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Fire Emblem Three Houses Unit Tier Lists


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On 9/12/2019 at 3:11 PM, LegendOfLoog said:

Here's my general impressions of the Blue Lions right now. I just passed Chapter 8 on Maddening, so I think I have a decent grasp on the general difficulty of the early game. 

  • Dimitri: He has an ok start, but like the other lance users, he has a very low AS of 3 in the early game. Thankfully, his growths patch up his AS fairly quickly, and with a Training Lance, he should have around 6-7 AS at Level 5 on average. Even more importantly, his XP boost is essential to getting him those levels because of the severe XP penalty on Maddening. He also deals by far the most damage with Tempest Lance out of the three. It may be worth giving him a sword just so he stops being doubled earlier, but he's bulky enough where he really only has difficulties with enemy mages. His combination of Battalion Wrath+Vantage seems like it's going to be necessary for the late game, so if any character on this list deserves stat boosters, it's him. 
  • Dedue: He should jump up in the tier list for his early game performance alone on this difficulty. Pretty much every unit is getting doubled and one-rounded at the beginning of the game, excluding Dimitri, Felix, and Byleth. Dedue's ridiculous Defense, Wait skill, and an Iron Shield make him one of the few units who can actually take Enemy Phase damage without instantly dying. I'm not sure how I would have dealt with many of the fast early game enemies without him. I'm not sure if I'm even going to use him in the future, but I made him an Armored Knight so he can tank harder right now. Haven't been disappointed so far, but I imagine when he comes back, he'll become Dimitri's permanent adjutant. 
  • Felix: What a beast, honestly. He has the highest AS of the Lions at base with 6 AS right out of the box. This makes him significantly tankier despite his poor defenses which in turn allows him to get early XP easier than many of the others. His Speed only gets better and with a Training Sword, he has 10-11 AS as a Level 5 Myrmidon. Add on his 40% chance per attack to add 5 damage and his personal, and he is by far your strongest early game combat unit. It's probably best to transition him into an archer as early as possible though, as his paper defense will eventually hurt him, and Bow Knight is one of the best classes in the game. Heavy Draw is pretty nice as well when he can't double. 
  • Mercedes: As the game becomes more difficult, more healing is necessary for sure. I would say she's actually somewhat weaker early on because so much damage is coming at your units that her healing will usually run out on each map even with Vulneraries. Still, I think rushing her Faith skill up so you can get Physic and Fortify as soon as possible is a good idea. Restore also has its uses with all of the Seal Strength Dark Mages running around. You can give her a little Reason, but I wouldn't focus on it as she's not going to be doubling anything but Armor Knights. 
  • Ashe: Yikes. He has 4 AS with an Iron Bow at base, and at Level 5, he has 8 AS with a Training Bow. Worse than that, he's incredibly frail with both low HP and Def. I really don't recommend focusing on his Axes because those weigh him down even worse. His chip damage is helpful early game, but he's just been kind of there for me otherwise. Definitely not a unit I would focus on, and I'm not even sure if he'll realistically make it to Level 30 to become a Bow Knight. 
  • Annette: Absolutely one of the saviors of Maddening solely for her Rallies. Rushing a C+ in Authority is doable by the beginning of Chapter 4 which makes the Death Knight much more manageable. Rally Strength and Rally Speed is by far the best combination, and she gets it earlier than anyone else. Also, her magic damage is respectable, so she can chip or finish someone off when Rallies aren't necessary. I don't think Bolt Axe/Lightning Axe builds are nearly as good because most enemy units have inflated HP pools that cause her to miss out on one shotting them. On the other hand, having a flying Rallybot sounds pretty good, so it may be worth making her a Wyvern for that alone. All around, great unit on this difficulty. 
  • Sylvain: He starts out with 3 AS like Dimitri, but he also has less Strength and Defense, so things don't start out great for him. By level 5, he should have 7 AS with a Training Lance, but his damage and defense are still worse than Dimitri. The one thing I can see in his favor is easy access to Deathblow and Swift Strikes, but I've just gotten Swift Strikes on the 12th month, and I'm not sure when he'll master Brigand. I do think he'll eventually be good against certain fast enemies, but it may take a while to get there. He also benefits from getting his final class at Level 20 unlike many other units. I am curious to see how Mage Sylvain is though because it seems lower Weight and the ability to chip would help significantly in the early game. Sylvain's very alright, but I can't say much else about him right now. 
  • Ingrid: She's terrible. She has very similar bases to Sylvain, except she has 6 more Res for tanking mages. Only problem is, her low AS means she's going to be doubled by them anyway, so you're better off sending Felix to deal with them. At Level 5, she has around 9-10 Str roughly and 10-11 Speed, although both of these trend towards the lower point. She has 6-8 AS with a Training Lance, so she is more susceptible to stat screwage than Sylvain is. She still gets doubled by Mages and Thieves at the high end, and unlike Sylvain, she doesn't have anything like Swift Strikes to justify training her. She struggles to even get near enemies, and your reward for training her is a flying wet noodle at Level 10. If you could get her to become a Wyvern, maybe she'll turn out alright, but that's 19 levels of feeding her XP that could go to Felix, Dimitri, Byleth, or even Sylvain, and all of them will use it better than her. 

With this in mind, I would rank the combat of the units in this order. This is only their early game, so I'm sure my opinion will change later on. 

  1. Dimitri/Felix: They're both so good, I can't really put one over the other. Dimitri's XP bonus and Felix's high AS makes scaling them into the endgame relatively easy. 
  2. Dedue: Tanking is so essential in the early game, and Dedue is the only who can dedo it. I'm sure he'll struggle to scale later on, but his early game contribution is fantastic. 
  3. Annette: Magic chip damage is pretty helpful early on. There were many situations where I needed her + Dimitri's Tempest Lance to KO someone without taking damage. In the event her contribution isn't significant, she has her Rallies to lean on. 
  4. Sylvain: He does less damage than Dimitri, but that's not the worst thing in the world. If the other melee units are busy, Sylvain usually can do the job with some chip added on. 
  5. Ashe: Chip damage is helpful, but Ashe emphasizes the chipping part. His main use is avoiding retaliation from Mages, but his actual damage leaves quite a bit to be desired. He does get Shatter Slash and Waning Shot, so he could be turned into a debuffer of sorts. 
  6. Mercedes: Although her damage isn't that far off from Annette's, she'll be healing a lot, so her opportunities to deal damage are lower as a whole. She gets Waning Shot earlier than Ashe, so that's cool I guess. Her combat isn't why you use her though, so she's really just here to show my disdain for Ingrid. 
  7. Ingrid: Terrible. Maddening's XP penalties mean at least one unit is likely to be left in the dust, and for this group, that's probably Ingrid. If you want a good early game flier, use F!Byleth or recruit someone else because Ingrid is not going to help very much. 

