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Fire Emblem Three Houses Unit Tier Lists

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16 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Every unit of mine that's melee has one ring/gem/shield and a boatload of weapons. They have diverse loadouts since every situation is a bit different. Sometimes you might want more accuracy, so take the iron lace+. Sometimes more power so choose the silver lance. Sometimes range so choose short spear+. Sometimes a gamble on a crit so choose killer lance+. Or you're fighting an armor or calvary unit so reach for rapier or mace+.

Can you play through the game, even on maddening ng, with just an iron sword+? Sure, but ime it's better to have a wide array of weapons at your disposal so you rarely if ever feel the need to use a healing item or buffing item. I remember when I first started playing FE decades ago, I would keep healing items on everyone but now I feel like that's just a waste of a slot that could go to a weapon that could put you in a situation where a healing item is unneeded.

I used to think that way too, but far more often than not, I found that carrying nothing but weapons ended up being a case of diminishing returns - ergo, I found that there was very little need to have as many weapons as I have item slots, because past a certain point, I'm not getting any noteworthy returns from holding more weapons. In the same vein, I find carrying 5 weapons plus an accessory to be an extremely impractical notion in this game. The only games that are exceptions are Path of Radiance and Mystery of the Emblem, which have separate slots for weapons and items.

16 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Right, so this puts Lorenz up a peg: getting into Dark Knight is a PITA for any other mage. This works heavily in his favor in a game where canto is quite broken. 

I dunno about you, but I often found that having a horse just isn't what it used to be - too much terrain slowdown to deal with (I often found myself in situations where either my cavalry fell short of being able to attack an enemy unit, or they could, but terrain slowdown prevented them from retreating and making room for another unit to attack), and in general, I find most cavalry classes underwhelming (about the only cavalry class that I found useful was Bow Knight). That's saying nothing of the fact that nearly all cavalry classes have negative speed modifiers unless you dismount, which, with speed being as important as it is, is no bueno. Also, why is Holy Knight never recommended if being on horseback is so great???

16 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Tea time is a thing. It didn't take many to get his charm to 16 (or was it 17?) before taking the dance lesson. He's admittedly RNG blessed in this playthrough but 10% growth from Dancer does help a lot.

So I'm forced to blow activity points I'd rather have used on other units on him instead. Whoopedy-freaking-do. And his shitty charm growth becomes slightly less shitty as a result... Yay?

16 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Getting both Poison Strike and Fiendish Blow is trivial on Maddening NG, even more so on Maddneing NG+.

Doesn't change the fact that Dark Mage is garbage and Poison Strike is really underwhelming. Which is NOT okay considering the risk factor getting Dark Seals tends to carry.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I used to think that way too, but far more often than not, I found that carrying nothing but weapons ended up being a case of diminishing returns - ergo, I found that there was very little need to have as many weapons as I have item slots, because past a certain point, I'm not getting any noteworthy returns from holding more weapons. In the same vein, I find carrying 5 weapons plus an accessory to be an extremely impractical notion in this game.

Dunno about you but most of my non mage units usually carry:
- a light weapon (training/iron, might be silver late game)
- combat art weapon (aka steel or another silver)
- a ranged option (bows or javelins/etc)
- a utility weapon (brave, horse/armorslayers/etc)
- a weapon of some other type in order not to get fucked by -breaker skills (most units should wield multiple weapon types, be it because you need lance ranks for most classes or any other reason)

also, in mid+late game vulneraries and concotions are mostly a waste of an item slot (they heal very little + you should have healers with physics)

and if you need them just give them to the mages so you can trade them around if need be

soooo, wtf?
 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno about you, but I often found that having a horse just isn't what it used to be - too much terrain slowdown to deal with (I often found myself in situations where either my cavalry fell short of being able to attack an enemy unit, or they could, but terrain slowdown prevented them from retreating and making room for another unit to attack), and in general, I find most cavalry classes underwhelming (about the only cavalry class that I found useful was Bow Knight). That's saying nothing of the fact that nearly all cavalry classes have negative speed modifiers unless you dismount, which, with speed being as important as it is, is no bueno. Also, why is Holy Knight never recommended if being on horseback is so great??

speed is a non issue for mages, they will not be doubling anything but armors anyway (on maddening atleast), same goes for getting doubled, it usually won't matter a bit
dismounted cavalry still has 6 mov, which is waaaay better than the 4 mov for male mages, and do not suffer from cavalry terrain penalty.
also your last point is very disingenuous. holy knight are a shit class because there are no good faith spells with decent ammount of uses, not because mounts are inherently bad. in fact, dark knight is a great mage class.
 

