What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*

[Strullemia]

9 hours ago, MessengerIris said:

 1. I don’t see many people applauding Dimitri for being a revenge driven murderer, who coincidentally had an unintentional “good goal” of liberating his Kingdom and ending the war. His fans like him INSPITE of his murderous rampage, which I think is a little different than how Edelgard fans approach these discussions (most times it devolves into “well she HAD to, it was the only way” and “she was justified because the ends were good”). Everyone in the game makes Dimitri out to be wrong from the get go. Even Byleth disapproves of how he is acting. Dimitri’s downfall to madness is there to make him sympathetic, but nowhere does the game suggest that “this is justified and ok behavior.” Maybe it was just me, but no where in his route did I feel like “man, you know what? He had it rough, I can get behind these murders. I mean, it does work towards liberating the Kingdom.” 

2.She reminds me a lot of Thanos tbh, just without this level of fan support. MCU Thanos, too, experienced a tragedy (destruction of his homeland because of overpopulation). Both had a noble goal and felt the need to take an unpopular decisive actions. Both think they are doing the right thing, and from our perspective, we do not see them try to find less drastic alternatives. Yet, Thanos is not nearly as well-defended. Not many go around trying to say “Thanos was in the right since he had a good reason/past for wanting a good end goal.” If anything, the audience takes on the BL perspective (not as revenge crazed as Dimitri), since our heroes are defending against an aggressor and we are made to sympathize with the tragic fallout of the aggressors’ actions.  

That being said, I think people need to chill with these discussions. People can like who they like but they should stop trying to drag down other characters to elevate their own. I think everyone in this game is morally gray - just because so-and-so is bad, doesn’t automatically make Edelgard/others in the right. There is nothing wrong with liking characters that are controversial, not everyone has to be “justified” in their actions. The whole point of the game is about showing how perspectives in war really alter the lines between what is ultimately “right.”

1. You can't really compare the two though. No matter the route Edelgard moves forward with her goals to make the world a better place after the timeskip. The first thing Dimitri does post timeskip is to become a serial killer hobo who's only interaction with other people for 4 chapters or so is to act like a deranged individual. Honestly, the BL route would've made more sense if they had someone else step in for a while. It feels super weird to see people follow this guy. You can't apply that logic because Dimitri never wanted to kill Edelgard for the betterment of Fodlan, he wanted her dead for revenge.

2. Even as someone that hasn't watched Infinity War, I have difficulty believing this. People LOVE Thanos and I have seen people defend his actions saying it makes sense and some even saying that he's the good guy in the story. I even remember getting vids recommended to me after the movie came out with titles like "Thanos was right" or "Thanos is the hero".

[CyberNinja]

1 minute ago, MessengerIris said:

Whether their actions were the right course of action and justifiable? I think that’s where the point of contention comes from. No one gets as many people defending their actions as Edelgard does.

Intended or not, many did her route first, and it will color your impression of the rest of the game. Edelgard was right in that Rhea had lost her right to guide the kingdom, but Rhea herself would have told you that, its why she's so desperate to bring back Sothis, seeing that this will 'fix everything'  but due to this she has effectively abandoned her role in guiding humanity, allowing things to get as bad as they have and enabling TWSITD to gain so much influence, as well as play into El's own delusion. Despite the happy ending the the game gives you in all (known to me) routes, the story still plays out like a classic tragedy. Its why I'm so fond of it, actually.

[MessengerIris]

29 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

1. You can't really compare the two though. No matter the route Edelgard moves forward with her goals to make the world a better place after the timeskip. The first thing Dimitri does post timeskip is to become a serial killer hobo who's only interaction with other people for 4 chapters or so is to act like a deranged individual. Honestly, the BL route would've made more sense if they had someone else step in for a while. It feels super weird to see people follow this guy. You can't apply that logic because Dimitri never wanted to kill Edelgard for the betterment of Fodlan, he wanted her dead for revenge.

