Fire Emblem Three Houses Unit Tier Lists

[Burklight]

It's still good, just not for the reason you're giving. WM is meant to be used with killer weapons IMO. QR gives you double attack on enemy phase while your HP is over 50%, so you always get two attacks with 50~70% crit rate. Gauntlets on player phase give you the same chances for a crit kill before the enemy can even counter attack, and vantage gives you a 50~70% crit one shot potential on enemy phase when you take enough damage for QR to fall off. 

And before anyone asks, 20% crit from WM passive +  ~30% from killer weapon + base crit + 10 because you probably S ranked gauntlets or axes by this point.

[Silly]

6 minutes ago, Burklight said:

It's still good, just not for the reason you're giving. WM is meant to be used with killer weapons IMO. QR gives you double attack on enemy phase while your HP is over 50%, so you always get two attacks with 50~70% crit rate. Gauntlets on player phase give you the same chances for a crit kill before the enemy can even counter attack, and vantage gives you a 50~70% crit one shot potential on enemy phase when you take enough damage for QR to fall off. 

And before anyone asks, 20% crit from WM passive +  ~30% from killer weapon + base crit + 10 because you probably S ranked gauntlets or axes by this point.

Note that late game enemies will likely have around 30 crit avoid (~20 luck + weapon prowess rank 5), while you will likely have less base crit than that (level 40 Felix averages approximately 22 crit, for example). Also, I'm not sure how reliable S rank is. You have slightly reduced weapon exp on Maddening, and I found that it's much more valuable to invest in other skills rather than spend the insane amount of exp it takes to get to S and S+ ranks. (Ignoring grinding here.)

You'll likely have 20 crit from your class, 35 crit from a Killer+, and approximately -10 crit from the enemy's crit avoid versus your base crit, so I would expect 45%. Throw in a battalion if you can afford to use a +crit battalion instead of a different stat stick.

[LegendOfLoog]

42 minutes ago, Silly said:

Note that late game enemies will likely have around 30 crit avoid (~20 luck + weapon prowess rank 5), while you will likely have less base crit than that (level 40 Felix averages approximately 22 crit, for example). Also, I'm not sure how reliable S rank is. You have slightly reduced weapon exp on Maddening, and I found that it's much more valuable to invest in other skills rather than spend the insane amount of exp it takes to get to S and S+ ranks. (Ignoring grinding here.)

If we're specifically talking about Byleth here, I imagine they could get an S decently fast through Advanced Training in Part Two. Specifically for Axes, chances are you have at least a few Wyvern Lord units sitting around that can help tutor Byleth, and if not, Alois and Seteth can help as well. If we're considering that Byleth will already have the Knowledge Gem to build up their class mastery, it seems very reasonable to have at least one S rank. 

You could throw in Wrath here from the Warrior line to push Byleth over 100% without needing an S rank.  So you have 20 Crit from your class, 35 from a Killer+, -10 from the enemy, and then +50 from Wrath. That should give 95, and there are quite a few battalions that can probably make that 100. Quick Riposte also works rather nicely here since there's no chance of Byleth being doubled on Enemy Phase by anything but enemy Brave weapons. That should make putting him into Wrath territory relatively easy. 

Edit: Never mind, I'm wrong again lol. It's not possible to have both unless you somehow managed to get exactly 50% HP. Quick Riposte is still useful for safely getting Byleth into Wrath territory here, though. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by LegendOfLoog

[Brandonstrong567]

I have found that going swordmaster on many units with death blow, and darting blow for females, is amazing. Quick riposte on the tanks at level 1 is also a good option if you're on NG+ but otherwise it's worth thinking about the long term. Some classes offer best in slot growths to go along with the character growth strengths. It's not a waste to train axes/flying in lectures while using swords as a swordmaster, even if you change to paladin/wyvern lord/ falco knight for end game. Which are the 3 classes you want to end as anyway (you could stay swordmaster but avoid + 10 and flying experience to get avoid 30 is useful)

 

[Silly]

21 minutes ago, Brandonstrong567 said:

I have found that going swordmaster on many units with death blow, and darting blow for females, is amazing. Quick riposte on the tanks at level 1 is also a good option if you're on NG+ but otherwise it's worth thinking about the long term. Some classes offer best in slot growths to go along with the character growth strengths. It's not a waste to train axes/flying in lectures while using swords as a swordmaster, even if you change to paladin/wyvern lord/ falco knight for end game. Which are the 3 classes you want to end as anyway (you could stay swordmaster but avoid + 10 and flying experience to get avoid 30 is useful)

 

If you're doing this I honestly prefer Assassin over Swordmaster by a lot.

