What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*

[Landmaster]

I have now finished my Golden Deer run and...I have to say, I don't feel any less of my hatred towards Edelgard. Yes, she seems less evil than she did in Blue Lions but she's still doing the exact same thing, still has no remorse for any of the people who have died, and has no desire to come to any sort of understanding with anyone. She is still too hypocritical in her actions, it's her way or the highway, which makes her no better than whatever she dislikes about the church or Crests or what not.

Really gonna need Black Eagles to do something to sell me on her ideals because I just can't see anything redeeming about her yet.

[virtu333]

2 hours ago, Landmaster said:

I have now finished my Golden Deer run and...I have to say, I don't feel any less of my hatred towards Edelgard. Yes, she seems less evil than she did in Blue Lions but she's still doing the exact same thing, still has no remorse for any of the people who have died, and has no desire to come to any sort of understanding with anyone. She is still too hypocritical in her actions, it's her way or the highway, which makes her no better than whatever she dislikes about the church or Crests or what not.

Really gonna need Black Eagles to do something to sell me on her ideals because I just can't see anything redeeming about her yet.

I do think she truly does want a better world - it's just she is damaged and wrong about the way she goes about creating that improved world. 

[tkmtso]

21 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

 

Well, to be fair these points do have a basis. Not to the absolute extend presented here, but still:

 

1) Sure it is true on an individual level, but as a system, well GD does point out that enforced statsis, the stroy rewriting... All of that involves purging dissenting elements as entities. And her actions in-game shows that Rhea don't really hesitate to bring down the axe when she thinks it is necessary. Never near the extent some says, but well, you don't rule a faith for a thousand years without breaking things standing in the way.

 

2) Rhea rewrote story to have the dang thins placed as 'Goddess' Gifts', complete with Saints and the likes, probably more to honor and keep what's left alive of the other Children of the Goddess (see Marianne for what happens without that), but the result is still there. With a rhethoric base like that, there is all the elements to lead to sacralization of the dang things... And the elements to lead to abuse to keep them going at all costs. And she didn't exactly seem that eager to correct that interpretation (she is the archbishop and ultimate moral authority of the continent, and control the monastery where the continent's nobility and promising youth trains. With influence like that, curbing the Crest System's abuses should have been child's play).

 

3) 'Divide and Conquer', no, but 'Position yourself for big influence', more yes. Faerghus is called the 'Holy' Kingdom, titles like that are rife with intense rapports with the Church, even hostile ones, and always omen a big deal of influence (Canossa, Frederic II, for the Holy Roman Empire...). And the Empire has this 'tradition' of the archbishop as a temoin for each new crowning of an emperor, aka 'the Archbishop needs to like next emperor too' (Edelgard crowning without a Rhea is so much of a big deal probably in part because of that). And again, Garreg March, aka control of the nobility's next generation education (and potential for preening off indesirable ones if one is ruthless enough, and well, ruthlessness is one thing Edelgard and Rhea share). And when you have your own big army, you can also excerts a certain amount of power.

 

I do not want to try to excuse Edelgard's more ruthless tactics in the slightest. But bottom fact is, she wanted to change a system she felt personally as corrupted (and well, from what I saw from the Supports and missions, something is rotten in the Crest Nobility system), a system that is in many with the Church as its center (moral and temporal influence), leading her, in a very cold and Spock way, to decide that that upheaval couldn't happen with a Church which would certainly not favor changing a system placing it at the center of the game. From there, war... Is hard to avoid to say the least.

This is the reason I am pissed off. You said it have a basis and most of what your said while did proved something but nearly nothing about what I against. 

 

1. I think there is no doubt the church do dirty things, but what I said is there is no evidence that the church or Rhea kill people that is just because they are non-believer (just because they are heathen or heretic while not doing anything against the church, I don't remember I saw any). proving someone a murderer does not prove someone a rapist. What we see is the church have merciless nature to those oppose the church authority. And what we can see It is not just individual level but the attitude of the church toward nonbelievers, you won't see the catholic church will allow a Muslim to be member of the swiss guard (a Muslim holding scimitar can walk around the pope/vatican freely? I don't think it ever happened), but you did see this in the seiros church. Again I am talking about killing non-believer because they are non-believer (inquisition/crusade), story rewriting, or Rhea is tyrant are not any prove or basis that the church ever do something like inquisition/crusade, censorship/dictatorship/or even brainwashing are different things.

