What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*

[Tenzen12]

 I did say there is bad apple here and there. And if you want talk about paralogues I remember some where nobles fight bandit protect civilians and other where they fight invaders.

[Tarul]

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18 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

 

I think TWSITD is the angle that should have been completely fleshed out more. like we get bits and pieces on all the sides- but not enough to really....be like WOW. this is everything. so each angle has a legitimate grasp on the situation. (so yeah sort of like you  because of that i wish it was removed because i feel it was just more of a "oh wait! THERE'S MORE!" on Claude's path, and the "and what the what now? for Edelgard."

Now - my thoughts on El. 
Like Dimitri and Claude  - i love that she's morally grey and willing to be dark and dirty when need be. However-basically since the GD Path (my first one) for a lack of a better term/example I kept calling El "Hitler/Mussolini - or for GoT Fans, Dany." because she has no qualms of burning it all to the ground to do what she believes is right and she doesn't have the self awareness- or doesn't care (which is more apt) that her way is basically the underside of the coin of what she hates.  - and because of the failure of the game (if it's there I do apologise - I did rush through CF so i wanted to be able to discuss) to explain some key aspects (rather than handwaving it as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend") - I ultimately still don't have much....time for her. I can empathize (and even see why she's motivated to do it) - but I don't buy it - not in the way I feel the game kind of wants you to. 

I think the main issue is this. 
Claude and Edelgard - very much have the same missions. 

1: they don't believe in the Goddess, the church of Seiros. both hate the blind devotion a lot of people tend to give the church - refusing to accept to just be "told" what to do - or accept anything good or bad is due to the will of the Goddess. Claude (with supports with Petra) is willing to consider everything - praising/blessing Nature and the other spirits as well as the sense/logic in his own head. However he also doesn't flat out dismiss others who are whole-heartedly devoted to having a touchstone such as the goddess. Just asks them to be open minded.

Edelgard - not so much. She hates the Church because the Church puts importance on the Crests. The  importance of Crests is what caused her to go through the blood transplants that killed her entire family and caused her suffering. she survived because she was strong, thus you can be strong too  and you can do whatever you want, and the church will be removed. and if you don't agree- you'll be eliminated.  Where as Claude relishes the debate (even if some choices give you a sour result/support down) - he can see that coin. anything basically not agreeing with Edelgard is a support down and she snaps at you for Joking/not being serious or not thinking her determined. She is single focused on imposing her will and there is no space for other beliefs. 

2: They both want unification. 
Claude: wants unification because as someone who has lived outside and inside of Fòdlan - if you are different, you are seen as trash. It's what caused him to always be thinking several steps ahead, and plan for success as well as failure because he's constantly been at the bottom - despite having much. his dream is to end xenophobia  -however - I also feel  -if he and Dimitri just had a long conversation - he'd be fine (as evidenced in BL path) -dissolving the alliance as long as his goal of "no xenophobia." was accomplished - or still have the Empire/Kingdom/Alliance - but no one side-eyed anyone for being you know, from Duscar, or Brigid or Almyra or Dagda, and what not.  I never once felt that to accomplish his goal, he'd target to conquer the Kingdom or the Empire - but basically be all Martin Luther King Jr, and try to peach it out. 

Edelgard: wants unification to stamp out the church and have humans decide their own fate. - which in time can develop into a xenophobia on its own. it was mentioned in the BL path- having something to believe in - isn't weakness it's a different kind of strength, so why are you punishing those who want it. Edelgard's reply was something basically like well. too bad for them. I know better. this is the only way. someone above said "where there is smoke, there is fire, but where there is fire  - there is a fuel." yes - i agree. but is the fuel - actually right and justified? (IMO - no). again- the motivation is stemmed from the torture she gained.. but what if Rhea was wrong and there were more Sothis children kicking about? would they be eliminated quickly (because of their power/not humans?) like how far does this go? pretty damned far as El has proven

i feel that Claude - always strives for understanding for every angle  where Edelgard (like Rhea) feels she doesn't need to - because she's right. and i feel the fact that Edelgard can't see how much she's like Rhea (you don't get a cookie for giving people a chance to flee, because if they don't, you'd have no qualms burning it all the ground anyway). and willing to sacrifice anything to get her way and what she wants. even the death quotes between Rhea/Edelgard are the same. Thank you for your sacrifice. You sacrificed much for MY belief. MY Will. What I FEEL IS RIGHT.  Where as Claude/Dimitri are truly impacted by each and every single death they encounter  and wished there was another way - a way to save them, and perhaps another way to achieve the goals they believe is right for the country they are fighting for. 