Swordmaster growths only average out to one extra point of strength compared to Assassin over the course of ten levels, which is technically a small advantage, but doesn't matter too much in the long term. (There are other stat differences but they matter even less than the one strength does.) Ultimately, after you reclass out of Swordmaster/Assassin to your master class, there isn't too much of a difference.

While you're spending your ten levels as a Swordmaster or an Assassin, however, you have the following notable differences, which I think makes Assassin more preferable. Swordmaster has +2 Str, -1 Spd over Assassin statistically, so you're slightly stronger but slower. Assassin has +1 movement and completely ignores terrain penalties, so it is much more mobile on many maps. Assassin also has a bow proficiency, which is important. Sword proficiency is not something that most characters want to actively be building, since it doesn't really translate well to any of the best endgame classes. However, Bow proficiency is actually useful, since Bows are relatively important on Maddening and high Bow proficiency translates well to Bow Knight. Compared to Assassin, Swordmaster is just a lot more awkward of a class to fit into most character's class progressions because its requirements are so far out of the way.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Silly

[Shadow Mir]

21 minutes ago, Brandonstrong567 said:

I have found that going swordmaster on many units with death blow, and darting blow for females, is amazing. Quick riposte on the tanks at level 1 is also a good option if you're on NG+ but otherwise it's worth thinking about the long term. Some classes offer best in slot growths to go along with the character growth strengths. It's not a waste to train axes/flying in lectures while using swords as a swordmaster, even if you change to paladin/wyvern lord/ falco knight for end game. Which are the 3 classes you want to end as anyway (you could stay swordmaster but avoid + 10 and flying experience to get avoid 30 is useful)

 

Problem: this list does not factor in NG+. Second, Alert Stance+ is completely out of the way to expect to get in a non-NG+ run. Especially on Maddening.

[dragontamer]

37 minutes ago, Silly said:

If you're doing this I honestly prefer Assassin over Swordmaster by a lot. 

Swordmaster growths only average out to one extra point of strength compared to Assassin over the course of ten levels, which is technically a small advantage, but doesn't matter too much in the long term. (There are other stat differences but they matter even less than the one strength does.) Ultimately, after you reclass out of Swordmaster/Assassin to your master class, there isn't too much of a difference.

While you're spending your ten levels as a Swordmaster or an Assassin, however, you have the following notable differences, which I think makes Assassin more preferable. Swordmaster has +2 Str, -1 Spd over Assassin statistically, so you're slightly stronger but slower. Assassin has +1 movement and completely ignores terrain penalties, so it is much more mobile on many maps. Assassin also has a bow proficiency, which is important. Sword proficiency is not something that most characters want to actively be building, since it doesn't really translate well to any of the best endgame classes. However, Bow proficiency is actually useful, since Bows are relatively important on Maddening and high Bow proficiency translates well to Bow Knight. Compared to Assassin, Swordmaster is just a lot more awkward of a class to fit into most character's class progressions because its requirements are so far out of the way. 

 

I was theorycrafting some Axebreaker builds, and Assassin's "stealth" skill is counterproductive when you're trying to avoid-tank enemies. You want more enemies trying to hit you, not ignoring you. Mortal Savant would be nice, but IIRC it has lower class-speed than Swordmaster, and the A-reason requirement is out of reach for most potential sword dodge-tanks (ex: Petra, Catherine).

 

I'm going to have to take a long, hard look at Swordmaster, and see if it is a reasonable endgame class. 5 movement sucks, but the stats on Swordmaster are actually quite decent from my memory. Alert-stance very well could be on a Swordmaster after all, you don't necessarily have to go flying (and footlocked will give you many more battalions to potentially +Avoid). It might be reasonable to go Swordmaster into endgame...

 

Endgame maps are big, and 5 movement is among the slowest for endgame (4 for Priest, but they are Physic bots and probably don't need much movement). You probably are taking some footlocked characters into endgame (Gremory, Priest, War Master), and an Axebreaker dodge tank traveling with the group is a role to play for sure. EDIT: Also: adjutants. I don't know how they work, but flying units can only have flying adjutants.  I know there's a block adjutant which is probably helpful in dodge-tanking.

