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You are assuming that there will always be an enemy whitin exactly the movement limit of the units  wich iirc is not really a thing. Even in efficient play not all units will move at full speed every turn. Sometimes you move 2 squares because the enemy is just 2 squares away and this game is more player phase focussed than ever. On the other hand, a mage can reasonably move 4 squares every turn while always having something to kill as long as they have long range options, be it thoron of a staff. Wich is also true for archers, but they are less guaranteed to orko. And this is ignoing the dancer promotion, that is actually a great option for mages.

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6 hours ago, Vitezen said:

If that's true, then she does get lightning axe instead at C+. Either way, the core idea is that she has the power to use "magic attacks" despite not having good spells and without needing to rely solely on crusher. Heck, lightning axe scales based off of resistance, not magic, so she doesn't even need to be a strong mage for it.

At least Frozen Lance fits into the Master Knight promotion paths; training in axes spreads her even thinner. So you are either investing even more for this build or waiting even longer for a payoff. Neither of which feels justifiable for a “utility” build. 

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36 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

You are assuming that there will always be an enemy whitin exactly the movement limit of the units  wich iirc is not really a thing. Even in efficient play not all units will move at full speed every turn. Sometimes you move 2 squares because the enemy is just 2 squares away and this game is more player phase focussed than ever.

Its incredibly rare to move "only two spaces" past the early game if you plan properly. Especially once you cross level 10 and start getting units with canto. Low move units definitely fall behind if you're playing at a relatively quick pace. It's not a bad thing if you play slower, and there is nothing wrong with that, but magic users without physic tend to start struggling in the period between level 10 and 30 as everybody else gets increasingly more movement and they're still stuck with 4 move.

It's actually also a problem that archers have slightly as well. The class itself is quite good, but assuming you're mostly going for other top tier classes on your other units, they're going to start falling behind a little as well due to most of your other units being mounted. But even then, archers have +1 move over mages, so they're still better in the mobility department.

 

38 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

 Wich is also true for archers, but they are less guaranteed to orko. And this is ignoing the dancer promotion, that is actually a great option for mages.

"This unit can be a good dancer" is not a strong statement of viability...

Literally every (student) unit can reclass into a dancer, and they will function almost exactly the same assuming you're using them optimally. The highest utility thing you can generally be doing on a dancer is dancing for something, and that's something that requires zero weapon ranks or stat benchmarks.

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3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

You are assuming that there will always be an enemy whitin exactly the movement limit of the units  wich iirc is not really a thing. Even in efficient play not all units will move at full speed every turn. Sometimes you move 2 squares because the enemy is just 2 squares away and this game is more player phase focussed than ever. On the other hand, a mage can reasonably move 4 squares every turn while always having something to kill as long as they have long range options, be it thoron of a staff. Wich is also true for archers, but they are less guaranteed to orko. And this is ignoing the dancer promotion, that is actually a great option for mages.

This is why canto / stride is so OP - kill everything close player phase, then canto forward to kill more enemy phase

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I have finished my Blue Lions playthrough on hard/classic and just posting my thoughts here.

Petra (Brigand -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord): strongest unit in my team. One-rounded practically every enemy in the game thanks to her monstrous strength and speed. Her defense is subpar and her resistance is simply bad. However, her high speed meant that she would often dodge attacks anyway.

Dimitri (Soldier -> Cavalier -> Paladin): incredibly reliable. I could send him into any group of physical units right until endgame without having to worry about him dying. Very tanky and hit like a truck. His speed was bad, so he never doubled and often got doubled, but even then he was damaged little. Kept him as a paladin through the entire game for the 8 movement. Just keep him away from mages. His bulk saved me many times.

Byleth (Myrmidon -> Mercenary -> Swordmaster -> Enlightened One): Good throughout. Hit like a truck, doubled everything and was reasonably tanky. Very consistent throughout the game.

Lysithea (Mage -> Warlock -> Gremory): Incredibly strong, incredibly fast, can't take a hit. Your typical glass cannon. Would have been higher if she had some more movement. Going Gremory seemed like a good idea initially because 4x Luna and 2x Warp, but 5 movement meant she was well behind my other units too often. In my next playthrough I will make her a Dark Knight instead.

Felix (Myrmidon -> Thief -> Assassin -> Bow Knight): As the game went on, he slowly switched from maining swords to maining bows. He was a bit of a glass cannon, but as a bow knight, he hardly had to take a hit anyway. Was my strongest unit in the earlygame and remained in the top 5 the entire game!