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5 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

Dorothea won't be outdamaging Lorenz even with Agnea's Arrow, they would be around the same power.

I just did some calcs and it isn’t the same power, on average assuming Dorothea is a Gremory and Lorenz is A DK, Lorenz actually has higher damage. With Dorothea averaging a magic stat of 24.6 or rounded to 25, and Lorenz having a magic stat of 22 or with his prf 24. Dorothea then gets 30 Mag from Gremories class modifiers whereas Lorenz only gets 26, however Black Tomefaire makes his Magic reach 31 (or 33 with a ferdinand adjutant.) so i was wrong, Lorenz actually has higher damage than Dorothea for the late game as well. Of course if Dorothea is a Dark Knight she outdamages him but she isn’t realistically getting into Dark Knight. However i still think Hanneman, Lysithea and Hubert all best him as offensive mages. Even without Frozen Lance Lysithea has soul blade to boost her damage still beyond Lorenz, and you already mentioned Huberts frozen lance. That leaves Hanneman without a combat art. However at level 15 Hanneman has 19 magic, at level 20 he has 22.25 Magic and at level 25 he has 25.5 magic making his spells do more than Lorenz, Dorothea or any other mage could. Lorenz should average a Dex stat of 17.3 at level 25 making his Frozen lance add an effective damage of +8 to the base might. Using a Steel Lance+ Lorenz will have 49 attack adding on his Prf and the basic +4 magic battalion, Hanneman will have 49 attack with Ragnarok, yet will be able to attack from 2 range. Of course Lorenz could use a silver lance but you need to get him to B lances for that which will make him take longer to get Black magic range + 1, something he desperately wants due to lacking innate three range. After checking numbers i do think Lorenz is the 4th best combat mage on maddening, behind Lysithea with her higher damage, and Hanneman and Hubert, with their higher damage and three range.

i addressed the hit +20 issue as moreso to make his accuracy even better, allowing him to reach 98 hit on post timeskip maddening Assasins with Ragnarok. Making him an incredibly reliable nuke or chipper. I would recommend getting hit+20 on any offensive mage as it makes them much more reliable. The linked attack boost is an issue with him in BL and GD but he supports with most of the BE and even on GD and BL he still has enough supports to not make him Anna levels of bad in the linked attack department. He also has built in Rally Magic, allowing you to give 1 extra warp range, or get another mage to a kill.

6 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

Poison Strike and Lifetaker are super underwhelming skills, not really worth going for them

I know this wasn’t directed at my post, but i want to add my opinion on these skills, lifetaker is really bad and no one but Hubert should be Dark Bishop. Poison strike is weird in that for most of the game it doesn’t really matter, however in some of the later maps, especially late game in maps like CF ch 17 or VW ch 22, where enemies have insanely high hp, it is pretty useful since it can add on up to 17 damage depending on the enemies, and the enemies on those maps have so much HP that you might need 3 untis to kill them without something like poison strike, though it is not necessary to beat those enemies since their are other ways to deal with them such as a brave weapon or stunning with gambits. Overall I wouldn’t say poison strike is super worthit since its a skill thats ok for some late game maps but overall pretty pointless. It’s there if you want it and it doesn’t hurt but there isnt a need for it.

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I used to think that way too, but far more often than not, I found that carrying nothing but weapons ended up being a case of diminishing returns - ergo, I found that there was very little need to have as many weapons as I have item slots, because past a certain point, I'm not getting any noteworthy returns from holding more weapons. In the same vein, I find carrying 5 weapons plus an accessory to be an extremely impractical notion in this game. The only games that are exceptions are Path of Radiance and Mystery of the Emblem, which have separate slots for weapons and items.