Edited September 20, 2019 by dragontamer

[Brandonstrong567]

Also, most people choose a throwaway unit for dancer... you dont NEED dance if your units are all equal and powerful. Sword avoid 20, alert stance plus, thicket, sword prowess 5, and axebreaker means you'll never get hit by axes. Any of those not applying in a certain circumstance still will bring you between 35 and 80 avoid ON TOP of your speed. I'm considering Petra swordmaster without ever dancing once with her. Hate me for that all you want but many games dont have a dancer and it's not a necessity, just a neat idea. Probably overkill but certain enemies are rough even on a tank, and it works especially well if you need to draw in multiple units to your attack range when they have both mages and physical focused on the space you want, or distract units so you can split a group. 

[Shadow Mir]

9 minutes ago, Brandonstrong567 said:

Also, most people choose a throwaway unit for dancer... you dont NEED dance if your units are all equal and powerful. Sword avoid 20, alert stance plus, thicket, sword prowess 5, and axebreaker means you'll never get hit by axes. Any of those not applying in a certain circumstance still will bring you between 35 and 80 avoid ON TOP of your speed. I'm considering Petra swordmaster without ever dancing once with her. Hate me for that all you want but many games dont have a dancer and it's not a necessity, just a neat idea. Probably overkill but certain enemies are rough even on a tank, and it works especially well if you need to draw in multiple units to your attack range when they have both mages and physical focused on the space you want, or distract units so you can split a group. 

Good luck getting all those on a single unit in a non-NG+ run. You'll need it. And you may as well forget about it on Maddening. Also, needless to say, thickets aren't always available.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Brandonstrong567]

Not impossible at all on regular game without NG+. Sword a, flying a, avoid 10 from falco knight, rolls right into all of the things I mentioned. All you need is sword and flying. Easy as heck even with no or minor grinding. The original post I said, sure, not likely. But new game plus is there as an option, not a requirement. And it's an option that may be quite useful in the 4th difficulty, if not necessary. 

[Brandonstrong567]

Knowledge gem makes it much easier too. But if you feel a certain way about the game, that's your choice. 

[Shadow Mir]

4 minutes ago, Brandonstrong567 said:

Not impossible at all on regular game without NG+. Sword a, flying a, avoid 10 from falco knight, rolls right into all of the things I mentioned. All you need is sword and flying. Easy as heck even with no or minor grinding. The original post I said, sure, not likely. But new game plus is there as an option, not a requirement. And it's an option that may be quite useful in the 4th difficulty, if not necessary. 

Correction: Sword and Flying A+. Which leads into nothing in particular, as no class has those requirements. If you're trying to qualify for Falcon Knight, you also need Lance proficiency, too. Once again, I just don't see this as feasible without New Game+.

EDIT: And even if you do pull this off, odds are you'll only get to enjoy this for like what, one chapter at most? Bleh.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[LegendOfLoog]

17 minutes ago, Brandonstrong567 said:

Also, most people choose a throwaway unit for dancer... you dont NEED dance if your units are all equal and powerful. Sword avoid 20, alert stance plus, thicket, sword prowess 5, and axebreaker means you'll never get hit by axes. Any of those not applying in a certain circumstance still will bring you between 35 and 80 avoid ON TOP of your speed. I'm considering Petra swordmaster without ever dancing once with her. Hate me for that all you want but many games dont have a dancer and it's not a necessity, just a neat idea. Probably overkill but certain enemies are rough even on a tank, and it works especially well if you need to draw in multiple units to your attack range when they have both mages and physical focused on the space you want, or distract units so you can split a group. 

Your units are absolutely not going to be all equal and powerful, even on Hard. On Maddening, this is even more true. Your Lord, Byleth, and a few stand out units like Felix will always be ahead of the curve. This is assuming you're not deliberately playing suboptimally to feed XP to worse units which is a fair assumption to make. Dancers can make any one of your units have another action. Even in the literally impossible idea that your units are all equally good (they're not), a Dancer being able to make any one of them move again is more useful in a wider variety of situations than having another combat unit in their place. If you really want an Avoid Tank for some reason, there are plenty of ways to make one that do not involve wasting one of the most useful classes in the game. 

