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Fire Emblem Three Houses Unit Tier Lists

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2 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The issue with Poison Strike is that it only makes you better at chipping. As you note, it's not relevant if you're killing in one hit without it, and it's also not relevant if you're finishing off an enemy who has already taken some damage (and notably the game provides a major mechanic, gambits, which tend to lower the HP of some enemies a bit and create this scenario).

In the example given, is Lorenz better than Lysithea at chipping? Sure, but only a little. Leaving an enemy with only 13 HP is better than leaving them with 17, though not that much because most other units can finish off a unit with 17 HP (maybe not a low-str Curved Shot or something like that). So his advantage here is marginal, and I don't think Poison Strike was a good investment just to improve his chipping ability a bit.

Additionally, I'd say that the most important aspect of a chipping character is not their raw damage, but their range. Generally, any decent chip is going to lower enemy HP enough that someone else will be able to finish them. Thus, the most valuable chipping is that which can be done at longer range, and at this niche, Lorenz is outclassed by units with Thoron such as Marianne, Dorothea, and Hanneman.

In general I think the Dark Mage / Dark Bishop line is very poor for units like Lorenz. Poison Strike is outclassed by Fiendish Blow because the latter helps secure kills while the former does not, and Dark Bishop does not provide Black Tomefaire which black mages like Lorenz would very much like, unlike Warlock.

I wouldn't exactly call consistently leaving enemies with 1-9 hp "chipping. Also, again, in my playthrough he CAN delete some enemies as well with Ragnarok or Agnea's Arrow or doubling.

Again, if we assume optimal play we also pick up Fiendish Blow from Mage on the way to Dark Knight. This is not hard to do in Maddening NG, I had them both relatively early. It's normal for me that my magical units will master both Bishop and Mage so it's basically the same thing.

 

Dark Knight gets black tomefaire. He gets into Dark Knight easier than any other magical unit besides Hubert; this is part of what makes him good. Canto is just as good as range in many instances, and I always give him Caduceus (Dorothea benefits more from a Magical Staff imo). I think he's the best candidate for it. I don't like to sacrifice Thyrsus for him, but that'd help him a lot of course.

 

Maybe, however, you have a point about switching him to Warlock after mastering Dark Bishop. I do like heartseeker but you may be onto something about mastering DB, then reclassing to Warlock for Black Tomefaire and 2x spells... Still, ultimately imo he's best in Dark Knight. He'd be amazing if you could get Indra's Arrow for him, but you can't (not really, even though it's in a late GD chapter) so oh well.

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2 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

I think we'll have to disagree on how difficult it is to kill the Death Knight. Yes, it's hard as hell the first few times but it does become easier over time. And if we are assuming "optimal play" (as another poster suggested) then we should assume the player is capable enough to kill the death knight with relative ease. Planning ahead to get Dark Spikes is a perfectly viable strategy!

Bold: IF you started with the Golden Deer. Otherwise you need to recruit Lysithea first, since Hubert is the only other unit that gets it, he doesn't get it until A, and he's only usable on one route.

2 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Ah, but the thing is you don't have to run him as a jack of all trades. Make him a specialist and he'll do well; his stats ime fall into line (less str and more mag) if you do this. The newb mistake is to try to use him both as a physical and magical attacker.

Even if I did aim to use him as a mage, he'd just end up in the shadow of the other mages the game gives me. Forever. It doesn't help that he has the misfortune of being in the same house as Lysithea. And even if I was leading one of the other houses and recruited him, the mages in those other houses would eclipse him. He just cannot win no matter what I do.

2 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

The amount of resources (tea times, stat boosters, dance lessons (not even really a  resource per se) you have to put into Linhardt to get him to win the contest is minimal imo as compared to the  benefits. Also, it's good to use the free +5 from dance lessons to fix a unit like Linny with low charisma in case you want to put a damaging gambit on him (which is sometimes a good option in Maddening NG).

I don't count the dance lesson. But most of the units who I'd pick for my dancer would only need the dance lesson or would have the charm to not need it (though I'd do it anyway).

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: IF you started with the Golden Deer. Otherwise you need to recruit Lysithea first, since Hubert is the only other unit that gets it, he doesn't get it until A, and he's only usable on one route.

Even if I did aim to use him as a mage, he'd just end up in the shadow of the other mages the game gives me. Forever. It doesn't help that he has the misfortune of being in the same house as Lysithea. And even if I was leading one of the other houses and recruited him, the mages in those other houses would eclipse him. He just cannot win no matter what I do.

I don't count the dance lesson. But most of the units who I'd pick for my dancer would only need the dance lesson or would have the charm to not need it (though I'd do it anyway).

Hubie is also useable on SS. Yeah, it's not a great idea to divert a ton of exp to him over the whole game, but an argument can be made for getting Dark Spikes on him. I'm sure there are other strats too. I did SS Maddening on NG+ only though so not totally sure. On BL you can use Dmitri + Ingrid and pull it off probably (tbh I forget exactly how I did it on AM NG Maddening).

 

It's really not true that he's a shadow of the other mages though. as demonstrated, his damge output can in some contexts be higher than Lysithea's and he's the best candidate for earliest Dark Knight. Blue lions has the worst attack mags in the game, imo. Annette imo only shines as a rallybot or magical wyvern, and the latter is prohibitive to get into on Maddening NG. Mercy is a healer combo, not a true attack mage. Neither get into DK easily.

 

And again, no female mage can get poison strike which ups the damage output a LOT in maddening. Try it out, then get back. TBH I also used to bench Lorenz but I've changed my mind in recent playthroughs.

 

The dance lesson should be counted in a tier list though since it's a free +5 that everyone has access to. Even Raphael easily qualified for Dancer when I gave him the dance lesson in a joke run. If you use it on Linhardt instead of a naturally high charm unit, then instead of adding extra charm to an already decent charm unit, you're giving yourself another viable gambiter since the Dancer class gives a 10% boost to charm growth. That's a pretty good deal.

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19 minutes ago, Mjolnir said:

Hubie is also useable on SS. Yeah, it's not a great idea to divert a ton of exp to him over the whole game, but an argument can be made for getting Dark Spikes on him. I'm sure there are other strats too. I did SS Maddening on NG+ only though so not totally sure. On BL you can use Dmitri + Ingrid and pull it off probably (tbh I forget exactly how I did it on AM NG Maddening).