 

I dunno about you, but I often found that having a horse just isn't what it used to be - too much terrain slowdown to deal with (I often found myself in situations where either my cavalry fell short of being able to attack an enemy unit, or they could, but terrain slowdown prevented them from retreating and making room for another unit to attack), and in general, I find most cavalry classes underwhelming (about the only cavalry class that I found useful was Bow Knight). That's saying nothing of the fact that nearly all cavalry classes have negative speed modifiers unless you dismount, which, with speed being as important as it is, is no bueno. Also, why is Holy Knight never recommended if being on horseback is so great???

So I'm forced to blow activity points I'd rather have used on other units on him instead. Whoopedy-freaking-do. And his shitty charm growth becomes slightly less shitty as a result... Yay?

Doesn't change the fact that Dark Mage is garbage and Poison Strike is really underwhelming. Which is NOT okay considering the risk factor getting Dark Seals tends to carry.

Yeah, I really disagree on the weapon loadout. I use basically the same exact loadout strat as AxelVDP does, so I guess just refer to that post for how I think it ideally works. I would have figured everyone did, but that's probably a discussion for a dedicated topic since it's a bit off topic for a tier list. I may ask though since now I'm curious: one person thinks the way I do it is wrong and another does it pretty much exactly the same as I do.

 

While it is true that horse canto is < flier canto (this is Flier emblem after all), it's still better than lower move + no canto in most situations.Speed is not super important for mages in Maddening NG, as others have explained. Maybe in Hard mode or something you would have a point. Holy Knight is not recommended since most units prefer to attack with Reason rather than Faith, ergo White Tomefaire < Black Tomefaire.

 

He does not require many points at all to pass the dancing test. Around that time, he'll have around 8cha base. His birthday is on 7th of the Red Wolf Moon (11th month) and the dancing contest is the month after that. So that's one free tea time and usually +1cha unless you get unlucky or mess up. So that's 8 + 1 + 5 = 14 already enough to qualify most times, but to be safe 2 more points should be added. Those can come from Golden Apples (which drop very often from DLC yellow aux battles) or from 2 more tea times. 2 activity points in the grand scheme is nothing, especially with the way I tend to play I often end up in mid game with many extras (after gifts become available and Byleth is comfortable in their skill levels). My Byleths tend to end up with S or S+ in their favored skills anyway, so feeding one or two measly action points for the huge long term benefit of having a Dancer with warp and decent cha is very worth it imo. I'm glad I'm not the only one ITT who isn't remotely threatened by the Death Knight. It's a fun challenge, nothing more. Unless you're playing Iron Man, if you are playing anywhere near optimally it's not an issue at all.

 

6 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

Dunno about you but most of my non mage units usually carry:
- a light weapon (training/iron, might be silver late game)
- combat art weapon (aka steel or another silver)
- a ranged option (bows or javelins/etc)
- a utility weapon (brave, horse/armorslayers/etc)
- a weapon of some other type in order not to get fucked by -breaker skills (most units should wield multiple weapon types, be it because you need lance ranks for most classes or any other reason)

also, in mid+late game vulneraries and concotions are mostly a waste of an item slot (they heal very little + you should have healers with physics)

and if you need them just give them to the mages so you can trade them around if need be

soooo, wtf?
 

speed is a non issue for mages, they will not be doubling anything but armors anyway (on maddening atleast), same goes for getting doubled, it usually won't matter a bit
dismounted cavalry still has 6 mov, which is waaaay better than the 4 mov for male mages, and do not suffer from cavalry terrain penalty.
also your last point is very disingenuous. holy knight are a shit class because there are no good faith spells with decent ammount of uses, not because mounts are inherently bad. in fact, dark knight is a great mage class.
 

This is precisely how I manage my inventory! Except ofc add in Relics (which I shuffle in and out depending on how important / difficult the battle will be). It seems super wasteful to keep healing items in a physical attacker's inventory in most instances (with rare exceptions like ch. 13 VW), since a physical attacker healing themselves to me means I've messed up my strat somehow. Usually minimal damage should be incurred, and most maps save very difficult ones only call for one long range healer. If an emergency occurs and a healing item is needed, in most cases ime a mage carrying Elixers, Concoctions, and Vulneraries (and perhaps also anti-toxins if the map has poison) is near enough to go trade for one and heal.

