Is Edelgard responsible for *Spoiler's* death

[Gustav iv]

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

That's not how she behaves when you "rescued" Monica,

she told Death Knight he's having too much fun fighting Byleth, and proudly proclaimed she's the flame emperor that will reforge the world.

Doesn't sound a bit like someone forced to participated in an assassination against friends as a captive.

What does that have to do with the part where jeralt dies and the village is burning and they confront Solon and kronya. your comparing apples to oranges. Once she sees what twisted did she realizes it was a mistake..

Edited September 1, 2019 by Gustav iv

[Timlugia]

49 minutes ago, Gustav iv said:

What does that have to do with the part where jeralt dies and the village is burning and they confront Solon and kronya. your comparing apples to oranges. Once she sees what twisted did she realizes it was a mistake..

Right, she realized TWISTD was a mistake, but still allows their plan to kill Jeralt in the next chapter, concealed their plan to kill Byleth in the following, and allied with them all the way to the end in all routes.

You could even argue that she encourages Byleth to chase after Monica into the forest, knowing that TWISTD was there, was trying to lure Byleth into the trap. Consider she never believed you would sided with her in war phase (which she said herself in her route), it makes totally sense get rid of Jeralt and Byleth through TWISTD early. Even she didn't give the order herself, she at least agree with their plan and helped implanted Monica into the class.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Timlugia

[Hauke]

6 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Right, she realized TWISTD was a mistake, but still allows their plan to kill Jeralt in the next chapter, concealed their plan to kill Byleth in the following, and allied with them all the way to the end in all routes. 

You could even argue that she encourages Byleth to chase after Monica into the forest, knowing that TWISTD was there, was trying to lure Byleth into the trap. Consider she never believed you would sided with her in war phase (which she said herself in her route), it makes totally sense get rid of Jeralt and Byleth through TWISTD early. Even she didn't give the order herself, she at least agree with their plan and helped implanted Monica into the class. 

That makes absolutelly no sense with her personbality and her affection for Byleth. You should listen to Edge of Dawn or listen to her conversations with Byleth.

Also she has no choice other than helping TWISTD. She is under their control, not the other way around. It's pretty obvious she didn't likes it to work with them. But they are in control of the whole empire and her family. Also Monica was always around her. There was no chance to reveal her identity without them noticing. Monica was there to have an eye on Edelgard.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Hauke

[Timlugia]

She wishes you to join her, but she never expected you to join, this is very clear from what she said in her route, especially before final battle.

Using Edge of Dawn as support is quite weak, first there is no official interpretation, while general theme is quite clear, some lines can be interpreted differently. And while the song is played in route you didn't join her, it makes far less sense in BL or GD path since you never had much interaction with her to begin with. She at best admire you and your combat ability in those routes, as discussed here on another thread. Even at the coronation she told you this is likely the last time you will see her, again because she believe you wouldn't side with her.

 

Also I think you, like many others way over estimated TWISTD actual control on her. Multiple times she made threat against Thales in front of his face, from "There is no salvation to your kind", to later she openly talks about hostility once they defeated the church, which Thales responded that they would be waiting for her. Hubert also made it public that they won't be ally for long after war.

If she was really just a hostage under them, there is no way she would dare to threaten them in such open manner without fear of retribution or even direct death.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Timlugia

[Hauke]

Yes she was able to threat Thales, becasue he KNOWS she has no power and because they control her. That's the only reason. Why did you think they can order the flame emperor around?

Also even in BL Edelgard says it's hurt her to hurt you and that she didn't want to fight against you. GHuberts commend on Monica also suggests he and Edelgard are not happy about her being around.

Edelgard absolutelly has no reason why she would kill Byleth. She has absolutelly no desire to do so. It would totally out of character for her to intentionally trying to kill Byleth at this stage.

[Landmaster]

On 9/1/2019 at 6:27 AM, Hauke said:

Yes she was able to threat Thales, becasue he KNOWS she has no power and because they control her. That's the only reason. Why did you think they can order the flame emperor around?

Also even in BL Edelgard says it's hurt her to hurt you and that she didn't want to fight against you. GHuberts commend on Monica also suggests he and Edelgard are not happy about her being around.

Edelgard absolutelly has no reason why she would kill Byleth. She has absolutelly no desire to do so. It would totally out of character for her to intentionally trying to kill Byleth at this stage.

That doesn't make any sense. You can't threaten people who you have no power over. TWSITD do not control Edelgard. She is perfectly capable of operating on her own in Part II. They didn't order her around as the Flame Emperor, either. She still behaved on her own then. She only lacks enough power to stop them, but she's far from powerless.