I wish - in a sense the game had had the guts to double down on the fact that Edelgard is very much unbending. (I think they try to have her toe a line - and I don't think the line was needed. I am not a fan of her - but i love the character/character development even though i feel there are some holes - holes that are slightly patched up in the DLC -but not big enough for me to go "yeah but, tho.")

I ultimately feel that Edelgard is a dictator who  - while has compassion for her friends, will have no qualms sacrificing all for her end game - and that ultimately her end game waswrong and misguided, driven by her past. (I honestly don't know in other playthroughs if i'd even PLAY the BE path again - (I am doing the BE church route now so maybe some other things will be addressed).  I feel the real true story is with Claude/Dimitri. (and this is coming from someone who thought the Dimitri-line was going to be the worst one lol). 
 

(I am sorry that my view on Edelgard is so tied up into everyone else, but i felt to better explain my standing this was the best way).  

 

These are some excellent points! Claude/Edelgard have tons of similarity in their dreams, as they're both revolutionaries. I do have two food-for-thought items that are worth considering.

1. While Claude and Edelgard's goals have the similar result of unification, their ultimate objectives are different, and thus the world they create is very different. Edelgard's primary objective is to overthrow the church and the current corrupt nobility system, which requires conquering the Fodlan due to the other countries' blind devotion to Seiros (which honestly isn't true; I'm willing to bet that if Edelgard just talked with Dimitri + Claude, they could have had a bloodless revolution/serious reform, tbh. Only problem would be that said peaceful revolution would take a while, whereas Edelgard wants change NOW). Claude's objective is to open the borders to end racism (what a legend), which involves conquering Fodlan and slightly reform in the church. Claude doesn't really care too much about changing how nobility are elected, or whether the church should be allowed to have as much soft power as it currently does (e.g. the church's ability to act as judge and executioner...although it is implied that he's opposed to such devices).

Thus, Claude's goals would cause change on the macro-scale (Fodlan and its neighbors), while Edel's are focused on the micro-scale (the people and the nobility/church)

2. It's difficult to assess whether Claude would have taken the high-road had Edelgard not existed. Claude has the convenience of Edelgard starting the war and none of the associated baggage- simply by doing the right thing and properly winning the war, he achieves his dreams of unification (and the church's tight grip on Fodlan's borders was already solved by the removal by Edelgard; her re-instantiation and powers would depend on Claude's support). We don't know how Claude would have achieved his dreams otherwise. He's shown to be a schemer - and a dangerous one too - learning to use odorless poisons, raising cities with fire, and subterfuge. Had the war not started, we can't be sure that Claude wouldn't have stealthily murdered all other nobles in Alliance territory for control, and then maybe poisoned the Empire/Kingdom had they not come to understand his perspective (which he probably wouldn't have had to do, since he was on pretty good terms with the other rulers pre-timeskip).

Ultimately, I think the similarity in Claude/Edel's goals is why Claude's route sounds like an optimal solution to most of Fodlan's negative qualities, on the macro- and micro-scales. When he takes over, Edel has already revolutionized society by de-emphasizing the necessity of the Church and removing corruption in the nobilities; qualities that can remain under Claude's rule. Now that Edel has done the hard and dangerous work, Claude just has to add his objectives (opening the borders), which are a lot less risky when he controls the entire country/continent/whatever the entity is by the end.

BTW, this is NO DEFENCE FOR EDELGARD. She's basically Mussolini. But, it's worth mentioning that Claude seems to be a saint because he never had to get his hands morally dirty to conquer the land (i.e. start the entire 5 year war).

 

[daisy jane]

3 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

 I did say there is bad apple here and there. And if you want talk about paralogues I remember some where nobles fight bandit protect civilians and other where they fight invaders.

that's basically how i see it. 
there are really rotten apples in the nobility - but there are really great ones too. 
 

 

4 minutes ago, Tarul said:

 

These are some excellent points! Claude/Edelgard have tons of similarity in their dreams, as they're both revolutionaries. I do have two food-for-thought items that are worth considering.