2. Even as someone that hasn't watched Infinity War, I have difficulty believing this. People LOVE Thanos and I have seen people defend his actions saying it makes sense and some even saying that he's the good guy in the story. I even remember getting vids recommended to me after the movie came out with titles like "Thanos was right" or "Thanos is the hero".

1. I said the game doesn’t try to sell you the fact that Dimitri is after Edelgard to save his country, and that is why he is more tolerable. You get what you see with him, and the story actively reinforces that this is not ok behavior. I mainly brought up the Dimitri perspective because someone else argued that you are a hypocrite for liking Dimitri but hating Edelgard, since both do a lot of killing. 

In my opinion, it made no sense for a lot of people to follow Edelgard too, Byleth included, at the time of the decision. Made even less sense for some people to follow her post-time skip and fight their own countries and countrymen. Honestly, more people should've been non-recruitable in BE-E, like Hilda.

2. I never said they don’t exist. But compare Thanos fans to the remaining fans of MCU, majority of people would root for the outcome of Endgame.  

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by MessengerIris

[Strullemia]

Just now, MessengerIris said:

1. I said the game doesn’t try to sell you the fact that Dimitri is after Edelgard to save his country, and that is why he is more tolerable. You get what you see with him, and the story actively reinforces that this is not ok behavior. In my opinion, it made no sense for a lot of people to follow Edelgard too, Byleth included, at the time of the decision. 

2. I never said they don’t exist. But compare Thanos fans to the remaining fans of MCU, majority of people would root for the outcome of Endgame.  

 

1. I disagree. I'm not really charmed by someone that gives up on his duties as a king and instead decides to become some crazy hobo. You can't make me believe that if you make a FE lord character act like a murderer that everyone is going to be fine with him. Just saying that it's not ok is not good enough. People should have left him when they saw what he had turned into. Hell, he's so obsessed that without Byleth he dies along with most of his friends very early on and pretty much dooms the kingdom by the chapter "Blood of the Eagle and Lion" in the GD route.

2. Well yeah I don't doubt that. Rooting for a certain outcome and defending the actions of a character isn't the same thing. People could still like Thanos for what he did and think he might have been in the right while also enjoying Endgame. Hell, a good story would have this kind of storytelling.

[CyberNinja]

12 minutes ago, MessengerIris said:

1. I said the game doesn’t try to sell you the fact that Dimitri is after Edelgard to save his country, and that is why he is more tolerable. You get what you see with him, and the story actively reinforces that this is not ok behavior. In my opinion, it made no sense for a lot of people to follow Edelgard too, Byleth included, at the time of the decision. 

2. I never said they don’t exist. But compare Thanos fans to the remaining fans of MCU, majority of people would root for the outcome of Endgame.  

 

1. This is an odd comparison because if you switched things around it would be that Edelgard is vengeful against Dimitry (read Rhea) for the explicit purpose of saving Faergus (Fodlan) while Dimitry is invading the other kingdoms (read: getting revenge on Edelgard) to sate his bloodlust. with motivation in mind Dimitry looks bad regardless, Edelgard at least is hoping for a better future and thus the story reflects that (and we lack the context to see she is wrong.)

As for joining her, I agree, most players like to choose what's best or they think is best for the future (they like golden endings) and thus are unlikely to join her. I'm in the minority in that I've always been more clannish, I got mine, others can hang. As for Byleth, consistent trait (we have no choice here) are that they are protective of their students and default to this over most responses, they are also apprehensive about killing Edelgard (BE puts it down to 50/50, GD has both responses as "I don't want to kill" or "can't we walk the same path?")

My conclusion? Ironically (barring BL, I don't know there) Black Eagles route is the closest Byleth comes to being willing to kill Edelgard (since the player gets to choose that) and yet its also the route where Byleth will be closest to her, know her story and see her vulnerable side. So for myself (it was my first route, I had no context) I defaulted to got mine, fuck Rhea, and this is a perfectly in-character response for Byleth. So there is a real reason for Byleth to join Edelgard, just know it is entirely selfish, even going against her can be seen as more a response to putting your students in danger, and being the cause of your father's death, than for it being for the good of Fodlan.

