Fire Emblem Three Houses Unit Tier Lists

[Garlyle]

Ok, I am now confident that Cyril is the worst unit in the game.

Checking the numbers on the main site it turns out Cyril's bases and growths are the worst (64 bases, 215% growth), which is even lower than Lysithea. Thanks to his personal skill he gains +20% growth to all his stats, but that's just bad to begin with, because other units have actual personal skills that can be utilized. Even with the extra growth rates, the only growths that excel are Dex and Spd, which means he can potentially can be screwed in both offense AND defense. So statwise, he's most likely going to disappoint.

But we learned that stats alone won't make a top tier unit in 3H, so let's look at the skills. Magic has nothing outstanding, in Reason he'd only get Wind and Cutting Gale, while Faith has standard skills and Recover. Considering his low Mag stat, he should avoid levelling those. In Lances he can get Vengeance and Lance Jab, both skills are stat based in effectiveness, so he should avoid using those. He starts with D+ Axes and unlocks Monster Breaker and Armored Strike. Armored Strike is once again stat based, and while Monster Breaker sounds nice and rare, due to his possibly screwed strength value it won't be that great - but I'll admit, anti-monster skills are always nice. Last one is a bow skill, where he start in D and gets Point-Blank Volley on C+, which triggers 2 consecutive hits. Problem is - it's a 1 range skill, and only give +3 Mt and +10 Hit. Considering that he might be blessed in Speed, this skill is once again a terrible choice for him.

He has no Budding Talent or any other hidden talent, in a game where most units need training - Cyril just fail to excel in anything. Change my mind.

[Tharne]

26 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

Even with the extra growth rates, the only growths that excel are Dex and Spd, which means he can potentially can be screwed in both offense AND defense. So statwise, he's most likely going to disappoint.

Offensively (with the +20%) Str/Dex/Spd : 40/60/60 is like top 5 in the game, I'd say only Dimitri and Edelgard (maybe Felix/Catherine ?) are better. Those are better (by like 5%) than Claude. (Mag : At 35% he's still above average when you look at everyone)
Defensively (with +20%) HP/Def/Res(/Luck for that sweet crit evade) : 55/30/30(/50) is still better than 3/4 (if not more) of the other students.

If he can get screwed, literally anyone can.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Tharne

[Garlyle]

25 minutes ago, Tharne said:

Offensively (with the +20%) Str/Dex/Spd : 40/60/60 is like top 5 in the game, I'd say only Dimitri and Edelgard (maybe Felix/Catherine ?) are better. Those are better (by like 5%) than Claude. (Mag : At 35% he's still above average when you look at everyone)
Defensively (with +20%) HP/Def/Res(/Luck for that sweet crit evade) : 55/30/30(/50) is still better than 3/4 (if not more) of the other students.

If he can get screwed, literally anyone can.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Some units are better off in physical offense and some are better with magical offense, and if you check the Str and Mag bases and growths separately, it' not looking that great for him. He is starting better in Str, so if we look at the others, they already have a head start in offensive stats compared to him. Bernadetta might be challenged, but she has way better bow skills, and she gets Atk +5 when damaged. Ashe could also fall behind when screwed, but he still has lockpick utility, so small profit.

Defensively he doesn't start off good either, and with growths it takes too long to make it valuable. Considering the low starting speed, he could also get doubled, but also die because of that. Just saying if he's bad in offense and defense at the start and he doesn't have much to get him out of that, it's not worth to train him instead of someone else. You probably find someone who is much better for the job he's doing.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Ok, I am now confident that Cyril is the worst unit in the game.

Checking the numbers on the main site it turns out Cyril's bases and growths are the worst (64 bases, 215% growth), which is even lower than Lysithea. Thanks to his personal skill he gains +20% growth to all his stats, but that's just bad to begin with, because other units have actual personal skills that can be utilized. Even with the extra growth rates, the only growths that excel are Dex and Spd, which means he can potentially can be screwed in both offense AND defense. So statwise, he's most likely going to disappoint.