1. While Claude and Edelgard's goals have the similar result of unification, their ultimate objectives are different, and thus the world they create is very different. Edelgard's primary objective is to overthrow the church and the current corrupt nobility system, which requires conquering the Fodlan due to the other countries' blind devotion to Seiros (which honestly isn't true; I'm willing to bet that if Edelgard just talked with Dimitri + Claude, they could have had a bloodless revolution/serious reform, tbh. Only problem would be that said peaceful revolution would take a while, whereas Edelgard wants change NOW). Claude's objective is to open the borders to end racism (what a legend), which involves conquering Fodlan and slightly reform in the church. Claude doesn't really care too much about changing how nobility are elected, or whether the church should be allowed to have as much soft power as it currently does (e.g. the church's ability to act as judge and executioner...although it is implied that he's opposed to such devices).

Thus, Claude's goals would cause change on the macro-scale (Fodlan and its neighbors), while Edel's are focused on the micro-scale (the people and the nobility/church)

2. It's difficult to assess whether Claude would have taken the high-road had Edelgard not existed. Claude has the convenience of Edelgard starting the war and none of the associated baggage- simply by doing the right thing and properly winning the war, he achieves his dreams of unification (and the church's tight grip on Fodlan's borders was already solved by the removal by Edelgard; her re-instantiation and powers would depend on Claude's support). We don't know how Claude would have achieved his dreams otherwise. He's shown to be a schemer - and a dangerous one too - learning to use odorless poisons, raising cities with fire, and subterfuge. Had the war not started, we can't be sure that Claude wouldn't have stealthily murdered all other nobles in Alliance territory for control, and then maybe poisoned the Empire/Kingdom had they not come to understand his perspective (which he probably wouldn't have had to do, since he was on pretty good terms with the other rulers pre-timeskip).

Ultimately, I think the similarity in Claude/Edel's goals is why Claude's route sounds like an optimal solution to most of Fodlan's negative qualities, on the macro- and micro-scales. When he takes over, Edel has already revolutionized society by de-emphasizing the necessity of the Church and removing corruption in the nobilities; qualities that can remain under Claude's rule. Now that Edel has done the hard and dangerous work, Claude just has to add his objectives (opening the borders), which are a lot less risky when he controls the entire country/continent/whatever the entity is by the end.

BTW, this is NO DEFENCE FOR EDELGARD. She's basically Mussolini. But, it's worth mentioning that Claude seems to be a saint because he never had to get his hands morally dirty to conquer the land (i.e. start the entire 5 year war).

 

that is also extremely true. Claude - never really had the opportunity to show his true hand. nor had to be aggressive to start (so we don't know - so i'm sorry if i romanticised him a bit - i can not lie i fell utterly in love with him playing Golden Deer so reading it does make me seem kinda biased - though again I do firmly believe he's morally grey too. - he just never had to unleash it full throttle like the other two did). so I completely utterly amend that - it's very true. we don't know what lengths he'd stoop to (which - judging by the fact he doesn't mind to have time delay poisons - is pretty low)

however i do think because of his reactions to Dimitri/Hubert and other people on two of three paths (actually maybe even CF). his first reaction even when conquered - was to talk.not fight. (now this could him trying to get another edge - but i i think he'd scheme.... if he had to. not his first choice) - but yes we'd never know. 

[Tarul]

5 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

however i do think because of his reactions to Dimitri/Hubert and other people on two of three paths (actually maybe even CF). his first reaction even when conquered - was to talk.not fight. (now this could him trying to get another edge - but i i think he'd scheme.... if he had to. not his first choice) - but yes we'd never know. 

Oh, I definitely agree. When your objective is to open the lands and let cultures communicate, you have to be willing to listen, discuss and hear the otherside. Between his virtues and Claude's general dislike of war (his reactions to the deaths and sacrifices of his friends), it's very likely that Claude would prefer to whip out his silver tongue over the bottle of poison.

But the bottle of poison is there!

I think we, as a community, don't give Rhea enough flack for creating the entire situation. I mean, she invented an organized religion devoted to herself and her mom, and then regularly ordained the establishment/operation of all nation-states within Fodlan. All racism and general hatred of counter-thought can be associated with her policies. Furthermore, it's shown that she's more concerned with how the nations follow the Church's doctrines than their treatment of civilians. She has no problem with the Empire taxing its subjects to death, but has a problem when minor lords start displaying hostility towards the Church (which she reacts to with HELLA FORCE)

[Flere210]

If there was no Rhea system, Dagda would have conquered Fodlan ages ago.