 

It's really not true that he's a shadow of the other mages though. as demonstrated, his damge output can in some contexts be higher than Lysithea's and he's the best candidate for earliest Dark Knight. Blue lions has the worst attack mags in the game, imo. Annette imo only shines as a rallybot or magical wyvern, and the latter is prohibitive to get into on Maddening NG. Mercy is a healer combo, not a true attack mage. Neither get into DK easily.

 

And again, no female mage can get poison strike which ups the damage output a LOT in maddening. Try it out, then get back. TBH I also used to bench Lorenz but I've changed my mind in recent playthroughs.

 

The dance lesson should be counted in a tier list though since it's a free +5 that everyone has access to. Even Raphael easily qualified for Dancer when I gave him the dance lesson in a joke run. If you use it on Linhardt instead of a naturally high charm unit, then instead of adding extra charm to an already decent charm unit, you're giving yourself another viable gambiter since the Dancer class gives a 10% boost to charm growth. That's a pretty good deal.

The only other strategy that I know that would make it easy involves either leading the Blue Lions or having a female Byleth if you're not, on account of the Lance of Ruin.

With Poison Strike, which I'm not convinced is that useful, largely because - surprise, surprise - the stuff it would be most helpful against is the same shit it either is less effective against or is outright immune to it. Also, I strongly disagree with your assessment of Annette.

And why in the name of Anankos should I care about Poison Strike when the class it's tied to is disappointing for the hassle??

That is more like a rip-off than a good deal, if you ask me.

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52 minutes ago, Mjolnir said:

I wouldn't exactly call consistently leaving enemies with 1-9 hp "chipping. Also, again, in my playthrough he CAN delete some enemies as well with Ragnarok or Agnea's Arrow or doubling.

Again, if we assume optimal play we also pick up Fiendish Blow from Mage on the way to Dark Knight. This is not hard to do in Maddening NG, I had them both relatively early. It's normal for me that my magical units will master both Bishop and Mage so it's basically the same thing.

 

Dark Knight gets black tomefaire. He gets into Dark Knight easier than any other magical unit besides Hubert; this is part of what makes him good. Canto is just as good as range in many instances, and I always give him Caduceus (Dorothea benefits more from a Magical Staff imo). I think he's the best candidate for it. I don't like to sacrifice Thyrsus for him, but that'd help him a lot of course.

 

Maybe, however, you have a point about switching him to Warlock after mastering Dark Bishop. I do like heartseeker but you may be onto something about mastering DB, then reclassing to Warlock for Black Tomefaire and 2x spells... Still, ultimately imo he's best in Dark Knight. He'd be amazing if you could get Indra's Arrow for him, but you can't (not really, even though it's in a late GD chapter) so oh well.

I generally use "chipping" to mean doing any damage that is not lethal. I will try to use another term in the future when talking with you if you wish. Anyway, I don't see that much difference between leaving an enemy with 1-9 HP and leaving one with 10-19 HP... usually you'll have no trouble finishing such enemies off. In other words, almost anyone can do adequate chip damage. I don't think investing in Dark Mage to get slightly more chip damage is worth the delay in stacking Black Tomefaire with Fiendish Blow.

Dark Knight does get Black Tomefaire, yes, but not until Level 30. When I was speaking of Warlock, I was speaking of them having Black Tomefaire from Level 20-29, before Dark Knight is even available. The Mage->Warlock line stacks Fiendish Blow and Black Tomefaire during those levels, and thus will outperform a Dark Bishop by a notable amount if the mage in question has black magic (i.e. any male mage except Hubert). Obviously Dark Knight is good but the levels before it are where Warlock shines.

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35 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The only other strategy that I know that would make it easy involves either leading the Blue Lions or having a female Byleth if you're not, on account of the Lance of Ruin.

With Poison Strike, which I'm not convinced is that useful, largely because - surprise, surprise - the stuff it would be most helpful against is the same shit it either is less effective against or is outright immune to it. Also, I strongly disagree with your assessment of Annette.

And why in the name of Anankos should I care about Poison Strike when the class it's tied to is disappointing for the hassle??

That is more like a rip-off than a good deal, if you ask me.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on a few points. I just don't think it's as big of a hassle to get dark seals in Maddening NG as you do, and I think if the tier list is one for "optimal play" it should assume that the player in question feels more like me than you on that issue and presumes they're up to the challenge.

I find poison strike quite useful against a wide array of enemies. Few things will work on all units so I don't think the fact that it doesn't makes it somehow useless.

I am curious as to how you think my assessment of Annette is wrong, and how she's a better attack mage than Lorenz. I do like her as a character (and she kicks ass as a WL on NG+ w/ Holy Tomb farming for Arcane Crystals in early to mid game) but I think she ends up in the bottom spot as far as attack mages go.

Well, we are discussing but I made my statement about Linhardt as being a good candidate for dancer generally and I think it's true. It makes a lot of sense to give a unit like him who would otherwise have trouble ever getting off successful gambits a free boost, there's minimal investment needed, he's not that amazing as a support unit, he can still make full use of warp in dancer, he really only trades a bit of healing off of physic for it.

32 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I generally use "chipping" to mean doing any damage that is not lethal. I will try to use another term in the future when talking with you if you wish. Anyway, I don't see that much difference between leaving an enemy with 1-9 HP and leaving one with 10-19 HP... usually you'll have no trouble finishing such enemies off. In other words, almost anyone can do adequate chip damage. I don't think investing in Dark Mage to get slightly more chip damage is worth the delay in stacking Black Tomefaire with Fiendish Blow.

Dark Knight does get Black Tomefaire, yes, but not until Level 30. When I was speaking of Warlock, I was speaking of them having Black Tomefaire from Level 20-29, before Dark Knight is even available. The Mage->Warlock line stacks Fiendish Blow and Black Tomefaire during those levels, and thus will outperform a Dark Bishop by a notable amount if the mage in question has black magic (i.e. any male mage except Hubert). Obviously Dark Knight is good but the levels before it are where Warlock shines.

Ah, ok. Well I always think of "chip" damage as well, like the real world version: removing a relatively small part. What Lorenz does with Poison Strike is more "maiming" than chipping. 1-9 hp makes it more likely that the mob will die ime than a true chip damage, like if Ignatz doesn't have access to Hunter's Volley and can't double and doesn't crit he'll often do 0.25 - 0.33 of total hp worth of damage. That's more in line of what I think of as "chip". And sometimes multiple units need to clean up after a chip, depending After a Lorenz "maim", only one will need to IF he doesn't 1HKO or 1RKO, which again he can but just not as often as Lys.