As an example, I took the average of all 12 of my units levels on BL Maddening Chapter 22 and ended up with around Level 37. This is an overly fair number because Byleth and Dimitri inflate that number with their personal abilities, but I'll run with it for now. I decided to see what Ingrid's Avoid would be at this level. I specifically chose her because she would potentially have access to Defiant Avoid as a Falcon Knight. Her Speed on Enemy Phase is 39.25 on average. Assuming she has Luin equipped, she has a base AS of 35-36. If you add +15 Lance Prowess, Avo +10 from her class, 10 Avoid from Galatea Pegasus Co, and Alert Stance+, that gives her around 100 Physical Avoid. With Defiant Avoid, she has 130, and she has about 5 less Magic Avoid at all points. I also compiled a list of Maddening Endgame stats for the chapter here. The main takeaway is that a strategy that relies on Breakers doesn't sound that important when you can get to 100 with units like Ingrid and Petra with relative ease, and as Falcon Knight, they can actually get to 0% displayed Hit for a significant number of enemies without needing Sword Avoid or Axebreaker. 

I don't really see the benefit here of Swordmaster when Falcon Knights have higher Move, higher Speed, and a better mastery ability for this strategy. You also don't waste investment on a Skill that will never be used for any of your unit's classes. I don't personally think Avoid tanks are very good when many units can outright kill enemies instead with Wrath + Vantage strats, but if you are going to do that, Swordmaster isn't the way to go imo. 

 

[Brandonstrong567]

Um... if you go myrmidon, pegasus, sword master, falco, you'll have flying lance and sword. Lots of people throw shade on Ingrid but I am glad at least one other person likes her. I use her in all my games. On game 4 now, but I didn't blitz maddening 22 yet... that sounds insane. I just like interesting builds because unless I want to do something that's a true gimp (warrior Hubert or something), I like thinking out of the box. I made Bernadetta a bow knight 3 times. Now she's a wyvern rider... just mixing it up. I didn't know this forum was full of people who are so bent out of shape so easily from simple ideas being shared. I'll know to keep my posts to myself from now on! 

[Shadow Mir]

^Sharing ideas is one thing, but if they cannot be reasonably acquired, that's a problem. And I consider that the case with what you were suggesting - I'm not going to hype a setup that I get all the components of so late its impact is minimal at best and nonexistent at worst.

[Stroud]

Overall I think that Lances are the better Dodgetank weapons (With the earliest startup). Swordbreaker also has its fair use. Not only for Dodging but also hitting. Assassins in Maddening can have around 60 Avoid. (Petra Paralog for this example). So Swordbreaker also helps in hitting them more reliably. Also Sword users are the enemies who are the most likely to hit as they can get a Hit rate of +130.

I use Ferdinand as one now and he simply does his job still well. 

But reaching Flying A+ still takes a while for me (Chapter 15). At the moment he has A (Almost A+) on Lance, B+ Axe, B Authority and B+ Flying. So I think its likely that he may get A+ in Chapter 17-18. Maybe 16 if I rush it as he is almost A with Flying. So I think its possible to reach Flying A+ with the other requirements around Chapter 16-17 in Maddening if you manage it good.

I still found myself with Lance going for a compromise instead of Sword Avo. As I am more tempted to use Dancers in this mode. And Dorothea is by far a throw away Dancer. I just change her between the classes depending on what I feel I need the most. 

 

 

 

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Someome who can ORKO with a training sword and take a few hits like Catherine definitely belongs to the best. 

That said the only S tier characters for me are Byleth and Catherine with a huge gap to the rest honestly. 

[Brandonstrong567]

I hadn't thought of ferdinand as a dodge tanker. I like him as paladin/ fortress/ great knight depending on the situation because with duscur heavy soldiers (or similar if using NG+ restrictions on non BL) and ochain shield, he can have high speed AND high tank, plus a heal to boot. But resisting attacks all together is a nice niche with his personal skill. I'll consider that route next time for him. Thanks for input everyone.

[leesangstar10]

Tier is ordered

This is a general tier list not a LTC or route specific. I tried to be as non bias as possible. This consist of theory crafting/discussions from this forum. If there is something you disagree with tell me :). Also take this with a grain of salt since this is still a new game.

Rating criteria:

1. This is Classic Maddening Mode. Not new game plus. So no using renown to get class mastery skills etc
2. I WILL consider the skills/art units can get as they class change or level their weapon skills. Ex. Getting death blow from brigand along the way to wyvern lord
3. Availability for student is based on the house they are from. I did this because students outside your house availability can vary based on your Byleth’s skill level. This balances things out and will make it less complicated. Ex. Will not consider Hilda’s late available recruitment option in church route. However, I will consider Alois’s very late recruitment since he is recruited late in all routes.
4. I will also consider late game recruitment since xp is more scarce
5. Will consider the investment into the unit. Like how hard it is to reach the minimum certification requirement for a certain class. Ex. Difficulty of getting Dorothea to a dark knight since she is bad at riding and neutral in lance.
6. Canto/mount is broken. This will affect a unit’s rating a lot.
7. Optimal plays. No luck based strats using divine pulse or killing one enemy each turn.
8. Crest, Hero relic, and sacred weapons.