[timon]

The Hitler/Mussolini analogy is a bit much imo, I've seen it brought up a couple times, but she's more of a Ceasar or a Napoleon, she's a conqueror not a fascist. The difference is that once on the seat of power she doesn't exactly push repression, she doesn't only use force but diplomacy as well (those two things aren't unrelated btw), and the ideals she pursues are probably the opposite of fascism (which is basically wanting (and forcing) people to act or be in a certain way, she wants to tear down exactly that).

And that's when you face her, when you side with her she's not even much of a conqueror, let's not forget (again) that she's not the one declaring war on Kingdom and Alliance, she declares war on the Church. Now admittedly even a brick wall could figure out that the (HOLY) Kingdom would take their defense, but as I've already stated previously, it's extremely idiotic (and a bit contradictory) of Claude to take the Church's side, he actually should lean more on the Edelgard side. But obviously he can't because the whole point of the game is a three way conflict.

To answer other points brought up, the nobility system is not good, our own history has already proven that. "Protect the commoners" is not only a stretch (you don't even need paralogues, the main story is sufficient to see that it's not how it goes), but an excuse for power. And on a deeper level, security over freedom is just not a good trade.

[daisy jane]

8 minutes ago, timon said:

The Hitler/Mussolini analogy is a bit much imo, I've seen it brought up a couple times, but she's more of a Ceasar or a Napoleon, she's a conqueror not a fascist. The difference is that once on the seat of power she doesn't exactly push repression, she doesn't only use force but diplomacy as well (those two things aren't unrelated btw), and the ideals she pursues are probably the opposite of fascism (which is basically wanting (and forcing) people to act or be in a certain way, she wants to tear down exactly that).

And that's when you face her, when you side with her she's not even much of a conqueror, let's not forget (again) that she's not the one declaring war on Kingdom and Alliance, she declares war on the Church. Now admittedly even a brick wall could figure out that the (HOLY) Kingdom would take their defense, but as I've already stated previously, it's extremely idiotic (and a bit contradictory) of Claude to take the Church's side, he actually should lean more on the Edelgard side. But obviously he can't because the whole point of the game is a three way conflict.

To answer other points brought up, the nobility system is not good, our own history has already proven that. "Protect the commoners" is not only a stretch (you don't even need paralogues, the main story is sufficient to see that it's not how it goes), but an excuse for power. And on a deeper level, security over freedom is just not a good trade.

 

how is she not fascist? 
"do what i want, or i'll end you."
"i know this is the best way for you and if you don't agree, I'll end you."
That's pretty clear cut to me - however  in honour of fairness, i can easily amend that to more of Edel is a Caesar-ish character if that's more comfortable.

 

26 minutes ago, Tarul said:

Oh, I definitely agree. When your objective is to open the lands and let cultures communicate, you have to be willing to listen, discuss and hear the otherside. Between his virtues and Claude's general dislike of war (his reactions to the deaths and sacrifices of his friends), it's very likely that Claude would prefer to whip out his silver tongue over the bottle of poison.

But the bottle of poison is there!

I think we, as a community, don't give Rhea enough flack for creating the entire situation. I mean, she invented an organized religion devoted to herself and her mom, and then regularly ordained the establishment/operation of all nation-states within Fodlan. All racism and general hatred of counter-thought can be associated with her policies. Furthermore, it's shown that she's more concerned with how the nations follow the Church's doctrines than their treatment of civilians. She has no problem with the Empire taxing its subjects to death, but has a problem when minor lords start displaying hostility towards the Church (which she reacts to with HELLA FORCE)

 

Rhea again - is that deliciously blend of morally grey (and creepy).  - whoops - hit submit too soon. I've been ignoring many Rhea-stuff because i needed the full view  - but basically, from how i see it is that she wanted to prevent what happened on the Tailtean plains/people coming against her/her family again. so by making the best of a bloody situation - honouring the relics, honouring the saints etc - it's to bring honour to their needless deaths. which - at the time probably seemed the best way for her to get peace as well as try to heal the wounds that that battle caused for the entire continent.

however - Rhea was either always My Way Or Else - or other little things happened. (I'm leaning to the MWOE scenario). but you get why she moved swiftly. execute those who rebel against the church because  if not - something horrible will happen- which - happened because  she wasn't more open minded and willing to be a better religious leader about caring for the people. I do find it a cop-out that both GD/BL make it like "Rhea can't go on so thus Byleth is now the archbishop." vs at least on the GD path people flat out telling her how freaking wrong she was. (even in her S Support she finally gives some sort of 'yahh maybe i screwed up." but that is like.. not enough IMO. considering that there are no supports with anyone else - you only see the rhea through her actions

the one who will kill without thinking if you think for yourself - she calls you a piece of trash and wants to destroy you because you want to do your own stuff. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by daisy jane

[Tenzen12]

She literally invaded aliance and Kingdom AFTER destroying church and capturing it's supreme leader. Edelgard is strong nationalist and never aknowledged Kingdom and Aliance as legitmate nations. She is pure breed conqueror.

