other,and both still need the unit's RES to take effect, and Chill skills just affect enemies with the highest stat.  

Its basically dull skills with stats bonus, the only catch being it nulifies 2 select stats. Theres no limitation to it besides it being partial nulification. Which does make it one of the better B slot we seen so far

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I'd like to see that on my Selena or Athena. Both would make great use of these skills...Dull is already a nice B skill and this one makes Laevateinn and the Bladetome users cry. 

Thing is though, if we transition to Combat buffs like mentioned this skill may lose it strength. In AR there are already a lots of teams doing this.. Still the additional Debuff is nice to have.

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4 hours ago, redlight said:

I don't think these will affect enemy emblem teams all that much as they focus on wards, but will benefit your units who focus on 2 stats tremendously. 

The problem I have with dull skills is that their generalization comes at the cost of dividing into 2 different ranges as well as affecting all stats that you might not necessarily benefit all that much from. By restricting it to 2 stats you affect stats that are beneficial for you as well as the debuff giving you an extra edge. Did I mention that Lulls affect anyone regardless of range?

their generalization into 2 effects is specific, but you also should only use them on specific characters what you want to counter. -3 Atk and the ability to nullify Atk buffs, depending how executed can be okeish, if it nullifies all buffs even in combat buffs then they are extremely strong, because nullifying any Atk based in combat buffs makes the units running those skills that more bulky.

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Feels pretty underwhelming to me personally, although maybe that's because in pvp modes I don't use bladetomes as much as I used to. Since it's on a 4 unit banner it's a very expensive fodder to pull for, so it won't become a common sight for quite some time.

I can envision that it's main purpose will be to make some Abyssal pve units more obnoxious to kill, in the same manner as the random Dull Range/Close units, except neutering both bladetomes and Laev strategies due to their high bulk.

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It does not completely neuter Blade tomes. Blade tomes with 6/6/6/6 buffs can still get a decent +9 Atk against Lull Atk/Spd, and Brazen Atk/Spd Sacred Seal is usually more than enough to keep the unit at a Spd advantage.

I personally rather face Lulls than Dulls. Dulls force me to use either a ranged or melee unit to kill something. Lulls do not.

Edited by XRay

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I like luls a lot, atk/Def would be really good on Edelgard if I could get her and have a spare dimitri and spd/Def on my spring loki. As far as other luls go I believe Atk/res is going to be great on julius as it would stack with loptous and spd/res on julia as it would work nicely with refined divine Naga (though it would be less effective) and Atk spd on refined Naga (I am going for a spd build).

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I think the BST scoring system for Arena killed Emblem teams long before Lulls would have.  THis might hurt Arena Assault a little bit, but since that's only a once a week thing now anyway, it's not as big of a deal.

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I think this could be a great B slot for mixed or enemy phase characters who have enough speed to not need Quick Riposte.

 

Namely, I could see mah boi Innes gaining much more reliable match ups against mages, especially if they add a Lull Atk/Spd (though Atk/Def is also quite useful). And since it's dual phase, it could help patch together both aspects of his weapon. Mix with Fury in the A slot and Brazen Atk/Res for the Seal and you've got a pretty potent mixed phase magic counter.

Edited by Etheus

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