So far, what route would you call canon? (OBVIOUS SUPREME SPOILERS)

[Spectrum]

8 minutes ago, warchiefwilliams said:

So here is my question.

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Why is El's route so much shorter when compared to each of the other routes? 18 chapters to, what, 24 for the rest? The route spent a significant portion of time hyping up the future shadow war, only to hand-wave it away by saying the Emperor was able to stop it with Byleth and House Varley taking the lead. I would have very much liked to actually play out the hidden war against the mecha-wielding nutjobs, not have it glossed over in the epilogue. If they wanted to address the slither bois, we have 6 potential chapters. Maybe this will be one of the things addressed in the story DLC?

 

Spoiler

I believe this is related to the DLC or so I hope it is. Remember when Hubert said they will have to deal with TWISTD after conquering Fodlan? I honestly thought there was gonna be more chapters where we go against them. In my El and Byleth ending it said they dealt with TWISTD.

 

[warchiefwilliams]

1 minute ago, Spectrum said:

  Hide contents

I believe this is related to the DLC or so I hope it is. Remember when Hubert said they will have to deal with TWISTD after conquering Fodlan? I honestly thought there was gonna be more chapters where we go against them. In my El and Byleth ending it said they dealt with TWISTD.

 

Spoiler

The epilogue said something similar in the ending I got with Byleth and Bernie. I think whoever is S-Supported with Byleth will be part of the vanguard fighting TWISTD. Though if it is DLC, that would be slightly disappointing, as we kinda already know how its going to end, with a Fodlan Imperium victory.

 

[Moonlit Knight]

32 minutes ago, warchiefwilliams said:

So here is my question.

  Reveal hidden contents

Why is El's route so much shorter when compared to each of the other routes? 18 chapters to, what, 24 for the rest? The route spent a significant portion of time hyping up the future shadow war, only to hand-wave it away by saying the Emperor was able to stop it with Byleth and House Varley taking the lead. I would have very much liked to actually play out the hidden war against the mecha-wielding nutjobs, not have it glossed over in the epilogue. If they wanted to address the slither bois, we have 6 potential chapters. Maybe this will be one of the things addressed in the story DLC?

I'm working on a GD run now, and I have a BE/Church save at the ready, but so far, I still greatly prefer BE/El's route and, at least for myself, consider it to be the canon route, or at least my head-canon route. Though that being said, I would prefer it if there was no official canon route. As previously argued, by making a sequel based off of any of the routes inherently depreciates the other three.  

Well,

Spoiler

I’m sure you realize this already by which route you’re playing as, but the end of Golden Deer gives you what you want.

 

[Altrosa]

Both BL and GR routes set up Claude leaving Fodlan to try to unite his homeland, handing the Alliance off to either Dimitri or Byleth depending on with one you are playing. (not sure of church route yet)

I think THAT is the best path to make a sequel. 

 

To be honest, I sort of wish the truncated “join Edelgard” path with her brutally smashing the status quo and killing the majority of the cast in the name of imperialism and atheism when the other routes set up a united Fodlan with a reformed church had been the DLC side story. 

But the power of cute waifus and JRPG tropes are more powerful than off putting story progression. Edelgard is a great villain. 

 

[Moonlit Knight]

OK, I’ve done a bit of playing, and I have a question:

IS there ANY difference at all between the Golden Deer and Church routes post-skip? Having started with Golden Deer and now going to church route, it seems like it’s exactly the same, but with Seteth instead of Claude. The maps are all the same, the convos seem mostly the same... Is there any difference except for the final level and what information you learn from Rhea at the end?

Edited August 2, 2019 by Moonlit Knight

[Spectrum]

2 hours ago, Altrosa said:

Both BL and GR routes set up Claude leaving Fodlan to try to unite his homeland, handing the Alliance off to either Dimitri or Byleth depending on with one you are playing. (not sure of church route yet)

I think THAT is the best path to make a sequel. 

 

To be honest, I sort of wish the truncated “join Edelgard” path with her brutally smashing the status quo and killing the majority of the cast in the name of imperialism and atheism when the other routes set up a united Fodlan with a reformed church had been the DLC side story. 

But the power of cute waifus and JRPG tropes are more powerful than off putting story progression. Edelgard is a great villain. 