 

2. The only word about crest in the "bible" of the seiros church is like this , "the crest was a gift by goddess." and the next paragraph "people started pursue bloodline(crest) power wealth fame and cause great suffer and chaos" and the 5 commandments say nothing about crest.

Maybe it is because my own experience, I can only see condemnation of pursue crest bloodline(and power and other things) but no advocation. when I saw this, I immediately think of a missionary I met many years ago (and actually I think the Catholic-owned secondary and high school I attended promoted similar idea) "JWH give human free will and intelligence to seek knowledge, as human stared sekk knowledge like science, they stared become arrogance, confidene of their own strength and forgot the God's guidance, eventually it lead to creation of something like atomic bomb." What I interpreted is he want condemn the humanity just pursue these knowledge but not the wisdom of god/bible like the ten commandments.

 

And for the latter one, again, it can only use to prove that the church sit idle when people misinterpreted the dogma. It is like to blame the Islam advocates terrorism when the jihadist misinterpreted Jihad, and islamic leaders not doing much except maybe teach the real meaning of jihad only in their owned community. Of course the church are more central organized, but I don't see a church that cannot even control its branch are able to do much more, while the staff in the church-owned academy never teach the student to emphasize on crest, some even tell student not for care about the crest like seteth. But the church academy is not the only academy and seems there is a royal academy mentioned is not control by the church. (It doesn't seems them have any local church/chapel in town/city but just the three churches?)

 

3. Once again it is nothing to prove that it is the church initial the rebellion against the empire, of course, the church said they intervened and therefore kingdom is established . I think its undoubtedly for any decent leader of any organization will try to seek benefit from these events and of course the church want to be the supreme religious authority over any secular authority and that's might why they name the kingdom "holy" just to make sure the kingdom are more connect to the church, but to say it was initial by them is totally different things. Especially when emperor cannot even be crowned without the presence of church, they really don't have much reason to divided it for few more countries that might risk the chance that they will out of control by the church, like the alliance seems not so closed to the church like the kingdom. And afterr all, it is all speculation, but from what I see, some people said the church fractures the empire is the history is concrete, claiming it is only because the church, otherwise Empire will ruled a unified Fodlan for thousands years and no war will be need. Maybe I am oversensitive about this, but this pissed me most out of all 3 (if you look my location, and know there is ongoing anti-government protest, what those pro-government and government said is "no normal people will protest against government it must be CIA behind them")

 

 

Forgot to say, when I called myself extremist, I think being radical is kind of extremism, and think something can be solved only by violence (not by any other possible peaceful way) is trait of extremist, and for me I don't believe in peaceful protest or something like velvet revolution.

Edited August 17, 2019 by tkmtso

[Warhydra]

16 hours ago, Landmaster said:

I have now finished my Golden Deer run and...I have to say, I don't feel any less of my hatred towards Edelgard. Yes, she seems less evil than she did in Blue Lions but she's still doing the exact same thing, still has no remorse for any of the people who have died, and has no desire to come to any sort of understanding with anyone. She is still too hypocritical in her actions, it's her way or the highway, which makes her no better than whatever she dislikes about the church or Crests or what not.

Really gonna need Black Eagles to do something to sell me on her ideals because I just can't see anything redeeming about her yet.

Just a matter of point of view really, if you have only played BE and GD, you probably think much less of DImitri. 

[Hardric62]

1 hour ago, tkmtso said:

22 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

 

This is the reason I am pissed off. You said it have a basis and most of what your said while did proved something but nearly nothing about what I against. 

 

I guess the problem here is a difference of interpretation:

 

1) For me, censorship, brainwashing and dictatorship mixed together are all essential elements of an inquisition, because these things will be used to purge dissenting elements as entities able to influence the way of thought, only thing left to add is the name 'inquisition'. When I see how merciless they are against people defying their authority, and that they have the willingness to rewrite things in their favor, and a standing army... The addition of these factors does not paint a nice picture.

 

2) My own perspective says that people have an unfortunate tendance of interpreting texts like that in a real bad way, and having things like 'Saints', '10 Elites'... Nemesis could be a counter example, but the 'heroes' keep being people with Crests. It will influence the interpretation. And fact is, when a Church isn't addressing the issues with its creed, things have a tendancy to spiral ot of control (the Reform mainly stems from the fact the Catholic Church only bothered to address some fine points of abuse after the Protestants' progression showed that there was sometinhg rotten in the Church). And when it is the one same near-immortal leader for a millenium who resorts to other identities to keep its control, I see someone pretty determined to micro-manage that whole edifice. And calls them out when don't do jack duck to address these issues when they are shown as willing and able to address points of similar importance. And while Garreg March isn't the only school, it also seems quite clear it is the school, with considerable potential for influence.