Disagree with Ingrid. While her lack of strength is disappointing at first, access to Luin makes up for it, and when she becomes a Pegasus Knight, her speed and class mastery grants Darting Blow, which is amazing on this mode since AS is critical. Her high resistance makes her a good mage killer too.

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1 hour ago, ZeManaphy said:

Disagree with Ingrid. While her lack of strength is disappointing at first, access to Luin makes up for it, and when she becomes a Pegasus Knight, her speed and class mastery grants Darting Blow, which is amazing on this mode since AS is critical. Her high resistance makes her a good mage killer too.

Any lance user with a Crest can use Luin with no HP penalty, so the only point in her favor regarding Luin is that she can use its unique Combat Art. And in comparison, that only gives her +8 Mt on her attack plus whatever the Speed ratio is. If it's like the other Combat Art ratios that I know of, then it's probably Speed/3 rounded down, but maybe someone else can confirm what it actually is. Furthermore, Paralogues take quite a few months to get to and clear in Maddening, so her early game is still going to be bad. So yes, she gains a unique Combat Art to help patch up her mediocre Strength. While she's waiting to do that, Dimitri and Sylvain both hit harder than her with Tempest Lance at all stages of the game and are physically bulkier. This is important because the majority of early game enemies do physical damage, so her high Res does her few favors while she's still being doubled by 14 AS mages.

Darting Blow is also not quite as good as it is on Hard on Lance units for a few reasons. Of the two main enemy types that use swords later on, Assassins have enough AS that her ability to double them with Darting Blow is doubtful, and Swordmasters have Quick Riposte, so she will always be doubled by them regardless. Most Axe units have Axebreaker+, so she takes a -30 Hit penalty trying to attack them with a lance, and with a sword, she isn't going to one round considering her low Strength. Brawlers are similarly very fast, so that leaves Mages, Archers, and Cavaliers. Cavaliers and Archers are already rather slow for the most part, so Darting Blow mostly makes a difference with Mages. However, all of your competent combat units should be able to kill mages since they generally have very low Def and HP in comparison to other enemy types.

Every other unit besides Ashe has something that gives them a strong niche eventually. Sylvain gets Swift Strikes, one of the best combat arts in the game imo. Dedue can tank when no one else can. Felix is very close to Ingrid in Speed while having much better Strength and an amazing earlygame. Dimitri will eventually become a god on Enemy Phase with Battalion Wrath+Vantage and has great base Strength. Annette has Rally Strength, Speed, Resistance, and good chip damage. Mercedes is the best primary healer in the game, especially with the high number of enemy debuffs on this mode. And while Ashe may be bad, he at least has Curved Shot immediately to add chip damage and a strength in Axes to get Death Blow easier. Ingrid has nothing at all to make her good in the early game that I can't say of any other unit except becoming a Pegasus Knight at Level 10. And since she has somewhere around 11 or 12 Strength on average at that point, her ability to one round much of anything is suspect even if she does double. I'm sure she's fine as a recruit, but in her own house, she is worse than every other unit in a significantly difficult part of the game. In my opinion, that makes her a bad unit in BL Maddening, and any advantage she may have later cannot make up for her horrendous early game. 

 

Edited by LegendOfLoog
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  • Ingrid has a rough earlygame I have to say. She has the deepest fall of all Blue Lions because giving her combat action is really difficult for me. Her strength is low and using stronger weapons means more likely getting doubled.
  • Annette, on the other hand, is essential. Not because of her combat, but because of her rallies. Lunatic showed me that rallies can be really useful.
  • Dedue is a good tank, he is also more important than in normal mode.
  • Sylvain, oh sorry, but you are really not great. Pretty much similar as Ingrid, but not turning into an as amazing class as her.
  • Felix is amazing. Besides Byleth the only one who does not have to be feared getting double. And his output damage is good.
  • Mercedes is more desired because of healing and her magic is still good enough to deal magic damage. 
  • Ashe is pretty much useless unfortunately for me.  
  • Dimitri is in a kinda similar spot as Dedue. Can work as a physical tank, but his speed is not great. 

 

So far Annette has the biggest jump up in performance from normal to lunatic and Sylvain the biggest fall. 

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7 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Any lance user with a Crest can use Luin with no HP penalty, so the only point in her favor regarding Luin is that she can use its unique Combat Art. And in comparison, that only gives her +8 Mt on her attack plus whatever the Speed ratio is. If it's like the other Combat Art ratios that I know of, then it's probably Speed/3 rounded down, but maybe someone else can confirm what it actually is.

It's 30% of Speed rather than 1/3, but yeah I can confirm that's right. Still a pretty hefty boost. But I also like that Burning Quake gives +10 critical avoid which makes her a great choice for weakening bosses with high atk/crit and Distant Counter + gambit resistance. I'm not sure how many other combat arts actually boost critical avoid.

I agree that her earlygame isn't good though, but once she gets to Pegasus Knight she should start standing out positively especially since BL doesn't have any other pegknight candidates barring Byleth (and training Byleth's flight earlygame is annoying).

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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's 30% of Speed rather than 1/3, but yeah I can confirm that's right. Still a pretty hefty boost. But I also like that Burning Quake gives +10 critical avoid which makes her a great choice for weakening bosses with high atk/crit and Distant Counter + gambit resistance. I'm not sure how many other combat arts actually boost critical avoid.