Also Edelgard does have every reason to kill Byleth. She would kill anyone who stood in the way of her ideals. Whether she tried to kill Byleth in the Academy could be debatable, and she may not have wanted to, but she still would do it and threatened to do it at the Holy Tomb.

[Hauke]

3 hours ago, Landmaster said:

That doesn't make any sense. You can't threaten people who you have no power over. TWSITD do not control Edelgard. She is perfectly capable of operating on her own in Part II. They didn't order her around as the Flame Emperor, either. She still behaved on her own then. She only lacks enough power to stop them, but she's far from powerless.

Also Edelgard does have every reason to kill Byleth. She would kill anyone who stood in the way of her ideals. Whether she tried to kill Byleth in the Academy could be debatable, and she may not have wanted to, but she still would do it and threatened to do it at the Holy Tomb.

Of course you can threaten people you have no power over. Also they DO order her around and placed Monica in the monastery to control her. They control the whole emnpire and her father. They threat her as their creation and order her around all the time. After the timeskip she was crowned Emperor, so a completelly different situation. She wasn't Emperor during the school phase.  And even then the one time she goes against them they nuke Arianhrod because she worked against them. They have absolutelly control over her otherwise she wouldn't work with them.

[Landmaster]

4 hours ago, Hauke said:

Of course you can threaten people you have no power over. Also they DO order her around and placed Monica in the monastery to control her. They control the whole emnpire and her father. They threat her as their creation and order her around all the time. After the timeskip she was crowned Emperor, so a completelly different situation. She wasn't Emperor during the school phase.  And even then the one time she goes against them they nuke Arianhrod because she worked against them. They have absolutelly control over her otherwise she wouldn't work with them.

No you can't, otherwise they wouldn't take her seriously. Monica isn't there to control Edelgard, they're both there plotting together. Controlling her father is more Duke Aegir and Thales himself than the whole of TWSITD. But they don't order her around, she has freedom to act about on her own. The only thing she can't do is straight up attack them because they have nukes in the back. She works with them because she needs them to make her goals a reality.

[Julian Solo]

Oops wring thread

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Julian Solo

[Hauke]

5 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

No you can't, otherwise they wouldn't take her seriously. Monica isn't there to control Edelgard, they're both there plotting together. Controlling her father is more Duke Aegir and Thales himself than the whole of TWSITD. But they don't order her around, she has freedom to act about on her own. The only thing she can't do is straight up attack them because they have nukes in the back. She works with them because she needs them to make her goals a reality. 

If they were just plotting together why is Hubert concerned about Monica? They are not working together and it's pretty obvious that Edelgard is not enjoying that Monica is near her. It's pretty obvious that Monica search Edelgards near and not the other way around.

[Nihilem]

2 hours ago, Hauke said:

If they were just plotting together why is Hubert concerned about Monica? They are not working together and it's pretty obvious that Edelgard is not enjoying that Monica is near her. It's pretty obvious that Monica search Edelgards near and not the other way around.

Yeah but Monicas Objective was abducting the students to make more demonic beasts. And probably getting her hands on the crest stones if there were a possibillity for that. Just because she is close to Edelgard while doing that doesnt mean she is a watch dog. And I dont see any evidence for it.

 

Hubert concerns dont count, he is concerned about everyone getting in a 10m radius around Edelgard.

[Hauke]

3 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

Yeah but Monicas Objective was abducting the students to make more demonic beasts. And probably getting her hands on the crest stones if there were a possibillity for that. Just because she is close to Edelgard while doing that doesnt mean she is a watch dog. And I dont see any evidence for it.

 

Hubert concerns dont count, he is concerned about everyone getting in a 10m radius around Edelgard.

Hubert is not an idiot. We should he blame Monica in front of other people (he does so even if Byleth is in another house) if she is an ally of Edelgard? Do you have any source to beliefe that Edelgard allied with Kronya on her own interest? She doesn't seem happy about Monica at all.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Hauke

[Landmaster]

10 hours ago, Hauke said:

If they were just plotting together why is Hubert concerned about Monica? They are not working together and it's pretty obvious that Edelgard is not enjoying that Monica is near her. It's pretty obvious that Monica search Edelgards near and not the other way around.

Because Hubert doesn't like TWSITD? Or anyone for that matter. And yes, they are working together. There's nothing to suggest Edelgard doesn't enjoy Monica being around her.

[Dark Holy Elf]

11 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

Because Hubert doesn't like TWSITD? Or anyone for that matter. And yes, they are working together. There's nothing to suggest Edelgard doesn't enjoy Monica being around her.

Edelgard comments to Thales that Monica's presence is "annoying" in the scene following Jeralt's death (which I believe is on all routes).