Personal experience with medieval history regarding the Church influence is also speaking here, where popes could get emperors and kings excommunicated when they acted against their will, or force abdication... And they didn't have an army like the Church of Seiros. Armed forces able to launch intervention everywhere on a continent denotes a serious amount of power and influence.

 

3) Okay, I never said 'Unified Empire will always be better', and frankly I am skeptical with continental political entities because that often means that there will be aplenty different cultrues within that territory, and odds of them being reasonably balanced are... small to say the least, and issues leading to the fracturing of the Empire will happen, like it happened to many empires in Real Life when they fell short on that front.

I also never said the Church sparked the whole thing. But the way I read the situation makes me think they sure profited from that situation to entrench themmselves as the supreme morale authority, and from a very cynical viewpoint, the creation of the 'Holy Kingdom' also creates a counterpart you can play against the Empire in case of political struggle, even if you nominally supports the two, because there is no telling when one of these powers decide they are done with the Church for a reason or another and an 'ally' might be needed.

[Nihilem]

30 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

1) For me, censorship, brainwashing and dictatorship mixed together are all essential elements of an inquisition, because these things will be used to purge dissenting elements as entities able to influence the way of thought, only thing left to add is the name 'inquisition'. When I see how merciless they are against people defying their authority, and that they have the willingness to rewrite things in their favor, and a standing army... The addition of these factors does not paint a nice picture.

How would act when someone tries to kill you? Keep in mind that we dont know to much of the court systems in Fodlan. It could well be that direct execution is the appropiate answer to someone killing a political leader. We know that the guy killing the king of faerghus (or was it his brother?) - anyway I mean lonatos son - was executed, with no court holding mentioned. So death sentence doesnt seem to unknown.

And the western church defied the authority of Rhea for years without anything happening. Just when they become millitant the church of the middle acted.

 

 

 

[Landmaster]

6 hours ago, Warhydra said:

Just a matter of point of view really, if you have only played BE and GD, you probably think much less of DImitri. 

Yes, that's obviously the intent. Though, I don't really see how GD players can think anything of Dimitri seeing as

Spoiler

he's completely irrelevant to the plot and only appears in one scene before immediately dying off camera.

 

[ZeManaphy]

On 8/16/2019 at 10:16 AM, Landmaster said:

I have now finished my Golden Deer run and...I have to say, I don't feel any less of my hatred towards Edelgard. Yes, she seems less evil than she did in Blue Lions but she's still doing the exact same thing, still has no remorse for any of the people who have died, and has no desire to come to any sort of understanding with anyone. She is still too hypocritical in her actions, it's her way or the highway, which makes her no better than whatever she dislikes about the church or Crests or what not.

Really gonna need Black Eagles to do something to sell me on her ideals because I just can't see anything redeeming about her yet.

I just finished Golden Deer too, and the way TWSID explain themselves makes Edelgard look really naive and selfish, since she was a puppet used by TWSID to create war with the church for them.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Based on Black Eagles and Blue Lions routes only:

I think Edelgard is absolutely fascinating, and easily on the short list of the very best characters Fire Emblem has ever created.

She's very morally grey, of course. She has things she wants to do, and is willing to do frightening things to accomplish them. The twist that she is the Flame Emperor is great, and on her own route it's neat to watch the hints of her plotting and her reactions to the Church come to a head.

I think she makes a great main antagonist because she has her reasons which you can sympathise with if not agree with, and a great personal connection with Dimitri on the Blue Lions route. I loved the scene where they meet prior to the Battle of Enbarr and even her death scene puts a great exclamation point on the character.

At the same time, she also makes a very fun and different protagonist; her actions are still questionable but it's compelling to watch her accomplish them, whether it's using her charisma to unite her friends and the rest of the Empire or facing down her enemies both directly (Rhea) and indirectly (Arundel).

(I also really like Dimitri! I think the tribalism that some have adopted about the characters is a bit unfortunate but on the other hand it kinda shows that the point-of-view writing is good enough to make players feel this way, on both "sides".)