I agree that her earlygame isn't good though, but once she gets to Pegasus Knight she should start standing out positively especially since BL doesn't have any other pegknight candidates barring Byleth (and training Byleth's flight earlygame is annoying).

The Critical Avoid sounds nice for the Death Knight at least, but in his first two appearances, Ingrid shouldn't realistically have Luin because the recommended level for that Paralogue is Level 17 on Maddening Mode. I was reaching that level with Byleth and Dimitri around the Remire Village chapter while my other units were a bit behind, but let's assume Ingrid is Level 17 at Remire and has gone through Myrmidon -> PegKnight to pick up Speed +2 and Darting Blow. I'm going to primarily compare her to Sylvain and Dimitri since they're the closest in function during the early chapters.

  •  Myrmidon -> PegKnight Ingrid: 13.6 Str, 23.55 Spd with Spd +2
  • Soldier -> Cavalier Dimitri:  22.95 Str, 15.3 Spd dismounted
  • Fighter -> Brigand Sylvain: 21.15 Str with Str +2, 16 Spd

If Ingrid has seen enough combat to have Darting Blow, then that's 29.55 Speed on Player Phase. Her Atk with Luin by itself is 30.6, so with Burning Quake, she should get roughly 9 Mt from her Spd and 8 from the Art. The Death Knight has 20 Def and 49 HP at his first appearance in Maddening, so I'll use those numbers as a base since I wasn't really paying attention during this chapter. She should deal 27-28 damage with a high enough AS where she shouldn't be doubled at least. Looking at the progression in Hard Mode, the Death Knight's stats do increase slightly with each appearance, so the actual damage she does should be a bit less than this.

Knightkneeler adds 5 Mt, so against cavaliers, a Luin Knightkneeler should have a Weapon Mt of 22 x 2 or 44. That means Knightkneeler has 66.95 Atk for Dimitri and 65.15 Atk for Sylvain. This is significantly higher than Burning Quake's 47.6 for Ingrid. With a Lance of Ruin Knightkneeler, they deal 10 more damage as well. I'm assuming here that Sylvain hasn't mastered Death Blow since Brigands see less combat than fliers generally, but if he had, he has a maximum of 81.15 Atk here. Even in fringe cases, Ingrid is outclassed. In a more general sense, her Luin AS without Darting Blow is 16-17 while Dimitri has 10-11 dismounted and Sylvain has 11, so her greatest point above them is that she can double more often and is doubled less often with Luin. On the other hand, they're also more likely to be closer to any Ralliers you may have, so Rally Speed helps bridge this gap on Player Phase at least.

Further, with a Training Lance+, Dimitri and Sylvain have 15-16 AS while only having 4-5 Atk less than Ingrid with Luin. Ingrid needs Luin to do significant damage, but it also weighs her down to the point that she has similar AS on Enemy Phase to the other lancers with a small amount of Atk over them. Her main perk here is flight as you said, but most enemies have enough HP, Def, or Spd that she's not able to clear benchmarks like she could on Hard. She takes physical hits worse than Dimitri and Sylvain as shown below, and since the majority of enemies are physical, she has to be much more careful with her positioning. 

  • Dimitri: 39.7 HP, 16.75 Def with Def +2
  • Sylvain: 40.4 HP, 12.4 Def
  • Ingrid: 34.95 HP, 9.8 Def

As important as Attack Speed is, it's also important to actually do damage. While Ingrid's Speed grows higher, Sylvain has vastly better Strength, Death Blow, and Swift Strikes, so his contribution on Player Phase is better. On Enemy Phase, Dimitri has Battalion Wrath+Vantage, so with a Killer Lance+ or Scythe of Sariel with the Retribution Gambit, he destroys any enemy that approaches him. Honestly, I think Ingrid actually scales the worst of the three because more enemies have Quick Riposte and actually high AS that her low Str really hurts her, to say nothing of the many Axe units running around with Lancebreaker+. I'm open to changing my mind, but I can't see the merit of a flier that struggles to kill enemies and cannot take damage in return. 

 

Edited by LegendOfLoog
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Not completely ordered btw. Based on discussion this seems to be what people think and some of my own input.

Petra vs Ingrid need to have at least a tier gap since Petra late recruit bases are insane and Ingrid struggles early game.

Moved Caspar up since he's the only "bulky" unit in Black Eagles.

Felix is order wise lower than Leonie since late recruit Leonie has better skill proficiencies. 

Annette up due to early game rally. Unsure how much up.

Lysithea down cause bad bulk and later access to Thyrus making the move more of a problem.

Gilbert, Alois up cause bulk

Pls help because the A tier is way too bloated right now.

 

Screen Shot 2019-09-14 at 4.28.47 PM.png

Edited by leesangstar10
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Move Hubert up a tier at least.

Mire is so important to have in Chapter 2 Maddening because it is Def -5 on connection. Nobody else has any debuffs at this stage in the game and it is vital for disposing of both the Brigand (who sports 34 HP and 9 Def) and the 39 HP, 12 Def Kostas. Never mind that Kostas also has 11 AS and has to die the turn after he moves.

Just on that alone, Hubert should be in B+ rather than someone like Caspar.

Utility matters a lot on Maddening.

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49 minutes ago, Life said:

Utility matters a lot on Maddening.

If that's the case, then Mercedes is in the wrong tier.  Her bow skill is Waning Shot, which is -5 Atk from 2-3 range (for reference, all other stat-changing bow skills need to be C+ or higher).  Plus, she heals herself when she heals someone else, which means that as long as there's a wounded ally, she'll keep herself healthy - and she doesn't have to be next to someone to heal them.

I'm not sure how many hits allies can take on Maddening, but if it's in the realm of "more than FE12", then perhaps those with relevant Seal skills also need to move up within their own tiers (Ferdinand and Hilda are big ones; Dimitri's fine where he is, and the argument for Ignatz/Flayn is that they can both do theirs at range because they'll most likely be in ranged classes).

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19 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If that's the case, then Mercedes is in the wrong tier.  Her bow skill is Waning Shot, which is -5 Atk from 2-3 range (for reference, all other stat-changing bow skills need to be C+ or higher).  Plus, she heals herself when she heals someone else, which means that as long as there's a wounded ally, she'll keep herself healthy - and she doesn't have to be next to someone to heal them.