 

Nope, that's not the case at all, or at least not for me. Honestly, I feel like not a lot of people understand Edelgard's character because she's not the usual lord type like Dimitri. Edelgard is a very complex and an interesting character. She' might be a great 'villain' to a lot of people, but I wouldn't call her a villain at all. Maybe an anti-hero/anti-villain is closer.

It would be naive to think she can just go ahead and "convince" the other lords to suddenly unite Fodlan and delete the Church of Serios. Fodlan was never stable because the crests decided everything. There has always been war between the three countries because of them.The way Rhea and the Church of Serios controlled Fodlan over the years was brutal; those who opposed the church died without mercy or even given a second chance because they were "wicked". Also, Edelgard always gave the people against her a chance to surrender. When Dimitri knew he was losing anyways, she asked him to surrender, but he still refused and blamed her for the Tragedy of Duscar which she DENIED involvement in it more than once. In Dimitri's route, she agreed to meet Dimitri and explain things to him. She's not as brutal and irrational as people make her seem to be, yet she's not a hero in any way. She also keeps Claude alive which shows a lot to her character. Even though she was conquering, she still tried to avoid unnecessary bloodshed as much as possible like, as long as people stop opposing her and surrender, she will gladly spare them. "Reforming" the church while crests still exists seems more like a dream tbh. Uniting Fodlan and free them from the false gods and the entire crest system and give humanity a chance to live for themselves seems a very much better ending. In general, that's my opinion and my take on the story. I wish people would stop bashing Edelgard because of the "she's a waifu material" stuff. 

[0 Def Cleric]

15 minutes ago, Spectrum said:

She also keeps Claude alive which shows a lot to her character. Even though she was conquering, she still tried to avoid unnecessary bloodshed as much as possible like, as long as people stop opposing her and surrender, she will gladly spare them.

People going on about Edelgard's route having "a lot more bloodshed" or whatnot forget that Dimitri, Dedue, Rhea, Catherine, Seteth, and Flayn are the only guaranteed casualties. That's not a lot. (I'm discounting Hilda because she's not a required commander for chapter completion.) Definitely not "perfect hero" levels of saving everyone, but certainly not on the Arvis levels of "ends-justify-the-means" that I see her getting categorized as a lot. 

 

[Spectrum]

1 minute ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

People going on about Edelgard's route having "a lot more bloodshed" or whatnot forget that Dimitri, Dedue, Rhea, Catherine, Seteth, and Flayn are the only guaranteed casualties. That's not a lot. (I'm discounting Hilda because she's not a required commander for chapter completion.) Definitely not "perfect hero" levels of saving everyone, but certainly not on the Arvis levels of "ends-justify-the-means" that I see her getting categorized as a lot. 

  

Exactly. That was what I was trying to say.

[Timlugia]

13 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

People going on about Edelgard's route having "a lot more bloodshed" or whatnot forget that Dimitri, Dedue, Rhea, Catherine, Seteth, and Flayn are the only guaranteed casualties. That's not a lot. (I'm discounting Hilda because she's not a required commander for chapter completion.) Definitely not "perfect hero" levels of saving everyone, but certainly not on the Arvis levels of "ends-justify-the-means" that I see her getting categorized as a lot. 

 

How about all the namesless civilian? They are the true victim

 

32 minutes ago, Spectrum said:

She's not as brutal and irrational as people make her seem to be, yet she's not a hero in any way. She also

 

Right, even if she really didn't participated Duscar, that's just one of many implications against her. How about participating in murdering of Jeralt? How about sending punitive expedition to Brigid and attempt assassination the king?(Petra's paralogue) Appointing ruthless governors over occupied territories with forced conscription or execution? (Ferdinand's paralouge), calling orbital strike on her own city full of civilians? (Battle of Fort Mercie) Creation of armies of demonic beasts?

 

Seriously,  if we don't take it from godview/hindsight, but as Byleth in the Holy Tomb finding out Edelgard was Flame Emperor, could you really support her over the fact known her associations just murdered your dad recently?

Edited August 3, 2019 by Timlugia

[Flere210]

Just now, 0 Def Cleric said:

People going on about Edelgard's route having "a lot more bloodshed" or whatnot forget that Dimitri, Dedue, Rhea, Catherine, Seteth, and Flayn are the only guaranteed casualties. That's not a lot. (I'm discounting Hilda because she's not a required commander for chapter completion.) Definitely not "perfect hero" levels of saving everyone, but certainly not on the Arvis levels of "ends-justify-the-means" that I see her getting categorized as a lot. 