2. Given the real world political situation, strong men being willing to break convention and rules to "get it done" are popular right now and fiction has followed that trend. Edelgard plays right into that sentiment, its not a surprise she has fervent supporters.

[MessengerIris]

12 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

1. I disagree. I'm not really charmed by someone that gives up on his duties as a king and instead decides to become some crazy hobo. You can't make me believe that if you make a FE lord character act like a murderer that everyone is going to be fine with him. Just saying that it's not ok is not good enough. People should have left him when they saw what he had turned into. Hell, he's so obsessed that without Byleth he dies along with most of his friends very early on and pretty much dooms the kingdom by the chapter "Blood of the Eagle and Lion" in the GD route.

2. Well yeah I don't doubt that. Rooting for a certain outcome and defending the actions of a character isn't the same thing. People could still like Thanos for what he did and think he might have been in the right while also enjoying Endgame. Hell, a good story would have this kind of storytelling.

He didn't really give up his duties by choice in BL, he became exiled and the isolation drove him crazy. Even when crazy, people act like he is wrong. Yet, for Edelgard, I'm supposed to believe people like Ingrid/Mercedes/Marianne/Ignatz/Raphael/etc believe in fighting for her conquest? He does do his kingly duty in BE-E, and he isn't nearly as crazy. He doesn't go "my soldiers are my tools for revenge" and disapproves of Dedue and them becoming beasts. Is he still driven by revenge? Probably. But when you kill him, he is understandably pretty upset at losing his men to horrific transformations and in his opinion, senseless conquest and deaths, and he still doesn't know anything from Edelgard's perspective because she doesn't bother to even try explaining. 

That's my point, you can like who you like, no one cares. The whole argument on Edelgard is a non definitive argument since there is no clear cut answer - people need to stop trying to shove her into a "right" or "wrong" category and push that OPINION down other people's throat. People's acceptance of her is based solely on personal philsophy on whether the ends justified the means.

Edited August 20, 2019 by MessengerIris

[timon]

36 minutes ago, MessengerIris said:

1. I said the game doesn’t try to sell you the fact that Dimitri is after Edelgard to save his country, and that is why he is more tolerable. You get what you see with him, and the story actively reinforces that this is not ok behavior. I mainly brought up the Dimitri perspective because someone else argued that you are a hypocrite for liking Dimitri but hating Edelgard, since both do a lot of killing. 

In my opinion, it made no sense for a lot of people to follow Edelgard too, Byleth included, at the time of the decision. Made even less sense for some people to follow her post-time skip and fight their own countries and countrymen. Honestly, more people should've been non-recruitable in BE-E, like Hilda.

It's your opinion, but I absolutely don't get it. Let's say for a moment that they're on the same level, doing something while knowing it's wrong is much worse than doing it because you think it's right. And that doesn't even take into consideration that one is doing it completely out of revenge while the other does it (or think she does it, that's another discussion point) for a good purpose.

On the "make sense to follow who", tbh I see it the opposite way. I presume everyone has seen or at least heard what Rhea did and what she became, I think more people should not be able to be recruited if you side with a mad dragon than with an idealistic conqueror. Also the fact that Hilda is not recruitable in that route is one of the worst and least sensible decisions in this game, it literally doesn't make any sense that you can't get Hilda (in the route that already restricts recruitment the most) when you can get someone like Ingrid (who despises the empire) or Shamir (who works personally for Rhea).

[Troykv]

Getting Shamir is a bit whatever because of the fact she only worked because of her debt; she would get attached to other side if she thinks has already completed her previous work.

Now Ingrid is a different story; and I am also confused about it.

[Strullemia]

8 minutes ago, MessengerIris said:

He didn't really give up his duties by choice, he became exiled and the isolation drove him crazy. He does do his king duty in BE-E, and he isn't nearly as crazy. He doesn't go "my soldiers are my tools for revenge" and disapproves of Dedue and them becoming beasts. 

