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What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*


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10 hours ago, IzzyFresh said:

She sanctioned a group of villians in the church and indirectly allows them to experiment on Innocents, Kronya turns innocent students into beasts and Edel has no problem with her, indirectly causes Jeralt to die, lures you into a trap by Solon to kill Byleth right after, she uses innocents and turns them into beasts for her army, and there is a certain cutscene in Blue Lions that really showcases how evil she is. Dimitri's mental state makes perfect sense when you see the shit she did/does to him. Worst part is that these groups she helps and sanctions do evil things, and her defense is "I had nothing to do with that", which Dimitri calls her out on.

This touches on something that no one seems to be really discussing about her. A TON of people are saying, well, she didn't control TWISTD's actions, so she can't be held responsible for what they do.

But here's the thing. When she attacks you in the tomb, she's leading an army consisting entirely of Imperial Soldiers and Demonic Beasts. But those demonic beasts aren't wild ones, they're the ones with stones clearly in their heads, which means they were innocent people turned into monsters.

So, even if you can make the excuse that she didn't order TWISTD to do certain things, she ABSOLUTELY is willing to take innocent people who have been turned into monsters and use them to kill her classmates. I mean, that... that's just really, really messed up.

Because that's not Solon, or anyone else there. That's just her, coldly sacrificing innocent people for basically no reason, other than "they're stronger than normal soldiers". Seriously, you could have just brought more soldiers.

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15 hours ago, dragonlordsd said:

I mean, really, this is what makes her (and characters like her) so compelling. You want them to be reformed, you want them to be good people, but they won't because doing so would go against their character.

Same thing with Walter White, or... I dunno, take your pick. There are a lot of great characters like that.

If she were just a flat out good person, she wouldn't be nearly as interesting. She's not. She's a bit selfish and she's a bit callous, which... really... is true of most people.

100% Agreed.

I'll also say that I personally have a big soft spot for messed up characters like Edelgard that go to the end of the world to accomplish their goals and are also willing to use questionable means to achieve these things. 

14 hours ago, warchiefwilliams said:

I’m on mobile, so I can’t say too much now, but here is a short version of my view on her. Probably will expand on it later.

Edelgard is one of the many well done grey-morality characters for a well done grey-grey morality story. Her back story is compelling, her motivations engaging, and her means-to-the-end as controversial as you would expect. Broadly she is motivated by the following four things:

1. Her hatred for Crests, as the power they represent cost her entire family and who knows how many others.

2. Her hatred for the nobility. Or perhaps more specifically, the power the Crest-bearing nobles  wield over those without; non-crest nobles and commoners alike.

3. Her revanchist desire to restore both Fódlan to Adrestrian rule, and also to undo the restraints imposed on her ability to rule by the nobility of the Empire.

4. Ultimately to destroy that what she sees as the root cause of her Empire’s, her continent’s, and her own personal suffering; the corrupt Church of Serios.

Honestly, she reminds me a lot of many controversial figures from history. Individuals who’s actions brought great progress but also great suffering, and which one is highlighted the most is based on whether the figure won or lost their struggle. 

Overall, I admire her. I feel that she isn’t motivated by some blind list for power, that she has some idea of what her ultimate end goal is going to be. But in the process of trying to realize her dream, she makes plenty of poor or otherwise evil choices. Ranging from the allies she keeps in TWSITD to assassinating potential allies because she views them rivals. And like so many of those historical figures, she can (and will) be consumed by her desires in all but one route. I honestly thought that IS was not capable of writing characters like this any more. I am happy to have been proven wrong.

Fantastic post.

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27 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

So, even if you can make the excuse that she didn't order TWISTD to do certain things, she ABSOLUTELY is willing to take innocent people who have been turned into monsters and use them to kill her classmates. I mean, that... that's just really, really messed up.

 

In addition to that, Professor Hanneman actually suggested they were captives tuned into monsters right after the chapter.

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I'm honestly surprised no one mentioned that her lifespan is shortened due to being forced to wield two crests.

No wonder she's too willing to perform utterly ruthless and even immoral actions, she wants to achieve her goals as fast as possible because she knows she doesn't have enough years left to live. 