I'm not sure how many hits allies can take on Maddening, but if it's in the realm of "more than FE12", then perhaps those with relevant Seal skills also need to move up within their own tiers (Ferdinand and Hilda are big ones; Dimitri's fine where he is, and the argument for Ignatz/Flayn is that they can both do theirs at range because they'll most likely be in ranged classes).

I'd say that Mercedes is fine where she is because she's never really going to have a solid player phase outside of healing and the Blue Lions actually have tanks which negates a lot of Waning Shot's utility.

Hubert, on the other hand, does solid damage and debuffs at the same time.

As for general tankiness, Chapter 2 Iron Sword!Thieves have 14 AS and 16 Atk. Outside of Edelgard (3), Gary Stu (4) and Hubert (2), everyone started Chapter 2 at level 1 so we can calculate everything against bases.

Here are enemy stats from the chapter. I don't know if they're route dependant. Brackets indicate stats affected by battalions. I've also added in the skills that you be aware of (Prowess skills simply boost Hit/Avo/Crit Avo).

 

Lv 9 Thief - Iron Sword (Pass)

16 Atk, 14 AS, 111 Hit - 31 HP, 9 Prt, 3 Rsl, 30 Avo

Lv 9 Brigand - Iron Axe (Lancebreaker+)

22 Atk, 9 AS, 94 Hit - 34 HP, 9 Prt, 3 Rsl, 17 Avo

Lv 9 Fighter - Iron Axe

19 (17) Atk, 8~9 AS, 91 Hit - 29 HP, 8 (10) Prt, 5 Rsl, 15~16 Avo

Lv 9 Archer - Iron Bow (Bowrange +1, Poison Strike)

16~17 Atk, 9~10 AS, 108 Hit - 30 HP, 8 Prt, 5 Rsl, 21~22 Avo

Lv 9 Priest - Nosferatu (White Magic Heal +5)

10 Atk, 7 AS, 96 Hit - 30 HP, 7 Prt, 9 Rsl, 23 Avo

Lv 11 Kostas (Thief) - Iron Axe

23 Atk, 11 AS, 97 Hit - 39 HP, 13 Prt, 5 Rsl, 18 Avo

 

These guys are not messing around. All the theorycrafting in the world isn't going to help when a Pass Thief bypasses your front lines and ORKOs base Dorothea or an Archer does the same to base Lindhardt from 3 range.

 

Edited by Life
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image.thumb.png.31c2c5fd188b16b0e8a130e0f89c0063.png

Preliminary Maddening Tier List (basically almost all theory for the BE/GD/SS routes, midway through BL Maddening atm, also not a NG+ tier list)

Spoiler

S Tier

  • Byleth - Going to be your preliminary tank unit (especially for the Black Eagles) and will make the early game for more manageable. Bylass > Bylad because Bylass can become a Pegasus Knight which doesn't take much effort even in vanilla mode. Personal is also great considering exp is cut in half as well.
  • Claude - Most likely going to be more consistent than the other 2 lords just because bows are quite strong and, he gets a mount in part 2 for free (Edelgard needs to work towards getting a Wyvern because Armored Lord is an underwhelming class). I think going Brigand -> Sniper is going to be your best bet for Death Blow and Sniper will give Claude range, I don't think going Wyvern Rider will be the right move in Maddening (though I prefer Wyvern Rider Claude in Hard mode).
  • Edelgard - Is basically the Black Eagles only consistently tanky unit besides Byleth. While she'll get doubled a lot in Maddening, her bulk + high Str will her a lot in the enemy phase. She can also has access to Wyvern Rider (though I assume she won't be getting it as easily due to exp cuts and it'll take a bit to reach Lvl 20) and Raging Storm in part 2. However, I don't think Raging Storm strats will be as potent in Maddening just because CF route will have the steepest level curve of all the routes due to having less chapters but, we'll see.
  • Dimitri - Imo will be better than Edelgard in part 1 just because he has more raw power but, similar bulk. Tempest Lance is a great combat art combined with Dimitri's high Str and Annette's Rally helps out in the early-mid game a lot. Downfall will be his part 2 where it'll be hard to invest into him since he's blocked from instruction until after Chapter 18.

A Tier

  • Felix - Great early game because of his personal, making the first 3-4 chapters a breeze (especially the mock battle if you give him a Bow). His high Str/Spd growths should hopefully carry him well into the mid-late game. Heavy Draw will be nice for poke.
  • Petra - Same deal as Felix but, the personal is just more situational. Pretty much going to be the only unit of the BEs that won't get doubled by enemies unless she gets Spd screwed somehow. Has access to Waning Shot too for debuffing.
  • Leonie - Same deal as Felix/Petra, personal will help early on since you need any boost you can get. Has access to Break Shot for debuffing.
  • Catherine - Prepromoted unit that joins early (though I doubt anyone can get Byleth to Lvl 15 on Maddening by Chapter 4, even if you funnel all enemy kills to them) and has great bases + the Str to use Thunderbrand. Will be your best unit if you get her early because of that until your party catches up.
  • Lysithea - Pretty big drop from hard mode since I don't find Warp strats as effective anymore. I seriously doubt Warping someone into the middle of a crows with Retribution/Ward will be an effective strat and Warp skipping will cause your units to miss out on much needed exp which will make chapters that are hard to warp skip a lot harder. However, she's going to be one of the best combat mages and is an effective debuffer because of her range + access to Swarm (-5 Speed to enemies) which is pretty huge. Gremory will probably still be her best class just because you probably would want more uses of her nuking spells (Luna and Dark Spikes)