But we learned that stats alone won't make a top tier unit in 3H, so let's look at the skills. Magic has nothing outstanding, in Reason he'd only get Wind and Cutting Gale, while Faith has standard skills and Recover. Considering his low Mag stat, he should avoid levelling those. In Lances he can get Vengeance and Lance Jab, both skills are stat based in effectiveness, so he should avoid using those. He starts with D+ Axes and unlocks Monster Breaker and Armored Strike. Armored Strike is once again stat based, and while Monster Breaker sounds nice and rare, due to his possibly screwed strength value it won't be that great - but I'll admit, anti-monster skills are always nice. Last one is a bow skill, where he start in D and gets Point-Blank Volley on C+, which triggers 2 consecutive hits. Problem is - it's a 1 range skill, and only give +3 Mt and +10 Hit. Considering that he might be blessed in Speed, this skill is once again a terrible choice for him.

He has no Budding Talent or any other hidden talent, in a game where most units need training - Cyril just fail to excel in anything. Change my mind.

I dunno - I think Raphael isn't much better. That 15 speed growth is no good for a frontliner, and his personal is even worse than Cyril's (granted, other units have personals that are actually useful, but Raphael is NOT one of them - I don't see a chance to heal less HP than a vulnerary [unless it happens to be a misprint and it actually does heal 10 HP] as good). Granted, his defensive failings might go away once he gets to Fortress Knight or something, but until then, trying to make him actually useful is just suffering.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Technoweirdo]

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Ok, I am now confident that Cyril is the worst unit in the game.

Checking the numbers on the main site it turns out Cyril's bases and growths are the worst (64 bases, 215% growth), which is even lower than Lysithea. Thanks to his personal skill he gains +20% growth to all his stats, but that's just bad to begin with, because other units have actual personal skills that can be utilized. Even with the extra growth rates, the only growths that excel are Dex and Spd, which means he can potentially can be screwed in both offense AND defense. So statwise, he's most likely going to disappoint.

But we learned that stats alone won't make a top tier unit in 3H, so let's look at the skills. Magic has nothing outstanding, in Reason he'd only get Wind and Cutting Gale, while Faith has standard skills and Recover. Considering his low Mag stat, he should avoid levelling those. In Lances he can get Vengeance and Lance Jab, both skills are stat based in effectiveness, so he should avoid using those. He starts with D+ Axes and unlocks Monster Breaker and Armored Strike. Armored Strike is once again stat based, and while Monster Breaker sounds nice and rare, due to his possibly screwed strength value it won't be that great - but I'll admit, anti-monster skills are always nice. Last one is a bow skill, where he start in D and gets Point-Blank Volley on C+, which triggers 2 consecutive hits. Problem is - it's a 1 range skill, and only give +3 Mt and +10 Hit. Considering that he might be blessed in Speed, this skill is once again a terrible choice for him.

He has no Budding Talent or any other hidden talent, in a game where most units need training - Cyril just fail to excel in anything. Change my mind.

Re: Point-Blank Volley
Point-Blank Volley is learned at C+ for Cyril;
He learns a Brave-like Combat Art at C+.
The others who learn Brave-likes -- Ferdinand, Sylvain, Leonie, Seteth -- all learn theirs at A.
It's a massive power spike that lets him start competing very quickly even as his growths haven't quite let him catch up yet.

Even if you have all the Spd in the world to naturally double anything, sometimes that's not enough.
Sometimes you need to double while evading a hit. This ignores the evasion part -- and then adds extra Mt and Hit for no good reason.
And if you don't have all the Spd in the world to double everything, you ignore needing all the Spd too.
Lets him get away with dumb things like using normally prohibitively heavy Steel weapons in the early game. Or shooting Assassins. Screw Assassins.