I also completely agree re: speed in Maddening, and about the assessment of cavalry vs. infantry and DK being a great class.

2 hours ago, Geenoble said:

I just did some calcs and it isn’t the same power, on average assuming Dorothea is a Gremory and Lorenz is A DK, Lorenz actually has higher damage. With Dorothea averaging a magic stat of 24.6 or rounded to 25, and Lorenz having a magic stat of 22 or with his prf 24. Dorothea then gets 30 Mag from Gremories class modifiers whereas Lorenz only gets 26, however Black Tomefaire makes his Magic reach 31 (or 33 with a ferdinand adjutant.) so i was wrong, Lorenz actually has higher damage than Dorothea for the late game as well. Of course if Dorothea is a Dark Knight she outdamages him but she isn’t realistically getting into Dark Knight. However i still think Hanneman, Lysithea and Hubert all best him as offensive mages. Even without Frozen Lance Lysithea has soul blade to boost her damage still beyond Lorenz, and you already mentioned Huberts frozen lance. That leaves Hanneman without a combat art. However at level 15 Hanneman has 19 magic, at level 20 he has 22.25 Magic and at level 25 he has 25.5 magic making his spells do more than Lorenz, Dorothea or any other mage could. Lorenz should average a Dex stat of 17.3 at level 25 making his Frozen lance add an effective damage of +8 to the base might. Using a Steel Lance+ Lorenz will have 49 attack adding on his Prf and the basic +4 magic battalion, Hanneman will have 49 attack with Ragnarok, yet will be able to attack from 2 range. Of course Lorenz could use a silver lance but you need to get him to B lances for that which will make him take longer to get Black magic range + 1, something he desperately wants due to lacking innate three range. After checking numbers i do think Lorenz is the 4th best combat mage on maddening, behind Lysithea with her higher damage, and Hanneman and Hubert, with their higher damage and three range.

i addressed the hit +20 issue as moreso to make his accuracy even better, allowing him to reach 98 hit on post timeskip maddening Assasins with Ragnarok. Making him an incredibly reliable nuke or chipper. I would recommend getting hit+20 on any offensive mage as it makes them much more reliable. The linked attack boost is an issue with him in BL and GD but he supports with most of the BE and even on GD and BL he still has enough supports to not make him Anna levels of bad in the linked attack department. He also has built in Rally Magic, allowing you to give 1 extra warp range, or get another mage to a kill.

I know this wasn’t directed at my post, but i want to add my opinion on these skills, lifetaker is really bad and no one but Hubert should be Dark Bishop. Poison strike is weird in that for most of the game it doesn’t really matter, however in some of the later maps, especially late game in maps like CF ch 17 or VW ch 22, where enemies have insanely high hp, it is pretty useful since it can add on up to 17 damage depending on the enemies, and the enemies on those maps have so much HP that you might need 3 untis to kill them without something like poison strike, though it is not necessary to beat those enemies since their are other ways to deal with them such as a brave weapon or stunning with gambits. Overall I wouldn’t say poison strike is super worthit since its a skill thats ok for some late game maps but overall pretty pointless. It’s there if you want it and it doesn’t hurt but there isnt a need for it.

I basically agree with all of this (well the parts I'd thought a bit about anyway, the analysis re: Hanneman was new to me (why is he so forgettable, him? I think it's part down to when he arrives perhaps?) so thank you for that).

One thing I do think should be factored into these discussions are range boosting relics, however. I think that Thyrsus elevates Lysithea from very good to "DELETE". I always give that to her, to me that's "her" relic. However, if he's in play Lorenz gets Caduces since it helps a LOT with his being locked to 2range spells by default. It is very true he wants to rush for Black Magic +1 on top of that, and when that does come in he's even more deadly.