[XeKr]

I like Edelgard because I’m cynical enough to think that sometimes it is necessary to do monstrous things for the greater good. Even if most modern media, especially entertainment, is pretty overwhelming in denoting that as evil (unless the character shows remorse, then it can usually be all forgiven).

I think sometimes, as with Edelgard, this does take you down a terrible road and many mistakes are made. Knowing other possibilities and outcomes from a meta-perspective, her path does not seem like the best one. But it’s incredibly hard for humans, while taking action, to pre-judge the results and impossible to change past actions in hindsight. (divine pulse certainly seems like it can’t be used in that way also). 

I’m actually not sure the game really engaged this theme very deeply and well overall, and it’s been done better in many other stories, but it was enough to make me feel some real sympathy for Edelgard. Not because her background is sad (which it is, to be fair) or her intentions are good (which ultimately means little), but because consequentialism is really hard and one of the most human things is struggling with it (and that’s enough sometimes). 

Edited August 17, 2019 by XeKr

[wissenschaft]

Edelgard reminds me of my favorite comic book villain, Magneto. Magneto lived through the holocaust and comes to take on the cause of protecting a new race hes apart of, mutants. Said mutants are faced with their own potential future genocide and Magneto resolves to stop it by any means necessary. His goals are just, you can easily sympathize with him, and he is very charismatic. However, hes also an authoritarian with a savior complex and fully believes the ends justify the means. He also has a lot a pain and anger hidden bellow the surface of his charismatic persona.

Doesn't this remind you of a certain Empress we know? Edelgard at her worse (blue lions route) is a tyrant whom in desperation to win a losing war causes more and more extreme acts. At her best, she an anti-villain who works with a team of heroes to do whats right.

[SHEmperor]

On 8/9/2019 at 4:48 PM, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Well of course that's all the more why Gilbert mentions how he and Byleth have to help Dimitri be brought back on the right path again as him being alone did him no favors. Also you need to keep in mind in the BE path when Edelgard is about to kill Dimitri she says he would have made a good ruler in a time of peace which would have been the case had she not declare war. 

I think this is referring less to the war happening atm and more so the Duscur Massacre.

[HarryPotter]

I think she's extremely stupid.

*SPOILER ALERT*

She's an extremist simpleton with no redeeming qualities beyond her looks. I finished BL and GD route, and am currently on BE route (mid-timeskip) and based on the other two routes, she's just an end-justifies-the-mean extremist who is hypocritical to a caricaturistic degree. In BL/GD she has a messiah complex claiming to cleanse this world for the better while doing none of that and basically just tries to conquer all territories and kills civilians on all sides with no actual gains. She's basically Ganondorf. 

In Black Eagle route, we learn that she was experimented on by her empire to gain the major Crest of Flame and so wants to destroy the world that puts Crests above humanity and destroy the Church for making it as such. However, my biggest qualm about her ideology is that she doesn't know anything. She knows that humans are in fact the creators of the relics and that Seiros killed Nemesis and took back the relics, changed history and basically controlled the world through the Church. Her "knowledge" is based on the history told through Adrestian Emperors. However, she doesn't know that Nemesis was corrupted by TWSITD, created the Sword of the Creator with the bones and heart of Sothis, killed all the children of Sothis (Serios's siblings) and created relics and crests via their bones, heart and blood. After killing Nemesis, Seiros changed history, making the ten nobles basically become crest maniac monsters as a F you to the world. Edelgard understands that the world and people are gray in that no-one's all good or bad but a mixture, yet she is unwilling to even try to understand the reasoning behind the Church and simply paints them as the ultimate bad WHILE teaming up with TWSITD who are in fact the ultimate bad because again, she's stupid and doesn't know anything.

[Troykv]

11 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

I think she's extremely stupid.

*SPOILER ALERT*

She's an extremist simpleton with no redeeming qualities beyond her looks. I finished BL and GD route, and am currently on BE route (mid-timeskip) and based on the other two routes, she's just an end-justifies-the-mean extremist who is hypocritical to a caricaturistic degree. In BL/GD she has a messiah complex claiming to cleanse this world for the better while doing none of that and basically just tries to conquer all territories and kills civilians on all sides with no actual gains. She's basically Ganondorf. 