Edelgard is also quite happy to kill Kronya in their boss conversation. They are not friends, and Edelgard does not like her.

[Landmaster]

16 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Edelgard comments to Thales that Monica's presence is "annoying" in the scene following Jeralt's death (which I believe is on all routes).

Edelgard is also quite happy to kill Kronya in their boss conversation. They are not friends, and Edelgard does not like her.

I mean in the scene itself. She doesn't like her in general, obviously, but she isn't irritated by her when she's in the Monastery. They are still working together, Monica's not there keeping tabs on Edelgard.

[Dark Holy Elf]

She doesn't overtly indicate any annoyance with Monica because that would blow Monica's cover. But unless you thought she started disliking Monica as soon as she killed Jeralt (which... is possible), she could very much have been quietly doing so during their time together, and overall I'm inclined to think she was. She doesn't like the slitherers much in general, in any scene she shares with them.

[Ivan Tridelan]

13 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

She doesn't overtly indicate any annoyance with Monica because that would blow Monica's cover. But unless you thought she started disliking Monica as soon as she killed Jeralt (which... is possible), she could very much have been quietly doing so during their time together, and overall I'm inclined to think she was. She doesn't like the slitherers much in general, in any scene she shares with them.

And blowing Monica's cover would almost inevitably blow her own cover. Basically the only thing TWSITD and Edelgard have in common is bringing down the church. El hates them and their methods and they treat her like a pawn in their schemes (considering she's basically Nemesis 2.0 to them, this is reasonable). Arianrhod gets demolished because she took out Cornelia (who's one of the Slithers).

Is El complicit in their actions, even unwillingly? Absolutely. Is she working with them? Grudgingly, but yes. Does she like them in any way? Hell no.

Incidentally, there's another thread that mentions a discussion about the Slithers' actions during the school phase. It makes a lot of sense and is definitely worth a read.

[axlorg89]

On 8/24/2019 at 10:07 AM, DefyingFates said:

Not directly, but since she's pretty much an enabler for TWSITD she's still guilty of being an accomplice at the very least. Heck, even though she despises what happened in Remire, she pretty much gave them a blank cheque to do whatever they wanted as long as they helped her too (and even gave them the Death Knight to use) so she's arguably just as culpable for everything else they did too.

Agreed. She's an accomplice and should hold some of the responsibility, even though she isn't that one that directly took the knife. The way she consoled the professor after has no hints of guilt, as if she wasn't, at the very least, enabling it. Rubbed me the wrong way for sure. That an I'm sure it was also a benefit to her as well. Taking out a skilled captain's knight and commander before the war makes sense why she can't be entirely torn over her professor losing their parent.

Edited September 10, 2019 by axlorg89

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Jumping in to say that how Edelgard reacted after Jeralt's death was my beginning of straight up disliking Edelgard as a person and also was the start of casting doubts on her. Even a friend, who has never played FE before and is now doing a BE run, was majorly put off by Edelgard's actions during those few chapters. Whether willingly or not, she is allied with TWSITD and showed exactly zero remorse for Jeralt's death so she must have been okay with it on some level. She's a good villain but that doesn't make her a good person and yes, in my eyes, she is at least partially responsible for his death.

[Hauke]

4 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Jumping in to say that how Edelgard reacted after Jeralt's death was my beginning of straight up disliking Edelgard as a person and also was the start of casting doubts on her. Even a friend, who has never played FE before and is now doing a BE run, was majorly put off by Edelgard's actions during those few chapters. Whether willingly or not, she is allied with TWSITD and showed exactly zero remorse for Jeralt's death so she must have been okay with it on some level. She's a good villain but that doesn't make her a good person and yes, in my eyes, she is at least partially responsible for his death.

Edelgard is just not very emotional because she saw a lot of death in her own family. If your whole family was murdered by experiments you wouldn't react much if the father of a good friend would die, especially if you have no connection with his death. Why should she show remorse if she had nearly nothing to do with it? She let Monica into the monastery but she couldn't do anything against it. That's the only thing she had to do with it.

[xchickengirlx]

I have to say, doing my BL run, The Flame Emperor and Jeralt's death is so much more impactful in BL than how it was when doing my GD run.

Before Jeralt gets killed, you are treated to a cut scene with Dimitri spying on the Flame Emperor and that's where he gets back the dagger he gave to Edelgard but doesn't want to believe what could possibly be the truth.  All the dialogue with Dimitri before and after you kill Kronya also made me care more about Jeralt's death. Because honestly? I could really care less about Jeralt's death in my GD run. Since Claude doesn't know what its like to go through a tragic loss of losing parents and loved ones like Dimitri does, there wasn't much of a emotional impact btw Byleth and Claude when Jeralt died.