I just really think Poison Strike is super useful. One thing I really love it for is feeding kills to new recruits, or those who have fallen a bit behind since you can very easily control the hp in Maddening NG to fall in the 1-9 range for any unit to sweep in and mop up. Being able to get something down that far is still useful generally, imo. I agree that it gets more and more useful as the game goes on and enemy hp totals skyrocket. Also, the higher the hp something has the more likely it will take several units to kill, and the more likely Poison Strike can make the difference between getting that kill in one turn, or face an enemy phase against a powerful high hp enemy.

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6 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

Dunno about you but most of my non mage units usually carry:
- a light weapon (training/iron, might be silver late game)
- combat art weapon (aka steel or another silver)
- a ranged option (bows or javelins/etc)
- a utility weapon (brave, horse/armorslayers/etc)
- a weapon of some other type in order not to get fucked by -breaker skills (most units should wield multiple weapon types, be it because you need lance ranks for most classes or any other reason)

also, in mid+late game vulneraries and concotions are mostly a waste of an item slot (they heal very little + you should have healers with physics)

and if you need them just give them to the mages so you can trade them around if need be

soooo, wtf?

I have to acknowledge the fact that my healers might have already used up their turns. And I was speaking in terms of the series in general - I often found more than three weapons to be superfluous in most games, and if I had a fourth weapon on a unit, it was usually as a replacement for a weapon that was soon to break. Once again, the only exceptions were the games that had separate inventories. Also, Physic alone tends to not be enough either, at least unless you're either a Bishop or are equipped with a Healing Staff.

6 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

speed is a non issue for mages, they will not be doubling anything but armors anyway (on maddening atleast), same goes for getting doubled, it usually won't matter a bit
dismounted cavalry still has 6 mov, which is waaaay better than the 4 mov for male mages, and do not suffer from cavalry terrain penalty.
also your last point is very disingenuous. holy knight are a shit class because there are no good faith spells with decent ammount of uses, not because mounts are inherently bad. in fact, dark knight is a great mage class.

I brought it up because frankly, I find the overemphasis on being mounted unwarranted, considering that most mounted classes aren't that great imho. Including Dark Knight. Like I said, I'm not one to take the path of most resistance for a meager payoff.

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4 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

 

One thing I do think should be factored into these discussions are range boosting relics, however. I think that Thyrsus elevates Lysithea from very good to "DELETE". I always give that to her, to me that's "her" relic. However, if he's in play Lorenz gets Caduces since it helps a LOT with his being locked to 2range spells by default. It is very true he wants to rush for Black Magic +1 on top of that, and when that does come in he's even more deadly.

I didn’t mention Thyrus as it can’t be considered a part of Lysithea/Lorenz utility due to everyone being able to use it. It does fix the 2 range problems but you could also have a 5 range hubert. Besides it’s best to trade the thyrus and cadecus around rather than keep it locked to one unit. 
eg; using Thyrus on Lysithea to attack an enemy at 4 range, then using a flier to trade it away and canto near another mage so they can get it and have 4-5 range.

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6 hours ago, Geenoble said:

I didn’t mention Thyrus as it can’t be considered a part of Lysithea/Lorenz utility due to everyone being able to use it. It does fix the 2 range problems but you could also have a 5 range hubert. Besides it’s best to trade the thyrus and cadecus around rather than keep it locked to one unit. 
eg; using Thyrus on Lysithea to attack an enemy at 4 range, then using a flier to trade it away and canto near another mage so they can get it and have 4-5 range.

Hm, you do make some good points there. On reflection, I think you are correct and it is probably most efficient to trade them between around as you describe (I've seen that behavior in Low Turn Count videos, although I can never quite be bothered to do it myself!). So in truly optimal play, yes, they are traded between units who need them. However, if they are being traded they're still being used by Lorenz and Lysithea and therefore it does seem like they should factor in their ratings since they do both have easy access to +1 or +2 range in the form of those relics, which both arrive fairly early in the game.

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5 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

However, if they are being traded they're still being used by Lorenz and Lysithea and therefore it does seem like they should factor in their ratings since they do both have easy access to +1 or +2 range in the form of those relics, which both arrive fairly early in the game.

As long as you're giving that same benefit to any other mages you're comparing them to, since any of them can use them.

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I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but Poison Strike carries on to the next break bar when an enemies break bar reaches 0.

Are we also considering ally boost that certain units have with certain allies?