B Tier

  • Hilda - Basically the Edelgard of the GDs, personal will early on since you need any boost you can get. She also gets Seal Speed which is great with a Hand Axe to cripple enemies from afar. Probably would want to invest in her Armor skill for Weight -3 anyways.
  • Shamir - Same deal as Catherine but, she's a Sniper with high Str and a pretty solid selection of combat arts. Biggest selling point besides her bases + level is her "quick" access to Hunter's Volley early on which will most definitely be a great asset in Maddening mode.
  • Seteth - Joins late compared to other units but, has pretty solid bases (especially his base Defense). Doesn't require much investment at all honestly and has quick access to Swift Strikes. 
  • Flayn - Controversial placement I'll assume because people either love or hate Rescue in this game. Personally, I really value Rescue for Rescue/Stride/Dance shenanigans in Hard mode and to also save units that got screwed over in the player phase. With how important player phase is in Maddening, Rescue will be very nice to rescue any units in danger (saving your Divine Pulses will be important). She also has access to Fortify which will be much more beneficial in Maddening just because all your units will be taking quite a lot of damage (Fortify was overkill in Hard). Also she has Seal Magic + the Res stat to cripple mages.
  • Hubert - Should've moved him up within the tier honestly but I'm lazy so I'm not. Underrated unit overall, lacks utility but, he has the raw power that Dorothea doesn't have (I've always seen the Hubert vs. Dorothea debate). Mire is not only a 1-3 spell like Thoron but, it has more uses and a debuff (-5 Defense) at an expense of less power and he gets it very early on.
  • Mercedes - Same deal as Flayn minus the spiel about Rescue. Has Fortify and Physic to make her a solid healer throughout the entire game (whereas Flayn can only start being a healbot once she gets Fortify). Waning Shot is kinda ehh, kind of a waste to invest in her Bow skill but, it still wouldn't take that long to unlock her budding talent.
  • Linhardt - Consistent healer throughout the entire game but, Physic tends to lose potency in the late game but, Linhardt's crest + Heal Staff will help alleviate those problems slightly. Has access to Warp which is nice, though the usefulness of Warp definitely isn't as potent in Maddening than it is on hard (could be 100% wrong since this is base on theory and what I assume Maddening mode will be like).
  • Marianne - Same deal as Linhardt minus the spiel about Warp and his crest. 
  • Sylvain - I put him higher than Ferdinand mainly because he's a free recruit for anyone who chooses Bylass and he nets you the Lance of Ruin early on if he's in your party + you decline Rhea's request to return it for a solid weapon early on. Personal is very handy early on since any boost early will be beneficial (feel as though this Maddening is how well you can survive early on, and it just feels easier for the mid portion of the game since I didn't really struggle past chapter 6 honestly).
  • Ferdinand - Same deal as Sylvain but, his personal is better for the late game where dodge tanking becomes a lot more consistent. He can go Bow Knight which Sylvain can't really attain too easily due to a bane in Bows, and Bow Knights are OP. Can poke with Bows/Javelin to proc Seal Speed with his budding talent.
  • Ingrid - Definitely a unit you'd want to late recruit because her Str stat has a big chance to become poop if you try to train her yourself. She's maybe not the best unit in BL just because training her is a lot harder especially if she doesn't get those Str procs but, as a late join unit in other houses she comes with 19 str iirc (or 21 idr) at level 23. 

C Tier 

  • Annette - Rally bot (with Rally Str/Spd) makes her incredibly useful early on. I plan on making her a Wyvern Lord with Fiendish Blow just so she can still poke with Bolt Axe+ (and maybe weaken something with Lightning Axe) while having flying Rally utility. 
  • Dedue - High defense stat makes the early game for BL a lot easier, especially with Annette's rallies. I assume he'll fall off late game since there are a lot of magic users in the late game of BL and he rejoins late but, we'll see.
  • Ignatz - Gets Rally Speed early and Seal Str with his budding talent and he can poke afar with his bows to debuff enemies. Gets Break Shot for debuffing purposes.
  • Raphael - Gets Rally Str early and is pretty bulky overall
  • Bernadetta - Has the solid poke early on due to her crest + her personal but, will scale pretty badly unless she gets the Str growth she needs as an Archer. I'd imagine Cavalier -> Bow Knight path be better (though I still believe she's a lot better as a mage but, idk if that will hold up in Maddening) for a better Str growth and she can pull off some Vengeance strats pretty well.
  • Hanneman - Good filler unit, has the high magic growth + a solid Reason pool and joins with pretty decent bases. Schism Shot + Rally Magic (personal) helps if you have Mages. Honestly, would move him up  but, I'm lazy.
  • Dorothea - Same deal with Hanneman but, she definitely had the biggest fall from grace just because her combat most likely won't hold up with increased enemy Res stats and her average Magic growth. She still has great poke + utility with Thoron, Physic, and Meteor but, personally don't see her great as a combat mage in the long term. Would probably move her down ngl but, I might get witch hunted.
  • Alois - FIller unit, pretty decent bases bar his Speed (can work around with his Brawling rank) and comes with Rally Str. Not sure how Rallies will hold up late game but, Warmaster could be a lot stronger in Maddening since overkill damage might be necessary? The pretty high Auth rank is also nice since he's close to equipping nice battalions like Goneril Valkyries or Fradarious Soldiers.
  • Gilbert - Same thing as Alois but, joins late. He's incredibly tanky which can be helpful in BL but, he'll probably fall off late due to the influx of magic users in late game BL. I'd reclass him into a Paladin (he automatically unlocks the requirements) and then work him towards a Wyvern Lord. Has Rally Defense which can be nice but idk how useful it will be in part 2.
  • Manuela - Weird unit, I don't see myself valuing Warp the same way I value Warp in hard mode, and that's really all she brings to the table.

D Tier 

  • Ashe - Poke bot in the early game with Curved Shot/Deadeye + Bows. Shatter Slash can be useful with the -5 Def debuff but, it puts him in range of the enemy. Doesn't have much utility and won't scale too well even as a Bow Knight or Wyvern Lord.
  • Lorenz - Pretty decent early as a Mage I'd assume but, he'll scale poorly due to really average growths with his Jack of All trades of growths. Though he gets us the Thrysus which is nice.

E Tier

  • Caspar - Low base Speed forces him to play catchup while his ehh bulk won't let him tank as well as Edelgard can.
  • Cyril - LOL

Wanna see how this tier list will hold once more people finish Maddening mode

Edited by Lunarly
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Healers need to go down a tier (Lindhardt and Mercedes at the very least).