Also feudalism served it's purpose until we came with better system. Just because it's inferior to democracy doesn't mean it's terrible system. It's certainly more stable then for example communism.

 

34 minutes ago, Tarul said:

Oh, I definitely agree. When your objective is to open the lands and let cultures communicate, you have to be willing to listen, discuss and hear the otherside. Between his virtues and Claude's general dislike of war (his reactions to the deaths and sacrifices of his friends), it's very likely that Claude would prefer to whip out his silver tongue over the bottle of poison.

But the bottle of poison is there!

I think we, as a community, don't give Rhea enough flack for creating the entire situation. I mean, she invented an organized religion devoted to herself and her mom, and then regularly ordained the establishment/operation of all nation-states within Fodlan. All racism and general hatred of counter-thought can be associated with her policies. Furthermore, it's shown that she's more concerned with how the nations follow the Church's doctrines than their treatment of civilians. She has no problem with the Empire taxing its subjects to death, but has a problem when minor lords start displaying hostility towards the Church (which she reacts to with HELLA FORCE)

That's lot of pretty strong assumptions here. As far as we could see Rhea doesn't really care how much people follow doctrine, as long as they doesn't start killing other people. And ChoS protect civilians on regular basis, what they do NOT, is strong arming soverign nations to do their bidding because for one, Church simply doesn't have enough influence to do so. Church can't interfere with inner policies of other countries (which is also reason why there is no point destroying it for sake of potential reforms).

To be honest I am  also getting somohow tired of always making equation between open rebelion/terrorism and voicing discontent. No matter how you slice it, raising army and marching to kill pope (or anyone on that matter is legit reason for authorities defend  owneself and everyone else who would get caught in it.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Tenzen12

[timon]

3 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

how is she not fascist? 
"do what i want, or i'll end you."
"i know this is the best way for you and if you don't agree, I'll end you."
That's pretty clear cut to me - however  in honour of fairness, i can easily amend that to more of Edel is a Caesar-ish character if that's more comfortable.

Do you have any examples of that? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely asking, because all I remember is "don't stand in my way, or I'll end you", that's the key difference. She doesn't go out of her way to obliterate others, she strictly limits the damage to the people actively interfering with her, and actually does all she can to avoid stepping over bystanders (she let's people flee from Garreg Mach before initiating the assault, she limits the damage in the alliance by striking the head, she waits out her attack on Fhirdiad to see if citiziens will be evacuated).

 

Note that I'm talking about CF Edelgard btw, I think lords are better analised thinking through their own route. Their personality is inevitably completely different depending on the route you take, and only in their own there's enough interaction with them to justify an analysis. Just like with Dimitri, if we're talking about his character arc it doesn't really make sense to consider events outside Azure Moon, if not for added anecdotes.

[Flere210]

Feudalism is not even worse than Democracy. Democracy like we intend it in 2019 is not feasible in a world were the resources are more scarce. People can be free to do whatever they want unless you have the technolgy to provide the vast majority of them whit food, shelter, healtcare, protection and education, wich is something that was impossible to achieve in the middle age. 

Feudalism was not necessarily the best thing they could do whit middle age tech, but it worked well enought to sustain and devolop humanity untill it changed to a system more suitable for it's age.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Flere210

[daisy jane]

1 minute ago, timon said:

Do you have any examples of that? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely asking, because all I remember is "don't stand in my way, or I'll end you", that's the key difference. She doesn't go out of her way to obliterate others, she strictly limits the damage to the people actively interfering with her, and actually does all she can to avoid stepping over bystanders (she let's people flee from Garreg Mach before initiating the assault, she limits the damage in the alliance by striking the head, she waits out her attack on Fhirdiad to see if citiziens will be evacuated).

 

Note that I'm talking about CF Edelgard btw, I think lords are better analised thinking through their own route. Their personality is inevitably completely different depending on the route you take, and only in their own there's enough interaction with them to justify an analysis. Just like with Dimitri, if we're talking about his character arc it doesn't really make sense to consider events outside Azure Moon, if not for added anecdotes.