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5 hours ago, Xenovia said:

Tier list:

S+: Lysithea

 

………...Everyone else.

 

lol shes a player phase exclusive unit that doesn't one shot that much anymore.

4 hours ago, redlight said:

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but Poison Strike carries on to the next break bar when an enemies break bar reaches 0.

Are we also considering ally boost that certain units have with certain allies?

lol never knew that. Shows how little I've used it because its crap(at least on mages). 

No I don't think so because that is taking account of team synergy. People could be using different units as their main team.

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5 hours ago, redlight said:

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but Poison Strike carries on to the next break bar when an enemies break bar reaches 0.

There's actually an unfortunate bug with that. Poison Strike deals 20% of the unit's max HP, but only takes into account a monster's initial max HP, not its increased amounts at later stages. I finally found out what the problem was today, from a video. Notice the first stage and he has 96 HP.  Poison strike deals 9 damage there (not 18, because of that boss' Ancient Dragon skin ability which halves all damage taken from all sources, including poison strike). Now take a look at what happens when they poison strike the final stage where he has 192 max hp. Still 9 damage. When it should be 18.

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I honestly think we should make a separate topic with route specific tier lists and doing an overall tier list averaging all the routes. Since everybody judges a unit differently. Some judge on best performance that unit and some judge on overall like are they good in their house and other routes? We even did this in sacred stones(while the difference isn't as big). I feel like this would provide "healthier" discussion. Thoughts? I'd be down.

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4 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I honestly think we should make a separate topic with route specific tier lists and doing an overall tier list averaging all the routes. Since everybody judges a unit differently. Some judge on best performance that unit and some judge on overall like are they good in their house and other routes? We even did this in sacred stones(while the difference isn't as big). I feel like this would provide "healthier" discussion. Thoughts? I'd be down.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this. It makes it much harder to rate a lot of units, since some units such as Lysithea and Lorenz are better in CW than they are SS or AM due to availablity factors and weapon rank factors, so you’re basically rating two different performances.

 

Im out right now but when I get back home I might make an AM tier list thread unless someone beats me to it.

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11 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

There's actually an unfortunate bug with that. Poison Strike deals 20% of the unit's max HP, but only takes into account a monster's initial max HP, not its increased amounts at later stages. I finally found out what the problem was today, from a video. Notice the first stage and he has 96 HP.  Poison strike deals 9 damage there (not 18, because of that boss' Ancient Dragon skin ability which halves all damage taken from all sources, including poison strike). Now take a look at what happens when they poison strike the final stage where he has 192 max hp. Still 9 damage. When it should be 18.

Huh, that's the first I'm hearing of this / noticing it. That's very unfortunate and does bump PS down in terms of helpfulness if true.  However, I don't see evidence of that in either video you linked. The first one doesn't even really show Lorenz doing PS (maybe your timestamp is wrong?) and even if it did, like you say the boss' ability could account for the damage reduction. In the second one the guy is joking about "get that 9, get that 9!" (from poison strike) but then Lorenz hits for 17 damage when the enemy only has 15hp left so PS doesn't activate at all. I haven't been able to play for a few days so I'm still at the stage of the game where PS should be doing 9 lol, so I can't speak from recent experience as to whether or not it's glitched (my recall from past playthroughs is that it worked as advertised, but I took a break for a while so those memories are not fresh). I think those two (Mangs and Chaz) are a more famous for being more hilarious than methodical in their FE play, especially Chaz. I think if it were a Mekkah video explaining why Poison Strike is glitched I'd take it at face value, but since I didn't see it happen (because he just destroyed the last health bar w/o poison strike activating) I feel like the jury is still out.  😉

 

ETA: I did just test it on an enemy with 60 total hp, and Poison Strike did 12 damage. This is in line with my (admittedly not super clear) memories of running Lorenz w/ poison strike in late game; from what I recall it works correctly.

 

17 hours ago, redlight said:

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but Poison Strike carries on to the next break bar when an enemies break bar reaches 0.

Are we also considering ally boost that certain units have with certain allies?

Excellent point! It has not been mentioned AFAIK, so thank you for bringing that up.