In Black Eagle route, we learn that she was experimented on by her empire to gain the major Crest of Flame and so wants to destroy the world that puts Crests above humanity and destroy the Church for making it as such. However, my biggest qualm about her ideology is that she doesn't know anything. She knows that humans are in fact the creators of the relics and that Seiros killed Nemesis and took back the relics, changed history and basically controlled the world through the Church. Her "knowledge" is based on the history told through Adrestian Emperors. However, she doesn't know that Nemesis was corrupted by TWSITD, created the Sword of the Creator with the bones and heart of Sothis, killed all the children of Sothis (Serios's siblings) and created relics and crests via their bones, heart and blood. After killing Nemesis, Seiros changed history, making the ten nobles basically become crest maniac monsters as a F you to the world. Edelgard understands that the world and people are gray in that no-one's all good or bad but a mixture, yet she is unwilling to even try to understand the reasoning behind the Church and simply paints them as the ultimate bad WHILE teaming up with TWSITD who are in fact the ultimate bad because again, she's stupid and doesn't know anything.

Edelgard definitely has a biased version of the story; but to be fair; other that try to have war with the Church (and eventually the TWSITD), her only other real choice was to run away and betray every thing her life was about.

Her lack of trust brings the worst of her in her first years... It's probably she believes if she tried to do something about it, she would either be considered a heretic and be executed, or be killed by the Slithers.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Troykv

[Strullemia]

1 hour ago, HarryPotter said:

I think she's extremely stupid.

*SPOILER ALERT*

She's an extremist simpleton with no redeeming qualities beyond her looks. I finished BL and GD route, and am currently on BE route (mid-timeskip) and based on the other two routes, she's just an end-justifies-the-mean extremist who is hypocritical to a caricaturistic degree. In BL/GD she has a messiah complex claiming to cleanse this world for the better while doing none of that and basically just tries to conquer all territories and kills civilians on all sides with no actual gains. She's basically Ganondorf. 

In Black Eagle route, we learn that she was experimented on by her empire to gain the major Crest of Flame and so wants to destroy the world that puts Crests above humanity and destroy the Church for making it as such. However, my biggest qualm about her ideology is that she doesn't know anything. She knows that humans are in fact the creators of the relics and that Seiros killed Nemesis and took back the relics, changed history and basically controlled the world through the Church. Her "knowledge" is based on the history told through Adrestian Emperors. However, she doesn't know that Nemesis was corrupted by TWSITD, created the Sword of the Creator with the bones and heart of Sothis, killed all the children of Sothis (Serios's siblings) and created relics and crests via their bones, heart and blood. After killing Nemesis, Seiros changed history, making the ten nobles basically become crest maniac monsters as a F you to the world. Edelgard understands that the world and people are gray in that no-one's all good or bad but a mixture, yet she is unwilling to even try to understand the reasoning behind the Church and simply paints them as the ultimate bad WHILE teaming up with TWSITD who are in fact the ultimate bad because again, she's stupid and doesn't know anything.

She’s right that the church changed history though. Had they not done that then things would have turned out differently. 

[wissenschaft]

3 hours ago, HarryPotter said:

I think she's extremely stupid.

*SPOILER ALERT*

She's an extremist simpleton with no redeeming qualities beyond her looks. I finished BL and GD route, and am currently on BE route (mid-timeskip) and based on the other two routes, she's just an end-justifies-the-mean extremist who is hypocritical to a caricaturistic degree. In BL/GD she has a messiah complex claiming to cleanse this world for the better while doing none of that and basically just tries to conquer all territories and kills civilians on all sides with no actual gains. She's basically Ganondorf. 

In Black Eagle route, we learn that she was experimented on by her empire to gain the major Crest of Flame and so wants to destroy the world that puts Crests above humanity and destroy the Church for making it as such. However, my biggest qualm about her ideology is that she doesn't know anything. She knows that humans are in fact the creators of the relics and that Seiros killed Nemesis and took back the relics, changed history and basically controlled the world through the Church. Her "knowledge" is based on the history told through Adrestian Emperors. However, she doesn't know that Nemesis was corrupted by TWSITD, created the Sword of the Creator with the bones and heart of Sothis, killed all the children of Sothis (Serios's siblings) and created relics and crests via their bones, heart and blood. After killing Nemesis, Seiros changed history, making the ten nobles basically become crest maniac monsters as a F you to the world. Edelgard understands that the world and people are gray in that no-one's all good or bad but a mixture, yet she is unwilling to even try to understand the reasoning behind the Church and simply paints them as the ultimate bad WHILE teaming up with TWSITD who are in fact the ultimate bad because again, she's stupid and doesn't know anything.

Is that really fair? If you were in Edelgard shoes, with the information she has, would you do any better?