I think the delay is small and well worth it over time. Plus you get access to Fiendish Blow in Dark Mage as a class ability to make up for it, so in fact he gains earlier access in a sense.

But I do now think you are right, and that Heartseeker isn't really worth staying in DB for (I was debating that myself since I sorta like the idea of it on Maddening since things like assassins are so hard to hit, so thanks for helping me decide!). Once he masters DB, he should reclass to Warlock until he can access DK. Dark Knight is very good for him and in general, and he just gets it so much more easily than any other mage that isn't Hubie due to having a boon in Lance and Riding.

 

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14 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Again, you cannot look just at Lorenz's base magic stat. It's not great, sure, but in many of my runs he's not been THAT far behind Lysithea and Marianne. Also, when you take him through the Dark Mage / Bishop pathway he gets up to  an extra 20% of damage on top due to Poison Strike. So when he's not one shoting (which he can do in Maddening if you get lucky with RNG and/or feed him some boosters), he's leaving enemies nearly dead (usually with 1hp with my current Lorenz). And a nearly dead enemy is basically a dead enemy. He is the only mage besides Hubert who makes any sense for the Dark Mage / Bishop classline and the only one that has access to poison strike.

Stop talking about personal experience on a certain unit's stats. We should evaluate units based on their AVERAGE performance. We don't care about how you did in your playthrough, unless you were experimenting with some kind of build.

Base magic stat is very important to look at because thats what determines a unit's early game performance, which in this case is very bad. Lorenz gets doubled by everything. He doesn't get anything that can really make up for this until B reason Ragnorock which is mid game.

Also Lorenz will always be behind Lysithea magic wise. She starts with 11 mag and has 60% mag growth rate vs Lorenz terrible base 7 mag and 40% growth rate. He's already 4 mag behind and every 10 lvls she will have 2 more magic than Lorenz(.6*10 - .4*10 = 2).

Nearly dead is not the same is dead enemy. That requires one more unit to attack that enemy. You are wasting a unit's player phase turn.

57 minutes ago, Mjolnir said:

I think the delay is small and well worth it over time. Plus you get access to Fiendish Blow in Dark Mage as a class ability to make up for it, so in fact he gains earlier access in a sense.

No you do not. You get fiendish blow as a class skill for dark bishop, which doesn't stack. Still going dark bishop isn't worth it over warlock(which you can get blacktome flaire, +5 dmg).

There's some miscommunication. I don't disagree with your idea of getting poison strike. If Lorenz already mastered mage, might as well get reclass and get another skill that could be useful for bosses. But I do think it is a niche skill. Poison strike+Lifetaker isn't as useful what other mages can provide. Annette can provide rallies, which is super useful early game possibly allowing you to possibly double. Dorothea, Marianne gets physics and thoron. Lysithea has warp. 

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2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Stop talking about personal experience on a certain unit's stats. We should evaluate units based on their AVERAGE performance. We don't care about how you did in your playthrough, unless you were experimenting with some kind of build.

Base magic stat is very important to look at because thats what determines a unit's early game performance, which in this case is very bad. Lorenz gets doubled by everything. He doesn't get anything that can really make up for this until B reason Ragnorock which is mid game.

Also Lorenz will always be behind Lysithea magic wise. She starts with 11 mag and has 60% mag growth rate vs Lorenz terrible base 7 mag and 40% growth rate. He's already 4 mag behind and every 10 lvls she will have 2 more magic than Lorenz(.6*10 - .4*10 = 2).

Nearly dead is not the same is dead enemy. That requires one more unit to attack that enemy. You are wasting a unit's player phase turn.

No you do not. You get fiendish blow as a class skill for dark bishop, which doesn't stack. Still going dark bishop isn't worth it over warlock(which you can get blacktome flaire, +5 dmg).

There's some miscommunication. I don't disagree with your idea of getting poison strike. If Lorenz already mastered mage, might as well get reclass and get another skill that could be useful for bosses. But I do think it is a niche skill. Poison strike+Lifetaker isn't as useful what other mages can provide. Annette can provide rallies, which is super useful early game possibly allowing you to possibly double. Dorothea, Marianne gets physics and thoron. Lysithea has warp. 

Good point about talking about average stats vs. an individual playthrough. Luckily for me, in this instance I am basically talking about a Lorenz with average magic who's been fed +2.5in mag boosters, which is almost exactly what happened in my game! At level 24, according to this calculator, Lorenz should have  oops correction: 21.6 magic if he goes the class progression I took him down. In my game, I fed him one +2 booster and got lucky with RNG to the tune of 2pts. I think he's worth the bump up, since Lys will 1HKO most things without help, and Marianne doesn't need it either really as she's mostly a healbot (with some support attacking thrown in sometimes). After seven playthroughs (albeit some with Lorenz benched 😉 ), this Lorenz felt like an average one to me and I wasn't too far off. So right now, my Lorenz is a bit better than an average Lorenz but not that far off,  at least at this point in the game. Some will be better, some worse of course.

While it's true that early game Lorenz gets doubled by most everything, that's also true of basically all mages so I don't see how that's a point against him specifically. All mages take a while to get off the ground, especially in the early game. The first few maps are rough on them when they're running out of spells and not being able to do much damage. As a noble with balanced stats, though, you can use Lorenz to safely sweep up stragglres if you don't put him in harm's way with his lance and Tempest Lance. He's helped a lot in the first few maps by this utility, which is better than any other mage other than Hubert.

My argument for Lorenz doesn't so much center around Lifetaker (I agree that it's a bit nerfed, which is too bad but it's ok in a pinch sometimes) as it does around Poison Strike + easiest entry into Dark Knight for access to canto, black tomefaire, move +1, etc.

I've never been so fond of rallybots in this game and while it's true Annette and other rallybots are useful in early game, they do drop off in later game. And isn't this the same as what you were criticizing Lorenz's maim damage for earlier? You said: "That requires one more unit to attack that enemy. You are wasting a unit's player phase turn". So doesn't rallying require basically the same thing? "Wasting" a unit's player phase turn? Why isn't it considered a waste when it's a rally that helps another unit get a kill vs. a maiming that does? Because rally might help on enemy phase in some situations I guess? But in Maddening NG you don't want to be getting enemy phased by more than one and two max so I don't think it's that big of a difference really. It's also safer and easier to control to maim first than to rely on rallies I think.

