Is Edelgard responsible for *Spoiler's* death

[CyberNinja]

3 hours ago, xchickengirlx said:

Before Jeralt gets killed, you are treated to a cut scene with Dimitri spying on the Flame Emperor and that's where he gets back the dagger he gave to Edelgard but doesn't want to believe what could possibly be the truth.  All the dialogue with Dimitri before and after you kill Kronya also made me care more about Jeralt's death. Because honestly? I could really care less about Jeralt's death in my GD run. Since Claude doesn't know what its like to go through a tragic loss of losing parents and loved ones like Dimitri does, there wasn't much of a emotional impact btw Byleth and Claude when Jeralt died.

The cutscene is "the Enemy" and it happens after Jeralt's death since it's literally just you and Dimitri overhearing the aftermath of Kronya murdering Jeralt.

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

She's not just "not emotional" she's downright cruel, telling you to get over something that happened days ago when she's obviously still hung up on her own family dying. There's simply no excuse for her actions and that is coming from someone who has lost family in quite awful ways.

I felt the point of that scene is that this is exactly how she is coping with her own family dying. That she feels it is better to respond to heartbreak by going out and making a difference. It's entirely consistent with her own characterization.

I have no objection to calling it cruel, for all that it's probably not the adjective I would personally use. (Cruelty often implies that the hurt it causes is willful, which I would argue is not the case here, but it does not necessarily mean that.)

[MrPerson0]

10 hours ago, Hauke said:

Do you really think she has a choice? She wasn't Emperor yet, she was just the princess of an empire which is under their control. Thy created her. 

She had a choice to not believe TWSitD's lies and side with the Church instead, but unfortunately, she hates the church too much.

[Hauke]

3 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

She had a choice to not believe TWSitD's lies and side with the Church instead, but unfortunately, she hates the church too much.

That's a stupid argument. She does believe this stories because they were passed by her family for generations. Also she IS true. The church does nothing against the crest system. Also of course everybody her would rather believe Rhea in RL, right? Also the church is lying too. If Edelgard sides with the church how would this get ride of the crest system? Rhea would NEVER help her get right of the crest system.

[Nihilem]

2 hours ago, Hauke said:

That's a stupid argument. She does believe this stories because they were passed by her family for generations. Also she IS true. The church does nothing against the crest system.

She is true with what? Most of her stories regarding Nemesis or the goddess are definetly wrong. Nice lies created by the TWSITD. They even mook her for thinking Nemesis to be some kind of underdog hero.

 

2 hours ago, Hauke said:

If Edelgard sides with the church how would this get ride of the crest system? Rhea would NEVER help her get right of the crest system.

And for that statement you have evidence?

Because we know for a fact that Rhea hates the 10 Elites and the crest system they have created (she tells us so on GD route after freeing her). So its more like a necessary evil for her. Quite similiar to how the TWSITD are seen by Edelgard. And we also know that Edelgard only starts to act against them when she knows that she has the power to replace them. Assuming that Rhea would do the same if she can be convinced that she will get away with it without creating a continent wide war is quite logical to me.

[MrPerson0]

3 hours ago, Hauke said:

She does believe this stories because they were passed by her family for generations.

Where said family was likely lied to by TWSitD as well.

3 hours ago, Hauke said:

Also she IS true. The church does nothing against the crest system. Also of course everybody her would rather believe Rhea in RL, right? Also the church is lying too.

Just because the church is lying doesn't automatically make them evil. The reason they spread the lie was so innocents could be saved (children of the ten elites) from the potential wrath of the people. We have seen what people have done to the original owner of Marianne's crest after all.

[Hauke]

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

Where said family was likely lied to by TWSitD as well.

Just because the church is lying doesn't automatically make them evil. The reason they spread the lie was so innocents could be saved (children of the ten elites) from the potential wrath of the people. We have seen what people have done to the original owner of Marianne's crest after all. 

There is no "evil" in three houses. Maybe the TWSITD. But neither Edelgard or the Church are evil. But the church is against everything Edelgards wants. Do you really think Rhea would say "Oh of cvourse Edelgard. Let's get ride of the crests."?

And I never said it weren't lies. But she does beliefe the lies because that's what her family had passed down for centuries. Would you believe a church which clearly tells lies more than your own family? It's totally understandable that she believes this stories. Everyone would believe them. Except the allmighty internet people who never believed a lie in their whole life. People are judging Edelgard by some higher standard which theyself never could fulfit.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hauke

[Diovani Bressan]

Evilgard is a very complex character... I understand why she does what she does in the game... I don't agree with her, but I understand her... kinda...

[CyberNinja]

1 hour ago, Hauke said:

There is no "evil" in three houses. Maybe the TWSITD. But neither Edelgard or the Church are evil. But the church is against everything Edelgards wants. Do you really think Rhea would say "Oh of cvourse Edelgard. Let's get ride of the crests."?

And I never said it weren't lies. But she does beliefe the lies because that's what her family had passed down for centuries. Would you believe a church which clearly tells lies more than your own family? It's totally understandable that she believes this stories. Everyone would believe them. Except the allmighty internet people who never believed a lie in their whole life. People are judging Edelgard by some higher standard which theyself never could fulfit.

I'd be fine with it if people kept a consistent standard, or backed up their statements with traceable quotes.

[Nihilem]

1 hour ago, Hauke said:

There is no "evil" in three houses. Maybe the TWSITD. But neither Edelgard or the Church are evil. But the church is against everything Edelgards wants. Do you really think Rhea would say "Oh of cvourse Edelgard. Let's get ride of the crests."?

Well actually yes I do.