 

Because the only people that exist i  Foodlan are those that can be part of your army and Edelgard is like Corrin and fight battles whitout killing anyone...

The barbecue only killed Sigurd and it's entourage, but not many rank and file soldiers, is way less bloodshed compared to a war(wich us how Tywin Lannister justified you know what lol)  most of the victim of Arvis reign were not killed by him, but by people that he cannot control. Wich lead to another problem. We are not guaranteed that Edelgard can actually stop TWSITD whitout a bloodshed of civilians.

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, Timlugia said:

Right, how about participating in murdering of Jeralt? How about sending punitive expedition to Brigid and attempt assassination of the king?(Petra's paralogue) Appointing ruthless governors over occupied territories with forced conscription or execution? (Ferdinand's paralouge), calling orbital strike on her own city full of civilians? (Battle of Fort Mercie) Creation of armies of demonic beasts?

Ah yes, all the things that she specifically is against doing, in her own route? Murdering Jeralt: she calls out TWSITD (as the flame emperor) calling it an unnecessary measure. Expedition to Brigid: does not happen in her own route, Church does the attempted assassination of Brigid's king. If we're to call her out for her war crimes, we must call out the Church as well. Fort Mercie: Again, those who slither are the ones performing the orbital strike, which in her own route directly conflicts with her goals (keeping Lord Rowe alive to work with him.) Hard to blame her for that. Creation of Demonic Beasts? Church does that as well, with their golems that indiscriminately wreck towns. In addition, she can't control those who slither in the dark. That's key. 

Just now, Flere210 said:

Because the only people that exist i  Foodlan are those that can be part of your army and Edelgard is like Corrin and fight battles whitout killing anyone...

The barbecue only killed Sigurd and it's entourage, but not many rank and file soldiers, is way less bloodshed compared to a war(wich us how Tywin Lannister justified you know what lol)  most of the victim of Arvis reign were not killed by him, but by people that he cannot control. Wich lead to another problem. We are not guaranteed that Edelgard can actually stop TWSITD whitout a bloodshed of civilians.

It's perfectly possible, in a game with warping magic, to send your strongest attacker up to the enemy commander and kill them in one strike, preventing bloodshed. Which is, you know, something that Edelgard is shown to be capable of doing as early as Chapter 2 of the story. But certainly, let's take that into consideration. Edelgard shortens the war by 4 months if you take her route, considerably preventing civilian casualties by virtue of, you know, there not being a war on. 

We're not guaranteed that anyone can stop those who slither without bloodshed of civilians. Their whole point is that they use underhanded tactics when they're in a pinch. Unless they're all silently assassinated, like Hubert says that he intends to do in his paralogue, there will be civilian bloodshed when fighting unethical enemies like them.

...Oh, and Arvis still conspired with Langbalt, who allowed bandits to set fire to towns in his territory if they supported Sigurd's forces. You know, civilian casualties and all that?

[Timlugia]

20 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Ah yes, all the things that she specifically is against doing, in her own route? Murdering Jeralt: she calls out TWSITD (as the flame emperor) calling it an unnecessary measure. Expedition to Brigid: does not happen in her own route, Church does the attempted assassination of Brigid's king. If we're to call her out for her war crimes, we must call out the Church as well. Fort Mercie: Again, those who slither are the ones performing the orbital strike, which in her own route directly conflicts with her goals (keeping Lord Rowe alive to work with him.) Hard to blame her for that. Creation of Demonic Beasts? Church does that as well, with their golems that indiscriminately wreck towns. In addition, she can't control those who slither in the dark. That's key. 

 

Sorry, but that's you have be more than Hubert level of loyalty to her to really believe all these claims, even Hubert in the end decided against her.

Do you really believes that Edelgard would still be in alliance with TWSITD after they destroyed the most important fortress city of Empire, with large numbers of civilians, without her permission? How do you explain Death Knight knows exactly when the strike arrives? Or all the Agraian soldiers fighting for her in the capital? Or that she kept the secret for TWSITD even in the face of death, it was actually Hubert rattle them out in his death letter for Byleth.

Of course she claimed she didn't agree with killing Jeralt, but her action speaks otherwise. She knew who exactly Monica was, she and Death Knight were there in the level you "rescue" Monica. Monica was placed there by them as a bait. Many student pointed out Edelgard and Monica spent time in many secret meeting.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Timlugia

[Altrosa]

Edelgard’s whole schtick is an “ends justify the means.” She straight up says she knows the hypocrisy behind declaring war to END bloodshed despite the damage the war will cause to unify Fodlan and destroy the church. 