 

While it's true he'll always lag Lys mag wise, he can make up for that in many situations with Poison Strike, as demonstrated above. I don't agree that maiming an enemy is useless in NG Maddening. Maybe in Hard mode sure, but in NG Maddening even Byleth will be doing maim or even chip damage sometimes. Is Byleth useless?

And ah yes, my bad on misremebering which class got fiendish blow as a class skill. It doesn't matter too much though since he should always get it from mage anyway.

I agree that Dorothea and Marianne having physic is very useful. But Dorothea has the same exact mag growth as Lorenz, no access to poison strike to make up for it, and a bane in riding. in a Maddening NG run she's not getting on a horse. Marianne has a boon in riding, a hidden talent in lances, and better mag growth, true, but in ideal play imo she is best use primarily as a healbot with some attacking thrown in if she has a spare turn with no one that needs healing. You sacrifice a lot by using Marianne as primarily an attacker, and again she doesn't have access to poison strike. Also, a 50% growth vs. a 40% growth certainly can add up but it's an average of 1pt per ten levels of difference.

Edited by Mjolnir

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3 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on a few points. I just don't think it's as big of a hassle to get dark seals in Maddening NG as you do, and I think if the tier list is one for "optimal play" it should assume that the player in question feels more like me than you on that issue and presumes they're up to the challenge.

I find poison strike quite useful against a wide array of enemies. Few things will work on all units so I don't think the fact that it doesn't makes it somehow useless.

I am curious as to how you think my assessment of Annette is wrong, and how she's a better attack mage than Lorenz. I do like her as a character (and she kicks ass as a WL on NG+ w/ Holy Tomb farming for Arcane Crystals in early to mid game) but I think she ends up in the bottom spot as far as attack mages go.

Well, we are discussing but I made my statement about Linhardt as being a good candidate for dancer generally and I think it's true. It makes a lot of sense to give a unit like him who would otherwise have trouble ever getting off successful gambits a free boost, there's minimal investment needed, he's not that amazing as a support unit, he can still make full use of warp in dancer, he really only trades a bit of healing off of physic for it.

I still think the reward is far outweighed by the risk (like I said, I don't think the Dark Mage and Dark Bishop classes are so great as to warrant risking units over).

I don't see it unless Poison Strike routinely turns a non-fatal hit into a fatal one.

Because from where I'm standing, Lorenz doesn't hold a candle to her - she has 4 base mag over him, and second, he has no utility of note. Third, I don't see Wyvern as legitimate for Annette when her weapons of choice have poor accuracy and lose durability even on missed attacks.

And I think it's false. And that you're grasping at straws.

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

I still think the reward is far outweighed by the risk (like I said, I don't think the Dark Mage and Dark Bishop classes are so great as to warrant risking units over).

I don't see it unless Poison Strike routinely turns a non-fatal hit into a fatal one.

Because from where I'm standing, Lorenz doesn't hold a candle to her - she has 4 base mag over him, and second, he has no utility of note. Third, I don't see Wyvern as legitimate for Annette when her weapons of choice have poor accuracy and lose durability even on missed attacks.

And I think it's false. And that you're grasping at straws.

Are we talking about Iron Man tiers? Maybe then Dark Seals aren't the best idea, but you can always reset if something goes wrong and you lose a unit. I haven't lost one to him in ages though. Assuming ideal play, Dark Seals aren't  that hard to get.

Poison strike helps ensure a kill via a second unit if he doesn't just delete (which is a possibility we have to keep in mind).

Her 4 base magic isn't that much. Lorenz has Ward and Recover. Ward can be useful in many situations, as can Recover. I realize Annette also has Recover but she lacks ward. Her rallybot utility is nice but falls off after early game.

Seems like we're going to have to agree to disagree then since "I think that's false" without supporting evidence isn't much of an argument!

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Lorenz talk:

On 11/11/2019 at 8:09 PM, AxelVDP said:

As I did not want to spread bullshit, I did some calculations

first of all, here are the stats of the various students who will likely want to be mages at various different levels (assuming 1-5 commoner/noble, 5-10 monk, 10-20 mage):

(I ignored the 5% charm growth as a noble that commoners don't get in order to make the calcs easier on me, should not make any difference anyway)

  Reveal hidden contents

4EaAiFU.png

and here are some practical numbers: (I  already added the 2 extra dmg from Lorenz's personal skill in the image) (dmg is just mag+spell mt+bonuses from personal skills)

  Reveal hidden contents

Tq2O355.png

as you can see, I was not wrong in my earlier post.

Under level 20 only Lysithea can do more dmg than him, and past level 20 he still is in the top3 of most damaging mages. All of this while being more accurate than both Lysithea and Hubert, his only 2 real competitors.

If you included Frozen Lance (which you should be using) in the calcs, he would look even better, even moreso at earlier levels.

As far as speed goes, they all basically have the same AS.
Damage on weaker spells is not really important, if they double (aka: against armored units) they kill even if weak, if they don't kill, they deal similar chip dmg.

Yes, he lacks utility, but as a pure damage dealer mage there hardly are better options, also, compared to the other mages, Lorenz has some semblance of bulk, meaning he can actually be used even on enemy phase if the situation calls for it, adding some bit of flexibility in your strategies.

tl;dr: Lorenz is an Ok unit (especially in-house, I personally would not train him outside of golden deer since you either lose him for some chapters or are already over saturated with magical units), and one of the best dammage dealing mages out there (I'd argue top 3 in the game, behind Hubert and about tied with Lysithea) (he lacks utility tough) and the only mage that can be used aggressively on the frontlines.
I discuss this further in other posts, were you so interested to check them out.

Dark Mage / Dark Bishop are both pretty shit classes though. especially Dark Mage, poison strike utility is pretty bad, with mages you already either one round or nearly kill every enemy, only instance of poison strike being somewhat relevant would be against demonic beasts.

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10 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Are we talking about Iron Man tiers? Maybe then Dark Seals aren't the best idea, but you can always reset if something goes wrong and you lose a unit. I haven't lost one to him in ages though. Assuming ideal play, Dark Seals aren't  that hard to get.

No. I just think other than two very specific methods (or just stealing them), getting Dark Seals is an extremely high-risk endeavor, and the reward is very mediocre for all the hassle.