Mercedes (Monk -> Priest -> Bishop -> Holy Knight): In the first half she was a good physical unit as well as a good healer. Stopped doubling in the second half so she mostly healed from that point on. Physic + Fortify saved me many times and as holy knight 8 move + canto means she can easily be kept out of harms way.

Flayn (Dancer): Perhaps not entirely fair to rate flayn based on the dancer class. She was not as useful as I would have liked. Her low movement and her frailness meant she could not dance optimally in the last few chapters, with all the long range threats (especially in the final chapter she was mostly reduced to remaining in the starting position).

Seteth (Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord): Gave him a speed ring to get him to double and that got him over the line. For the remainder of the game he was a very strong, reliable unit. Would have been higher if he came earlier.

Ingrid (Soldier -> Pegasus Knight -> Falcon Knight): Typical Pegasus Knight: fast and with high resistance, but low strength. Towards the end of the game she was my primary magekiller, which proved very useful considering my other 2 fliers struggled with mages, but managed to accomplish little beside that.

Sylvain (Fighter -> Cavalier -> Paladin -> Great Knight): I tried really hard to make Sylvain work. He was never bad, but he was never great either. His speed was relatively low throughout the game, to the point where he was getting doubled, so I decided to make him a great knight in hopes of him being a good tank. He was a decent tank but nowhere near as reliable as Dimitri. I consider Sylvain a jack of all trades, master of none. Perhaps he got RNG screwed in my playthrough though, as I see many rankings ranking him more favorably.

Dedue (Fighter -> Brigand -> Fortress Knight): Was good in the first half, and was my main tank before Dimitri surpassed him. When he returned after the timeskip, I found no use for him anymore.

Annette (Monk -> Mage -> Warlock): Useful in the earlygame. After Lysithea was recruited, I started using Annette less as I had little use for multiple mages on the battlefield and Lysithea (and to a lesser extent Mercedes) had surpassed Annette.

Ashe (Fighter -> Archer): Benched him relatively quickly, which I regret in retrospect. I did not realize bows were good in this game and I was not impressed enough with Ashe to train other weapon ranks. In a future playthrough I would like to see how he fares as a bow knight.

I did not really use the teachers beside Seteth so I do not feel qualified to rate them.

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29 minutes ago, Quirino said:

Sylvain (Fighter -> Cavalier -> Paladin -> Great Knight): I tried really hard to make Sylvain work. He was never bad, but he was never great either. His speed was relatively low throughout the game, to the point where he was getting doubled, so I decided to make him a great knight in hopes of him being a good tank. He was a decent tank but nowhere near as reliable as Dimitri. I consider Sylvain a jack of all trades, master of none. Perhaps he got RNG screwed in my playthrough though, as I see many rankings ranking him more favorably.

A quick note, a fair amount of the praise for Sylvain is his relatively easy path to Wyvern Lord (which I'm sure you have learned by now is one of the best classes in the game) combined with fairly good personal growths in Str, Spd, and Def. Even if you get somewhat speed screwed, the Wyvern Rider and Wyvern Lord promotions fix that problem. For some reason those two classes are among the fastest in the game, and their promotion bonuses will bump him up to acceptable speed at the very minimum. (The minimum speed for a Wyvern Lord is 24, so even if your Sylvain gained zero speed level ups for his first thirty levels, he will have 24 speed or more as a Wyvern Lord.)

If you follow the path to Great Knight instead he'll likely be somewhat behind on speed, which I could definitely see greatly cutting into his usefulness.

Edited by Silly
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1 minute ago, Silly said:

A quick note, a fair amount of the praise for Sylvain is his relatively easy path to Wyvern Lord (which I'm sure you have learned by now is one of the best classes in the game) combined with fairly good personal growths in Str, Spd, and Def. Even if you get somewhat speed screwed, the Wyvern Rider and Wyvern Lord promotions fix that problem, because for some reason those two classes are among the fastest in the game, and their promotion bonuses will bump him up to acceptable speed at the very minimum.

If you follow the path to Great Knight instead he'll likely be somewhat behind on speed, which I could definitely see greatly cutting into his usefulness.

That makes a lot of sense. In a next playthrough I will try to make him a wyvern lord and see how he fares. Thanks for pointing it out! Wyvern Lord and Bow Knight are the most broken classes in this game imo.

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7 minutes ago, Quirino said:

That makes a lot of sense. In a next playthrough I will try to make him a wyvern lord and see how he fares. Thanks for pointing it out! Wyvern Lord and Bow Knight are the most broken classes in this game imo.