Also I definitely agree that Edelgard would probably have been perfectly happy if Byleth never escaped from the Darkness Realm that Solon put them into.

Think about it, getting rid of Byleth before starting her starting her war against the Church, would have made Edelgard unstoppable. She's be able to steamroll over Dimitri effortlessly, and Rhea not having Byleth to fight for her. Sure in BE-E Edelgard has Byleth to help her take down Rhea, but I'm sure Edelgard could have still found a way to do it w/put Byleth's power, she'd probably have to rely on TWSID more or something.

Edited September 10, 2019 by xchickengirlx

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

46 minutes ago, Hauke said:

Edelgard is just not very emotional because she saw a lot of death in her own family. If your whole family was murdered by experiments you wouldn't react much if the father of a good friend would die, especially if you have no connection with his death. Why should she show remorse if she had nearly nothing to do with it? She let Monica into the monastery but she couldn't do anything against it. That's the only thing she had to do with it.

She's not just "not emotional" she's downright cruel, telling you to get over something that happened days ago when she's obviously still hung up on her own family dying. There's simply no excuse for her actions and that is coming from someone who has lost family in quite awful ways. She did have something to do with it. She's shown agency against TWSITD several times including pre-skip and continually allied with them despite the horrendous acts they made. If you continue allying with someone after Remire, everything they do after that you have a part in, period. Even if it's just an accomplice role, she had a role. She is responsible for encouraging their actions. If she had absolutely denounced them and refused to work with them then maybe you'd have an argument, but she has the power to (again, as she's shown several times) and just doesn't. So yeah, she's responsible for everything but driving the knife in Jeralt's back.

[Hauke]

5 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

She's not just "not emotional" she's downright cruel, telling you to get over something that happened days ago when she's obviously still hung up on her own family dying. There's simply no excuse for her actions and that is coming from someone who has lost family in quite awful ways. She did have something to do with it. She's shown agency against TWSITD several times including pre-skip and continually allied with them despite the horrendous acts they made. If you continue allying with someone after Remire, everything they do after that you have a part in, period. Even if it's just an accomplice role, she had a role. She is responsible for encouraging their actions. If she had absolutely denounced them and refused to work with them then maybe you'd have an argument, but she has the power to (again, as she's shown several times) and just doesn't. So yeah, she's responsible for everything but driving the knife in Jeralt's back. 

It was basically a way to tell 'It doesn't help if you are down, you have to keep going'

Also she didn't ally with them. At this point she was still a puppet of them. They control the whole empire and her father. Do you really think she has a choice? She wasn't Emperor yet, she was just the princess of an empire which is under their control. Thy created her.

Which "power" does she have before her coronatioN?

Edited September 10, 2019 by Hauke

[dragontamer]

Edelgard is absolutely responsible for Byleth's (near) death in the 1st chapter. Flame Emperor hires bandits to try and kill "as many nobles as possible", and almost gets herself killed in that process (until Byleth blocks the axe with Byleth's back).

 

Edelgard's morality is twisted from the start, even ignoring TWSITD, Edelgard's plans involved killing students at the Monastery and causing havoc.

[Arachnofiend]

1 hour ago, xchickengirlx said:

I have to say, doing my BL run, The Flame Emperor and Jeralt's death is so much more impactful in BL than how it was when doing my GD run.

Before Jeralt gets killed, you are treated to a cut scene with Dimitri spying on the Flame Emperor and that's where he gets back the dagger he gave to Edelgard but doesn't want to believe what could possibly be the truth.  All the dialogue with Dimitri before and after you kill Kronya also made me care more about Jeralt's death. Because honestly? I could really care less about Jeralt's death in my GD run. Since Claude doesn't know what its like to go through a tragic loss of losing parents and loved ones like Dimitri does, there wasn't much of a emotional impact btw Byleth and Claude when Jeralt died.

Also I definitely agree that Edelgard would probably have been perfectly happy if Byleth never escaped from the Darkness Realm that Solon put them into.

Think about it, getting rid of Byleth before starting her starting her war against the Church, would have made Edelgard unstoppable. She's be able to steamroll over Dimitri effortlessly, and Rhea not having Byleth to fight for her. Sure in BE-E Edelgard has Byleth to help her take down Rhea, but I'm sure Edelgard could have still found a way to do it w/put Byleth's power, she'd probably have to rely on TWSID more or something.

Edelgard without Byleth can do basically nothing about the Slitherers. It's made abundantly clear through part one that Edelgard desperately wants Byleth on her side, to the point of it being a conflict with Hubert.