Requires being at 1-range, yes. That's why the kid's proficient in Flying and Riding on top of Bows.
Can use a mounted class' movement to get in, pick off a target, and get the hell out.
Snipers might have the better Art for picking off a target, but they also lack Canto for getting out.
They also don't move as far, and some maps restrict your movement even more.

Re: Growths
When everybody starts at Lv. 1, everybody's a growth unit.
I have a Lysithea with 22 Spd at Lv. 34. I have a Raphael with 23 Spd at Lv. 34.
Yes, the guy with a 15% Spd growth is faster than someone with 50%.
Could get a Cyril with 15. Could get 30.
--But he's less likely to end up at 15.

-----

Far as I'm concerned, his personal ability is Solid Kit, Solid Growths.

[freewaffles]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - I think Raphael isn't much better. That 15 speed growth is no good for a frontliner, and his personal is even worse than Cyril's (granted, other units have personals that are actually useful, but Raphael is NOT one of them - I don't see a chance to heal less HP than a vulnerary [unless it happens to be a misprint and it actually does heal 10 HP] as good). Granted, his defensive failings might go away once he gets to Fortress Knight or something, but until then, trying to make him actually useful is just suffering.

Gauntlets make up for Raphael's speed.  Silver gauntlets weight are completely negated by Heavy Armor C rank.  Make him a Grappler/Warmaster and he'll have the speed to quad hit many enemies.

That said, Caspar is better.

[Garlyle]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - I think Raphael isn't much better. That 15 speed growth is no good for a frontliner, and his personal is even worse than Cyril's (granted, other units have personals that are actually useful, but Raphael is NOT one of them - I don't see a chance to heal less HP than a vulnerary [unless it happens to be a misprint and it actually does heal 10 HP] as good). Granted, his defensive failings might go away once he gets to Fortress Knight or something, but until then, trying to make him actually useful is just suffering.

To be honest I never really relied on his personal ability, as it's a chance base ability with lower odds than my liking. I stand with my point that he should have good to great bulk and strength, and the low speed was the reason I decided to go with gauntlet for a long time.

13 minutes ago, Technoweirdo said:

Re: Point-Blank Volley

1 range is still my biggest issue with it. This game is pretty nice to archers with Close Counter and potential 3+ ranges to target enemies. To get this boy Canto, he not only needs to train in the mounted class, but also at least another weapon class as well, as none of them starts with just bow, rather lances or axes - latter which seems to be what he should focus on. It might not be his late game skill, as Speed would be his lesser problem in stats, plus that extra few damage for double durability cost is not that sufficient then. Steel Bows sounds good for the kill in early game IF it gets the kill. If somehow it doesn't kill, the enemy can counterattack, and fliers are fast and have 1 range attacks - they can be actually bad news in hard mode. What I mean is I rather snipe them from long range instead of going in with Cyril for a potential double attack.

26 minutes ago, Technoweirdo said:

Re: Growths

When you are 12 points behind in bases than the average, you really need growth rates. Other can get screwed, but so can he. All I see that he might get better Dex and Spd, but that's not enough. If he gets good, great - but I'd rather gamble on a unit who has something to bring to the table regardless.

[redlight]

3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Checking the numbers on the main site it turns out Cyril's bases and growths are the worst (64 bases, 215% growth), which is even lower than Lysithea. Thanks to his personal skill he gains +20% growth to all his stats, but that's just bad to begin with, because other units have actual personal skills that can be utilized.

Most of the personal skills lose relevancy post-early game. A lot of skills early game were position related so they were good when your units all had the same move. After promoting all of them will have differing move. And most personals are incredibly minor boosts.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, freewaffles said:

Gauntlets make up for Raphael's speed.  Silver gauntlets weight are completely negated by Heavy Armor C rank.  Make him a Grappler/Warmaster and he'll have the speed to quad hit many enemies.

 That said, Caspar is better.

See my other comment about the Morton's fork Raphael forces me to deal with - either he has to use the weakest weapons in the game and gimp his damage output, which is bad, or he risks getting doubled, which is also bad. I don't see what he brings to the table as making up for this.