Wyvern Lord and Bow Knight being broken is a very non-controversial opinion 😛

Generally the two best paths to follow to become one should be:

  • Fighter -> Brigand (make sure to master this class) -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord

You can train axes/flying for most of the game, and pick up some lance rank along the way for the Wyvern Lord promotion.

  • Soldier -> Pegasus Knight (make sure to master this class) -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord

This path only applies to females, but its also very good, and gives you the upside of getting access to a flier early. You train lances/flying early, and make sure to switch to axes/flying after you hit C lances or you pass the Pegasus Knight exam (whichever comes first). The lance training you did in the beginning isn't really wasted because Wyvern Lord has a C lance requirement as well.

For the Bow Knight path:

  • Fighter -> Archer (make sure you master this class) -> Sniper -> Bow Knight

The above path is probably by far the most common, primarily training bow/riding, with some lances thrown in along the way somewhere for the Bow Knight promotion.

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58 minutes ago, Silly said:

For the Bow Knight path:

  • Fighter -> Archer (make sure you master this class) -> Sniper -> Bow Knight

The above path is probably by far the most common, primarily training bow/riding, with some lances thrown in along the way somewhere for the Bow Knight promotion.

Speaking of this, for Ignatz since he already has Hit+20 it could be a good thing for him to go Fighter -> Brigand (for that sweet Death Blow + Strength growth) -> Sniper -> Bow Knight. It is a good way to salvage is sub-par Str it seems (since his Dex/Spd/Lck are already pretty good in term of growth.)

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18 minutes ago, Tharne said:

Speaking of this, for Ignatz since he already has Hit+20 it could be a good thing for him to go Fighter -> Brigand (for that sweet Death Blow + Strength growth) -> Sniper -> Bow Knight. It is a good way to salvage is sub-par Str it seems (since his Dex/Spd/Lck are already pretty good in term of growth.)

Ignatz's best class progression is Commoner -> Bench 😉

But yeah, if you don't mind going out of your way in terms of weapon ranks, picking up Brigand/Pegasus Knight/Archer mastery on pretty much any physical unit is worth it.

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Only finished BL and on Ch17 of GD. Only used Shamir, Petra, and the students of my houses. Both on Hard/Classic:

Petra (Came to me as a Thief --> Mercenary --> Assassin --> Wyvern Lord): Good in the early game, great later on. Dex and spd was always high so despite her frailness she dodged a lot of attacks. Maybe I got screwed early on but her str was kinda low so even if she doubled sometimes it wouldn't be enough. Becoming a Wyvern Lord fixed her str so she went from good to great. 

Dorothea (Came to me as a mage --> Dancer): I think I just didn't make the best use of her, but she was only okay. Intended to make her a Gremory but she couldn't keep up with Annette and Mercedes so I eventually made her a dancer. Didn't get to take advantage of meteor because she spent more of her time dancing/healing.

Byleth (Fighter --> Mercenary --> Mage --> Warlock --> Enlightened One): I think I tried to do too much with Byleth but despite all this she still consistently did well. I didn't know Enlightened One allowed her to use magic as well so I intended to make her a Mortal Savant. I wanted vantage from mercenary and then backtracked to mage because I didn't have enough reason to go straight into Warlock. Got to Warlock really late because I tried to raise my dex/riding for Petra and str/lance for Leonie while I was a sword-wielding mercenary (I realized too late that it was better to just bribe them with gifts instead). It was okay though since I picked up Fiendish Blow which patched up my low magic. Consistent all throughout, probably would be much better if I didn't mess with her so much and spread myself too thin.  

Dimitri (Fighter --> Cavalier --> Paladin --> Armored Lord --> Great Lord): He was good early on and then turned into a beast after time-skip. Hits like a freaking truck and it doesn't even bother me that his unique is unmounted since I had him charge straight ahead anyway. Picking up Aegis from Paladin really helped. Super high str, good enough spd to not get doubled, and good defenses. 

Dedue (Fighter --> Armored Knight --> Fortress Knight --> Great Knight): I used him to lure enemies into my team's attack range but he never hits hard enough when he counterattacked. Definitely tanky and enough HP to comfortably take a magic hit. Mostly used him because he was a good guy, but he was okay.

Sylvain (Fighter --> Cavalier --> Paladin --> Dark Knight): Very good all-rounder. He's supposed to be jack-of-all-trades but master of none but he ended up more like master of everything in my BL run. He's slightly weaker in GD so far so I'll write off the BL one as good rng. Still really good. Spd is high enough to double enemies quite often. Decent spell list. Good mobility and having both magic and his Lance of Ruin made him super versatile. Decent defenses to take care of himself. 