 

that's fair too. (sorry - like i said in my big novel of a post) - in a way it's hard for me to split everyone up because (well haha right now they are one big twisted plait). in a sense it makes sense because AzureMoon Dimitri is not Crimson Flower Dimitri though some of the traits are there). honestly, i feel CF kinda softened her up a bit (something I didn't like). i have no problems with Edel being Evil (in my POV), and I don't mind trying to make her complex. (it makes for the best villains) but I feel for me it would have made more sense for me (and maybe more cherry on the sunade) had they not had her try to walk the line in CF. just own it. 😉 

 

[Hardric62]

59 minutes ago, Tarul said:

She's basically Mussolini.

 

Euh, she is a medieval ruler, she should be judged with that standard in mind. And that standard excludes fachism on the grounds of anachronism.

 

40 minutes ago, Tarul said:

 

I think we, as a community, don't give Rhea enough flack for creating the entire situation. I mean, she invented an organized religion devoted to herself and her mom, and then regularly ordained the establishment/operation of all nation-states within Fodlan. All racism and general hatred of counter-thought can be associated with her policies. Furthermore, it's shown that she's more concerned with how the nations follow the Church's doctrines than their treatment of civilians. She has no problem with the Empire taxing its subjects to death, but has a problem when minor lords start displaying hostility towards the Church (which she reacts to with HELLA FORCE) 

 

That sort of things is why I want to go Crimson Flower as first path, and actually think Verdant WInd and Silver Snow are my favored paths since besides settling all loose ends with the Church and Agarthans, they end with Rhea/Seiros eating crow one way or another, because she did claim rulership for Fodlan for one thousand years (indirectly by using 'moral authority of the Church', but she is the supremem authority on the continent noentheless, has an army to exert her decisions, an academy to shape the continent's elite... When you have means like that, you are ruling, and are henceforth accuntable for how good/bad your rule is), and the current mess is her end result.

[Tenzen12]

That's nonsense. Moral authority doesn't equal political power, even if it might go hand to hand. Rhea and Church simply doesn't excercise enough of power to considered rulers. It doesn't interfere with inner policies of any nation nor it operate without their consent.  They provide support when requested and they get certain privileges in return. Ultimatelly it's give and take and always were.

Having means to rule isn't same as actually rulling. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Tenzen12

[Hardric62]

I suggest you take a close look to medieval story in Europe, especially things like the relation between the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church, and keep in mind that all that influence was used without having actual armies to enforce their will (Crusader orders were too busy inn the area where they were located to be used as a military arm in Europe). Also, when you are the authority negociating accords between 'holy' kingdoms and the one giving the approbation to any future emperor (archbishop got to be the witness for new crownings, remember?), I have difficulty to see how it is not power and rulership, even a more 'hands off' version regarding the everyday gestion. And sorry, but when you don't have these sort of tools around you by chance, they are parts of a plan, and generally, when you cumulate tools of ruling, it is to use them to rule.

[Tenzen12]

Holy Roman Empire and Catholic church is good example. But as powerful pope were he didn't rule HRE. Even if he had actually more power then Church of Seiros in FE3H.

[TrueNoble]

Edelgard made the most powerful play she possibly could, as someone in her particular position. She mentions at one point in Beagles pre-timeskip that she believes sacrifices made for the greater good are necessary, and extends this belief to all the people in Fodlan that would fight and die during her crusade. However, it's not something she takes lightly, and I would argue she didn't have much of a choice in the matter. If she hadn't seized power in such an extreme fashion, she likely would have just been disposed of by TWSITD outright, for not living up to their expectations. And, if she hadn't endeavored to make such sweeping changes to the system of nobility, she likely would have been taken advantage of by the same delinquent nobles who took advantage of her seriously ill father, once TWSITD ran out of uses for her. She speaks a lot about what's good for all the people of Fodlan, or paying for the sacrifices within her family and other innocent lives made by TWSITD in their experiments on her and, to be clear, I do think these are all real motives she has governing her actions, but what it really all comes down to is she was basically trapped from day one.

She had to go big in order to break free of their control not only over her, but Fodlan as a whole, or die trying. 

[Hardric62]

9 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

Even if he had actually more power then Church of Seiros in FE3H. 

 

Euh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwSts2s4ba4

What JJJ said.