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

To be honest I never really relied on his personal ability, as it's a chance base ability with lower odds than my liking. I stand with my point that he should have good to great bulk and strength, and the low speed was the reason I decided to go with gauntlet for a long time.

But why in the name of Seiros would I want Raphael to tank when he's worse at it than Hilda, Byleth or Leonie, who rarely, if ever, have to worry about being doubled???

Edited August 7, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Technoweirdo]

24 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

To be honest I never really relied on his personal ability, as it's a chance base ability with lower odds than my liking. I stand with my point that he should have good to great bulk and strength, and the low speed was the reason I decided to go with gauntlet for a long time.

1 range is still my biggest issue with it. This game is pretty nice to archers with Close Counter and potential 3+ ranges to target enemies. To get this boy Canto, he not only needs to train in the mounted class, but also at least another weapon class as well, as none of them starts with just bow, rather lances or axes - latter which seems to be what he should focus on. It might not be his late game skill, as Speed would be his lesser problem in stats, plus that extra few damage for double durability cost is not that sufficient then. Steel Bows sounds good for the kill in early game IF it gets the kill. If somehow it doesn't kill, the enemy can counterattack, and fliers are fast and have 1 range attacks - they can be actually bad news in hard mode. What I mean is I rather snipe them from long range instead of going in with Cyril for a potential double attack.

When you are 12 points behind in bases than the average, you really need growth rates. Other can get screwed, but so can he. All I see that he might get better Dex and Spd, but that's not enough. If he gets good, great - but I'd rather gamble on a unit who has something to bring to the table regardless.

Re: Getting Canto
Leonie has to train in Lances and Riding on top of Bows to get into her endgame of being a Bow Knight.
Leonie had no problem going Cavalier -> Paladin -> Bow Knight for me. Cyril will be fine too as he's proficient in all three like her.

He does, though, have the additional option of a Wyvern Lord endgame and is what I made him.
Requires not going Cavalier unless you want a crazy training schedule of Cavalier -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord,
Instead favoring Brigand -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord.
Will still require training Lances on top of Axes and Flying, but it's a very merciful C (and Rider's already good enough that you can wait a bit on Wyvern Lord).
Helps that, by the time you're thinking about Wyverns, you can use statues to boost Flying training.

Re: What if they don't die from a Point-Blank Volley?
I'll repeat that Point-Blank Volley lets Cyril hit somebody with a Steel Bow+. Twice. Before getting hit. With added Mt for no reason.
That's 11 combined Mt over Steel Gauntlets+ or 22 dmg, for the record. That's a tough hurdle to overcome even for the likes of Raphael.
There are very, very few targets who will live through that.
Those who do live...will probably give a lot more than just Cyril problems.

Re: Durability costs
Steel weapons are second only to Training weapons in terms of durability, making them very unlikely to go from pristine to broken in one battle.
Both are also repairable with Smithing Stones that you can buy in bulk, and you get a lot of gold to buy things in bulk.

Basically, don't worry. Hell, spam it with Training+ if you want. Or pack both Training+ and Steel+ for things you want dead and things you want dead on the cheap.

Re: What if a flier gets in on me?
Yeah, I hate those guys just like I hate Assassins.
That said, you have Close Counter and Steel Bow+. Assassins should have Bow weakness.
If they don't die from that and murder you, they'd murder your other archers too.
Frankly, they just murder most people, period. Like Assassins.
It's really hard to think of "Death by flier" as a severe black mark on him when they're a mark on almost everyone.

Point-Blank's an aggressive option; You don't have to always go for it. 
You can play lame and he'll be fine playing lame like other archers.
That said, it's a powerful option that only gets better as you progress.

[Errorik]

5 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Ok, I am now confident that Cyril is the worst unit in the game.