Felix (Myrmidon --> Bench): Didn't use him because I couldn't stand his character. Rude to literally everyone (even Mercedes wtf). Only used him at first because I thought I only had my own house's units to pick from + maybe 2-3 recruits. Quickly found out that wasn't the case and benched his annoying ass immediately. Was pretty freaking strong early game though; he gets perma +5 dmg if no batallion.

Ingrid (Fighter --> Pegasus Knight --> Cavalier --> Falcon Knight): Ingrid took me by major surprise. She was the real mvp after the timeskip. Her str was kinda bad early on so she was just really meh to me and I had to feed her kills. Kept her because she was my only flier. She had good spd but she couldn't kill anything without help and her defenses weren't good enough for me to safely send her beyond my team's reach. Then she raked up some levels and overnight she was constantly landing crits on everyone and dodged pretty much everything (by the last few chapters enemy hit rate peaked at 45%). Always doubled enemies. I think Paladin fixed her str for me. Took a bit of work but she was a solo player by the end of the game. 

Annette (Monk --> Mage --> Warlock --> Gremory): I knew Lysithea was the better mage but I didn't recruit her in time for my BL run so I stuck with Annette. She got the job done but Sylvain eventually beat her once she gained a few levels as a Dark Knight. Her crit rate was pretty good but she doesn't have access to Seraphim and her spell list is much less impressive compared to Lysithea's. Didn't recruit Lorenz for his paralogue, so Annette had low mobility and low range. She was okay.

Mercedes (Monk --> Mage --> Bishop --> Gremory): Good unit. Has Live to Serve as her unique so she heals herself whenever she heals an ally. Not that I threw her out into the enemies, but constantly being near full HP + Nosferatu equipped meant I could position her within one enemy's range and still be okay with it. Never made her into a Holy Knight because I didn't want to lose the 2x white magic use, and physic has an insane range anyway. Fortify came in handy near the end when the game tries to overwhelm you with sheer numbers and you need to heal everyone. She was my early res tank when Ingrid couldn't do it yet. Good unit.

Ashe (Archer --> Bench): I tried to use Ashe since he was a good kid but he really wasn't keeping up with anyone on the team. Base str wasn't good so if he didn't crit, it wasn't going to be worthwhile. 

Shamir (Sniper --> Bow Knight): Needed an archer on my BL run since I benched Ashe. Shamir filled the spot really nicely. High crit and good range. Kills enemies without being touched at all. Great unit. 

Claude (Archer --> Sniper --> Wyvern Master --> Barbarossa): Really strong, goodness. Crits all the time. Comes to you as a flier after time-skip and slays everything with an Iron Bow+. Nothing else needs to be said.

Hilda (Fighter --> Brigand --> Warrior --> Wyvern Lord): Hits really hard. Speed was meh but she doesn't need to double to OHKO the enemy anyway. Good defense and avoids a fair share of attacks. Only needs an iron axe+ to get the job done, and maybe I've been lucky with stats but I have no accuracy issues unlike what I've heard about Edelgard. Great unit.

Lorenz (Bench): His personality + pre-timeskip hair. Only good for his paralogue. Bench.

Raphael (Fighter --> Brigand --> Grappler --> War Master): The biggest cinnamon roll of Three Houses. Use him. Good unit. Hits tons of enemies 4x and has good crit. Beefy enough to serve as my tank in GD alongside Hilda. He can go through a monster's full HP bar even without the barrier broken. 

Lysithea (Monk --> Mage --> Warlock --> Gremory --> trying to get her to Dark Knight): Everyone has already said it but she's great. Just make sure she's out of harm's way which isn't that difficult considering her 5-range with relic. Even if the relic comes with pavise/aegis, don't count on it. She's paper thin. Might try to pick up desparation/vantage while I play BE so she fares better in Lunatic but she's really good regardless. Use her.

Ignatz (Monk --> Archer --> Dancer): I was going to bench him but he was a good kid so I tried to make him work. Raised his faith and made him a dancer. Even though his magic is kinda crummy at least he has access to physic. Wanted to use a different cast in each route to maintain their uniqueness so I limited myself to just one repeat character (Sylvain) and didn't replace Ignatz with Mercedes, Dorothea, or even Flayn. Wouldn't recommend him.

Marianne (Monk --> Mage --> Bishop --> Gremory): I miss having Mercedes's Live to Serve/Fortify, but Marianne's a good unit as well. Most of my GD units aren't good with magic so her having silence to keep a mage down helps. Has access to Thoron. Good as a healer and a secondary mage. 