[CyberNinja]

On 8/16/2019 at 1:16 PM, Landmaster said:

still has no remorse for any of the people who have died,

You know, except all the movie cutscenes showing the contrary I have at my fingertips in the extras, have you considered that its poor form to be openly dishonest when we have every unlocked conversation and cutscene on tap in our switches? She literally begs the protag to execute her so that no one will have a banner to fight under so that everyone will stop killing each other. She absolutely hates the slaughter but is willing to take this path regardless, compared to Dimitry who won't deny enjoying starting a massacre in Felix's C support. I'll finish my BL route before reaching judgement, but Edelgard haters seem like dishonest Hypocrites to say the least.

14 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Is that really fair? If you were in Edelgard shoes, with the information she has, would you do any better?

I can say I wouldn't, since when I only had as much information as Edelgard I found her position quite justified, its only post GD that I've come to see that while justified, she is incorrect in her response.

Edited August 19, 2019 by CyberNinja

[wissenschaft]

27 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

You know, except all the movie cutscenes showing the contrary I have at my fingertips in the extras, have you considered that its poor form to be openly dishonest when we have every unlocked conversation and cutscene on tap in our switches? She literally begs the protag to execute her so that no one will have a banner to fight under so that everyone will stop killing each other. She absolutely hates the slaughter but is willing to take this path regardless, compared to Dimitry who won't deny enjoying starting a massacre in Felix's C support. I'll finish my BL route before reaching judgement, but Edelgard supporters seem like dishonest Hypocrites to say the least.

I can say I wouldn't, since when I only had as much information as Edelgard I found her position quite justified, its only post GD that I've come to see that while justified, she is incorrect in her response.

I think you mean Edelgard detractors.

 

[CyberNinja]

40 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

I think you mean Edelgard detractors.

 

Yes, phoneposting is hard.

[MessengerIris]

 

2 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

You know, except all the movie cutscenes showing the contrary I have at my fingertips in the extras, have you considered that its poor form to be openly dishonest when we have every unlocked conversation and cutscene on tap in our switches? She literally begs the protag to execute her so that no one will have a banner to fight under so that everyone will stop killing each other. She absolutely hates the slaughter but is willing to take this path regardless, compared to Dimitry who won't deny enjoying starting a massacre in Felix's C support. I'll finish my BL route before reaching judgement, but Edelgard haters seem like dishonest Hypocrites to say the least.

I can say I wouldn't, since when I only had as much information as Edelgard I found her position quite justified, its only post GD that I've come to see that while justified, she is incorrect in her response.

This is why I hate discussing about characters in this game.  All of them are pretty morally gray. Just because Dimitri is in the wrong, doesn't make Edelgard right. I haven't seen many people defend or try to justify his action. Both of them had pretty tragic pasts but morally, sympathetic pasts does not justify morally questionable actions, even ones with good intent. 

I think the main difference in opinions is how the story writes them. Dimitri's route make him look misguided by exposing the real preparator. He doesn't even try to justify his temporary madness or his actions at any point in the game. He just accepts that he is a monster and embraces that. The story constantly reinforces that he is wrong, even when crazy. 

Compared that to Edelgard, who justifies her actions as a necessary evil. She hates it, but continues to do it anyways. Her fans defend to that it was "necessary" but that in itself is a controversial position because the other routes show Edelgard to be misguided too. Yet, that aspect is not explored in Edelgard's route. She is firmly deadset that she is doing right, and you are just here along for the ride. Then people argue that she "tried to find alternatives" but there is little shown in the narrative (the contents of the manifestos are never shown, just because an attempt was made doesn't make it a GOOD attempt at diplomacy). 

I don't even hate Edelgard. I think she is a good morally gray character. It's just super annoying when people feel the need to throw someone else under the bus to make Edelgard seem morally better and then call their fans hypocrites... 

Edited August 19, 2019 by MessengerIris

[CyberNinja]

25 minutes ago, MessengerIris said:

 

This is why I hate discussing about characters in this game.  All of them are pretty morally gray. Just because Dimitri is in the wrong, doesn't make Edelgard right. I haven't seen many people defend or try to justify his action. Both of them had pretty tragic pasts but morally, sympathetic pasts does not justify morally questionable actions, even ones with good intent. 

I think the main difference in opinions is how the story writes them. Dimitri's route make him look misguided by exposing the real preparator. He doesn't even try to justify his temporary madness or his actions at any point in the game. He just accepts that he is a monster and embraces that. The story constantly reinforces that he is wrong, even when crazy. 