Factors not considered:

1. Team synergy
2. Dancer class change. Anybody can be a dancer and can be really good.
3. Grinding and new game plus features. Can make any unit good/broken

 

S tier:

Byleth: has one of the best and early access to a hero relic with great growth rates. Great reclass option with his unique class and flier class. Female is better than male due to pegasus reclass option.

Claude: a broken flyer with a broken hero relic 

Edelgard: Best class is actually wyvern lord. Her combat art is kinda like gale force hence making it possible to cheese maps.

A+ tier:

Petra: Serve as early game flier with good growths. Broken base stats late recruited. Easy access to great late game classes

Ditmitri: Easily the best bow knight in the game. Great growths, bases, and weapon.

Catherine: Broken the moment you get her. Makes the mid game a joke. Reclass her to a pegasus knight and later falcon knight and she will be relevant all the way through.

Dedue: Almost a must early game. Great bulk and offense. Will fall behind eventually, but can be Ditmitri’s permanent adjutant.

Mercedes: Best healer. Decent growths, base and great utility. Good for cross recruiting if you need an extra healer.

A tier:

Leonie: Good personal, growths, low investment, can become early game cav and provide stride. Great for late cross recruitment. Can easily be later promoted to bow knight despite late recruitment.

Lysithea: is amazing with the hero relic and best reliable way to kill the death knight. Best offensive mage.

Ingrid: Serve as early game flier with decent growths. Decent bases when recruited late. Tier below than Petra due to worse bases late recruited.

Shamir: Good prepromote with decent personal. Low investment and really helps mid game. Kinda falls off later. Great bases.

Seteth: Great flyer with good combat art, growths, and starting class. Late availability hurts

Felix: Great early game due to skill and stats. Can become a great bow knight. Late recruiting hurts due to it being hard to premote to good master class despite amazing bases.

Raphael: Dedue but worse. Great bulk and can tank a lot early game.

Linhardt: Best staff/faith magic utility. Can use warp and use physics. He can use gambits to make up the lack of not having an AOE healing spell. Offensively really decent too.

Marianna: Early game healer. Can get physics early. Other faith spells tbh r pretty bad. Good reason spell list.

B+ tier:

Hilda: Good axe user with great hero relic. Can be early game pegasus. Bad in authority doesn’t hurt as much since flier batallions are limited. But still great unit.

Sylvain and Ferdinand:  Lol similar design and growth rates. These two are very similar since they both will end up as great knights or wyvern lords(personally think you should do wyvern). Provide early game high mobility and could great stride users.

Dorothea: Average growths, but has access to great reason spells and physics making her pretty good. Tier lower than Marianna due to bad in faith initially so can’t get physics as early.

Ashe: Has class flexibility with becoming bow knight or wyvern lord. Decent in bow classes

Bernie: Same level when it come to bow knight with Ashe. Easier time becoming bow knight and better personal

B tier:

Ignatz: Worse than Ashe and Bernie due to low flexibility. Might move him next to Ashe and Bernie maybe.

Lorenz: Have potential to be an enemy phase unit. Has decent bulk. Average in offense growths.

Cyril: Basically he screams needing lots of investment. Has potential to be good, but there are basically better units with less investments.  Leonie is basically the same as Cyril as a bow knight (they both have 40% str and 60% spd but Leonie comes earlier) and Seteth when he joins you will have similar stats but with no investment and good personal skill. Still can become a solid bow knight or wyvern lord.

Gilbert, Alois: Bulk has become more important. Will require investment for good end game class.

Flayn: Great staff/faith magic utility. It is about the same as Linhardt, except she requires much more investment. Still rescue is nice to save the green units and could help move units that are behind forward. Still the investment cost makes her below Linhardt.

C+ tier:

Caspar: Just decent/average all across the board. He can be a good wyvern lord but will require lots of investment. War master is decent and their class mastery skill is amazing, but at that point, you will be mostly finished with the game. Bad proficiencies in bows and authority lowers unit placement.

