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Is Edelgard responsible for *Spoiler's* death

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It's definitely in her character to kill off political rivals because she has her political rivals within her own empire assassinated shortly after she takes the throne. And they are people she likely knows, otherwise she wouldn't be aware of they'd likely go against her plans.

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5 hours ago, axlorg89 said:

It is weird I admit. Isn't really explained on other than Claude being one of her targets, but to say it indiscriminately is weird. I guess in the case Kostas got captured, she wouldn't want her plans to be outed specifically. In any case, there's no proper explanation.

It's always possible that Hubert hired them to kill some nobles. To me, it's implied that that moment was perfect for killing both Dimitri and Clause at the same time.

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1 hour ago, Hauke said:

So my idea how it was, is, that Edelgard ordered Kostas to kill the Teacher. But she did know that Jeralts mercenaries would be there and that Claude, Dimitri and she would be safe because of that. She wanted to get ride of the teacher so that Jeritza would take over as new class teacher, which would make it easier for her to infiltrate the school, since this would basically make her ally her class teacher. Otherwise the whole stuff wouldn't make much sense.

But what you stated doesn't make sense at all. How would Edelgard know that Byleth is going to be inducted as the new teacher, when it was technically because of this situation that the Knights of Seiros found Jeralt and Byleth?

1 hour ago, Hauke said:

There is no reason for Edelgard to order Kostas to kill Dimitri and Claude at all. She doesn't seem like somebody who would kill them in that way. Especially not Dimitri. 

There definitely is a reason she would want to kill them, they are potential rivals against her new world order. Also, try to remember that she outright started a war, so she is alright will killing innocents.

Edited by MrPerson0

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1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

But what you stated doesn't make sense at all. How would Edelgard know that Byleth is going to be inducted as the new teacher, when it was technically because of this situation that the Knights of Seiros found Jeralt and Byleth?

There definitely is a reason she would want to kill them, they are potential rivals against her new world order. Also, try to remember that she outright started a war, so she is alright will killing innocents.

Teacher in this case is most likely referring not to Byleth but to the previous teacher who fled during the bandit attack. 

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30 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

Teacher in this case is most likely referring not to Byleth but to the previous teacher who fled during the bandit attack. 

Ah, in that case, the theory does make sense. However, as far as we know, even if she wanted that was true, she was still allowing the bandits to kill other innocents to make it a cover up.

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A few points here people have made that don't add up (to me):

1) Edelgard smuggled Monica/Kronya into the Academy and inserted her into the class.

My impression: TWSITD inserted Kronya (who I suspect isn't actually Monica, and Solon isn't actually Tomas, those two are dead and were replaced while missing) to keep tabs on Edelgard. Since Monica was BE before she went missing, she was put into the BE house. Hubert actually tries to get Monica to back off of Edelgard.

2) Edelgard was involved in the students -> beasts experiment.

My impression: About as involved as she was in the Remire issue. Namely, affiliated with the group responsible, not part of it and has no control over said group.

3) Edelgard knew about the plot to kill Jeralt and Byleth.

My impression: Maybe she did, but pre-Jeralt's murder she can't say anything with Monica all over her, and post-murder she hints at it being a trap. She obviously wants Byleth on her side and TWSITD murdering Jeralt and almost killing Byleth is a problem for her. It's also possible she used this as an opportunity to weaken TWSITD, considering she's their puppet trying to undermine her masters without winding up destroyed.

4) Why didn't Edelgard tell anyone

My impression: She couldn't. Between Monica monitoring her, possible spies (Tomas = Solon), her own distrustful nature, Rhea killing anyone remotely against her and the question of whether it would even amount to anything (Dmitri can't do jack with the Kingdom in shambles thanks to TWSITD causing the tragedy of Duscur and other issues and Claude's Alliance is a mess of infighting to begin with) even if she did feel inclined to tell someone, who would listen AND be in a position to do something about it?

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On 8/18/2019 at 3:45 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Jeralt describes Rhea as "terrifying" and repeatedly tells Byleth to be careful of her.

Love (respect / admiration) and fear are not mutually exclusive. 