Leonie (BL: came to me as a Cavalier --> Wyvern Rider --> Wyvern Lord) and (GD: Cavalier --> Sniper --> Bow Knight): Good unit in both paths. Good crit and str. High def is nice for Wyvern Lord but as a bow knight it doesn't really matter. She can attack from a 4-range and then move to safety afterwards. 

Edited by CarmineCoffee
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imo if it's a female there's no real reason to go Brigand into Wyvern, Pegasus is just straight up a better class, both for gameplay and for growths. Darting Blow as well is more useful than Death Blow, as a Wyvern Lord you can start doubling even Assassins. You even get your Lance ready and also start rising your flight early on, otherwise jumping to A in 10 levels is not easy.

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Death Blow has some synergy with Brave weapons that Darting Blow lacks, but both do rule and I agree that the benefits of flight for 10 extra levels are pretty great.

I'm a bit less impressed by horses in this game but this is coming off of the BE route where the last two maps spam difficult terrain at them, plus the lower stats (mostly speed) generally. They're still very good obviously (Canto is amazing), just feel a bit more balanced than I feared at first when I saw how much more mobile they were than infantry + Canto being back.

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10 minutes ago, CarmineCoffee said:

Raphael (Fighter --> Brigand --> Grappler --> War Master): The biggest cinnamon roll of Three Houses. Use him. Good unit. Hits tons of enemies 4x and has good crit. Beefy enough to serve as my tank in GD alongside Hilda. He can go through a monster's full HP bar even without the barrier broken. 

 

>Raphael
>Good unit
Pick one. Because I fail to see it with him having all the glaring weaknesses he has.

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Finished a BL campaign and learned a lot.

GOD TIER

Lysithea: Nuclear bomb. Early Luna and Dark Spikes T. Glass cannon stats just make her all the stronger rather than a slow high magic unit, she is both strong and fast. Fantastic crest abilities, her sword proficiency, and ability to use Thunderbrand gives even more flexibility. Throw on warp from white magic and now the turn count has been cut in half. Can be used on all routes so she's even better. 10/10, couldn't ask for a better magic unit.

Dimitri: Intends to kill all his enemies and means it. Sky-high attack, good speed, and all around bulk allows him to solo maps. His 1.2 exp multiplier just guarantees he'll always be over-leveled.

HIGH TIER

Byleth: They're okay. They have the Eliwood issue of being so balanced they struggle to really become as godly as more specialized units. Fantastic versatility and can power level ranks with faculty training but if you were looking to have some sort of godly MU, you're not going to get one.

Felix: Fantastic sword unit. Even with low magic growth, becoming a Mortal Savant allows him to be speedy mage with a high-crit rate. This lets him actually compensate for his low magic and Thoron allows him to outrange other mages. If you don't want him to use magic, you don't need him to. He has amazing bases and growths in speed and strength. A little fragile so he can't solo maps but he'll kill anything you need him to.

Seteth: Perfect unit out of the box. Don't even think about it. Plop him on any team and he'll do his job. A bit late, but is an easy filler for any team.

Catherine: Good out of the box. Comes with a great weapon. Great growths for a swordmaster. Another good filler.

Shamir: Not too fast. Decent filler and comes almost equipped to be a bow knight. One speedwing or two and she becomes a godly unit.

Mercedes: Did you say EXTRA FORTIFIES? Yeah, obviously great as a healer. Kinda falls off later in the game but she is invaluable to any team and can bait mages if need be. Magic bows are gimmicky but whatever. She doesn't need them.

MID TIER

Annette: High magic/low speed. She's unfortunately outclassed by Lysithea and falls off due to lower magic growths. High dex growth does not help.

Dedue: Fantastic tanking stats, horribly inflexible. He's not doing magic. He's not doing mounted. He can make a great War Master but if you screw up and make him a Fortress Knight, enjoy your deadweight tank. Can't fix it by becoming a Great Knight either. He's not going to get to C in riding by endgame.

Raphael: What do you mean 50% strength growth? 15% speed growth? Highest growth is just dumb health with 65%? He can make a passable wyvern rider but he's never going to be that good. Slightly better than Dedue by virtue of actually being able to ride a wyvern.

Hanneman: Low end of mid-tier but perfectly okay. His bow skill is kinda gimmicky but he is at least a magic nuke with Thoron. If you're going to have a magic heavy squad, bump him to high tier.