Hubert: A worse Lorenz imo. His offensive capabilities is better but Lorenz has the staff that gives him +2 range. Also Lorenz is easier to promote as a dark knight and better bulk. Still solid unit. 

Annette: Her spell options aren't that good. Terrible faith spells and decent/alright reason. Hero relic is blue lion locked, making her even worse in other routes in other routes. (I am still judging this from all routes, only availability is route based). Has the worst spd out of the mage students. She can provide rally utility but only good early.

Manuala: Good staff/faith magic utility with warp. Unfortunately she is a big investment for her master class Gremory, Holy Knight, or Falcon Knight. Meh bases and bad availability.

C tier:

Hanneman: A worse Dorothea. Has similar spell list but with no physics and meteor is A+ reason, comes much later, and his spd growth is trash 20%. Still his thoron use and meteor is useful.

[Shadow Mir]

3 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Lysithea: is amazing with the hero relic and best reliable way to kill the death knight. Best offensive mage.

Erm, doesn't the DK have the Rafail Gem on Maddening?

[Stroud]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Erm, doesn't the DK have the Rafail Gem on Maddening?

In the chapter 4,6,8 he does not have it. In chapter 12 I don't know anymore. After Timeskip it depends on if you clear Caspar and Mercedes Paralogue. (Logically). 
At least I don't remember seeing it on him. But it could be because of the Paralogue. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Stroud

[LegendOfLoog]

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Ditmitri: Easily the best bow knight in the game. Great growths, bases, and weapon.

Bow Knight is a good class, but that isn't the reason Dimitri is great imo. Inherent Wrath + Vantage through Battalion skills is utterly ridiculous, and he's the only unit in the game who has that combination. On Maddening, investing into Neutrals or Weakness is less optimal because of the reduced weekly XP, and Dimitri just so happens to have a pretty great set of Strengths. Lances and Riding make him an easy choice for Paladin, the highest Move Advanced Class out there. His strength in Authority is also fantastic for getting his Battalion skills, and if you tutor it and set it as a goal, you can get the combo as early as Chapter 8. Soon after, you get Retribution from a D rank Battalion, effectively nullifying the advantage he gets from having Bow range on Enemy Phase. From this point onward, he can use a Killer Lance+ and reach really high levels of Crit that the other two Lords will not. In my opinion, this more than makes up for him not being a flier, and with his extremely high Strength growth, he can pretty much oneshot anything on Enemy Phase without taking any damage. He honestly belongs in S tier just off of how hard he carries the late game on this difficulty. 

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Raphael: Dedue but worse. Great bulk and can tank a lot early game.

Ehhh, I dunno about this placement. "Great bulk" isn't that accurate since he has the same base Defense as Dimitri and only 2 more HP. The reason Dedue is so bulky is because of his personal which Raph does not have. He's taking 5 more damage per physical hit than Dedue is at base, which I would not consider great tanking imo considering that's a third of his HP bar as he's always doubled. His Speed ensures that he probably won't even be able to tank that long as he has one of the worst Speed growths in the game. And enemies are so fast as the game goes on that the Wyvern class isn't enough to fix his Spd. I would probably knock him down to B as he's a closer analogue to Gilbert as the super slow unit who's salvaged by Wyvern Rider. 

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Ingrid: Serve as early game flier with decent growths. Decent bases when recruited late. Tier below than Petra due to worse bases late recruited.

Just out of curiosity, how much weight is given to a student's performance as a recruit? Is it 3/4 for someone like Ingrid since she will be a recruit in 3 routes, or is it 1/2 since she's always the same as a recruit regardless of House? Anyway, decent growths is pushing it, lol. She does have great Speed, but her Strength is on par with the lame archer duo of Ashe and Bernie (Ignatz gets Rally Speed, so he's cool). Her classes don't help her there either as she either sacrifices the early game flier utility to get Death Blow or falls behind entirely in Strength to be a flier. While the Advanced Class ceritfication does help her here, it isn't really enough. In her own route, she struggles to even one round the mages on the final map, so her offensives capabilities are lacking. She even gets doubled by a significant portion of the War Masters there, so her performance in the BL route is one of the worst of her house generally. I don't really disagree with the rest here, but Ingrid should go to B+. Her performance in her own route is bad enough that she shouldn't be anywhere near Felix, one of the best units in the early game and probably the best Bow Knight as well (excluding Dimitri). 