11 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Poison strike helps ensure a kill via a second unit if he doesn't just delete (which is a possibility we have to keep in mind).

Even though the second unit might have already been able to kill without it? Sure, that's helpful... 

11 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Her 4 base magic isn't that much. Lorenz has Ward and Recover. Ward can be useful in many situations, as can Recover. I realize Annette also has Recover but she lacks ward. Her rallybot utility is nice but falls off after early game.

Ward? You mean the thing that I could easily replicate with Pure Water? People don't give Ashe much credit just because he has free Lockpick, you know. So why should I give Lorenz credit for something else that's also easily replicatable with an item? Also, he gets it at B rank.

11 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Seems like we're going to have to agree to disagree then since "I think that's false" without supporting evidence isn't much of an argument!

Long story short, I feel Linhardt needs too much resources to not be shit with offensive gambits, and to win the dance competition.

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

No. I just think other than two very specific methods (or just stealing them), getting Dark Seals is an extremely high-risk endeavor, and the reward is very mediocre for all the hassle.

Even though the second unit might have already been able to kill without it? Sure, that's helpful... 

Ward? You mean the thing that I could easily replicate with Pure Water? People don't give Ashe much credit just because he has free Lockpick, you know. So why should I give Lorenz credit for something else that's also easily replicatable with an item? Also, he gets it at B rank.

Long story short, I feel Linhardt needs too much resources to not be shit with offensive gambits, and to win the dance competition.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the ease of getting Dark Seals. I think it would present a problem on an Iron  Man run, but it's not that hard even on NG Maddening imo.

We will also have to agree to disagree on Linny's viability as an offensive gambit user. Again, I think the investment is trivial. He's currently my highest lv. character at 31 and has 27cha, on par with Claude who at lv. 30 has 28cha. I think it's very useful to take a unit who would otherwise not be able to get off offensive gambits and make them into one that reliably can instead of taking a unit with already high cha and driving that cha into the sky. There's a point past which added cha is a bit redundant.

In Maddening NG chip and maim damage can certainly be useful. Again, even Byleth will do chip or maim sometimes in some circumstances (I just got through ch. 13 and she was chipping and maiming there). Is Byleth useless?

I never want to replace an inventory slot with an item if it can be at all helped past very early game. I did put elixers, concoctions etc on most for ch. 13, but that's a special circumstance. If I can avoid toting it around, I will. Pure water is an annoying clutter when you could have a weapon that might be more useful there imo.

One other thing that I have totally neglected to bring up about Lorenz is that his personal skill gives +2 damage when he has a battalion equipped, which he always will past the first few chapters. +2damage is nothing to sneeze at, and is part of why he like Lys is often able to one shot enemies. That was a major oversight on my part.

 

So re: Annette he is outdamaging her when comparing their basic spells.

Comparing the average Lorenz to the average Anette at level 24 we get Lorenz with 21mag and Annette with 27. The damage forumals are as follows:

((magic + might) + (up to 20% of max hp if you have poison strile))  - resistance 

27 + 2 - 6 = 23

(21 + 3 + 9) - 6 = 27 + 2 from Distinguished house = 29

The might of wind is 2, the might of fire is 3. Lorenz is out damaging her by 4pts due to poison strike, but then add in his personal and he's hitting for 6 more damage. Granted, she is perhaps more likely to double due to her spells generally being lower in WT but even that is questionable because Lorenz has decent str growth to make up for his slightly heavier spells. He also has a slightly better speed growth (40 vs. 35). And even mages sometimes have trouble doubling on Maddening NG depending on the mob.

 

He outdamages her due to poison strike and his personal, despite his lower average mag stat, and get gets on horse much easier. He's a better attack mage. She's a far better rallybot.

Edited by Mjolnir

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3 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

Lorenz talk:

tl;dr: Lorenz is an Ok unit (especially in-house, I personally would not train him outside of golden deer since you either lose him for some chapters or are already over saturated with magical units), and one of the best dammage dealing mages out there (I'd argue top 3 in the game, behind Hubert and about tied with Lysithea) (he lacks utility tough) and the only mage that can be used aggressively on the frontlines.

I don’t know why people seem to forget about Hanneman but he is most definitely a better damage dealing mage when compared to Lorenz, he has some of the highest magic in the game, having 20 magic at level 15 when recruited, being on par with Lysithea and Hubert and beating everyone else at same level, and he has a 55% magic growth, meaning he will only slightly be passed by Lysithea after a few levels and stay on par with Hubert. Hanneman is probably the second best offensive mage in the game, only behind Hubert, and despite Lysithea doing slightly more damage, she lacks 3 range until S rank magic whereas Hanneman and Hubert both have 3 range to compensate for slightly lower damage. (Lysithea is better though since she has utility.) Dorothea and Marriane are also better offenSive mages than Lorenz since they get Thoron for 3 range and have better magic stats than him. Lorenz could be better than Marianne since the extra 4 damage he gets from his prf and a Ferdinand adjutant, + higher mt on Ragnarok and Agneas arrow might make his lower mag less important, but he wont be doing more damage than Dorothea.


there have been like 3 pages on exclusively Lorenz so who wants to talk about some other units, like Ignatz or Alois.

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1 hour ago, Mjolnir said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the ease of getting Dark Seals. I think it would present a problem on an Iron  Man run, but it's not that hard even on NG Maddening imo.

That does jack shit to change the fact that it just ain't worth it because the classes you gain access to are just not that good. I'd rather just go to mage and get Fiendish Blow rather than waste time picking up a skill that ain't worth it. Or even trying to get the seal for a class that's a lot of effort to gain for not much reward, for that matter.

1 hour ago, Mjolnir said:

We will also have to agree to disagree on Linny's viability as an offensive gambit user. Again, I think the investment is trivial. He's currently my highest lv. character at 31 and has 27cha, on par with Claude who at lv. 30 has 28cha. I think it's very useful to take a unit who would otherwise not be able to get off offensive gambits and make them into one that reliably can instead of taking a unit with already high cha and driving that cha into the sky. There's a point past which added cha is a bit redundant.

How many Black Pearls and Golden Apples did you feed him? A ton? Because with his shit charm base and growth, there's no way in the seven hells he's getting close to the lords' charm scores without some major luck on your part or a shitton of favoritism.