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I am interesting if people think Hubert was also involved here too

Right after you kill Miklan in the tower, Hubert confronted Edelgard about talking too much with Byleth, he ended with a remark "You left me no choice but to take this matter into my hand"

 

Obviously he was planning to kill Byleth, yet we never see anything like that in the immediate following chapters

Only explanation I have would be this grand assassination plan with TWISTD we are talking about here...maybe it was Hubert's idea?

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2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

I am interesting if people think Hubert was also involved here too

Right after you kill Miklan in the tower, Hubert confronted Edelgard about talking too much with Byleth, he ended with a remark "You left me no choice but to take this matter into my hand"

 

Obviously he was planning to kill Byleth, yet we never see anything like that in the immediate following chapters

Only explanation I have would be this grand assassination plan with TWISTD we are talking about here...maybe it was Hubert's idea?

I think you're way overestimating Hubert and Edelgard's involvment within TWSITD.

They're the one in the position of power, they're the one in control, not Hubert and Edelgard. You can see it very clearly even in her interactions as Flame Emperor, she's clearly limited by their will, states clearly that wants to eradicate them and yet can't take action.

Kronya is the biggest hint of this, it's quite obvious that she's there to keep an eye (and you can tell by the fact that Hubert wants to keep her away).

Actually I'd say that Hubert hates TWSITD even more than Edelgard, or at least he shows a lot more distaste.

His phrases like all of his threats are more of a character thing really, like Bernadetta screaming at her own shadow.

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2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

I am interesting if people think Hubert was also involved here too

Right after you kill Miklan in the tower, Hubert confronted Edelgard about talking too much with Byleth, he ended with a remark "You left me no choice but to take this matter into my hand" 

  

Obviously he was planning to kill Byleth, yet we never see anything like that in the immediate following chapters

Only explanation I have would be this grand assassination plan with TWISTD we are talking about here...maybe it was Hubert's idea?

Very, very unlikely. Especially since Hubert literally tells you that he didn't like that Monica is so close to Edelgard (most likely because Monica is controlling Edelgard)

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16 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

Love (respect / admiration) and fear are not mutually exclusive. 

I believe the exact quote is something along the lines of "I used to think the world of Rhea. Now she terrifies me." I'm sure there's some respect there still, but love/friendship? Sure doesn't look like it. And again, he tells Byleth on repeated occasions to be careful of Rhea.

 

5 hours ago, timon said:

I think you're way overestimating Hubert and Edelgard's involvment within TWSITD.

They're the one in the position of power, they're the one in control, not Hubert and Edelgard. You can see it very clearly even in her interactions as Flame Emperor, she's clearly limited by their will, states clearly that wants to eradicate them and yet can't take action.

Kronya is the biggest hint of this, it's quite obvious that she's there to keep an eye (and you can tell by the fact that Hubert wants to keep her away).

I pretty much agree with this, although I think it overstates the cult's position of power (I wouldn't say they're "in control" of Edelgard very well). They have more power overall, but they do need Edelgard, which is why she gets away with openly threatening them (in the scene with Tales and Kronya).

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He also tell him he "should have return to monastery much sooner."  and it's pretty obvious he has no problem to return among ranks of her Knights. Yes he is still wsrry of her for obvious reasons, but that's all to it. Quote you used is also twenty years old and Jeralt wasn't at best place at that time. 

I assume you are using English audio, right? You might want reconsider that. 

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Not directly, but since she's pretty much an enabler for TWSITD she's still guilty of being an accomplice at the very least. Heck, even though she despises what happened in Remire, she pretty much gave them a blank cheque to do whatever they wanted as long as they helped her too (and even gave them the Death Knight to use) so she's arguably just as culpable for everything else they did too.

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Jeralt's death wasn't even planned. It seems like something Kronya did out of anger rather than something any of her higher ups wanted her to do. Thales had to come in and bail her out.

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10 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

He also tell him he "should have return to monastery much sooner." 

I think that quote has less to do with trusting Rhea and more to do with Byleth's personal growth.

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2 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

I don't disagree, but it also double as admiting he was too rash when he left imho.