BAD

Ingrid/Ignatz: Same issue. Fast but horribly weak. Both can easily become dead weight and fast. Both think sub 40% growth in magic is enough to make up for it. They're both wrong.

Manuela: Solely good as an anti-mage but if you have Marianne, you have a better Manuela. Don't use her.

 

I have used others but I can't properly rate them. I got Bernie too late and made her a dancer so she never saw combat.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skell_
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I hear ideas of trying to give people -3 weight skill from C rank armor for a lot of people but it's a mildly high investment to do it early when it matters the most. Late game your units won't need the -3 weight as they can attack with no impairments with high enough strength on their upgraded irons. Which is mostly what you need barring the short axe/short spear. Someone like Ingrid with her high speed and low strength can double with short spears especially if you have darting blow. That investment can go into authority which has better short and long term benefits even for people with weaknesses in it. If you go with swordmaster Felix might as well level up authority. Much harder if you try for bow knight or war master. 

Another thing to define is efficient playthroughs. Rare battles give a shit ton of EXP but take up a couple turns. Doing these every time in part 1 is a great boon for your units but turn count goes up even though it won't be tracked by the game. I do those quite a bit so levels do seem a bit inflated and breeze through later levels. Same with paralouges but some are so laughably short such as Lorenz's paralouge which is a 1 turn with great rewards. While others like Ingrid/Dorathea paralouge is decently long for good rewards ( as long as you have Ingrid).

As for the characters themselves, I think Seteth is actually one of the best characters in the game. Great bases though admittedly mediocre speed but he's on the edge of doubling a lot of enemies post time skip. Speed ring will help him for a bit. Speedwings are hard to come by in part 1 but not sure which plant grows speed carrots/rocky burdocks. If we figure that out gardening would be extremely beneficial.  

 

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31 minutes ago, Skell_ said:

 

Ingrid/Ignatz: Same issue. Fast but horribly weak. Both can easily become dead weight and fast. Both think sub 40% growth in magic is enough to make up for it. They're both wrong.

I can't speak about Ignatz cause I've relegated him to secondary roles like sniping fliers and opening chest rather than general combat (I made him an Assassin), but I think you undersell Ingrid. For reference, I made her a Falcon Knight.

She ended up being pretty weak physically (to the point where her magic was actually 5 points higher than her strength). This wasn't too bad in the early game, with skills like Tempest Lance, but was a pain to deal with in the early post-timeskip chapters, where she is pretty weak. However, once you get the Levin sword, she becomes a total powerhouse. Out of all my units,, she's the only one who's able to consistently double most classes barring swordmasters and assassins (and even then, she's the only one aside from Ignatz, funnily enough, able to avoid doubles from these classes). Her damage output is normally poor, but Levin Sword lets her usually deal 30 to 40 damage on most general enemies- not enough to kill, but MASSIVE chip damage. Combined with Levin Sword's 2-range and canto, she's fantastic at hit and run strategies, especially on maps with more terrrain or walls. She only gets stronger once Frozen Lance and Hexblade are unlocked. You can't double with these, but they are more reliable than Levin Sword and are useful for finishing off foes.

I don't want to oversell Ingrid cause her early-game performance is honestly lackluster, Levin Sword has low durability and has shaky accuracy, and she needs to use combat arts to not hit like a wet noodle against late game foes (unless they are mages, in which case her mixed offensive capabilities are fairly respectable). Still, I'd rank about as useful as Annette, who's fantastic at dealing chip damage, but straight up gets one-rounded by most late-game foes due to middling speed.

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2 hours ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

I hear ideas of trying to give people -3 weight skill from C rank armor for a lot of people but it's a mildly high investment to do it early when it matters the most. Late game your units won't need the -3 weight as they can attack with no impairments with high enough strength on their upgraded irons. Which is mostly what you need barring the short axe/short spear. Someone like Ingrid with her high speed and low strength can double with short spears especially if you have darting blow. That investment can go into authority which has better short and long term benefits even for people with weaknesses in it. If you go with swordmaster Felix might as well level up authority. Much harder if you try for bow knight or war master. 

Weight -3 is a great skill even later on. With the skill equipped, most level 30+ units can use silver weapons with no AS penalty (or maybe 1-2 points of penalty at most), which gives you a big damage boost over iron. And you take less AS penalties for using stronger weapons like Killer and Brave. And at that point it's really not too big of an issue to dip into a few levels of armor to grab the ability, since often times units won't want to train their primary weapon rank past A+ (S+ is too hard to reach, so it isn't worth it, and it's instead better to put points towards skills that are easier to obtain).