That's my point, you can like who you like, no one cares. The whole argument on Edelgard is a non definitive argument since there is no clear cut answer - people need to stop trying to shove her into a "right" or "wrong" category and push that opinion down other people's throat. People's acceptance of her is based solely on personal philsophy on whether the ends justified the means.

I agree that there's no clear cut answer and that we shouldn't shove her in right or wrong. Just didn't agree with that comparison was all.

[CyberNinja]

4 minutes ago, timon said:

On the "make sense to follow who", tbh I see it the opposite way. I presume everyone has seen or at least heard what Rhea did and what she became, I think more people should not be able to be recruited if you side with a mad dragon than with an idealistic conqueror. Also the fact that Hilda is not recruitable in that route is one of the worst and least sensible decisions in this game, it literally doesn't make any sense that you can't get Hilda (in the route that already restricts recruitment the most) when you can get someone like Ingrid (who despises the empire) or Shamir (who works personally for Rhea).

Less so since Claude gives orders to surrender and join Edelgard if he loses. Although I assume its because she's supposed to die in that battle regardless (like you with Claude, I accidentally'd Hilda) I originally figured that since her role was essentially the same as Hubert and Dedue that she was unrecruitable and her lost item drops was an oversight for that route.

[MessengerIris]

1 hour ago, timon said:

It's your opinion, but I absolutely don't get it. Let's say for a moment that they're on the same level, doing something while knowing it's wrong is much worse than doing it because you think it's right. And that doesn't even take into consideration that one is doing it completely out of revenge while the other does it (or think she does it, that's another discussion point) for a good purpose.

On the "make sense to follow who", tbh I see it the opposite way. I presume everyone has seen or at least heard what Rhea did and what she became, I think more people should not be able to be recruited if you side with a mad dragon than with an idealistic conqueror. Also the fact that Hilda is not recruitable in that route is one of the worst and least sensible decisions in this game, it literally doesn't make any sense that you can't get Hilda (in the route that already restricts recruitment the most) when you can get someone like Ingrid (who despises the empire) or Shamir (who works personally for Rhea).

It IS an opinion, and I don't think you have to subscribe by it. This is a concept a lot of people have a hard time accepting - these perceptions of characters are OPINIONS and you won't get a unanimous agreeement because everyone's worldview is different (some people think the ends do justify the means, vice versa), so people should stop trying so hard. I'm just shedding light on why a lot of people have problems with Edelgard. Even if Dimitri and others did not exist, I'd still have a problem with Edelgard. It's not hypocritical to like one and not the other because their stories are written differently, with a different purpose. I condone neither of their actions. I can even appreciate Edelgard for having the balls to get shit done, but her logic and methods? Those leave a lot to be desired, just like how I don't go around defending Dimitri for how he acts either.

People can like characters INSPITE of their actions. For me, Dimitri grew up and gained insight to realize he was wrong and would not repeat the same actions if he could go back. I don't think the same of Edelgard (again, agree or not, that's your choice)

At the time you choose to side with Edelgard, she doesn't give you much reason to. You don't know much besides she is the Flame Emperor here to commit a crime (rob the tomb) and will kill anyone who gets in her way. I don't think Hilda was the best choice, clearly other people should've been non-recruitable. Honestly, they should’ve just severely limited the recruitment for all routes just to make it really hurt during the war. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by MessengerIris

[Landmaster]

4 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

Its the fact that I can confirm that many posts about Edelgard have been outright lies (which I can confirm by checking the events in the extras menu) when its really not necessary to do so to make a case against her. I'm simply annoyed at the dishonest nature that the conversation has taken for some members of this board. As I am starting on BL and have finished GD and CF I can confirm when I'm being lied to about two routes but likely won't notice if someone says something incorrect or dishonest about the church or Blue lions route, so at the moment I find myself antagonistic towards many first time BL players because they are the ones I can tell either haven't done CF or GD, or are simply being dishonest.

