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Is Edelgard responsible for *Spoiler's* death

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To the people saying Edelgard is responsible, what was she supposed to do after saving Monica from the dungeon? All we know is that Edel spent time with Monica, but we have no clue whatsoever what they were talking about. We have literally no knowledge that Edelgard had any knowledge whatsoever of twsitd's goals. A lot of people seem to imply that Edelgard and twsitd had a glass window into each other's plans and goals, but I kind of got the impression that Edelgard knew virtually nothing about them at all or what they were trying to do. 

Also, what's all this talk about smuggling Monica into the monastery? Why is that even relevant. The crime took place outside of the monastery to begin with. If Monica was instantly exiled, then the exact same plan would have happened regardless. I don't see how Edelgard is even remotely to blame unless you assume she had knowledge into Monica's goals. For all she knew, Monica wasn't even present during the beast experiment of that chapter.

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I'm pretty sure Edelgard didn't had any other choice than smuggle Monica into the monastery. Monica was most likely there to control Edelgard for these who slither in the dark. They are in control of Edelgard, not the other way around.

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Sadly likely indirectly like other events in the story.....even if she tried to make them not harm Jeralt it clearly wasn't in her control but obviously working with that group she obviously should've expect this. Also good riddance to them all was happy by all of their demise was VERY satisfying!

 

Edited by Mage Goddess Lysithea

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4 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Funny, she straight up calling you a lier if you agree to help her after Remire. She also orders her general to kill you if you attempt to resist in the Holt Tomb.

Edelgard can't read Byleth and has severe trust issues. She assumed he was lying if you chose to ally and will confront you later as Edelgard. If you say you were telling the truth she will use her surprised/sweatfrop sprite. This shows that she was surprised and misread you completely, even unhappy at the realization that she effectively threw away her chance at an alliance with her professor which was a major goal. She essentially implies she's the emperor and promises a reveal soon as a way to salvage this but then Jerald and the rest happens.

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3 hours ago, Natsu_T said:

A lot of people seem to imply that Edelgard and twsitd had a glass window into each other's plans and goals, but I kind of got the impression that Edelgard knew virtually nothing about them at all or what they were trying to do.

Of note to this is the student crest stone incident, where Edelgard as the Flame Emperor states she would've intervened had she known about it, Solon capturing Byleth,and, more importantly, the destruction of Arianrhod.TWSITD were merciless enough to nuke the fortress they just captured because the Black Eagle Strike Force struck down Cornelia. I find it highly unlikely that Edelgard had any idea they were planning this.

Also the game very subtly implies that Edelgard, regardless of whether you S-Support her or not, has feelings for Byleth. Killing you crush's father ain't exactly winning you any favors.

 

...now I want to see a fanfic of Edelgard crying in her room every time after she indirectly hurts Byleth.

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4 hours ago, Natsu_T said:

To the people saying Edelgard is responsible, what was she supposed to do after saving Monica from the dungeon? All we know is that Edel spent time with Monica, but we have no clue whatsoever what they were talking about. We have literally no knowledge that Edelgard had any knowledge whatsoever of twsitd's goals. A lot of people seem to imply that Edelgard and twsitd had a glass window into each other's plans and goals, but I kind of got the impression that Edelgard knew virtually nothing about them at all or what they were trying to do. 

There are a lot of assumptions to make, but Occam's Razor leans towards Edelgard allowing Kronika into the monastery, or at least knowing what her deal was after either Solon or the Death Knight lets Kronika in.

Edelgard is involved with TWSITD. Monica was found during the Death Knight incident where they were siphoning blood from Flayn, which is an event Edelgard wasn't super jazzed about, but also didn't really raise a huge stink about. Monica then exclusively talks to Edelgard and Hubert within the monastery, and is involved with Edelgard's plot to turn students into beasts, which is the incident where Jeralt eats it. Afterward Edelgard continues to work with TWSITD and Kronika without having many grievances about the incident.