1 hour ago, Mjolnir said:

I never want to replace an inventory slot with an item if it can be at all helped past very early game. I did put elixers, concoctions etc on most for ch. 13, but that's a special circumstance. If I can avoid toting it around, I will. Pure water is an annoying clutter when you could have a weapon that might be more useful there imo.

Just how many weapons do you usually have on your units? Because I find any more than three to be unnecessary, more often than not.

RE: Dark Knight: Unless you're a male, I see qualifying for it as too much effort for not much reward (and the only male mage worth anything in this game is Hubert).

Edited by Shadow Mir

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5 hours ago, Geenobe said:

I don’t know why people seem to forget about Hanneman but he is most definitely a better damage dealing mage when compared to Lorenz, he has some of the highest magic in the game, having 20 magic at level 15 when recruited, being on par with Lysithea and Hubert and beating everyone else at same level, and he has a 55% magic growth, meaning he will only slightly be passed by Lysithea after a few levels and stay on par with Hubert. Hanneman is probably the second best offensive mage in the game, only behind Hubert, and despite Lysithea doing slightly more damage, she lacks 3 range until S rank magic whereas Hanneman and Hubert both have 3 range to compensate for slightly lower damage. (Lysithea is better though since she has utility.) Dorothea and Marriane are also better offenSive mages than Lorenz since they get Thoron for 3 range and have better magic stats than him. Lorenz could be better than Marianne since the extra 4 damage he gets from his prf and a Ferdinand adjutant, + higher mt on Ragnarok and Agneas arrow might make his lower mag less important, but he wont be doing more damage than Dorothea.


there have been like 3 pages on exclusively Lorenz so who wants to talk about some other units, like Ignatz or Alois.

lol, you're right, I completely forgot about Hanneman
still, Hanneman lacks Lorenz's bulk (his main nieche) and ability to support with most of the cast (for linked attacks), so I guess they are roughly on par in terms of overall utility (meteor at A+ is not really a big factor imho since you either have 4mov (bleargh) and 2 meteors or 7mov and 1 meteor (meh), also A+ means that it will only be relevant in the lategame)
in case you missed it, I posted numbers that show that Lorenz outdamages most mages for most of the early+mid game, and he easily outdamages Dorothea, Annette and Marianne (also, Frozen Lance is a thing)

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7 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

So re: Annette he is outdamaging her when comparing their basic spells.

Comparing the average Lorenz to the average Anette at level 24 we get Lorenz with 21mag and Annette with 27. The damage forumals are as follows:

((magic + might) + (up to 20% of max hp if you have poison strile))  - resistance 

27 + 2 - 6 = 23

(21 + 3 + 9) - 6 = 27 + 2 from Distinguished house = 29

The might of wind is 2, the might of fire is 3. Lorenz is out damaging her by 4pts due to poison strike, but then add in his personal and he's hitting for 6 more damage. Granted, she is perhaps more likely to double due to her spells generally being lower in WT but even that is questionable because Lorenz has decent str growth to make up for his slightly heavier spells. He also has a slightly better speed growth (40 vs. 35). And even mages sometimes have trouble doubling on Maddening NG depending on the mob.

 

He outdamages her due to poison strike and his personal, despite his lower average mag stat, and get gets on horse much easier. He's a better attack mage. She's a far better rallybot.

Do you realize you have considered them at level 24 whitout factoring tomefaire(also, both should have fiendish blow)? That a 1 point difference, except poison strike damage is only ever applied to non lethal blows and wind spells have effectiveness againist flyers. That's not what i would call better. And Annette has a truckload of issues as a straight attack mage.

 

Errata Corrige: only excalibur is effective againist flyers. Still, she would have it by level 24.

Edited by Flere210

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6 hours ago, Geenobe said:

I don’t know why people seem to forget about Hanneman but he is most definitely a better damage dealing mage when compared to Lorenz, he has some of the highest magic in the game, having 20 magic at level 15 when recruited, being on par with Lysithea and Hubert and beating everyone else at same level, and he has a 55% magic growth, meaning he will only slightly be passed by Lysithea after a few levels and stay on par with Hubert. Hanneman is probably the second best offensive mage in the game, only behind Hubert, and despite Lysithea doing slightly more damage, she lacks 3 range until S rank magic whereas Hanneman and Hubert both have 3 range to compensate for slightly lower damage. (Lysithea is better though since she has utility.) Dorothea and Marriane are also better offenSive mages than Lorenz since they get Thoron for 3 range and have better magic stats than him. Lorenz could be better than Marianne since the extra 4 damage he gets from his prf and a Ferdinand adjutant, + higher mt on Ragnarok and Agneas arrow might make his lower mag less important, but he wont be doing more damage than Dorothea.


there have been like 3 pages on exclusively Lorenz so who wants to talk about some other units, like Ignatz or Alois.

Hanneman has some availability problems which is part of why he's often forgotten I think. He'll also pretty much never double, which is fine if he is one shotting but ime in Maddening NG he doesn't usually. Maybe he should / could with help, but by the time you get him you've already invested in other units that will outshine him without a lot of babying. I guess he's good to have on hand if someone gets RNG screwed.

I like Ignatz and think he's another unit that, like Lorenz, often gets crapped on despite having a lot of utility. I'm more meh on Alois but could be convinced!

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That does jack shit to change the fact that it just ain't worth it because the classes you gain access to are just not that good. I'd rather just go to mage and get Fiendish Blow rather than waste time picking up a skill that ain't worth it. Or even trying to get the seal for a class that's a lot of effort to gain for not much reward, for that matter.

How many Black Pearls and Golden Apples did you feed him? A ton? Because with his shit charm base and growth, there's no way in the seven hells he's getting close to the lords' charm scores without some major luck on your part or a shitton of favoritism.

Just how many weapons do you usually have on your units? Because I find any more than three to be unnecessary, more often than not.

RE: Dark Knight: Unless you're a male, I see qualifying for it as too much effort for not much reward (and the only male mage worth anything in this game is Hubert).

Getting both Poison Strike and Fiendish Blow is trivial on Maddening NG, even more so on Maddneing NG+.

Tea time is a thing. It didn't take many to get his charm to 16 (or was it 17?) before taking the dance lesson. He's admittedly RNG blessed in this playthrough but 10% growth from Dancer does help a lot.