Checking the numbers on the main site it turns out Cyril's bases and growths are the worst (64 bases, 215% growth), which is even lower than Lysithea. Thanks to his personal skill he gains +20% growth to all his stats, but that's just bad to begin with, because other units have actual personal skills that can be utilized. Even with the extra growth rates, the only growths that excel are Dex and Spd, which means he can potentially can be screwed in both offense AND defense. So statwise, he's most likely going to disappoint.

But we learned that stats alone won't make a top tier unit in 3H, so let's look at the skills. Magic has nothing outstanding, in Reason he'd only get Wind and Cutting Gale, while Faith has standard skills and Recover. Considering his low Mag stat, he should avoid levelling those. In Lances he can get Vengeance and Lance Jab, both skills are stat based in effectiveness, so he should avoid using those. He starts with D+ Axes and unlocks Monster Breaker and Armored Strike. Armored Strike is once again stat based, and while Monster Breaker sounds nice and rare, due to his possibly screwed strength value it won't be that great - but I'll admit, anti-monster skills are always nice. Last one is a bow skill, where he start in D and gets Point-Blank Volley on C+, which triggers 2 consecutive hits. Problem is - it's a 1 range skill, and only give +3 Mt and +10 Hit. Considering that he might be blessed in Speed, this skill is once again a terrible choice for him.

He has no Budding Talent or any other hidden talent, in a game where most units need training - Cyril just fail to excel in anything. Change my mind.

Villager units being really bad? I'm shocked! (They're always bad)...

[redlight]

37 minutes ago, Centh said:

Villager units being really bad? I'm shocked! (They're always bad)...

Nah. His level is rather close to yours when you get him. From what I understand his stats are generated by base + "level ups" until current level. Whether or not those bases are generated with base growths or modified growths is unknown to me. 

EDIT: Plus he has good skill proficiencies. I really fucked him up because I didn't know what to do

Edited August 7, 2019 by redlight

[ck425]

6 hours ago, Garlyle said:

In Lances he can get Vengeance and Lance Jab, both skills are stat based in effectiveness, so he should avoid using those

They're based on Speed and HP, both of which he's has great growths in when you factor in aptitude.

[Garlyle]

1 hour ago, ck425 said:

They're based on Speed and HP, both of which he's has great growths in when you factor in aptitude.

Vengeance is not really based on the Max HP, but rather on the lost HP, which makes it less reliable and probably very situational. Lance Jab got me thinking again, and that sounds workable if he gets blessed in Speed and screwed in Strength - but that's probably end game skills for him only, since it unlock at A rank in lances, where he starts with none.

2 hours ago, Technoweirdo said:

Re: What if they don't die from a Point-Blank Volley?
I'll repeat that Point-Blank Volley lets Cyril hit somebody with a Steel Bow+. Twice. Before getting hit. With added Mt for no reason.
That's 11 combined Mt over Steel Gauntlets+ or 22 dmg, for the record. That's a tough hurdle to overcome even for the likes of Raphael.
There are very, very few targets who will live through that.
Those who do live...will probably give a lot more than just Cyril problems.

Now hold on just a second. Raphael compared to Cyril starts with 4 points of extra strength and 10% strength growth even after you calculate in the personal skill bonus of Cyril. But the better reason I'd run in with Raphael and a gauntlet instead of Cyril with a bow is because Raphael can stand better on the front line with his high HP and Defense. I can imagine more situations where that'd work out, but if we picture a scenario where Cyril only has to worry about a 1-on-1, then yes - he's better with that in the early game.

3 hours ago, Technoweirdo said:

Re: Durability costs
Steel weapons are second only to Training weapons in terms of durability, making them very unlikely to go from pristine to broken in one battle.
Both are also repairable with Smithing Stones that you can buy in bulk, and you get a lot of gold to buy things in bulk.

Basically, don't worry. Hell, spam it with Training+ if you want. Or pack both Training+ and Steel+ for things you want dead and things you want dead on the cheap.