TWSITD and Edelgard obviously don't have the same goals or know what the other is trying to accomplish, but Kronika killing Jeralt happens in the middle of an Edelgard plot, and the next time we see TWSITD and Edelgard, they're working together. I think you're undermining how much Edelgard and TWSITD's plots overlap, especially pre-timeskip. Even if Edelgard didn't mean for Kronika to kill Jeralt, there's still quite a lot of blood on her hands due to how much she enabled them.

4 hours ago, Natsu_T said:

Also, what's all this talk about smuggling Monica into the monastery? Why is that even relevant. The crime took place outside of the monastery to begin with. If Monica was instantly exiled, then the exact same plan would have happened regardless. I don't see how Edelgard is even remotely to blame unless you assume she had knowledge into Monica's goals. For all she knew, Monica wasn't even present during the beast experiment of that chapter.

Monica was one of the students involved in the crest beast incident on/near campus that leads to Jeralt's death, which is pretty important for her actually being there. It would have been harder for Kronika to slip in if she was exiled from the school, or just never allowed in. Just like Solon and Jeritza would have had a much harder time if they weren't masquerading as teachers.

Again, this is all based on a lot of assumptions, so you can just hand wave it all, but the game really doesn't seem like it's pointing in that direction. The game seems to imply that Edelgard was aware of Kronika and her presence, and either allowed her on campus or allowed her to stay on campus to continue plotting with TWSITD during school(She did deliberately get put into the BE house), but didn't know or expect her to kill Jeralt.

Edited by Slumber

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I think she was instrumental in the plan to assassinate Jeralt, since it's known she had been working with TWITSD before the prologue chapter. Because while Monica was also a mole that TWITSD probably could have installed without Edelgard's assistance (They got Tomas in, but it also took them six years or something?), It seemed like Monica was definitely her subordinate, even if her behavior gets her off the rails. I think her not expecting Byleth to join her in Chapter 11 isn't her guilt speaking, it's just logic, why would he join the group that killed his only family? In her own words, Edelgard expected she had to walk her path alone, so she knew she had to supress any feelings she might have held. Besides hate. Hate is something you can use.

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Think you're all taken this a bit far. Last I recall the turning to beasts is just an extension of the remire experiment. Jerald's death is less an assassination and more the whim of kronya who is shown not to be mentally stable. Edelgard is shown to have nothing but disgust following these events from the sole point we get to see the flame emperor straight up threaten twsitd, information that We get to know out of character so we have no reason to doubt the validity of the event. Twsitd interest is in Byleth, they have little care for Jerald as they did for any other knight. Edelgard is shown that given opportunity she'll kill or disrupt the plans of twsitd but is generally under their thumb and unable to act. It's also clear she'll tend to slip up around Byleth and let on more than she intended or shoul i.e. Implicitly revealing her identity as the flame emperor after remire, alluding to the plans of twsitd such that even Hubert is having a double take. When analyzing Edelgard you can't consider her a rational actor or one with all the information especially in regards to Byleth or twsitd but for different reasons. 

 

In all routes that Byleth doesn't join her she relies more on twsitd to achieve her goals, this enables greater success but offers her less opportunity to break free. Despite this she consistently shows that she'd rather have Byleth as an ally than an enemy so there is little reason to believe she'd be willingly party to attempts to kill Byleth except immediately following his merging with Sorhis, for obvious reasons I hope.

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Where is it suggested/stated that the crest stone experiments in the chapel was Edelgard's plan? Genuinely curious.

 

Going further back I was quite taken aback at the idea that Edelgard planned and was counting on the trap in the sealed forest and Hubert didn't even know, my reading was that Hubert was suprised that Edelgard was pointing out to Byleth that it was a trap. (and possibly suprised that she was here to kill Kronya regardless of the trap, but that's more speculative) 

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No, I don't think Edelgard was responsible for Jeralt's death. If anything, I feel that Monica/Kronya is more or less clingy to Edelgard to keep her in check, just because if Edelgard does something out of line to TWiSTD goal's then Kronya can easily like kill a bunch of students or do something just as bad, which would end up causing more trouble for Edelgard in the long run. I feel that Edelgard is more or less a puppet of TWSiTD, it's just in BE-E route she is actively trying to turn the tables against them (considering she has Byleth who is a pretty big resource for her).