Obviously don't train armor at the expense of something you need to actually hit your next reclass. But don't train authority either in that case. Your reclass benchmarks should always be your top priority, since the benefit you get from reclassing into one of the better classes is more significant than you will get from either authority or armor training.

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I disagree with Wt -3 being bad late-game.  If you can use upgraded irons before the skill without penalty, you can now use upgraded silvers without penalty.  That's basically another +6 Mt on a skill, except unlike Death Blow it also works on enemy phase.  Plus, for axe units, getting Armor C lets them cert into Fortress Knight at a 43% chance.  You don't want the actual class, but a free "bump DEF up to 17" is never unwelcome.

For Ingrid, I feel that going Wyvern Rider at 20-30 benefits her too much to ignore.  She should have the flying ranks for it, so she only really needs a C in axes for a 43% chance to cert into the class.  The class gives her an effective +4 permanent STR assuming she's not already strength blessed due to minimum stats.  Going Wyvern Rider also gives her an effective +11 to her attack power for level 20-29 (+3 from min stats, +3 from class changing, +5 from axefaire), which lets her kill much easier at this level range.  Plus, leveling axes a bit lets you class into Brigand early on to learn Death Blow.  It's a lot of skills, sure, but Death Blow helps with her strength problems a ton.

Obviously don't do it for LTC or challenges, but it's very helpful for normal play.  I actually find it hard to stomach Ingrid's low damage without it.

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5 hours ago, Skell_ said:

Raphael: What do you mean 50% strength growth? 15% speed growth? Highest growth is just dumb health with 65%? He can make a passable wyvern rider but he's never going to be that good. Slightly better than Dedue by virtue of actually being able to ride a wyvern.

Funny thing is, I saw a comment earlier in this thread calling Raphael a worse Dedue.

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I don't know about making a Tier list, but I want to add to some characters because I think they have been sold short for now. At first if Lunatic or any new difficulty arises we can talk again about Dodgetanks working. But for now I used Dodgetanking in the game pretty successfully. And I find it very reliable if done right. It even did go as far as me sending of Falchon Knights alone in the Endgame which enemies couldn't hit. 17% was the most hitrate I saw at that moment, with ignored Tiles. I didn't even optimize there and had around 130-140 Avo at that point.

I actually think that Sylvain is made bit short of. He can work really well as a Mage. While having not a huge Magic growth he is actually able to be a Dodgetank Mage. With Black Magic Avo +20 a good gambit he is likely to doge many attacks. Being able to be a Dark Bishop gives him 2 times Fiendish blow which can make up a bit for his lack in Magic growth and he is bulky enough to take some hits. 

Manuela, my only true regret with her is not being able to learn Sword Avo +20. Because while she starts of as a Healer I think she might be better in physical classes. Warrior would grant her 45% amount of strength growthrate to her good speed growth which is at 60. I also think Wyvernlord would give her the best growth rate after Warrior or Swordsmaster (Not being able to be a Grappler hurts her a bit). Downsides are that she is competing with Leonie who has kind of better growth rates in the core stats and is available earlier in the game. If one really is a fan of Manuela its reasonable thought to think about her going the physical path with some investment.

Any classes with Sword might be an easier Setup for her then later transitioning into a Flyer class. Of course she is only an option if you prefer using her over Ingrid or Leonie. Because both of these are available earlier. 

Marianne is an interesting one. I think she is a really interesting Magical Swordfighter. Her Speed growth is quite ok, so being a Swordfighter or Assassin for a while will help her in this one, there are some important things she needs in these classes though. She has access to Frost Lance and Soul Blade quite early in the game and she needs those skills to work until she get her hands on Levin Sword. She is also a candidate for the Dancing Tournament so she can get Sword Avo +20. Overall the good part about her is that Magic classes tend to have a better hit rate. She can block these and dodge other units easily. A candidate for being an Endgame Falcon Knight. 

Ferdinand.. oh boy another one who might like to dance. Yeah, not being able to be a Pegasus Rider/ Falcon Knight hurts him. He still can be a viable Dodegtank with his Personal skill. He also has a good Speed growth and with Wyvern classes he can easily get Alert Stance with some time. Which could make him probably one of the best Dodgetanks in the Game. And while I think for now that Dodgetanks are really good in the game, this might change with any new difficulty if they care more about the hit rate of enemies. I think he might be a choice when the time comes. Additionally he can start of quite early and may be the only unit to Dodgetank the Death Knight "reliably" on Chapter 4 without any New Game+ cheese. 