[Landmaster]

So I've now finished Crimson Flower and my goal here was to find some aspect of Edelgard redeemable by seeing her perspective~ 

Sadly Crimson Flower only managed to make her character look worse to me. The whole route felt more like "playing as the dictator route" than "playing as the other side's perspective". I can't get behind her having good intentions because the game makes it as if she's just invading the Alliance and Kingdom for the hell of it when her true enemy is the church. 

She shows little to no remorse for the people she's killing who have absolutely nothing to do with her hatred of the church and are only defending their own territories from invasion. On top of that she barely shows any remorse for the people that die for her cause, namely Ladislava and Randolf.

Even worse is the fact as much as she and Hubert try to say she hates working with TWSITD, they spend most of their time sitting there being passive aggressive with Arundel and allowing them to do whatever they please. The game ends before they even fully confront them, almost as if they're, in fact, not as much of a concern to her as she claims. I also can't say her directly lying to the Black Eagles about the Pillars of Light just to make them more antagonistic of the church is a good look.

Finally, Rhea only becomes this raging psychopath due to being betrayed by Byelth. While she still did pretty horrible things during that time, the fact that she's largely sane in every other route makes me find it hard to see Rhea anywhere near as bad as Edelgard, who is doing this in a perfectly normal state of mind every time. 

I can't honestly see Byleth ever siding with Edelgard~ Edelgard never so much as apologizes to Byleth for the death their father by the people who she's working with. A large part of playing CF felt like she's honestly just using BE and Byleth to get the job done for her.

[Tenzen12]

To be fair she did kill Cornellia. That was quite aggressively aggressive.

[Ivan Tridelan]

23 hours ago, daisy jane said:

 

that's fair too. (sorry - like i said in my big novel of a post) - in a way it's hard for me to split everyone up because (well haha right now they are one big twisted plait). in a sense it makes sense because AzureMoon Dimitri is not Crimson Flower Dimitri though some of the traits are there). honestly, i feel CF kinda softened her up a bit (something I didn't like). i have no problems with Edel being Evil (in my POV), and I don't mind trying to make her complex. (it makes for the best villains) but I feel for me it would have made more sense for me (and maybe more cherry on the sunade) had they not had her try to walk the line in CF. just own it. 😉 

 

This is mainly because Byleth acts as a stabilizing influence for each leader. Outside of their own route, only Claude actually holds it together.

Edelgard makes it clear in every route that she has serious respect for Byleth and something more ("You were the one person I didn't want to make an enemy of") but only in CF does she have you on her side. The game is pretty clear that Byleth is a balance-breaker, but in non-CF routes she doesn't have that so she has to rely more on TWSITD, which means more moral compromises and less control of the situation (since she has an antagonistic partnership with them, she has limited influence over them).

@Landmaster: She is the type who can't let herself show weakness in front of others (except Byleth) and sympathizing with the enemy would encourage such feelings in her own ranks, undermining her efforts. Randolph and Ladislava were kind of minor characters to begin with and she's already said that the only way for her to honor those who sacrifice themselves for her is to keep moving forward so those deaths are not in vain. The only characters close enough to her to actually impact her enough to break her composure are Byleth and Hubert. Lying to the BE about the Pillars of Light is kind of necessary actually. They're on the verge of defeating the church and trumping it up as their final desperate ploy makes more sense than admitting that their own allies sabotaged the Imperial army because they were salty about their operative getting killed, which would have the BE want to go fight TWSITD (who are a shadow organization and not someone you fight straight on unless you know where their base is) but that would give Kingdom and Church time to recover on top of being something TWSITD would be able to see coming and prepare for. Being passive-aggressive with Arundel is the most they can do without sabotaging the war effort since that would split the Imperial army into Arundel supporters vs. Edelgard supporters. Though most people here agree that they should have had Edelgard's war against TWSITD come after the Church's defeat (or they could pull a surprise attack like they did with Arianrhod and smash the TWSITD base first, since the end battle with the Church is pretty epic)

[LukeKardoso]

I wonder if after the Crimson Flower route, how are they going to fight TWSID without Byleth's power of the progenitor god and  without the  use of the full power of Sword of the Creator(or maybe even be unable to use at all). It is funny how Edelgard wanted to get rid of the goddess and her minions, but those are the ones who gave the power to Byleth. Still she used Byleth to her heart content until she got rid of the church.