I can relate to this, I had 100k bank on my first run for a long time. And I used quite a number of Iron and Steel weapons. If you really want to spend that much on Cyril, then you can it by all means, but wouldn't it be better for others?

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/6/2019 at 1:37 AM, Nankaina said:

Spoiler

Shamir: The Dex on this woman is unreal. Get her to be an Assassin as soon as you can get her on your team, grind to the class mastery (it'll be easy, since she dodges everything anyway and is literally designed to throw herself into enemy territory and let them all charge her), and watch her become the best Lethality user the entire game series has ever seen. And if that's not enough, she's a pre-promote who doesn't fall behind in stats when the other units start promoting, and the best bowman in the game bar none.

 

Bold: Which says very, VERY little, since Lethality activates so infrequently you'd do well to NOT use it. Not to mention the effort needed to master Assassin, which is enough to make Lethality the useless pile of manure it's pretty much always been.

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Vorena]

I think its time to start creating a metric for such a discussion on a tier list.

Are we going to assume hard mode? Normal mode? New game+ viability? My thought would be no new game+. Remove Statue bonuses. This more greatly exemplifies a units strengths and weaknesses since instructor tutoring on a weakness wlvl means less wexp. A proficient training without instructor expertise is a +6/9/12 boost . Meanwhile a weakness becomes +2/3/4. Over 4 sessions thats 8-16 versus 24-48. Quite the difference in training speed as it takes 300 wexp to bring from E to C. Normal mode seems ridiculous in how much EXP you get. I would say focus on hard mode. 

Another thing is what is the assumption on a play-through? Is it going to be possible to do the battle maps between chapters? That is a potential 4-8 fights per month once you get prof level high up to double maps done. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I think Hard mode is the easy call if for no other reason than we don't have to create additional conditions mandating how much grinding is allowed for sake of argument. Once Lunatic is added, the hard mode discussion may seem out of date, or perhaps many lists will be vindicated as higher difficulties further separate the bad units from good units in a game like this.

I'm more interested in Monastery protocol. Will the player be expected to use the Tea Time guide in order to ensure perfect tea sessions? Will the player spend those extra hours fishing with all available bait to increase professor exp bit by bit? And although most students are recruitable from opposing houses, how does a student's ranking change between having him at the start and needing to woo him to your side? Is online and amiibo functionality turned off?

[Technoweirdo]

9 hours ago, Vorena said:

I think its time to start creating a metric for such a discussion on a tier list.

Are we going to assume hard mode? Normal mode? New game+ viability? My thought would be no new game+. Remove Statue bonuses. This more greatly exemplifies a units strengths and weaknesses since instructor tutoring on a weakness wlvl means less wexp. A proficient training without instructor expertise is a +6/9/12 boost . Meanwhile a weakness becomes +2/3/4. Over 4 sessions thats 8-16 versus 24-48. Quite the difference in training speed as it takes 300 wexp to bring from E to C. Normal mode seems ridiculous in how much EXP you get. I would say focus on hard mode. 

Another thing is what is the assumption on a play-through? Is it going to be possible to do the battle maps between chapters? That is a potential 4-8 fights per month once you get prof level high up to double maps done. 

Statue bonuses and multiple skirmishes are just to be expected; They'll be built up over the course of normal gameplay.
Paralogues and side-quests can be...tricky to complete otherwise, not due to "Everything is too strong" but "I can't even start them because I ran out of time".
Just think about a character's proficiencies and what they can reasonably expect to achieve.

2 A's and a C in proficiencies. This I feel is more than reasonable. Maybe too conservative perhaps.
By the time my Marianne hit Lv. 30, she was ready for Holy Knight.
Or close to it anyway. Can't recall. Not being able to ride a horse w/o losing magic sucks for gaining Riding exp. Pretty sure though. >_>
Non-mages or mages who'd prefer being on foot? Totally getting 2 A's and a C.
This was very soon after the time-skip. Not finished with the game, but I'd expect S+'s by endgame if I'd stop making everyone train in Authority.