Her power hungry nature makes perfect sense when you know about the coup that stripped power from her father for the nobles and her exile in Faerghas, and her decision to destroy the church was rooted in her desire return Adrestian rule to the whole continent after the church allowed it to break apart, twice. Even her conspiring with TWSITD was to gain an upper hand in the war. 

 

Just because Edel’s character and motivations are understandable and entertaining does not make her a hero or even anti-hero. She’s a megalomaniac convinced her version of Fodlan was superior and was going to create that by any means necessary. And we players have the option to help her. 

 

I think I just have an issue with the idea her route had less bloodshed when SHE DECLARED WAR in the first place. 

 

 

Mind you, while we argue over Edelgard, Dimitri only got away with being a murder hobo based entirely on the fact he was the prince. If he were ANYONE else, of any lower status than being the last of the Blaiddyd, he wouldn’t have been given any option to right his ways let alone had those around him try to help him through his schizophrenic outbursts. Like, damn. 

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, Timlugia said:

Sorry, but that's you have be more than Hubert level of loyalty to her to really believe all these claims, even Hubert in the end decided against her.

Do you really believes that Edelgard would still be in alliance with TWSITD after they destroyed the most important fortress city of Empire, with large numbers of civilians, without her permission? How do you explain Death Knight knows exactly when the strike arrives? Or all the Agraian soldiers fighting for her in the capital? Or that she kept the secret for TWSITD even in the face of death, it was actually Hubert rattle them out in his death letter for Byleth.

...Probably the fact that it's explained in her route? By Lord Arundel himself? You... do realize that she acts differently in each route, right? For example, the orbital missiles in her route come from those who slither as retaliation for killing Cornelia, one of their own. I'm talking solely about her route here. Everyone except Claude goes somewhat off the rails when you don't choose their route. Of course, if you're coming at it from a Blue Lions perspective, my mistake; she's obviously a cartoon villain there. If you want to discuss the way she acts in her own route, though, it's obvious that the church is behind the assassination plot of Petra's grandfather, owing to them being there as soldiers and attempting to kill Petra; the Flame Emperor chides Those Who Slither on Jeralt's killing when they're not in contact with you, giving her no reason to go against them other than true disagreement. I'm simply talking about her not being a villain in her own route, because objectively, she is not. If we're talking about the actions of every route, we could talk about how Dimitri decided to work with an obviously deranged dragon who sets fire to his own capital city simply to harm you, or the fact that he uses Cornelia, one of those who slither in the dark herself, as one of his commanding generals. 

Just saying, the lords do act differently in different routes. Everyone is most sympathetic when Byleth is beside them. 

[Flere210]

There won't be a war in the first place if it was not for Edelgard's actions, be it long or short. Sure, eventually some conflict will arise because the three nations had a lot of tensions, but "a war would start anyway" is a terrible excuse for starting one. 

The only difference between Edelgard and Arvis or other villains of that archetype is that you get to see things from the girl's perspective. If we had a few support conversations about his backstory and plans for Jugdral, Arvis would not look as bad for torching Sigurd's Army.

At least two villains of the archetype, Rudolph and Walmart, specifically wanted to free humanity from the tyranny of the gods, and at least in Rudolph's case, the gods were as controlling as the church of Seiros. She may be a better character, but she ia not a better person than the other emperors.

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Flere210

[Altrosa]

1 minute ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Just saying, the lords do act differently in different routes. Everyone is most sympathetic when Byleth is beside them. 

That more or less launches the whole point of the initial discussion out the window. Which route is cannon? None of them. 

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, Flere210 said:

There won't be a war in the first place if it was not for Edelgard's actions, be it long or short. Sure, eventually some conflict will arise because the three nations had a lot of tensions, but "a war would start anyway" is a terrible excuse for starting one. 

The only difference between Edelgard and Arvis or other villains of that archetype is that you get to see thing from the girl's perspective. If we had a few support conversations about his backstory and plans for Jugdral, Arvis would not look as bad for torching Sigurd's Army.

At least two villains of the archetype, Rudolph and Walmart, specifically wanted to free humanity from the tyranny of the gods, and at least in Rudolph's case, the gods were as controlling as the church of Seiros. She may be a better character, but she ia not a better person than the other emperors.