I do think that ally boosts should be taken into consideration. Supports should be a part of optimal play.

 

11 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I honestly think we should make a separate topic with route specific tier lists and doing an overall tier list averaging all the routes. Since everybody judges a unit differently. Some judge on best performance that unit and some judge on overall like are they good in their house and other routes? We even did this in sacred stones(while the difference isn't as big). I feel like this would provide "healthier" discussion. Thoughts? I'd be down.

Agreed, this topic was made by an OP who wanted help with his game it seems, not one who was interested in theory. It doesn't have parameters so it does make it harder to get a good list going.

 

6 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Yeah I pretty much agree with this. It makes it much harder to rate a lot of units, since some units such as Lysithea and Lorenz are better in CW than they are SS or AM due to availablity factors and weapon rank factors, so you’re basically rating two different performances.

 

Im out right now but when I get back home I might make an AM tier list thread unless someone beats me to it.

Cool, it would be great if you made the thread! But maybe consider making a general one, with a request for tier lists for all four routes, including an averaged overall tier list would perhaps be more useful just so it's all in one spot. Or maybe it's more useful to make them for each route? Hm.

Edited by Mjolnir

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7 hours ago, Mjolnir said:

Huh, that's the first I'm hearing of this / noticing it. That's very unfortunate and does bump PS down in terms of helpfulness if true.  However, I don't see evidence of that in either video you linked. The first one doesn't even really show Lorenz doing PS (maybe your timestamp is wrong?) and even if it did, like you say the boss' ability could account for the damage reduction. In the second one the guy is joking about "get that 9, get that 9!" (from poison strike) but then Lorenz hits for 17 damage when the enemy only has 15hp left so PS doesn't activate at all. 

The first video link was just evidence of what the boss' HP is at the first stage, since enemy levels change slightly based on what chapter you do a paralogue in, I didn't want to say definitively what HP values that particular boss always has. They were in Chapter 15 of their playthrough. The second video link shows the bug. As the boss' HP refills for his final stage, notice the big 9 on Lorenz. That's where the game decided to display the damage. And you can confirm it the next time they look at a battle forecast - the boss has 183/192, when he should have 173/192 if Poison Strike was working correctly. And if the boss didn't have Ancient Dragonskin as a skill, he'd be down to 154/192. Give or take one point, I don't know how the game rounds numbers.

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43 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

enemy levels change slightly based on what chapter you do a paralogue in

That's news to me. This exclusive to Maddening?

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59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's news to me. This exclusive to Maddening?

I thought it was always the case. Anyway yes I'm pretty sure I observed it on maddening. Tried to do the Raphael/Ignatz paralogue rout in one chapter where enemies were level 22, and gave up. Then came back on a later chapter to warp skip and the enemies were level 24. And I know I noticed it on other paralogues I put off for dancer/warp, like Felix's. The wiki (the good wiki) also claims enemy levels are adjusted when looking at enemy data. Currently I'm on chapter 11 doing Sword and Shield of Seiros on its last day, and the enemies are level 21. This paralogue unlocks as early as chapter 7, so the scaling doesn't seem to be too oppressive. My units are level 21+. I only held out this long on this one because recruiting Alois gets you another batallion as a reward.

When selecting paralogues from the menu of battles, the stated "recommended level" does not change. And the battles you pick up as quests from the monastery don't seem to change at all, so I like to hang onto them for mastering classes on late recruits. 

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3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

The first video link was just evidence of what the boss' HP is at the first stage, since enemy levels change slightly based on what chapter you do a paralogue in, I didn't want to say definitively what HP values that particular boss always has. They were in Chapter 15 of their playthrough. The second video link shows the bug. As the boss' HP refills for his final stage, notice the big 9 on Lorenz. That's where the game decided to display the damage. And you can confirm it the next time they look at a battle forecast - the boss has 183/192, when he should have 173/192 if Poison Strike was working correctly. And if the boss didn't have Ancient Dragonskin as a skill, he'd be down to 154/192. Give or take one point, I don't know how the game rounds numbers.

Ohh, my apologies! I totally missed what you were trying to communicate. My bad.