If you actually read what I typed instead of just getting in your feelings about my dislike of Edelgard, I have stated in every post that I have only played BL and GD and am only now playing BE~ So whatever you consider as "lies" are Events that unfold in both of those storylines and that is all I have to go on in regards to her personality which shows her exactly as I have stated.

[CyberNinja]

2 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

If you actually read what I typed instead of just getting in your feelings about my dislike of Edelgard, I have stated in every post that I have only played BL and GD and am only now playing BE~ So whatever you consider as "lies" are Events that unfold in both of those storylines and that is all I have to go on in regards to her personality which shows her exactly as I have stated.

Odd I don't believe I mentioned you at all in that post~

[Landmaster]

1 minute ago, CyberNinja said:

Odd I don't believe I mentioned you at all in that post~

The very first thing you said to me was: "have you considered that its poor form to be openly dishonest" and then continued with "I find myself antagonistic towards many first time BL players because they are the ones I can tell either haven't done CF or GD, or are simply being dishonest" in your last post.

So you clearly did find something I said as "dishonest" and I'm telling you that it's not. I can't go by what you played for my opinion on Edelgard because I stated several times I've only played GD and BL.

[CyberNinja]

Just now, Landmaster said:

The very first thing you said to me was: "have you considered that its poor form to be openly dishonest" and then continued with "I find myself antagonistic towards many first time BL players because they are the ones I can tell either haven't done CF or GD, or are simply being dishonest" in your last post.

So you clearly did find something I said as "dishonest" and I'm telling you that it's not. I can't go by what you played for my opinion on Edelgard because I stated several times I've only played GD and BL.

I have also accused others as misrepresenting Golden Deer and Crimson Flower and specifically did not mention anyone by name, if I wished specifically to dig at you, I'd have quoted or specifically named you so that you knew as much. The fact of the matter is that first time CF players will be biased towards Edelgard and First time BL players will be biased against her as these routes either play her as a hero or villain while GD takes a more evenhanded approach. So I have simply stated that I have come into disagreement with mostly first time BL players, which is a statement of fact rather than anything else and connects specifically to my statement that I won't notice any misrepresentation of the Church or Blue lions route. I.E. I haven't accused anyone of lying about these routes because I wouldn't know if they were, it is little more than an acknowledgement of my own bias than a dig at anyone in particular. So I say again, I'm rather confused that you've taken it as such.

 

As for calling you dishonest, I did indeed consider you to have a dishonest demeanor in regards to your portrayal of the Golden Deer route saying Edelgard has shown no remorse when there is a cutscene showing her break down and beg to be killed to end all the fighting. The discussion moved on and became about whether it was more regret at failure than remorse for the lost of life and eventually petered out. Not to mention that there is 17 hours between these two comments so there really isn't much connection between them. Now I'm wondering why you're choosing to pick a fight with me over this.

[Landmaster]

2 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

I have also accused others as misrepresenting Golden Deer and Crimson Flower and specifically did not mention anyone by name, if I wished specifically to dig at you, I'd have quoted or specifically named you so that you knew as much. The fact of the matter is that first time CF players will be biased towards Edelgard and First time BL players will be biased against her as these routes either play her as a hero or villain while GD takes a more evenhanded approach. So I have simply stated that I have come into disagreement with mostly first time BL players, which is a statement of fact rather than anything else and connects specifically to my statement that I won't notice any misrepresentation of the Church or Blue lions route. I.E. I haven't accused anyone of lying about these routes because I wouldn't know if they were, it is little more than an acknowledgement of my own bias than a dig at anyone in particular. So I say again, I'm rather confused that you've taken it as such.

 

As for calling you dishonest, I did indeed consider you to have a dishonest demeanor in regards to your portrayal of the Golden Deer route saying Edelgard has shown no remorse when there is a cutscene showing her break down and beg to be killed to end all the fighting. The discussion moved on and became about whether it was more regret at failure than remorse for the lost of life and eventually petered out. Not to mention that there is 17 hours between these two comments so there really isn't much connection between them. Now I'm wondering why you're choosing to pick a fight with me over this.