There is no evidence that suggest the church would interfere when the empire would make reforms to create more equality between crest owners and not crest owners. On the contrary, there is a lot of evidence that they would not interfere.

 

But if you have support-talks, book chapters or any other text directly from the game that suggest Rhea would go to war with the empire because Edelgard wants to take the privilege of the imperial nobillity away I am happy to hear it.

[Rose482]

55 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Evilgard is a very complex character... I understand why she does what she does in the game... I don't agree with her, but I understand her... kinda...

Evilgard <3 lmao, I'm going to use that nickname from now on.

 

As for the topic of this thread.....she sorta is, although not directly of course. It would had been nice if there was apart in her route which Byleth called her out on it though, but of course Evilgard getting called out on anything is almost unheard of in FE16, especially in her route. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Rose482

[Diovani Bressan]

1 minute ago, Rose482 said:

Evilgard ❤️ lmao, I'm going to use that nickname from now on.

I started to use Evilgard since I learned the truth about her. This nickname is perfect to her, especially in the Blue Lions path.

[Troykv]

Evil Guard? I remember Gard means Guard or something similar

[CyberNinja]

1 hour ago, Troykv said:

Evil Guard? I remember Gard means Guard or something similar

Big reveals here: The Flame Emperor was the Gatekeeper all along.

[Hanes]

Not directly but it depends on what type of death we are talking about. If all human lives lost are taken into consideration then yes, starting the war obviously killed soldiers but if we are talking innocent lives then not really... or on BE at least, but Arianrhod was mostly a military base that was destroyed by TWSitD... HOWEVER she is complicit in the act by allying herself with terrorists so... yeah, atleast for the civilian lives taken there although indirectly.

Also Evilgard is a bit of a stretch... she is a villain but she isn't really immoral and wicked but just stupid a lot of the time and probably why she starts a war like she does is because she has 2 crests, people with 2 crests live significantly shorter lives so maybe? But generally she does ask the enemy to surrender and doesn't go hunting for innocents... on BE atleast.

EDIT: Dumb oof but anyways my thoughts on the OP

Not really, she doesn't control TWSitD and I don't think she was in on the killing Jeralt thing and like why did they even do it? Jeralt doesn't trust the church so like it's possible he would have accompanied Byleth and Edelgard on their war on the church... so not really... I mean we don't know if she was in on the plan or not. They talk after the event but she calls them out on their vile acts so I atleast don't think she is a hypocrite.

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by This boi uses Nino

[MrPerson0]

2 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

but if we are talking innocent lives then not really...

She hired bandits to kill innocents (Dimitri, Claude, and the other students) at the beginning of the game, and in GD, she was using the citizens of Enbarr as meat shields. Even if you don't want to count the GD one (since that happens in one route), we know she's willing to take the lives of innocents to achieve her goal.

[Hanes]

1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

She hired bandits to kill innocents (Dimitri, Claude, and the other students) at the beginning of the game, and in GD, she was using the citizens of Enbarr as meat shields. Even if you don't want to count the GD one (since that happens in one route), we know she's willing to take the lives of innocents to achieve her goal.

Well yeah that's why I said BE atleast but we know that in every other route she is quite evil while BE Edelgard is the one we should discuss and there she is still pretty conflictive...

[MrPerson0]

Just now, This boi uses Nino said:

Well yeah that's why I said BE atleast

She hired bandits before the game started. This is something that is consistent through all routes.

[Hanes]

2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

She hired bandits before the game started. This is something that is consistent through all routes.

That is true but what if, and this is a bit of a stretch, she hired bandits to kill them? As in she hired bandits so that they would attack and then she could kill ciminals? We know she already has a pretty distinct view on justice so it then got out of hand? Because it's weird Edelgard ran with the other 2 lords to escape rather than hide in the forest or something so that then Dimitri and Claude would die.

[MrPerson0]

10 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

As in she hired bandits so that they would attack and then she could kill ciminals?

Definitely a stretch since it really wouldn't help her other than killing some small criminals, especially ones who have nothing to do with her issues in the first place.

She hired them because she knows that Dimitri, Claude, and the other nobles would likely be the main ones who would block her way to a unified Fodlan. Don't think she told to bandits to differentiate her housemates, so it seems she was willing to get them killed as well.

Edited September 12, 2019 by MrPerson0

[Julian Solo]

3 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Not directly but it depends on what type of death we are talking about. If all human lives lost are taken into consideration then yes, starting the war obviously killed soldiers but if we are talking innocent lives then not really... or on BE at least, but Arianrhod was mostly a military base that was destroyed by TWSitD... HOWEVER she is complicit in the act by allying herself with terrorists so... yeah, atleast for the civilian lives taken there although indirectly.

Also Evilgard is a bit of a stretch... she is a villain but she isn't really immoral and wicked but just stupid a lot of the time and probably why she starts a war like she does is because she has 2 crests, people with 2 crests live significantly shorter lives so maybe? But generally she does ask the enemy to surrender and doesn't go hunting for innocents... on BE atleast.

EDIT: Dumb oof but anyways my thoughts on the OP

Not really, she doesn't control TWSitD and I don't think she was in on the killing Jeralt thing and like why did they even do it? Jeralt doesn't trust the church so like it's possible he would have accompanied Byleth and Edelgard on their war on the church... so not really... I mean we don't know if she was in on the plan or not. They talk after the event but she calls them out on their vile acts so I atleast don't think she is a hypocrite.

 

Kronya got salty Jeralt stopped her beast invasion of the monastery. She thought a few beasts would take out Rhea and the knights the arguably strongest warriors on the continent. It wasn't planned. She just screwed up badly as the Flame Emperor was trying to seduce you to there side throughout all of part 1.