Mostly my Ideas have been about Dodgetanks. This is out of my good Endgame experience with them. I even Dodgetanked the Death Knight in Chapter 4 with Byleth on my first run. (Thanks to the Tiles), I confess the hitrate from the Death Knight was around 40% with the Tiles and there are better options you just have to know, I was pretty ignorant about Gambit at this point. While this early in the game Dodgetank my not be an option Later on it becomes more viable. And Falcon Knights profit from the fact that the hitrate from Archers decreases with Distance. 

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10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Funny thing is, I saw a comment earlier in this thread calling Raphael a worse Dedue.

Stat-wise Dedue it's probably better; but having a weakness in Flying it's yikes, specially if you don't have NG+ bonuses.

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8 minutes ago, Stroud said:

I don't know about making a Tier list, but I want to add to some characters because I think they have been sold short for now. At first if Lunatic or any new difficulty arises we can talk again about Dodgetanks working. But for now I used Dodgetanking in the game pretty successfully. And I find it very reliable if done right. It even did go as far as me sending of Falchon Knights alone in the Endgame which enemies couldn't hit. 17% was the most hitrate I saw at that moment, with ignored Tiles. I didn't even optimize there and had around 130-140 Avo at that point.

I actually think that Sylvain is made bit short of. He can work really well as a Mage. While having not a huge Magic growth he is actually able to be a Dodgetank Mage. With Black Magic Avo +20 a good gambit he is likely to doge many attacks. Being able to be a Dark Bishop gives him 2 times Fiendish blow which can make up a bit for his lack in Magic growth and he is bulky enough to take some hits. 

Manuela, my only true regret with her is not being able to learn Sword Avo +20. Because while she starts of as a Healer I think she might be better in physical classes. Warrior would grant her 45% amount of strength growthrate to her good speed growth which is at 60. I also think Wyvernlord would give her the best growth rate after Warrior or Swordsmaster (Not being able to be a Grappler hurts her a bit). Downsides are that she is competing with Leonie who has kind of better growth rates in the core stats and is available earlier in the game. If one really is a fan of Manuela its reasonable thought to think about her going the physical path with some investment.

Any classes with Sword might be an easier Setup for her then later transitioning into a Flyer class. Of course she is only an option if you prefer using her over Ingrid or Leonie. Because both of these are available earlier. 

Marianne is an interesting one. I think she is a really interesting Magical Swordfighter. Her Speed growth is quite ok, so being a Swordfighter or Assassin for a while will help her in this one, there are some important things she needs in these classes though. She has access to Frost Lance and Soul Blade quite early in the game and she needs those skills to work until she get her hands on Levin Sword. She is also a candidate for the Dancing Tournament so she can get Sword Avo +20. Overall the good part about her is that Magic classes tend to have a better hit rate. She can block these and dodge other units easily. A candidate for being an Endgame Falcon Knight. 

Ferdinand.. oh boy another one who might like to dance. Yeah, not being able to be a Pegasus Rider/ Falcon Knight hurts him. He still can be a viable Dodegtank with his Personal skill. He also has a good Speed growth and with Wyvern classes he can easily get Alert Stance with some time. Which could make him probably one of the best Dodgetanks in the Game. And while I think for now that Dodgetanks are really good in the game, this might change with any new difficulty if they care more about the hit rate of enemies. I think he might be a choice when the time comes. Additionally he can start of quite early and may be the only unit to Dodgetank the Death Knight "reliably" on Chapter 4 without any New Game+ cheese. 

Mostly my Ideas have been about Dodgetanks. This is out of my good Endgame experience with them. I even Dodgetanked the Death Knight in Chapter 4 with Byleth on my first run. (Thanks to the Tiles), I confess the hitrate from the Death Knight was around 40% with the Tiles and there are better options you just have to know, I was pretty ignorant about Gambit at this point. While this early in the game Dodgetank my not be an option Later on it becomes more viable. And Falcon Knights profit from the fact that the hitrate from Archers decreases with Distance. 

I have my doubts, if I may be honest -  I don't see this game as dodgetank friendly, particularly compared to the GBA games.

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Just now, Shadow Mir said:

I have my doubts, if I may be honest -  I don't see this game as dodgetank friendly, particularly compared to the GBA games.

I read this statement often and I can only object to this. Clearly you did not really try dodgetanking. Its damn reliable in this game. Really try it to the utmost before you doubt it.

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Just now, Stroud said:

I read this statement often and I can only object to this. Clearly you did not really try dodgetanking. Its damn reliable in this game. Really try it to the utmost before you doubt it.

Even though it requires more setup than is reasonable? Get real.

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