I'm not picking a fight with you about anything. You did quote me. You quoted me first, in fact, so of course I'm going to respond. I only quoted you in response to you quoting me and saying that what I said was dishonest to explain that I didn't find anything that I said to be dishonest.

Yes, there is such a cutscene where she begs to be killed to end all the fighting. Which I then said she was the one who started in the first place. As for how the discussion moved on, I'm not on this forum 24 hours a day. If I see I'm being quoted, I respond to the post in question. Not whatever was said after, as that isn't really my of my concern. I'm just here clarifying my own viewpoint.

[Troykv]

What even he was originally quoting anyway?

[CyberNinja]

22 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

I'm not picking a fight with you about anything. You did quote me. You quoted me first, in fact, so of course I'm going to respond. I only quoted you in response to you quoting me and saying that what I said was dishonest to explain that I didn't find anything that I said to be dishonest.

 Yes, there is such a cutscene where she begs to be killed to end all the fighting. Which I then said she was the one who started in the first place. As for how the discussion moved on, I'm not on this forum 24 hours a day. If I see I'm being quoted, I respond to the post in question. Not whatever was said after, as that isn't really my of my concern. I'm just here clarifying my own viewpoint.

So I did, fair enough.

 

12 hours ago, Landmaster said:

I don't see anything hypocritical that I've said. Edelgard asking Byleth to kill her does not erase that she started the massacre in the first place. She literally set the killing into motion herself and admitted that she is perfectly fine sacrificing innocents or civilians for her ambitions. 

And Dimitri, at no point, acts as though his actions are justified. He like never denied that he is a wretch for all of the people he's killed over the 5 years he's sought revenge. So I really don't see how that's relevant. 

 

14 minutes ago, Troykv said:

What even he was originally quoting anyway?

The above, it appears I was mistaken.

 

Although now it seems I'll get dinged for doubleposting... how do I delete or merge?

MOD EDIT: No you won't~!  You did exactly what you needed to, so all you get is a silly message from me~!

Edited August 20, 2019 by eclipse

[Holder of the Heel]

13 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

As for calling you dishonest, I did indeed consider you to have a dishonest demeanor in regards to your portrayal of the Golden Deer route saying Edelgard has shown no remorse when there is a cutscene showing her break down and beg to be killed to end all the fighting.

I took it to mean that because she knew she had clearly lost, all of the fighting happening in that moment across Fodlan was now happening over a contest that was already decided, and so they need to hurry up and officially conclude the battle with her death so someone can go out and say that the one giving the order for war is gone. It was the single thing she did that aimed to limit casualties and was a nice moment even for me as someone critical of her. 

Pretty strange how different that all goes down in Azure Moon. She is way more spiteful there and willing to sacrifice her humanity.

[MessengerIris]

2 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

1. This is an odd comparison because if you switched things around it would be that Edelgard is vengeful against Dimitry (read Rhea) for the explicit purpose of saving Faergus (Fodlan) while Dimitry is invading the other kingdoms (read: getting revenge on Edelgard) to sate his bloodlust. with motivation in mind Dimitry looks bad regardless, Edelgard at least is hoping for a better future and thus the story reflects that (and we lack the context to see she is wrong.)

As for joining her, I agree, most players like to choose what's best or they think is best for the future (they like golden endings) and thus are unlikely to join her. I'm in the minority in that I've always been more clannish, I got mine, others can hang. As for Byleth, consistent trait (we have no choice here) are that they are protective of their students and default to this over most responses, they are also apprehensive about killing Edelgard (BE puts it down to 50/50, GD has both responses as "I don't want to kill" or "can't we walk the same path?")