Every unit of mine that's melee has one ring/gem/shield and a boatload of weapons. They have diverse loadouts since every situation is a bit different. Sometimes you might want more accuracy, so take the iron lace+. Sometimes more power so choose the silver lance. Sometimes range so choose short spear+. Sometimes a gamble on a crit so choose killer lance+. Or you're fighting an armor or calvary unit so reach for rapier or mace+.

Can you play through the game, even on maddening ng, with just an iron sword+? Sure, but ime it's better to have a wide array of weapons at your disposal so you rarely if ever feel the need to use a healing item or buffing item. I remember when I first started playing FE decades ago, I would keep healing items on everyone but now I feel like that's just a waste of a slot that could go to a weapon that could put you in a situation where a healing item is unneeded.

Right, so this puts Lorenz up a peg: getting into Dark Knight is a PITA for any other mage. This works heavily in his favor in a game where canto is quite broken. 

56 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Do you realize you have considered them at level 24 whitout factoring tomefaire(also, both should have fiendish blow)? That a 1 point difference, except poison strike damage is only ever applied to non lethal blows and wind spells have effectiveness againist flyers. That's not what i would call better. And Annette has a truckload of issues as a straight attack mage.

 

Errata Corrige: only excalibur is effective againist flyers. Still, she would have it by level 24.

Doesn't factoring those in just cancel out? It adds +6 and +5 respectively to both. i didn't include it since it didn't seem necessary, since they should both have both of them (I decided that staying in DB for heartseeker is not ideal, Lorenz does want to quickly go through that back into Warlock then into Dark Knight).

 

Annnete's spell list is, imo, the worst one in the game. Yeah, excalibur is nice but do you really want to get her anywhere near the extremely dangerous fliers in NG Maddening as a Gremory or Warlock? I mean, be my guest but it's dicey and she has issues entering Dark Knight. Otherwise her spells are light and accurate but less damaging. She'll double more in the early game (but that's when you want her as a rallybot), but that drops off towards mid and disappears near end game. 

 

1 hour ago, AxelVDP said:

lol, you're right, I completely forgot about Hanneman
still, Hanneman lacks Lorenz's bulk (his main nieche) and ability to support with most of the cast (for linked attacks), so I guess they are roughly on par in terms of overall utility (meteor at A+ is not really a big factor imho since you either have 4mov (bleargh) and 2 meteors or 7mov and 1 meteor (meh), also A+ means that it will only be relevant in the lategame)
in case you missed it, I posted numbers that show that Lorenz outdamages most mages for most of the early+mid game, and he easily outdamages Dorothea, Annette and Marianne (also, Frozen Lance is a thing)

 

Huh, I actually did miss that somehow. Going back to look now. I'm glad it's not just me. 🙂

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I'm not sure why people are claiming it's difficult to certify as a Dark Knight. Perhaps if you don't rig for promotions, but a unit only needs the B+ Reason, C+ Riding, and C Lances to have a ~50%  chance of passing.

That really isn't much investment considering the Reason rank would've been already taken care of considering Warlock takes A Rank, and it'd only take 480 Riding exp to reach C+ Rank. Even a unit without a boon can gain 56 Riding exp from a combination of Weekly Training, Activites and Tutoring. And that number can be increases substantially once you include the possibility of Prefects and Greats. 

Also, how is Lorenez particularly bulky in any regard? Sure, he might have higher HP than other mages, but he doesn't evenbreak the Warlock Class base of 12 Defense on Average. He's not going to be durable enough to take more than 1 hit from most enemies, especially as the game goes on.  

Edited by LoneRecon400

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7 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Doesn't factoring those in just cancel out? It adds +6 and +5 respectively to both. i didn't include it since it didn't seem necessary, since they should both have both of them (I decided that staying in DB for heartseeker is not ideal, Lorenz does want to quickly go through that back into Warlock then into Dark Knight).

 

Annnete's spell list is, imo, the worst one in the game. Yeah, excalibur is nice but do you really want to get her anywhere near the extremely dangerous fliers in NG Maddening as a Gremory or Warlock? I mean, be my guest but it's dicey and she has issues entering Dark Knight. Otherwise her spells are light and accurate but less damaging. She'll double more in the early game (but that's when you want her as a rallybot), but that drops off towards mid and disappears near end game. 

 

 

Sure, if Lorenz is allowed to master 2 classes to everyone else's 1, then he is better than other people. But then you have to explain me how it is not favouritism. 

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2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Sure, if Lorenz is allowed to master 2 classes to everyone else's 1, then he is better than other people. But then you have to explain me how it is not favouritism. 

Simple: most of my characters end up mastering more than one class in Maddening NG+ due to the exp nerf being so harsh, and the class exp nerf not. So for instance Marianne is ALSO going to be mastering both Mage and Priest. It's no difference at all, really.

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17 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

lol, you're right, I completely forgot about Hanneman
still, Hanneman lacks Lorenz's bulk (his main nieche) and ability to support with most of the cast (for linked attacks), so I guess they are roughly on par in terms of overall utility (meteor at A+ is not really a big factor imho since you either have 4mov (bleargh) and 2 meteors or 7mov and 1 meteor (meh), also A+ means that it will only be relevant in the lategame)
in case you missed it, I posted numbers that show that Lorenz outdamages most mages for most of the early+mid game, and he easily outdamages Dorothea, Annette and Marianne (also, Frozen Lance is a thing)

Hi, on a different account due to different devices. You didn’t mention Dorothea’s Agnes’s Arrow, which puts her damage above his. He does have higher damage than Marianne (she can do more damage with Aura however but that isn’t a reason spell.) but the utility that three range gives her, whilst still being able to do high damage makes her combat better, since it’s much easier to position her. The reason I think Hanneman and Hubert have better combat than Lysithea despite her slightly higher damage is due to their three range spells.

Lorenz not having three range is a big deal, albeit not as big a deal as other mages not having three range due to his decent bulk. Lorenz bulk is his biggest seller, and it makes him the easiest mage to play around with the since if you accidently leave him in enemy’s range he won’t die, but as long as you take care of their positioning, Lysithea, Hubert, Dorothea and Hanneman all outshine him greatly. In terms of baiting enemies with him, while he can do it sometimes you are better off using a tanky unit like raph or dedue.