-----

Besides that, there's what characters gain from their proficiencies.
Different characters get different Abilities and Arts even if they train in the same things, and some just get way better things.
Feel that these can be just as important as growths too.
Growths, while important for mid-game all the way to endgame, can end up not working out amazingly (though hopefully not awfully).
Abilities and Arts? You're going to get them no matter what.

For example, Ignatz as a Sniper? Never getting Monster Blast.
Shamir? She's getting Monster Blast. Helps for blasting monsters' armor off w/o Gambits.
You learn to appreciate anti-monster Arts after Marianne's Paralogue. >_>

21 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Vengeance is not really based on the Max HP, but rather on the lost HP, which makes it less reliable and probably very situational. Lance Jab got me thinking again, and that sounds workable if he gets blessed in Speed and screwed in Strength - but that's probably end game skills for him only, since it unlock at A rank in lances, where he starts with none.

Now hold on just a second. Raphael compared to Cyril starts with 4 points of extra strength and 10% strength growth even after you calculate in the personal skill bonus of Cyril. But the better reason I'd run in with Raphael and a gauntlet instead of Cyril with a bow is because Raphael can stand better on the front line with his high HP and Defense. I can imagine more situations where that'd work out, but if we picture a scenario where Cyril only has to worry about a 1-on-1, then yes - he's better with that in the early game.

I can relate to this, I had 100k bank on my first run for a long time. And I used quite a number of Iron and Steel weapons. If you really want to spend that much on Cyril, then you can it by all means, but wouldn't it be better for others?

+4 points in base Str, +10% in Str growth.
He'll likely overcome the gap eventually. It might just take a while, depending on Cyril's class path.
Class growths can help, of course.
Brigand has +5% over Cavalier, +10% over Archer if Cyril goes those paths instead of Brigand, making for a potential +20% difference in total as an example.
Gets really long if he doesn't though. Might go Brigand himself. Definitely won't go Warrior, but Warrior only has +5% over Wyvern Rider.
Edit: Oh yeah, -faires. War Master's innate Fistfaire will help Raphael a lot. Wyvern Lord doesn't have innate Bowfaire but Axefaire.

But you are right that Point-Blank has its risks as Cyril's not the bulkiest unlike Raphael for aggressive play.
Can be forced to swap to Iron or Training to tank which affects kill power, or even forced to play like a standard archer if that's not enough.
But it's absurdly powerful, available super early unlike similar Arts, and its flaws do get patched up over time. It's why it's worth mentioning.

A Bow Knight Bernadetta would just *love* it as an option as she's forced to drop Hunter's Volley if she doesn't stay a Sniper.
All that extra movement, 4-range standard shots, and Canto is lovely and all, but losing that raw killing power for when you really want something dead hurts. ._.
Ignatz doesn't even get to be a Bow Knight without extra effort put into Riding and Lances.
Ignatz doesn't have Bernadetta's personal ability either.
Ignatz...kinda sucks imo. >_>

Re: Couldn't you spend that money elsewhere?
You can't. I tried. <_<
I gave my entire army Silver+ and Steel+. Even the mages who have no business poking enemies with swords.
But in the end? Still too much money.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Technoweirdo

[Garlyle]

15 minutes ago, Technoweirdo said:

Ignatz...kinda sucks imo. >_>

I must object. Ignatz one of my end game units, as a bow knight I might add. When Shamir joined, I thought it's curtains for Ignatz, but he's actually pretty competent. Stat-wise he surely becomes fast, and his early hit bonus helps him for a long time. Once he became a bow knight that doubled everyone at 4 bow range, I couldn't stop using him. I used Break Shot a lot to lower the defenses, and Ward Arrow is great for silencing enemy mages. I like that Bernadetta can shoot farther away, but I don't like that she needs to be damaged to get extra strength.