My conclusion? Ironically (barring BL, I don't know there) Black Eagles route is the closest Byleth comes to being willing to kill Edelgard (since the player gets to choose that) and yet its also the route where Byleth will be closest to her, know her story and see her vulnerable side. So for myself (it was my first route, I had no context) I defaulted to got mine, fuck Rhea, and this is a perfectly in-character response for Byleth. So there is a real reason for Byleth to join Edelgard, just know it is entirely selfish, even going against her can be seen as more a response to putting your students in danger, and being the cause of your father's death, than for it being for the good of Fodlan.

2. Given the real world political situation, strong men being willing to break convention and rules to "get it done" are popular right now and fiction has followed that trend. Edelgard plays right into that sentiment, its not a surprise she has fervent supporters.

1. I am only pointing out the fact that liking one but hating the other is NOT considered hypocritical. Both were wrong, in their misguided motivations and their actions. Neither whose actions can be justified by their past, but in BL, this concept is EXPLORED but NOT done so in CF to the same capacity. 

If Dimitri’s route became “revenge fantasy, lets get her head -> yay, we won and coincidentally unintentionally also stopped the war”, people would have a problem with his route too. If that was the case, I’ll say Edelgard is better solely because she started off with good intent (vs Dimitri’s revenge), but that clearly isn’t the case if you play BL.

BL’s main purpose is to show you what happens during war and how it makes everyone monsters (when you get to it, listen to Randolph/Dimitri discussion, it was a self-aware reflection on how insane people get during war). No one is more “justified” to kill for war because (1) killing is not a personal sacrifice, you are making other people sacrifice for your goals (2) everyone thinks they are fighting for the “right” thing, as misguided as their reasoning may be.  Ontop of that, Dimitri feels remorse and would change his actions if he could do it all over again. Can you say the same for Edelgard? She mainly regrets not trying harder and doing things better during the war because it dragged out and caused more lives that she did not anticipate.  

2. I’ll agree with the sentiment that it is on trend, but whether or not doing anything “to get things done” is justified is a matter of opinion, so people are literally talking in circles for discussions like these. 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by MessengerIris

[LukeKardoso]

Wow, I am new to this conversation, and I haven't read everything because it is too much info, but I got some info of people saying that Edelgard is on the wrong side, that even though her ideals are good her methods are wrong.

 

And in the end you guys might be right. She did a lot of things that are morally wrong, making her definitely a villain character. However, we need to consider that siding with her makes total sense, especially if you are going for the S support with her. We know that Edelgard won't change her mind even with you side with her, so the only thing left for Byleth(avatar) to do is to join forces with her and walk down this dark path with her.

 

We see Edelgard dying by the lance of Dimitri in the BL route and Byleth didn't even care. We see Byleth killing Edelgard in the Church and in the GD route with some hesitation, but in the end he did what must be done. However in the Crimson Flower route, we can definitely see that Byleth is too fond of Edelgard, and so is she with him. The chemistry between the two is so strong(much stronger than with Dimitri and Claude in their routes) that siding with her makes total sense. That happens because, If you can't change the mind of the one you love, so join her in the path to hell. At least that is what I think, and that is why I find this game so good and tragic at the same time.

 

I played the Crimson Flower path first, and I grown too fond of Edelgard. To me it does not matter if she is good or evil. But not having her as my lord and having to face and kill her in the other paths makes the other paths much harder for me to play.

[Crysta]

Edelgard fans seem intent on vilifying Rhea more than they have to and Dimitri fans seem to intent on vilifying Edelgard more than they have to in order to justify why their fav is less morally suspect than the others. And they get mad when the other camp attempts to justify the behavior of the bad guy in their respective routes. As a Claude fan who doesn't have any particular emotional attachment to either, it's fascinating to watch unfold lol

Dimitri is a better person because the game does make it obvious he's so far gone after the time skip but his route throws him a poorly executed redemption arc, while with Edelgard it seems they're more intent on humanizing what starts as a villainous character (the game literally opens with an assassination attempt she orchestrated). Can't make the judgment call on which route does their aim better because I've only played through one and I'm skimming through another (class is starting soon and I don't think I can drop in another 50 hours in gameplay), but I don't think you can expect their stories to be handled the same way and have a viable morally gray route.