Healing is nice but being ORKO'd at 3 range or by Pass is so debilitating regarding their use. Not to mention that Heal has 5 uses and Chapter 2 took me 29 Turns as a VERY rough baseline. I'd love to get that number below 20 but it doesn't matter since they're getting next to no Exp early because they can't even be near the frontlines without immediately dying.

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Just now, Life said:

Healers need to go down a tier (Lindhardt and Mercedes at the very least).

Healing is nice but being ORKO'd at 3 range or by Pass is so debilitating regarding their use. Not to mention that Heal has 5 uses and Chapter 2 took me 29 Turns as a VERY rough baseline. I'd love to get that number below 20 but it doesn't matter since they're getting next to no Exp early because they can't even be near the frontlines without immediately dying.

That's a Commonobler thing; it's 10 when you're in a proper mage class.
And if you're worried about getting doubled by archers you can't counter, try equipping Heal instead of Nosferatu.

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1 minute ago, Technoweirdo said:

That's a Commonobler thing; it's 10 when you're in a proper mage class.
And if you're worried about getting doubled by archers you can't counter, try equipping Heal instead of Nosferatu.

Lindhardt has 5 Spd at base. Archers in Chapter 2 have 9~10 AS, usually 10.

Lindhardt just dies if anything looks at him funny.

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I think Mercedes is definitely better than Marianne and Lindhardt by virtue of having Physic and Fortify alone. No one else has that combination, and with Restore, she can cleanse any enemy debuffs as well, and there are many of those on Maddening unfortunately. Assassins have Poison, Dark Mages and Warlocks have Seal Strength and Defense respectively. She also has better base Speed at 8 than both of them along with higher Def and HP. She's great honestly, and her healing is so, so good. 

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Just now, Life said:

Lindhardt has 5 Spd at base. Archers in Chapter 2 have 9~10 AS, usually 10.

Lindhardt just dies if anything looks at him funny.

Well, guess that's a Linhardt thing. Did fine with Marianne.
*Quickly checks* Yeah, Marianne has 7 Spd base. Mercedes has 8. Really is a Linhardt thing, poor guy.

Aside: Caspar being surprised by Mercedes' speed in her paralogue makes more sense now. lol

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1 hour ago, Lunarly said:

image.thumb.png.31c2c5fd188b16b0e8a130e0f89c0063.png

Preliminary Maddening Tier List (basically almost all theory for the BE/GD/SS routes, midway through BL Maddening atm, also not a NG+ tier list)

  Reveal hidden contents

S Tier

  • Byleth - Going to be your preliminary tank unit (especially for the Black Eagles) and will make the early game for more manageable. Bylass > Bylad because Bylass can become a Pegasus Knight which doesn't take much effort even in vanilla mode. Personal is also great considering exp is cut in half as well.
  • Claude - Most likely going to be more consistent than the other 2 lords just because bows are quite strong and, he gets a mount in part 2 for free (Edelgard needs to work towards getting a Wyvern because Armored Lord is an underwhelming class). I think going Brigand -> Sniper is going to be your best bet for Death Blow and Sniper will give Claude range, I don't think going Wyvern Rider will be the right move in Maddening (though I prefer Wyvern Rider Claude in Hard mode).
  • Edelgard - Is basically the Black Eagles only consistently tanky unit besides Byleth. While she'll get doubled a lot in Maddening, her bulk + high Str will her a lot in the enemy phase. She can also has access to Wyvern Rider (though I assume she won't be getting it as easily due to exp cuts and it'll take a bit to reach Lvl 20) and Raging Storm in part 2. However, I don't think Raging Storm strats will be as potent in Maddening just because CF route will have the steepest level curve of all the routes due to having less chapters but, we'll see.
  • Dimitri - Imo will be better than Edelgard in part 1 just because he has more raw power but, similar bulk. Tempest Lance is a great combat art combined with Dimitri's high Str and Annette's Rally helps out in the early-mid game a lot. Downfall will be his part 2 where it'll be hard to invest into him since he's blocked from instruction until after Chapter 18.

A Tier

  • Felix - Great early game because of his personal, making the first 3-4 chapters a breeze (especially the mock battle if you give him a Bow). His high Str/Spd growths should hopefully carry him well into the mid-late game. Heavy Draw will be nice for poke.
  • Petra - Same deal as Felix but, the personal is just more situational. Pretty much going to be the only unit of the BEs that won't get doubled by enemies unless she gets Spd screwed somehow. Has access to Waning Shot too for debuffing.
  • Leonie - Same deal as Felix/Petra, personal will help early on since you need any boost you can get. Has access to Break Shot for debuffing.
  • Catherine - Prepromoted unit that joins early (though I doubt anyone can get Byleth to Lvl 15 on Maddening by Chapter 4, even if you funnel all enemy kills to them) and has great bases + the Str to use Thunderbrand. Will be your best unit if you get her early because of that until your party catches up.
  • Lysithea - Pretty big drop from hard mode since I don't find Warp strats as effective anymore. I seriously doubt Warping someone into the middle of a crows with Retribution/Ward will be an effective strat and Warp skipping will cause your units to miss out on much needed exp which will make chapters that are hard to warp skip a lot harder. However, she's going to be one of the best combat mages and is an effective debuffer because of her range + access to Swarm (-5 Speed to enemies) which is pretty huge. Gremory will probably still be her best class just because you probably would want more uses of her nuking spells (Luna and Dark Spikes)