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

 Ashe: Has class flexibility with becoming bow knight or wyvern lord. Decent in bow classes

Ashe belongs in B, maybe even C+. While he is flexible, he's also made of glass. A 20% Defense growth and 35% HP growth will not do him any favors even with Wyvern bases. His early game is ok because he comes with Curved Shot, but as a main combat unit, he's very much lacking in BL. He also lacks the good qualities of Ingrid when late recruited, and he should pretty much be benched at the earliest opportunity. All of what I said about him should apply to Bernie as well, but I think she at least has a better early than him because of her personal. They're both not worthy of being in the same tier as Hilda or Ferdinand/Sylvain though. And on that note, Ignatz is better than both Ashe and Bernie because he has Rally Speed, and they do not. None of them are impressive combat wise, but he actually has some good utility to back him up. I don't know if I'd say he's a whole tier better, but he's definitely more important to the team than they are. 

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

 Lorenz: Have potential to be an enemy phase unit. Has decent bulk. Average in offense growths.

His bases are average across the board as are his growths. If he goes Cav, his Speed gets really bad. His most reasonable option is Mage -> Warlock -> Dark Knight, but his Speed is not particularly great, and neither is his magic. His reason spells aren't anything to really write home about either except for Agnea's Arrow, and he will only double slow enemies. He's too average at everything to be good at anything as he's outclassed pretty much in every way by another unit. He's not tanky, he's not fast, and he's not strong. He's perfectly mediocre, so I think he belongs to C+ tier. 

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Flayn: Great staff/faith magic utility. It is about the same as Linhardt, except she requires much more investment. Still rescue is nice to save the green units and could help move units that are behind forward. Still the investment cost makes her below Linhardt.

Great is a major exaggeration, imo. As far as I'm aware, Rescue's range is Magic/4 rounded down which is pretty harsh. Flayn's Magic stat when she joins is somewhere around 12-14 iirc, and she has a 55% growth in it. She doesn't even have Rescue at base, and she doesn't gain any sort of ranged healing until A rank in Faith, and it's Fortify. Lindhart's Physic + Warp is far better than Rescue + Fortify for Flayn, so I don't think they're even comparable. Generally, Stride and high Movement is more than enough to save green units, so I find Rescue's main usage is for repositioning your own. However, the poor range of it is very limiting. Combine this with her poor performance at base, and she belongs in C+ tier honestly, maybe even C. 

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Hubert: A worse Lorenz imo. His offensive capabilities is better but Lorenz has the staff that gives him +2 range. Also Lorenz is easier to promote as a dark knight and better bulk. Still solid unit. 

Anyone can use a Relic. If they have a Crest, they take no damage. If they don't, they take 10 per attack with it equipped iirc. If they have the matching crest, then they may gain some benefit for that. The only advantages Lorenz has over Hubert in Thrysus equipping is not taking damage with it and the occasional Aegis/Pavise. The +2 range is universal. The other points are true enough, but your mages shouldn't really be taking damage anyway. I don't think I'd move Hubert, but he has better Magic and Speed growths than Lorenz along with 5 more Magic at base. They're not all that different, really. 

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

 Annette: Her spell options aren't that good. Terrible faith spells and decent/alright reason. Hero relic is blue lion locked, making her even worse in other routes in other routes. (I am still judging this from all routes, only availability is route based). Has the worst spd out of the mage students. She can provide rally utility but only good early.

I think you're underrating Rally utility quite a bit here. The early part of the game is the one that's actually difficult. So if someone is good earlygame but mediocre lategame, they are much better than someone who is mediocre earlygame but good lategame. She also happens to have the best combination of Rallies in Strength and Speed, something no other unit will have reasonably, and she has it as early as Chapter 4. Her base speed is 7 just like all of the other mage students, and she has the lightest and most accurate tome out of all of them. No one is doubling in the earlygame, and honestly, most of your magic units won't be doubling in the lategame either, so her being slow is mostly irrelevant. She has a Strength in Axes, so she's fairly easy to make a Wyvern, giving you a flier with Rally Speed and Strength. Her Speed is  entirely irrelevant with the Lightning Axe Combat Art as well. As a Level 20 Wyvern, she should have access to Axefaire, a Magic Staff, and Fiendish Blow. Going Monk -> Mage, she has 21.5 Magic on average at Level 20 and 10.45 Res. A Silver Axe+ has 17 Mt. The calc looks like this:

• Fiendish(6) + Staff(3) + Faire(5) + Magic(21.5) + Axe Mt(17) + 30% of Res(3.14) = 55.64 Magic Atk