Then again I could see people choosing the blatant Darth Vader route just for the funsies. You're probably not going to get the same "they did nothing wrong!" arguments, though.

 

[Sentinel07]

29 minutes ago, LukeKardoso said:

Wow, I am new to this conversation, and I haven't read everything because it is too much info, but I got some info of people saying that Edelgard is on the wrong side, that even though her ideals are good her methods are wrong.

 

And in the end you guys might be right. She did a lot of things that are morally wrong, making her definitely a villain character. However, we need to consider that siding with her makes total sense, especially if you are going for the S support with her. We know that Edelgard won't change her mind even with you side with her, so the only thing left for Byleth(avatar) to do is to join forces with her and walk down this dark path with her.

 

We see Edelgard dying by the lance of Dimitri in the BL route and Byleth didn't even care. We see Byleth killing Edelgard in the Church and in the GD route with some hesitation, but in the end he did what must be done. However in the Crimson Flower route, we can definitely see that Byleth is too fond of Edelgard, and so is she with him. The chemistry between the two is so strong(much stronger than with Dimitri and Claude in their routes) that siding with her makes total sense. That happens because, If you can't change the mind of the one you love, so join her in the path to hell. At least that is what I think, and that is why I find this game so good and tragic at the same time.

 

I played the Crimson Flower path first, and I grown too fond of Edelgard. To me it does not matter if she is good or evil. But not having her as my lord and having to face and kill her in the other paths makes the other paths much harder for me to play.

Your view sounds incredibly biased. Byleth has strong bonds with all the Lords. Saying Edelgard is better has no facts behind it other than you talking behind rose-colored glasses.

Join the one you love on the path to hell? What moronic logic. You sound like a blind shipper.

[LukeKardoso]

1 hour ago, Sentinel07 said:

Your view sounds incredibly biased. Byleth has strong bonds with all the Lords. Saying Edelgard is better has no facts behind it other than you talking behind rose-colored glasses.

Join the one you love on the path to hell? What moronic logic. You sound like a blind shipper.

Well, that is what I at least think. 

Sorry my boi, I didn't want to anger you or anything like that, I only thought that this is a plausible motive for Byleth to go to the Crimson Flower route. Sorry if my response was not adequate or appropriate. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by LukeKardoso

[MessengerIris]

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

Edelgard fans seem intent on vilifying Rhea more than they have to and Dimitri fans seem to intent on vilifying Edelgard more than they have to in order to justify why their fav is less morally suspect than the others. And they get mad when the other camp attempts to justify the behavior of the bad guy in their respective routes. As a Claude fan who doesn't have any particular emotional attachment to either, it's fascinating to watch unfold lol

Dimitri is a better person because the game does make it obvious he's so far gone after the time skip but his route throws him a poorly executed redemption arc, while with Edelgard it seems they're more intent on humanizing what starts as a villainous character (the game literally opens with an assassination attempt she orchestrated). Can't make the judgment call on which route does their aim better because I've only played through one and I'm skimming through another (class is starting soon and I don't think I can drop in another 50 hours in gameplay), but I don't think you can expect their stories to be handled the same way and have a viable morally gray route.

Then again I could see people choosing the blatant Darth Vader route just for the funsies. You're probably not going to get the same "they did nothing wrong!" arguments, though.

 

This is why I feel like discussions like these get way out of hand and get us nowhere. People should like who they like, but there is no need to involve other characters (only reason I even brought up Dimitri is because there was the idea that liking one = dishonest hypocrite to hate the other). I didn’t even vilifying her, I just said that I didn’t really like how at the end of the day, she didn’t really change (not the point of her story) = naturally, a lot of people will have a problem with her when they play the other routes and see how misguided, but good intentioned, she was, since it wasn’t dealt with on her own route. 

People mainly run into pushback when they go around justifying their faves actions with blinders on.

None of these people were completely in the right, and just because someone else is slightly more right/wrong than the other, doesn’t automatically make their faves justified and right as a result. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by MessengerIris