B Tier

  • Hilda - Basically the Edelgard of the GDs, personal will early on since you need any boost you can get. She also gets Seal Speed which is great with a Hand Axe to cripple enemies from afar. Probably would want to invest in her Armor skill for Weight -3 anyways.
  • Shamir - Same deal as Catherine but, she's a Sniper with high Str and a pretty solid selection of combat arts. Biggest selling point besides her bases + level is her "quick" access to Hunter's Volley early on which will most definitely be a great asset in Maddening mode.
  • Seteth - Joins late compared to other units but, has pretty solid bases (especially his base Defense). Doesn't require much investment at all honestly and has quick access to Swift Strikes. 
  • Flayn - Controversial placement I'll assume because people either love or hate Rescue in this game. Personally, I really value Rescue for Rescue/Stride/Dance shenanigans in Hard mode and to also save units that got screwed over in the player phase. With how important player phase is in Maddening, Rescue will be very nice to rescue any units in danger (saving your Divine Pulses will be important). She also has access to Fortify which will be much more beneficial in Maddening just because all your units will be taking quite a lot of damage (Fortify was overkill in Hard). Also she has Seal Magic + the Res stat to cripple mages.
  • Hubert - Should've moved him up within the tier honestly but I'm lazy so I'm not. Underrated unit overall, lacks utility but, he has the raw power that Dorothea doesn't have (I've always seen the Hubert vs. Dorothea debate). Mire is not only a 1-3 spell like Thoron but, it has more uses and a debuff (-5 Defense) at an expense of less power and he gets it very early on.
  • Mercedes - Same deal as Flayn minus the spiel about Rescue. Has Fortify and Physic to make her a solid healer throughout the entire game (whereas Flayn can only start being a healbot once she gets Fortify). Waning Shot is kinda ehh, kind of a waste to invest in her Bow skill but, it still wouldn't take that long to unlock her budding talent.
  • Linhardt - Consistent healer throughout the entire game but, Physic tends to lose potency in the late game but, Linhardt's crest + Heal Staff will help alleviate those problems slightly. Has access to Warp which is nice, though the usefulness of Warp definitely isn't as potent in Maddening than it is on hard (could be 100% wrong since this is base on theory and what I assume Maddening mode will be like).
  • Marianne - Same deal as Linhardt minus the spiel about Warp and his crest. 
  • Sylvain - I put him higher than Ferdinand mainly because he's a free recruit for anyone who chooses Bylass and he nets you the Lance of Ruin early on if he's in your party + you decline Rhea's request to return it for a solid weapon early on. Personal is very handy early on since any boost early will be beneficial (feel as though this Maddening is how well you can survive early on, and it just feels easier for the mid portion of the game since I didn't really struggle past chapter 6 honestly).
  • Ferdinand - Same deal as Sylvain but, his personal is better for the late game where dodge tanking becomes a lot more consistent. He can go Bow Knight which Sylvain can't really attain too easily due to a bane in Bows, and Bow Knights are OP. Can poke with Bows/Javelin to proc Seal Speed with his budding talent.
  • Ingrid - Definitely a unit you'd want to late recruit because her Str stat has a big chance to become poop if you try to train her yourself. She's maybe not the best unit in BL just because training her is a lot harder especially if she doesn't get those Str procs but, as a late join unit in other houses she comes with 19 str iirc (or 21 idr) at level 23. 

C Tier 

  • Annette - Rally bot (with Rally Str/Spd) makes her incredibly useful early on. I plan on making her a Wyvern Lord with Fiendish Blow just so she can still poke with Bolt Axe+ (and maybe weaken something with Lightning Axe) while having flying Rally utility. 
  • Dedue - High defense stat makes the early game for BL a lot easier, especially with Annette's rallies. I assume he'll fall off late game since there are a lot of magic users in the late game of BL and he rejoins late but, we'll see.
  • Ignatz - Gets Rally Speed early and Seal Str with his budding talent and he can poke afar with his bows to debuff enemies. Gets Break Shot for debuffing purposes.
  • Raphael - Gets Rally Str early and is pretty bulky overall
  • Bernadetta - Has the solid poke early on due to her crest + her personal but, will scale pretty badly unless she gets the Str growth she needs as an Archer. I'd imagine Cavalier -> Bow Knight path be better (though I still believe she's a lot better as a mage but, idk if that will hold up in Maddening) for a better Str growth and she can pull off some Vengeance strats pretty well.
  • Hanneman - Good filler unit, has the high magic growth + a solid Reason pool and joins with pretty decent bases. Schism Shot + Rally Magic (personal) helps if you have Mages. Honestly, would move him up  but, I'm lazy.
  • Dorothea - Same deal with Hanneman but, she definitely had the biggest fall from grace just because her combat most likely won't hold up with increased enemy Res stats and her average Magic growth. She still has great poke + utility with Thoron, Physic, and Meteor but, personally don't see her great as a combat mage in the long term. Would probably move her down ngl but, I might get witch hunted.
  • Alois - FIller unit, pretty decent bases bar his Speed (can work around with his Brawling rank) and comes with Rally Str. Not sure how Rallies will hold up late game but, Warmaster could be a lot stronger in Maddening since overkill damage might be necessary? The pretty high Auth rank is also nice since he's close to equipping nice battalions like Goneril Valkyries or Fradarious Soldiers.
  • Gilbert - Same thing as Alois but, joins late. He's incredibly tanky which can be helpful in BL but, he'll probably fall off late due to the influx of magic users in late game BL. I'd reclass him into a Paladin (he automatically unlocks the requirements) and then work him towards a Wyvern Lord. Has Rally Defense which can be nice but idk how useful it will be in part 2.
  • Manuela - Weird unit, I don't see myself valuing Warp the same way I value Warp in hard mode, and that's really all she brings to the table.

D Tier 

  • Ashe - Poke bot in the early game with Curved Shot/Deadeye + Bows. Shatter Slash can be useful with the -5 Def debuff but, it puts him in range of the enemy. Doesn't have much utility and won't scale too well even as a Bow Knight or Wyvern Lord.
  • Lorenz - Pretty decent early as a Mage I'd assume but, he'll scale poorly due to really average growths with his Jack of All trades of growths. Though he gets us the Thrysus which is nice.

E Tier

  • Caspar - Low base Speed forces him to play catchup while his ehh bulk won't let him tank as well as Edelgard can.
  • Cyril - LOL

Wanna see how this tier list will hold once more people finish Maddening mode

I've only just finished Chapter 5 of Black Eagles Maddening, but I can offer a bit of personal input on the characters:

Edelgard: I go back and forth on whether she's S Tier or A Tier.  She hits like a truck, but she gets doubled pretty frequently and her bulk really isn't all that great.  For reference, back in Chapter 2, the enemy axe fighters could almost ORKO Edelgard unless I equipped her with a sword (IIRC, they did 14 x 2).  She also has a weakness in Bows, which hurts when Bows are so useful on this difficulty.  I'll have to keep playing to formulate a final opinion on her (and everyone else, for that matter).