This is more damage in one hit than any of your other mages will be doing, and it's on a flier who can also Rally when necessary. And since most mages are too squishy to fight on Enemy Phase anyway, it really doesn't matter if they do more damage there because they'll probably die from a strong breeze hitting them. Saying that she's only good early is just not true, and while the usefulness of her Rallies fall off a bit in the midgame, they become relevant again with all of the high AS enemies approaching the endgame. She doesn't need Crusher to be good. It's nice, sure, but her main strengths are in her Rallies and her one-shot potential in comparison to the other mages. In comparison, your other mages will be stuck on the ground at 4 Move for a significant portion of the game. I'll concede that she's not a good late recruit because she can't go Wyvern in that case, but her usefulness in the early BL and as an early recruit for her Rallies are more than enough to put her above Hubert and Lorenz, two mediocre mages with significantly lower utility. I would put Annette at B+ for her Rallies and actually being a pretty good magic flier, but at the very least, she's better than Caspar and Manuela lol. 

I mostly agree with everything else. It does look kind of weird with Hanneman just hanging out alone in the C tier, but he is pretty bad, I guess. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by LegendOfLoog

[Cysx]

On 9/19/2019 at 9:39 PM, LegendOfLoog said:

If we're specifically talking about Byleth here, I imagine they could get an S decently fast through Advanced Training in Part Two. Specifically for Axes, chances are you have at least a few Wyvern Lord units sitting around that can help tutor Byleth, and if not, Alois and Seteth can help as well. If we're considering that Byleth will already have the Knowledge Gem to build up their class mastery, it seems very reasonable to have at least one S rank. 

Took me the entire game to reach A+ riding with Byleth, and it was my one focus. So S on another neutral, even with one more teacher post-timeskip I doubt is reasonably possible. The biggest problem being that the ranks you really want help for are A and beyond, which the students may not reach in time to help you.

On 9/19/2019 at 9:03 PM, Silly said:

You have slightly reduced weapon exp on Maddening

Do you? I only heard about the reduced weekly exp.

5 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Petra: Serve as early game flier with good growths. Broken base stats late recruited.

... that doesn't seem to add up? She goes for thief naturally, right? Granted the enemy growths for thief are good, but they're not incredibly better than everything else. Especially not peg in the case of Ingrid.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Cysx

[Silly]

4 hours ago, Cysx said:

Do you? I only heard about the reduced weekly exp.

That's what I'm referring to. The reduced weekly study exp translates to about -24 weapon exp each month (assuming an about three weeks per month).

4 hours ago, Cysx said:

... that doesn't seem to add up? She goes for thief naturally, right? Granted the enemy growths for thief are good, but they're not incredibly better than everything else. Especially not peg in the case of Ingrid.

Compared to Ingrid, Petra's chapter 11 recruit stats are:

-3 HP, +2 Str, -5 Mag, +5 Dex, +2 Spd, +1 Lck, -3 Def, -17 Res

So slightly better offensively, slightly worse defensively on the physical side, a lot worse against mages. Also relevant is that Ingrid's default focus is Lances + Swords, while Petra's is Axes + Swords, so late recruit Petra has a really easy time going Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord due to her base axe rank, whereas Ingrid is likely stuck as Pegasus for another ten levels before going Falcon Knight.

[Cysx]

26 minutes ago, Silly said:

That's what I'm referring to. The reduced weekly study exp translates to about -24 weapon exp each month (assuming an about three weeks per month).

More like -12, right? Unless you're talking of normal -> maddening. Hard mode already had a -4 malus, maddening pushes it 4 points further down.

26 minutes ago, Silly said:

Compared to Ingrid, Petra's chapter 11 recruit stats are:

-3 HP, +2 Str, -5 Mag, +5 Dex, +2 Spd, +1 Lck, -3 Def, -17 Res

So slightly better offensively, slightly worse defensively on the physical side, a lot worse against mages. Also relevant is that Ingrid's default focus is Lances + Swords, while Petra's is Axes + Swords, so late recruit Petra has a really easy time going Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord due to her base axe rank, whereas Ingrid is likely stuck as Pegasus for another ten levels before going Falcon Knight.

I think those are pretty comparable statlines tbh, since 17 res is bad but class changing will fix it by quite a bit. Otherwise that is fair enough, but late-recruit characters are much less impressive without blows, meaning you likely want to put Petra through Bandit instead of going straight to Wyvern, on paper anyway. If you don't, I don't think she's that remarkable.