Not only she's experienced a horrible childhood in her past, she's denied of a happy future due to said past. No wonder she goes off the deep end in the other routes without Byleth putting her on a leash.

Edited by Spatha
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16 minutes ago, Spatha said:

I'm honestly surprised no one mentioned that her lifespan is shortened due to being forced to wield two crests.

No wonder she's too willing to perform utterly ruthless and even immoral actions, she wants to achieve her goals as fast as possible because she knows she doesn't have enough years left to live. 

Not only she's experienced a horrible childhood in her past, she's denied of a happy future due to said past. No wonder she goes off the deep end in the other routes without Byleth putting her on a leash.

Good point. It does add extra motivation for her, though the game is pretty vague on what "shortened" translates to. I mean, there's a pretty huge difference between "I'll die at 40" and "I'll die next year."

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7 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

That's like one more reason to not fighting wars and instead do something productive about corrupted empire and educating future successor 

If Lysithea's situation applies to her. She might not even have enough time to even sire an heir.

Not to mention that she believes that she must change the corrupt status quo now or there will be more people who will experience what she had endured. 

It's no wonder she desires death in the other routes, her plans have failed and she's wasted what limited life she has.

 

Edited by Spatha
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Yes that's why I am saying she should start on own turf where is her influence strongest. 

If you don't have enough time don't waste it on war with people who are not even your enemies. 

Edited by Tenzen12
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16 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Yes that's why I am saying she should start on own turf where is her influence strongest. 

If you don't have enough time don't waste it on war with people who are not even your enemies. 

Someone made a good analogy that describes her methods in a nutshell.

"she brings down the hammer where a scalpel might be better"

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As a Blue Lions Player, obviously I dislike her greatly. I don't agree with what she did or her methods of going about it. I consider her to be evil and blindsided by her ideals. She was basically fine with killing whoever she wanted because she felt that she was right and her way was right and she wasn't open to considering any other way. Even after Dimitri calms down from his murderous rampage and tries to reason with her, she still makes no efforts to understand where anyone else is coming from.

That said, it's unquestionable that she is a well written character and I'm sure I'll find something positive about her when I play the Black Eagle House (I'm planning to save both of her routes for last). Being the main villain and one of the main Lords makes her stand out and she's not written in a cliche way, but I still don't like how hypocritical she is in her actions. Killing her entire family (Dimitri's family), allowing the deaths of several of her classmates with what seems like little remorse, and her lack of sympathy or even so much as an apology towards anyone makes me find it hard to find her sympathetic or even consider her stance because she just comes across as nothing more than a dictator.

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1 hour ago, Landmaster said:

Killing her entire family (Dimitri's family)

Spoiler

I haven't played BL yet so I don't have Dimitri's perspective, but in the Crimson Flower route it's revealed that neither of those things are true. Edelgard and her siblings were forced to go through crest experimentation, which only she lived through, and the Tragedy of Duscur was caused by her Uncle. She had nothing to do with it and in facts, resents her Uncle for causing it.

 

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20 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Actually, if we don't talk about high politics or modern morality from the hindsight, there is almost no reason for Byleth to join Edelgard at Holy Tomb.

From Byleth's perspective at Holy Tomb:

 

- Rhea saved Jeralt

- Edelgard and her associates killed Jeralt (even in her route her defense was very weak)

- She never explained to you her plan pre skip.

- Her associates almost killed you with some evil magics just recently, resulting Sothis sacrificing herself.

- She just insulted Sothis being an evil false god despite you know it's not true

- She just ordered to kill you and your friends for resisting taken over.

- She again threatening to kill you if you don't join her

 

Why would anyone, from Byleth's perspective to join her, unless they are very deeply in love with her, even more so than to Jeralt?

Here's my thought train during that moment:

Okay, Edelgard just betrayed me big time. So many emotions, none good. Then she reveals she's the main antagonist up to that point... livid.

Win the battle and Rhea DEMANDS I kill her. My initial reaction is to off her... but then, wait. Why is Rhea so aggressive about this? Didn't I just learn the lesson in Caspar's support about jumping the gun rather than waiting and getting more information? No, if anything we should throw her in a jail cell and get names/schemes from her so we can stop all she is up to so I chose to spare Edelgard.