Petra: High A Rank is accurate to her performance for me thus far.

Hubert: Hubert is interesting because he hits very hard, as well as having early 1-3 range magic.  However, Hubert is made of paper, and his accuracy is really shaky.  I constantly have to gamble on 55% hit rates with Mire with him.  B Rank is probably proper placement for him, IMO.

Linhardt: He should be either bottom of B Tier or top of C Tier.  I appreciate his accuracy and chip damage with his magic, and healing is always is useful; however, you can't put him at risk at all.  The guy just evaporates.

Ferdinand: His start is rough, but he gets a bit better as time goes on.  Low B Tier is probably fitting.

Bernadetta: My Bernie has gotten a little stat screwed, but she still's fairly useful.  Her chip damage with bows is fairly useful but her real strength lies with lances; with Vengeance, she can really pile the damage on.  She might honestly be B Tier.

Dorothea: Dorothea's early game utility can not be understated.  Her personal is extremely useful on Maddening difficulty.  Her base Magic is 11, only 1 point lower than Hubert; granted, her growth rate is 15% lower, so she might fall off later down the road.  Her HP is also slightly better than Hubert's, which might not sound like a huge deal, but it has made the difference between dying and not dying for me.  Thoron and Physic are always useful.  I would personally put her at B Rank, but she should at the very least be near the top of C Rank.

Caspar: I've had very little success with Caspar; my personal Caspar would probably be E Rank, but he might be closer to D Rank or low C Rank.

 

Again, only finished Chapter 5, so none of this is concrete; just early impressions.

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Currently on chapter 6 for golden deer Maddening (Haven't done their route before) but im REALLY liking HIlda so far. She is a good hard hitter and lives a lot of hits compared to the rest of the cast. Great defense, strength and enough speed to not be doubled (besides ch6 mages) . I'll help her speed by getting armor weight -3 and making her wyvern unless there's better options i don't know of. Claude is really solid too though he's not in this chapter (which is a huge loss honestly because this chapter is ridiculous for me) but he's doing great since he got close counter. 

 

Leonie is excellent. Great speed, strength and defense and can live 2-3 enemies attacking her which is much better than most of my units

Lorenz feels like a filler unit that I might drop soon enough. His growths seem like he will drop but for now he is a good unit that is an all arounder that can live against the chapter 6 mages doubling him

 

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I don't know if this was stated before or not, but do recruitable "enemies" get a boost in strength? Other classes are considered rivals, so shouldn't surprise me.

Anyone already looked into this? Currently "stuck" in GD. It's a bit too boring to advance... never touching this route again, also hating my whole house... what a boring characters, played BE before. 

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15 hours ago, Lunarly said:

Manuela - Weird unit, I don't see myself valuing Warp the same way I value Warp in hard mode, and that's really all she brings to the table.

What about the fact she starts with Silence! That can shut down enemy mages temporarily. Also if you do manage to force her down reason she gets bolting. (Might not be worth it since it’s A rank but if you recruit her early enough and force her to study it it’s possible to get it eventually)

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2 hours ago, iavasechui said:

What about the fact she starts with Silence! That can shut down enemy mages temporarily. Also if you do manage to force her down reason she gets bolting. (Might not be worth it since it’s A rank but if you recruit her early enough and force her to study it it’s possible to get it eventually)

She's not getting it on Maddening. >.>
(Fun fact: I checked out weekly study exp after reading this. Had a feeling something was wrong beforehand...)

Oh, uh, this may also healers who'd like to go Dark Knight for firepower over Holy Knight, warriors who'd like to fly, etc.

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20 hours ago, Life said:

Move Hubert up a tier at least.

Mire is so important to have in Chapter 2 Maddening because it is Def -5 on connection. Nobody else has any debuffs at this stage in the game and it is vital for disposing of both the Brigand (who sports 34 HP and 9 Def) and the 39 HP, 12 Def Kostas. Never mind that Kostas also has 11 AS and has to die the turn after he moves.

Just on that alone, Hubert should be in B+ rather than someone like Caspar.

Utility matters a lot on Maddening.

Ehh not sure though. Black eagles have such limited options when it comes to bulk. Everybody in the house is so frail so that's why Caspar is high. His role is much more useful and important compared to Hubert. Also his utility is outclassed by other mages like Dorothea and Linhart who can attack and heal. Heal > debut

18 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

I think Mercedes is definitely better than Marianne and Lindhardt by virtue of having Physic and Fortify alone. No one else has that combination, and with Restore, she can cleanse any enemy debuffs as well, and there are many of those on Maddening unfortunately. Assassins have Poison, Dark Mages and Warlocks have Seal Strength and Defense respectively. She also has better base Speed at 8 than both of them along with higher Def and HP. She's great honestly, and her healing is so, so good. 

Yes I do agree I wasn't sure if people still value warp utility or not. Probably at this point going to switch Linhardt and Mercedes's placement.

3 hours ago, iavasechui said:

What about the fact she starts with Silence! That can shut down enemy mages temporarily. Also if you do manage to force her down reason she gets bolting. (Might not be worth it since it’s A rank but if you recruit her early enough and force her to study it it’s possible to get it eventually)

The problem is that her utility options aren't very good since she basically only have warp and hard to train her reason. The spells she even gets aren't even that good except bolting, which is very limited in uses and very late game. Also she has the worst magic growth out of the main magic users. To me, she's a worse Ingrid because you can recruit her whenever you want, gets physics, she gets thoron to help early game, not to mention they basically have the same growths.

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I'm currently playing Church route maddening (no NG+), and I wanted to try a different class for M!Byleth. In my previous playthroughs I've gone with Enlightened One each time. The tier list above recommends Falcon Knight for F!Byleth as a strong physical class with good movement, but I'm not sure what would be a good mounted class for M!Byleth. I wanted to see if perhaps Wyvern Lord or Bow Knight would suit him, since they are the strongest physical classes and have more move. Out of these two, is there one you would recommend in particular, or is Enlightened One still the best option?

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