That's definitely up to interpretation. Especially considering he seems troubled when he says "maybe we should have never left," as if he's having some internal conflict. He's not going "yeah, we absolutely shouldn't have left! I'm having a great time here!"

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Nah, not really, since it's entirely up to interpretation whether he likes Rhea or not. He's just saying the monastery itself is possibly a better environment for raising a kid, not that he likes the archbishop herself at all.

 

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Regardless of the argument; the comment was about the Monastery; not Rhea herself; so it's irrelevant if Rhea has something to do with it or not. The monastery would have been a happy place for Byleth.

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Why such black white view in this thread.. Come on I thought serenes forest was a forum with skilled fire emblem players who take a critical view of the story.  edelgard was not involved with jeralts murder. That is completely Kronya and twisted. Why do anti edelgard people completely ignore the disgust disbelief edelgard had and anger against twisted when they were burning remote village. She was not an accessory rather I would call her a captive prisoner forced to toe the line lest she be eliminated. It’s quite common in real life too. In history there are plenty of examples of rulers who because they had no power to fight their captors were forced to go along with there captors plans. Take Nicholas ii or Louis of France both of whom during the revolution phase were captured by the rebels and forced to issue edicts that they did not support or even Napoleon iii after sedan or Francis ii after Pavia. That’s not called being an accessory but a political prisoner. Legally in modern court edelgard would be tried at an intl tribunal and judged a political prisoner so she was not at fault.

she also used a valid cases beli for war/claim so legal post timeskip while the war may not have been the right thing to do legally she is allowed to do it and she also follows the rules during war at least with byleth at side she is not a villain. I mean you would not call the French invasion of Italy over pressing their claim in Naples their king Louis an evil villain/monster. He was a monarch with a claim he decided to press that lead to the Italian wars that devastated Italy but legally he had the casus beli.

 

now was she in the wrong for trying to kill nobles with bandits in beggining yes. But plenty of rulers in history who today are venerated as heroes used similar tactics. Was her stealing of the holy relics wrong of course. However was she responsible for or played role in jeralts murder that is a no. 

 

The way way I view edelgard is that in the pre timeskip half of the story she is a prisoner of twisted and toes their line because she would be eliminated otherwise but at the same time does so in a way that can further her goals.

post timeskip she becomes a villain and a well written one when byleth is not by her side. This is because she becomes a monster who lets the war she started consume her and let the power get to her and the influence of twisted corrupt her. However in her route because byleth is there she is able to more forcefully stand up to twisted and her descent into madness does not take place. In her route at least she follows the rules of war sparing those who surrender are defeated and in the end steps down as empreror, after fulfilling her goal.

it seems fire emblem community has difficulty with nuance not sure if that is a good observation and I don’t blame them it’s tough to deal with a non black and white game when all you know is oh this is good side that is bad etc. blue vs red etc as has been for like so long.

to conclude edelgard is not responsible nor expect jeralts murder or remire village incident and in the first half of the game she is a political prisoner and in the second half depending on whether byleth sides with her or not she becomes a mad empress be on word domination or an antihero/revolutionary.

Edited by Gustav iv

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She and Hubert came to them to offer cooperation. She wasn't forced to do anything, she just did what she though is her mission and she never regreted taking that part.

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6 hours ago, Gustav iv said:

Why such black white view in this thread.. Come on I thought serenes forest was a forum with skilled fire emblem players who take a critical view of the story.  edelgard was not involved with jeralts murder. That is completely Kronya and twisted. Why do anti edelgard people completely ignore the disgust disbelief edelgard had and anger against twisted when they were burning remote village. She was not an accessory rather I would call her a captive prisoner forced to toe the line lest she be eliminated.

That's not how she behaves when you "rescued" Monica,

she told Death Knight he's having too much fun fighting Byleth, and proudly proclaimed she's the flame emperor that will reforge the world.

Doesn't sound a bit like someone forced to participated in an assassination against friends as a captive.

Edited by Timlugia

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I mean you can't really deny she's partly responsible, even if she didn't pull the trigger. She's also the least torn up about his death after at happens and is actually pretty cold about it to Byleth so it's hard for me to feel like she's all that upset that it happened.

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