[Shadow Mir]

50 minutes ago, Technoweirdo said:

But you are right that Point-Blank has its risks as Cyril's not the bulkiest unlike Raphael for aggressive play.

I din't see how Raphael's all that bulky since he's either often at risk of being doubled, or struggling to pick up kills because of gauntlets having suck for might. What in the seven hells does he have to offer that would actually make him viable for the frontlines instead of sending, say, Byleth, Hilda or Leonie there, who tend to not have to deal with either issue???

[Tharne]

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I din't see how Raphael's all that bulky since he's either often at risk of being doubled, or struggling to pick up kills because of gauntlets having suck for might. What in the seven hells does he have to offer that would actually make him viable for the frontlines instead of sending, say, Byleth, Hilda or Leonie there, who tend to not have to deal with either issue???

Getting doubled for 0 dmg x2 isn't really a problem though. And Gauntlets let's you have dead enemies...before they can even counter attack.

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, Tharne said:

Getting doubled for 0 dmg x2 isn't really a problem though. And Gauntlets let's you have dead enemies...before they can even counter attack.

Except he's not shrugging off enemy hits - he's actually taking damage amounts that can be troubling when you're being hit twice by damn near everything. I say again, if he's struggling early on, why in the name of Anankos should I continue to invest in him???

[Technoweirdo]

20 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I din't see how Raphael's all that bulky since he's either often at risk of being doubled, or struggling to pick up kills because of gauntlets having suck for might. What in the seven hells does he have to offer that would actually make him viable for the frontlines instead of sending, say, Byleth, Hilda or Leonie there, who tend to not have to deal with either issue???

Str growths, proficiency in axes and fists, not being female for classes with Fistfaire.
These all help him score kills. Brigand's Death Blow in particular is a big boost early on for damage.
Enemies swapping to Steel also helps him a lot until the swap to Silver.

As for tanking, well, he's the second-bulkiest in the game.
He's also the slowest, but you'll appreciate the bulk once you start meeting Assassins.
You do not out-speed Assassins; they out-speed *you*. And they usually pack Silver.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Technoweirdo

[daisy jane]

re: Cyril. 
i basically did not touch him before the time skip because i didn't think he was good and i didn't know what I wanted him to be. so i basically just had him learn whatever his original growths were. post time skip, he became really good, as a Wyvern Rider/Master (or whatever the darned class was). and due to aptitude he became quite balanced for me. he (and Flayn) were worth the tiny investment of time i gave them when i realised how good they were ( with Flayn i just noticed her speed was never getting better, so i made her a Gremory but basically she became an Adjunct for most of the game .

re: Raphael. yah he is slow. but when i made him a war master, he was quadding) - and he triggered crits a lot. he was very dependable for me near the end. 

but the best unit in my eyes?
Ingrid. she was my third last recruit , and however she was trained by the NPCs was horrible, but I got her riding and authority up to snuff, and then she became hands down my most used unit in the game other than Lysisthia (given) and Marianne. in the final battle, i literally warped her in the middle of all this danger including bows and magic and other crap, and the most damage she took was 5. period. I'm doing a BL run now, and while her atk is low, she's already showing what i know. she is going to be utterly amazing for me. (the only thing i have to decide is if i am going to make her a falcon knight again or make her a wyvern master/lord whatever).  

[Shadow Mir]

5 minutes ago, Technoweirdo said:

Str growths, proficiency in axes and fists, not being female for classes with Fistfaire.
These all help him score kills. Brigand's Death Blow in particular is a big boost early on for damage.

As for tanking, well, he's the second-bulkiest in the game.
He's also the slowest, but you'll appreciate the bulk once you start meeting Assassins.
You do not out-speed Assassins; they out-speed *you*. And they usually pack Silver.

Did you not read what trouble his proficiency in axes and brawling causes for him? Either he has to risk whiffing and eating a double attack, which sucks, or he hits like a wet noodle, which also sucks.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Shadow Mir