Then Rhea goes nuts, gives me the if you aren't with me your against me speech and reveals her true form... like, what? I just didn't want to kill the traitor before interrogation and you're going to flip out on me without asking for my why? Yikes, I am glad I chose to spare her now cause that is not how I operate (do what I say when I say it type leadership has never worked for me).

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Hunter Nightblood said:
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I haven't played BL yet so I don't have Dimitri's perspective, but in the Crimson Flower route it's revealed that neither of those things are true. Edelgard and her siblings were forced to go through crest experimentation, which only she lived through, and the Tragedy of Duscur was caused by her Uncle. She had nothing to do with it and in facts, resents her Uncle for causing it.

 

Spoiler

Blue Lions lead to the same conclusions as BE. Both Edelgard and Dimitri are victims of Arundel. Blaming Edelgard is one of Dimitri's delusions in BL, just like it is in BE route. I can only assume someone who thinks Edelgard is behind Duscur didn't pay attention, no matter what route they played.

 

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1 hour ago, sfgiantsfanmike said:

Then Rhea goes nuts, gives me the if you aren't with me your against me speech and reveals her true form... like, what? I just didn't want to kill the traitor before interrogation and you're going to flip out on me without asking for my why? Yikes, I am glad I chose to spare her now cause that is not how I operate (do what I say when I say it type leadership has never worked for me).

Thing is, Edelgard just gave the same order right before. "If you resist, you forfeit your life"

Having Rhea reacting with same order doesn't seem that much different.

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4 hours ago, Spatha said:

I'm honestly surprised no one mentioned that her lifespan is shortened due to being forced to wield two crests.

No wonder she's too willing to perform utterly ruthless and even immoral actions, she wants to achieve her goals as fast as possible because she knows she doesn't have enough years left to live. 

Not only she's experienced a horrible childhood in her past, she's denied of a happy future due to said past. No wonder she goes off the deep end in the other routes without Byleth putting her on a leash.

I actually don't get the logic here.

Both Edelgard and Thales said the plan was to create the "perfect emperor"

 

What's the point creating a perfect emperor that only lives 5 years or less?

Edited by Timlugia
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54 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Thing is, Edelgard just gave the same order right before. "If you resist, you forfeit your life"

Having Rhea reacting with same order doesn't seem that much different.

Except we have Edelgard captured. She has information we need to take down her schemes. Randomly killing a prisoner is of no use to us. We needed to put aside the thirst for vengeance long enough to interrogate Edelgard. The fact that she had to have vengeance right that second is a huge turn off for me. Should have been a third option where we suggest interrogation but Hubert 'ports in and helps Edelgard escape.    

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One thing that is pretty cool about Edelgard, is that no matter how you look at it, what she did ultimately caused the continent to become better, not matter what side you take. And also thankfully because you're here to say 'Nope'. It's pretty fascinating.

Because you are not going really far if you are trying to tell me that trying to work pacifically 'with the system' would have done much good, because you know, Reah the yandere pope, who is actually the jesus of her religion who pretty much don't care about anything if it's not about her mom.
And as much of a meme this is, crests are indeed a big problem.

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31 minutes ago, sfgiantsfanmike said:

Except we have Edelgard captured.

Did we really? The war should end right there then 😉

And in all anti Edelgard path, she told you only way to end the war is to kill her since she will not be swayed.

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Having a sad backstory and a sympathetic motivation is JRPG villains 101. I really don't see how having those can make anyone not a villain. I want to first play the route before judging how she fare compared to the many JRPG villains whit those traits.

But seriously the average JRPG bad guy is definitely closer to Edalgard than to Gharnef or Garon.

Edited by Flere210
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2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Having a sad backstory and a sympathetic motivation is JRPG villains 101. I really don't see how having those can make anyone not a villain. I want to first play the route before judging how she fare compared to the many JRPG villains whit those traits.

But seriously the average JRPG bad guy is definitely closer to Edalgard than to Gharnef or Garon.