While Lorenz will outdamage most mages in the mid game, the problem is that it’s the mid game, the easiest part in all difficulties, especially maddening where it is greatly easier than the rest of the game, so the higher damage is nice, but when the harder parts of the game role around his damage will only be on average. Lorenz is still good, and an underrated unit, but I think you’re trying to oversell his damage, where his real utility over other mages is his ability to live hits instead of being another’s glass cannon. Probably a B tier unit on non VW and Top of B or bottom of A on VW

 

on topic of Hanneman. He still has a good amount of supports, but his hit rate is very much a non issue when he joins with C bows, allowing him to swap to archer and quickly get hit+20 in 1 or 2 aux battles with the knowledge gem. Meteor even with only 4 move is still very useful on maddening due to being able to chip or kill a threatening enemy from complete safety. It is pretty pointless on hard and normal but Hanneman is a lot worse on those difficulties for reasons I will soon discuss.

Hanneman has horrible speed, which may sound bad, and on hard mode it’s Ian really bad. Thankfully, on maddening enemies are insanely fast and the only mage that will be able to double more than Armor Knights is Manuela. Hanneman’s Speed becomes much less of an issue when no mage doubles, and his high magic and great reason list really shines, especially post timeskip. He will have issues doubling Armor Knights at base, but if he gets a speed wing or 2 speed carrots he will be able to double all Armor knights in the game so long as he keeps leveling hid speed on average.

i would rate Hanneman as a low A tier unit on all routes on Maddening, but on the easier difficulties he drops a lot since people can actually double, so low B or high C on hard and normal.

Edited by Geenoble
Grammar

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1 hour ago, Mjolnir said:

Simple: most of my characters end up mastering more than one class in Maddening NG+ due to the exp nerf being so harsh, and the class exp nerf not. So for instance Marianne is ALSO going to be mastering both Mage and Priest. It's no difference at all, really.

As someone who has played Maddening NG it is very easy to master multiple intermediate classes, and you can always make someone an adjutant to a bulky self sustainable unit like Felix or Alois and have them solo the map while the unit has the knowledge gem and masters the intermediate class.

Edited by Geenoble
Replaced can’t with can and hasn't with has damn small iphone 5.

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1 hour ago, Geenoble said:

As someone who has played Maddening NG it is very easy to master multiple intermediate classes, and you can’t always make someone an adjutant to a bulky self sustainable unit like Felix or Alois and have them solo the map while the unit hasn’t the knowledge gem and masters the intermediate class.

Did you make a couple of typos and mean to say: "you CAN always make someone an adjutant to a bulky self sustainable unit like Felix or Alois and have them solo the map while the unit HAS the knowledge gem and masters the intermediate class"? It feels like you did from the rest of your post. 😉

So if you are saying that it's very easy to master multiple intermediate classes, I totally agree. I usually don't even need the knowledge gem or an adjutant for magical units since they get class exp from supporting spells which are easier to grind (like healing 1pt of damage or later spamming Ward for no reason). It's almost like an afterthought, really. I always master Bishop and Mage with basically every magical unit on NG Maddening because there's no reason not to since it basically happens on its own ime.

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4 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Hi, on a different account due to different devices. You didn’t mention Dorothea’s Agnes’s Arrow, which puts her damage above his. He does have higher damage than Marianne (she can do more damage with Aura however but that isn’t a reason spell.) but the utility that three range gives her, whilst still being able to do high damage makes her combat better, since it’s much easier to position her. The reason I think Hanneman and Hubert have better combat than Lysithea despite her slightly higher damage is due to their three range spells.

Lorenz not having three range is a big deal, albeit not as big a deal as amber having three range due to his decent bulk. Lorenz bulk is his biggest seller, and it makes him the easiest mage to play around with the since if you accidently leave him in enemy’s range he won’t die, but as long as you take care of their positioning, Lysithea, Hubert, Dorothea and Hanneman all outshine him greatly. In terms of baiting enemies with him, while he can’t do it sometimes you are better off using a tanky unit like raph or dedue.

While Lorenz will outdamage most mages in the mid game, the problem is that it’s the mid game, the easiest part in all difficulties, especially maddening where it is greatly easier than the rest of the game, so the higher damage is nice, but when the harder parts of the game role around his damage will only be on average. Lorenz is still good, and an underrated unit, but I think you’re trying to oversell his damage, where his real utility over other mages is his ability to live hits instead of being another’s glass cannon. Probably a B tier unit on non VW and Top of B or bottom of A on VW

 

on topic of Hanneman. He still has a good amount of supports, but his hit rate is very much a non issue when he joins with C bows, allowing him to swap to archer and quickly get hit+20 in 1 or 2 aux battles with the knowledge gem. Meteor even with only 4 move is still very useful on maddening due to being able to chip or kill a threatening enemy from complete safety. It is pretty pointless on hard and normal but Hanneman is a lot worse on those difficulties for reasons I will soon discuss.

Hanneman has horrible speed, which may sound bad, and on hard mode it’s Ian really bad. Thankfully, on maddening enemies are insanely fast and the only mage that will be able to double more than Armor Knights is Manuela. Hanneman’s Speed becomes much less of an issue when no mage doubles, and his high magic and great reason list really shines, especially post timeskip. He will have issues doubling Armor Knights at base, but if he gets a speed wing or 2 speed carrots he will be able to double all Armor knights in the game so long as he keeps leveling hid speed on average.

i would rate Hanneman as a low A tier unit on all routes on Maddening, but on the easier difficulties he drops a lot since people can actually double, so low B or high C on hard and normal.

Dorothea won't be outdamaging Lorenz even with Agnea's Arrow, they would be around the same power. The difference being that Dorothea learns that spell at A+, which is way to late (assuming you are not putting all your tutoring on Dorothea's reasoning skills, you should get it around mid timeskip iirc). Lorenz starts nuking immediatly since he learns powerful spells super early (ragnarok at B).
Also, by the time other mages start getting the jump on him in term of spell damage, he should be in Dark Knight and using Frozen Lance + canto (Frozen Lance is stronger than any spell). Only Hubert should realistically be able to outdamage him at this point with the same setup (and I guess Marianne could do it too with a mounted masterclass, but she's usually a little to squishy and should be doing other things like healing or dancing).
Hanneman getting hit+20 sounds impractical tbh, and I was actually referring to the accuracy he grants with linked attacks, not his own, he sould not have accuracy issues tbh

asides from these things, I don't really disagree with the rest of your post.

extra: Poison Strike and Lifetaker are super underwhelming skills, not really worth going for them (though, what are you doing in your game if you don't kill the Death Knight on every his appearence?!?!?)

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