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3 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

Jerald's death is less an assassination and more the whim of kronya who is shown not to be mentally stable.

TWSitD saw Byleth as a threat to them. They knew that the only way to get to him outside of the church was through revenge, so that's why they chose to kill Jeralt.

As I mentioned earlier in the topic, even though Edelgard was not directly responsible for Jeralt's death, she failed to tell anyone about who Monica truly was, and thus, was responsible indirectly.

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14 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

TWSitD saw Byleth as a threat to them. They knew that the only way to get to him outside of the church was through revenge, so that's why they chose to kill Jeralt.

As I mentioned earlier in the topic, even though Edelgard was not directly responsible for Jeralt's death, she failed to tell anyone about who Monica truly was, and thus, was responsible indirectly.

I never denied Edelgard's culpability, I just disagreed on how much control and willingness she had in her part, a number of people on this site have been giving very good inaccurate information on plot threads, on both sides.

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10 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

TWSitD saw Byleth as a threat to them. They knew that the only way to get to him outside of the church was through revenge, so that's why they chose to kill Jeralt.

As I mentioned earlier in the topic, even though Edelgard was not directly responsible for Jeralt's death, she failed to tell anyone about who Monica truly was, and thus, was responsible indirectly. 

Oh yes. Edelgard should just tell everybody about those who slither in the dark. The guys who have her father under their control, control their whole realm, control her and force her to do stuff she doesn't like. What could possible go wrong if she just tell everybody about them? It's not like they can threat her to nuke the whole capital or anything like that... oh wait. They can. Edelgard has absolutelly no power to opose them at this point.

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Still makes her an associate, no?

If I knew someone was going to shoot up a school or bomb a plane and failed to call police, I am still criminally liable even I didn’t pull the trigger myself. 

 

Even worse in this case since she aided their plan at least by implanting Monica into the class.

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31 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Still makes her an associate, no?

If I knew someone was going to shoot up a school or bomb a plane and failed to call police, I am still criminally liable even I didn’t pull the trigger myself. 

 

Even worse in this case since she aided their plan at least by implanting Monica into the class.

I don’t disagree that she’s an associate but you’re example isn’t 100% correct.

It would be more fitting if there were other schooters/plane bombers ready to kill you and even FBI protection couldn’t save you from being killed.

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Then It just means she weights herself/her plan more than worth of Byleth and Jeralt, who saves her life before.

 

If there was a conspiracy against my friend and their family’s lives. I would do everything even risking myself to stop it. But obviously Edelgard doesn’t treat Byleth or Jeralt the same way, it’s just her character.

Edited by Timlugia

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18 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Then It just means she weights herself/her plan more than worth of Byleth and Jeralt, who saves her life before.

 

If there was a conspiracy against my friend and their family’s lives. I would do everything even risking myself to stop it. But obviously Edelgard doesn’t treat Byleth or Jeralt the same way, it’s just her character.

I don’t disagree. 

She has trust issues and it’s only around the climax of part 1 that she sees Byleth as someone special. That doesn’t mean she was heartless or didn’t care for for Byleth or Jeralt, she just puts her ideals far higher.

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Also I'm pretty sure not much people would risk their own life (those who slither in the dark would have no concerns getting ride of Edelgard or harm her in some other ways) just to safe the father of a guy they like. People don't seem to understand that those who slither in the dark are basically in control of Edelgard. She has no power to opose them. They have nukes and everything. They could kill HER father easily if they wanted itInsert other media

Edited by Hauke

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3 minutes ago, Hauke said:

Also I'm pretty sure not much people would risk their own life (those who slither in the dark would have no concerns getting ride of Edelgard or harm her in some other ways) just to safe the father of a guy they like. People don't seem to understand that those who slither in the dark are basically in control of Edelgard. She has no power to opose them. They have nukes and everything. They could kill HER father easily if they wanted itInsert other media

Most people have expectations of others that they themselves would never do, regardless of what they say. Doubly so for fictional characters, of which we tend to expect better.