Compared that to Edelgard, who justifies her actions as a necessary evil. She hates it, but continues to do it anyways. Her fans defend to that it was "necessary" but that in itself is a controversial position because the other routes show Edelgard to be misguided too. Yet, that aspect is not explored in Edelgard's route. She is firmly deadset that she is doing right, and you are just here along for the ride. Then people argue that she "tried to find alternatives" but there is little shown in the narrative (the contents of the manifestos are never shown, just because an attempt was made doesn't make it a GOOD attempt at diplomacy). 

I don't even hate Edelgard. I think she is a good morally gray character. It's just super annoying when people feel the need to throw someone else under the bus to make Edelgard seem morally better and then call their fans hypocrites... 

The way Edelgard's rout is handled is either you agree with her and join or see her as misguided and ultimately will be forced to kill one another. For this reason if you side with her you're as lacking in information as she is and can only conclude the Rhea is insane and essentially enslaved humanity (note: this is incorrect) and thus this will color your perspective on Edelgard who does rely less on the Agarthians in this route (which is the only conclusion I can come to unless the knights are really that much of a force multiplier) You the player are thus not going to see more of the questionable things she does but the game doesn't portray the others (barring Rhea) as any less heroic than normal, Dimitry is arguably his most sane and heroic, Claude is in over his head, and the church switches between trying to make you see reason and seeing you as the antichrist. We don't learn about the truth of nemisis so we simply seem him as a tragic freedom fighter and Edelgard as taking up his mantle, in truth we simply finish the genocide he started.

Ultimately I think it fits, Edelgard doesn't see herself as a villain, Dimitry doesn't care and simply wants revenge, Claude is just desperate to survive the world burning around him (Edelgard: your death is not in vain, Claude: we're all desperate, aren't we? Dimitry: Kill every last one of them!) These stances influence how they take their loss, Edelgard sees a total failure and just wants death/suicide by cop, Dimitry wants to fight to the last and gets his gruesome end, Claude just cuts his losses and flees if he can.

For this reason I consider Edelgard justified, she wants to restore an empire that she believes was split to weaken humanity to be slaves to the dragons, she thinks she is saving humanity from its greatest threat and that the lesser threat (or longer term, if you wish) can be removed after. However I don't consider her actions correct, as her ultimate goals are based on misinformation, in this sense she is simply wrong, her actions and goal horrid. It's why I get annoyed when people lie or misinform on the forums in arguments pro or against her.

 

Basically Edelgard thinks she's the protagonist of this:

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by CyberNinja

[HarryPotter]

16 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Is that really fair? If you were in Edelgard shoes, with the information she has, would you do any better?

Key words *information she has* 

She didn't even try to understand all sides DESPITE knowing that the world is gray. Had it been Dimitri who massacred all for the sake of purifying the world, it'd make sense since he literally went crazy with survivor's guilt and was basically f***ed up by his traumas but there's no indication in the game that Edelgard suffered mentally, enough to break her, to have her commit so much atrocity based on half-facts. I personally hate people who don't try everything but just goes, things are how they are, sigh because that is one of the stupidest responses and that's what Edelgard has done. She could've reached out for help, second opinions. She could've confronted the Church; of course she would've gone through hell but that would actually help justify her reasoning but nope, she tried nothing because she's naturally distrustful and because she believed her way was the only way without any second thoughts.

[Crysta]

Always wary when someone contends the trauma must have not been that bad just because they seem to be coping with it well, or at least better than you'd expect them to. Different people respond differently.

Wasn't she more or less a tortured science experiment?

Edited August 20, 2019 by Crysta

[CyberNinja]

11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Always wary when someone contends the trauma must have not been that bad just because they seem to be coping with it well, or at least better than you'd expect them to. Different people respond differently.

Wasn't she more or less a tortured science experiment?

Nah she was a tortured science experiment that watched her family be tortured experiments, warp and die as well as countless innocents. She's a survivor's guilt ridden possibly suicidal trauma victim with a hammer and a whole lot of nails.

[Crysta]

Just now, CyberNinja said:

Nah she was a tortured science experiment that watched her family be tortured experiments, warp and die as well as countless innocents. She's a survivor's guilt ridden possibly suicidal trauma victim with a hammer and a whole lot of nails.

Sounds fun and normal and a situation everyone would react rationally towards.