Starting a war that ends with minimal civilian casualties to end the nobility's abuse of their roles is a justifiable reason to start one, in my personal opinion. Rudolph is portrayed as a hero who intentionally acted villainous in order to make his son strong enough to defeat Duma, so I don't know why you're bringing him up here. By all rights, Walhart would have been a hero, had it not been for those he chose as his subordinates. 

Which is the reason why Edelgard is a villain when you don't choose her route, because she bends to the wishes of her subordinates. (Mind you, said subordinates are directly responsible for her childhood medical trauma!) 

Arvis is only a villain because he allows himself to be influenced by those he thinks subordinate to him, again. He's not a hero by any means, but were he not foolish enough to trust the Loptous Cult, he would have gone down in history as one, for his years of peaceful rule. Not trying to argue that Edelgard is a paragon of virtue, here, simply that she's not the she-devil that Blue Lions makes her on every route. She's simply a morally ambiguous woman with the chance, given guidance, to help the world become a better place. (Without guidance she's a traumatized 23-year-old who makes irrational decisions.)

Just now, Altrosa said:

That more or less launches the whole point of the initial discussion out the window. Which route is cannon? None of them. 

Exactly. The only argument I've been making is "Edelgard's route isn't a bonus villain route because she's not the villain on it." Not that it's canon, even though the game pushes for it hard in the intro, in the same way that Chrom/Sumia isn't canon. 

[Timlugia]

12 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Just saying, the lords do act differently in different routes. Everyone is most sympathetic when Byleth is beside them. 

My view was based on how they would do without Byleth's influence.

And by the way, even if Edelgard didn't order events like Dascur, Jeralt or Cornelia directly,

allied with TWSITD, providing soldiers and material for them after well knowing who they are is still guilty by association under any standard.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Timlugia

[mrwanton]

I mean.. even without Byleth, Claude doesn't act differently. Only Dimitri and Edlegard go off the deep end.

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, Timlugia said:

My view was based on how they would do without Byleth's influence.

And by the way, even if Edelgard didn't order events like Dascur, Jeralt or Cornelia directly,

allied with TWSITD, providing soldiers and material for them after well knowing who they are is still guilty by association under any standard.

They provided soldiers and material for her, not the other way around. Had she not needed them to win the war, she would have annihilated them instantly, on her route. Again... the man who leads them is the most powerful man in the adrestian empire. And oh, without Byleth's influence? In that case, Rhea torches a town full of civilians and implies that she'll flay anyone who opposes her alive, and Dimitri's a borderline dissociative traumatized wreck who becomes obsessed with the idea of Edelgard's demise. 

Basically, the canon route should be that Claude puts everyone out of their misery. 

[Timlugia]

Quote

And oh, without Byleth's influence? In that case, Rhea torches a town full of civilians and implies that she'll flay anyone who opposes her alive, and Dimitri's a borderline dissociative traumatized wreck who becomes obsessed with the idea of Edelgard's demise. 

Yet this only happens in Edelgard's path, and has to do with Edelgard as well. In all other paths, even without Byleth on her side, Rhea would step down and hand over her position.

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, Timlugia said:

Yet this only happens in Edelgard's path, and has to do with Edelgard as well. In all other paths, even without Byleth on her side, Rhea would step down and hand over her position.

Fine. Doesn't get rid of how Dimitri acts, though. 
Again, may I ask you which paths you've played?

[Timlugia]

Both BE, and currently Claude, but already watched most cutscenes

Oh don't forget 

"I have placed Death Knight under your command from now on, use him well"

You sure that Edelgard doesn't provide for TWSITD?

Edited August 3, 2019 by Timlugia

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, Timlugia said:

Both BE, and currently Claude, but already watched most cutscenes

Oh don't forget 

"I have placed Death Knight under your command from now on, use him well"

You sure that Edelgard doesn't provide TWSITD?

With... one guy? 
Anyway, good night to this argument. You're making more and more reaches, so I'm going to go do constructive things instead. 

[Water Mage]

Personally Edelgard’s biggest flaw is that she never explain the reason for her actions.

Sure, Dimitri may look like a fool in the BE route, where he goes against Edelgard and side with Rhea. But does Edelgard ever gives him a reason for why she’s doing things? No wonder Dimitri and others think of her as power hungry tyrant. He never had a reason for not attacking Edelgard.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Water Mage