 

After you pointed it out, yes, I see the 9 damage now. Hm, do we know if this is a bug on all monsters or is this special to that one in that paralogue? I'll be interested to try it myself the next time I fight a monster. This would be very unfortunate if it's widespread, since Poison Strike should be all rights be at its strongest in monster situations. Is it maybe glitching in part because he did break one of the bars? Like would the result have been the same on that bar if he had not broken it? This does need further testing. That said, I would not be surprised if the company that shipped this game with glitched out adjutant mechanics (a pretty big deal) would have also shipped it with something like this and never bothered to fix it. :/ Thanks for bringing it to light!

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48 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Waiting would also have the advantage of having an Alois who didn't set up his skills like a total tool (why would anyone unequip Axe Prowess and then bring an axe into battle, much less bring a fully blank skill bar?).

Is Green unit Alois the worst unit in the game???

interesting about the auto scaling. I assume it would use the same scaling system as the Auxiliary Battles. Idk what else it would use otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Waiting would also have the advantage of having an Alois who didn't set up his skills like a total tool (why would anyone unequip Axe Prowess and then bring an axe into battle, much less bring a fully blank skill bar?).

The playable green unit versions of characters for pre-time skip paralogues tend to have fabulous stats for maddening, and Alois is no exception, taking 0 damage from many of the enemies in that chapter when I saw Mangs go through it. The drawback to not recruiting them is missing out on battallions. For instance, in Oil and Water, Manuela can straight up fight her way out with no difficulty using nosferatu before the pegasus knights show up if you don't recruit her. Unfortunately, having played the chapter that way, I missed out on Indech sword fighters. I believe that is the only Retribution batallion in pre-time skip for a non BL playthrough. BL can buy Kingdom Archers.

But yeah, the unrecruited versions of those characters generally have no skills, combat arts, or vulneraries. And with no way to trade items to them, equip them with adjutants or anything else useful, what you see is what you get. Oil and Water Manuela is the only case I've seen where they really change your strategy to make it an easier map to clear.

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Hmmm, interesting about Mangs's Alois. The one I had doing it ASAP was taking something like 2x5 from the Thieves and 2x13 from the Assassins. And he could one-shot the Thieves (provided he hit, which, uh, 90 Hit against about 40 Avo it not good odds at all). Thing is, though, him leaving Axe Prowess behind means he has a bit of a hidden glass jaw (especially against the Assassins). That huge HP pool looks great until he eats a 39-damage crit because he's constantly giving everyone 6-8% listed on him.

And that Manuela sounds hilarious. I almost want to try it.

2 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Is Green unit Alois the worst unit in the game???

interesting about the auto scaling. I assume it would use the same scaling system as the Auxiliary Battles. Idk what else it would use otherwise. 

Eh, probably not. Just off the top of my head, unrecruited Ashe in his and Catherine's paralogue feels like a bigger liability.

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5 hours ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Hmmm, interesting about Mangs's Alois. The one I had doing it ASAP was taking something like 2x5 from the Thieves and 2x13 from the Assassins. And he could one-shot the Thieves (provided he hit, which, uh, 90 Hit against about 40 Avo it not good odds at all). Thing is, though, him leaving Axe Prowess behind means he has a bit of a hidden glass jaw (especially against the Assassins). That huge HP pool looks great until he eats a 39-damage crit because he's constantly giving everyone 6-8% listed on him.

And that Manuela sounds hilarious. I almost want to try it.

Eh, probably not. Just off the top of my head, unrecruited Ashe in his and Catherine's paralogue feels like a bigger liability.

I think that the Green units also scale depending on what chapter you are on, since i remember doing the Ingrid paralouge first thing and green unit Dorothea was lvl 21, and reattempting it she was Lvl 23.

Green unit Ashe can one shot the pegs in that chapter snd that’s cool. idk if you can do Hilda’s paralouge without Cyril recruited, but if you can green unit Cyril would probably be the worst green unit, since what makes Cyril so good is his combat arts which the green units don’t have.

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Made a different topic for separate route tier list since I think thats more useful. Hopefully it doesn't get closed

I tried to make one but i have no experience with making posts and put in the same amount of info the op of this post did. I will admit it was poorly made.

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