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I think you can also simply blame the writing to a certain degree. Pre-Jeralt’s death, it’s so painfully obvious to the player that Monica is evil. If you are playing the GD or BL run since Monica is hanging out with Edelgard and Hubert the entire time. I’m assuming it plays out the same if BE is your house, since the choice of split paths doesn’t happen until ch.11

but that’s not even my issue with the writing. It’s more so the fact that Kronya gets killed off the very next chapter, and then Byleth goes super saiyan. So the impact of Jeralt’s Death and Byleth getting their revenge is kinda lost imo. Then the story jumps into Edelgard declaring war on the Church where the player has to quickly decide to either side with Edelgard or against her if the player is doing a BE run. All these story beats happen too quickly, but at the same time I get that they had to get the story rolling to get to the time skip.

However, I think it might have been better if Kronya lived on, and became a boss to fight on the Crimson Flower route post time skip. That way it could take off some of the blame from Edelgard. It might better exemplify how much Edelgard despises TWSITD, and no make her look like  such a puppet of theirs, idk. 

haven’t done BE yet, and without going back through this thread to find out, but in the Crimson Flower route, does Edelgard ever acknowledge Jeralt’s death with Byleth or show remorse? It just seems like such a odd story point that Byleth/the player would be so forgiving towards Edelgard about Jeralt’s death. I guess the player either has to hand wave off blame towards Edelgard and put all the blame on TWSITD to accept it but still, I think the writing could have handled it all better.

 

Edited by xchickengirlx

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52 minutes ago, Hauke said:

Also I'm pretty sure not much people would risk their own life (those who slither in the dark would have no concerns getting ride of Edelgard or harm her in some other ways) just to safe the father of a guy they like. People don't seem to understand that those who slither in the dark are basically in control of Edelgard. She has no power to opose them. They have nukes and everything. They could kill HER father easily if they wanted itInsert other media

Been a while since I played crimson flower where it was brought up but I don't think Edelgard at this point knows that they have advanced missile technology. 

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1 minute ago, goodperson707 said:

Been a while since I played crimson flower where it was brought up but I don't think Edelgard at this point knows that they have advanced missile technology. 

Maybe she don't but you really think they control her by being nice to her without threating her and make her rember that she is in the weaker position? They have hands on her family and could kill her father whenever they like.

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Shes roggvir (guy executed in solitude) from Skyrim, she let them in and is guilty of at least rendering aid to twsitd, which is a crime by today's standards so yeah she ain't all that sympathetic to me, especially since her path is all based on misinformation.

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48 minutes ago, Hauke said:

Maybe she don't but you really think they control her by being nice to her without threating her and make her rember that she is in the weaker position? They have hands on her family and could kill her father whenever they like.

I'm just pointing something out. 

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5 hours ago, Hauke said:

Also I'm pretty sure not much people would risk their own life (those who slither in the dark would have no concerns getting ride of Edelgard or harm her in some other ways) just to safe the father of a guy they like. People don't seem to understand that those who slither in the dark are basically in control of Edelgard. She has no power to opose them. They have nukes and everything. They could kill HER father easily if they wanted itInsert other media

Problem here is that Byleth is the true target, not Jeralt. so by helping TWISTD, Edelgard is also helping them to kill Byleth

 

Had Sothis not intervened, (which Edelgard didn’t know exist) Byleth would surely die. 

 

It it really makes me feel she’s a hypocrite, calling Byleth a friend and close ally, yet knowingly sending him to his death. Like I said, it’s her character, as long as she can get her end goal, she would do anything including backstabbing Byleth if need to be. (Or blew up Bernadetta as suicide bomb)

Edited by Timlugia

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