I'd say definitely play the route first, because with her it's less about the backstory and motives and more about... how she deals with it? It's hard to explain. But like a lot of people have said, she's not like a standard JRPG villain, she's much more of a tragic figure.

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15 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

I'd say definitely play the route first, because with her it's less about the backstory and motives and more about... how she deals with it? It's hard to explain. But like a lot of people have said, she's not like a standard JRPG villain, she's much more of a tragic figure.

But most RPG villains are intended to be tragic figures  it's just that the writers screw up more often than not lol.

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1 hour ago, B.Leu said:

One thing that is pretty cool about Edelgard, is that no matter how you look at it, what she did ultimately caused the continent to become better, not matter what side you take. And also thankfully because you're here to say 'Nope'. It's pretty fascinating.

Because you are not going really far if you are trying to tell me that trying to work pacifically 'with the system' would have done much good, because you know, Reah the yandere pope, who is actually the jesus of her religion who pretty much don't care about anything if it's not about her mom.
And as much of a meme this is, crests are indeed a big problem.

Crests are not problem though. In same way as money or talent. You don't solve discrimination by removing what make peope different. Hanneman actuall solved this problem by making more crests. If you get Sylvain and Ingrid together they actually solve it simply by being lovey dovey, which I personally think is both slightly better way then plunging continent into war. Mind you Those who dubstep are pretty much behind everything Edie blame crests for in first place. 

As for Rhea as long as Byleth fused with Sothis, he would take over Rhea duties as Arcibishop as she knows she is loosing sanity due Seiros influence. Or maybe she might do so even without it. It's also untrue she doesn't care about anything but Sothis. In Church route and I believe in some other too she actually give own life in stake to protect students in monastery and church did it's duties as peacekeeper, even if you can complain it could be done better.

 

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1 hour ago, Timlugia said:

Did we really? The war should end right there then 😉

And in all anti Edelgard path, she told you only way to end the war is to kill her since she will not be swayed.

Question: What tactical advantage does killing Edelgard provide? What harm is there in interrogating her for information?

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29 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Crests are not problem though. In same way as money or talent. You don't solve discrimination by removing what make peope different. Hanneman actuall solved this problem by making more crests. If you get Sylvain and Ingrid together they actually solve it simply by being lovey dovey, which I personally think is both slightly better way then plunging continent into war. Mind you Those who dubstep are pretty much behind everything Edie blame crests for in first place. 

As for Rhea as long as Byleth fused with Sothis, he would take over Rhea duties as Arcibishop as she knows she is loosing sanity due Seiros influence. Or maybe she might do so even without it. It's also untrue she doesn't care about anything but Sothis. In Church route and I believe in some other too she actually give own life in stake to protect students in monastery and church did it's duties as peacekeeper, even if you can complain it could be done better.

 

...LGBT and SJW would have a field day with this post. 😛
Jokes aside, How are they not a problem ? People are constantly screwed over by this, no matter how I look at it, people will continue to get screwed over, either by the crest quality, or the fact that everyone can have a crest.  Or, you could say that it's rather a problem with society. Hence my point of 'Eldelgard kickstarted a change that will become positive depending of who you joined'.

You say that you don't solve discrimination by removing what make people different, and well I agree to an extent (we don't have a thing called holy blood or crests in our society)... but the game kind of disagree with it, since it works both way. So it seems that actually both solutions are possible.

But Rhea, fully Seiros or not Seiros-ed is coo-coo in the first place no matter how you look at it.
... Mind you, I have some problems with the church route, it's super weird, they try to portray, or rather say that Rhea is Sothis before her mother died as if she was super nice, while forgetting that she was visibly no mercy who killed everyone that did something against the church and their words. Or looked at it funny. Or even question it.

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The whole crest thing is pure Luddism. Just because they were not used well in the past does not mean that they can't be used well in the future.

The crest have power, power that can be used to heal and protect the people instead of opressing them. The church, the nobles and the slytherines were the problem, not the tool they used. The crests are neutral and by destroing them she is removing a tool that can be used to do great things. I definitelt don't see how a crestless, weakened by 5 year of war empire can stand up to the nation that surrond fodlan and already invaded it several times.

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