 

The real question: is Byleth still useful to Edelgard after this? Maybe if you S support her, then it makes sense, but through all the story of the game she only wanted Byleth for his special abilities that would help her achieve her goals. However, she still needs to beat TWSID, and Byleth is not the same after the Crimson Flower route. How are we going to face them? Hopefully some DLC in the future shows a little bit of info regarding that

Edited August 26, 2019 by LukeKardoso

[Hardric62]

39 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

So I've now finished Crimson Flower and my goal here was to find some aspect of Edelgard redeemable by seeing her perspective~ 

Sadly Crimson Flower only managed to make her character look worse to me. The whole route felt more like "playing as the dictator route" than "playing as the other side's perspective". I can't get behind her having good intentions because the game makes it as if she's just invading the Alliance and Kingdom for the hell of it when her true enemy is the church.  

She shows little to no remorse for the people she's killing who have absolutely nothing to do with her hatred of the church and are only defending their own territories from invasion. On top of that she barely shows any remorse for the people that die for her cause, namely Ladislava and Randolf.

Even worse is the fact as much as she and Hubert try to say she hates working with TWSITD, they spend most of their time sitting there being passive aggressive with Arundel and allowing them to do whatever they please. The game ends before they even fully confront them, almost as if they're, in fact, not as much of a concern to her as she claims. I also can't say her directly lying to the Black Eagles about the Pillars of Light just to make them more antagonistic of the church is a good look.

Finally, Rhea only becomes this raging psychopath due to being betrayed by Byelth. While she still did pretty horrible things during that time, the fact that she's largely sane in every other route makes me find it hard to see Rhea anywhere near as bad as Edelgard, who is doing this in a perfectly normal state of mind every time. 

I can't honestly see Byleth ever siding with Edelgard~ Edelgard never so much as apologizes to Byleth for the death their father by the people who she's working with. A large part of playing CF felt like she's honestly just using BE and Byleth to get the job done for her.

 

Euh, Faerghus is openly allying and giving refuge to the Church, that doesn't look like 'the hell of it' to me. And the Alliance... Hard to stomach for me because negociations with Claude should have been done, but strategically, you don't let threats like an entire country which plays the ambiguity card as hard as possible on your flank during a war.

 

Edelgard's character doesn't strike me as one prone to overt displays of emotion in public. Was she supposed to cry in public and wallowing like mad?

 

For the Aghartans, welcome to reality, where wars sometimes force you to fight with people you hate and who butchered your family but have no choice to do otherwise because they are the ones you got, especially when they ostensibly wear the face of a major leader of your country, and likely control forces strong enough to wreck havoc amongst your lines if you decide to squash them first. Leading to the passive-aggressivness while everyone try to set up their pieces for getting the other down for good the second Rhea is down. Try to do better with her situation, not just the means, but the psychological issues leading to her situation. And the lying... Not a big fan, but again, War Propaganda 101, everybody does that during wartime.

 

Ironically, Edelgard and Rhea are quite similar on that point. Rhea is just as serene as she demonstrates her own ruthlessness during White Clouds, when she orders execution without blinking and without but the shortest trial ever. Assassins I know, but Shamir and Rhea's words there imply there is a judiciary system for that shit. And students' reaction also seems to show that such ruthlessness isn't ingrained in Fodlan's culture (old times executions were in part as gruesome as they were because it was supposed to be a spectacle for the crowd). If anything, her control is badder than Edelgard once faced with actual challenges to her authority (pretty sure I was getting a glimpse of Seiros when I fat-fingered into refusing to handing over the Lance of Ruin after Chapter 5, and that wasn't a nice view for such a relatively small issue). And I can't really bring myself to trust a ruler with a temper so flimsy, especially when they are a semi-immortal dragon with all that power available when she snaps. Rhea looks to me as only sane as long as anybody meaning anything to her crawl to her feet. Edelgard and Rhea share flaws indeed, but for me, Rhea got it way badder than Edelgard (Was Enbarr burning in any route?). Short of the crow-eating she ends up getting through in Silver Snow and Verdant Wind, I just can't trust her (and really wonder if a rechute is to fear in the Azure Moon route once Byleth is gone, especially when in this one, Aghartans as a group survive just fine despite the horrible losses, keeping Shamballa, javelins of light, Titanus and the likes).

 

 

[Landmaster]

19 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

@Landmaster: She is the type who can't let herself show weakness in front of others (except Byleth) and sympathizing with the enemy would encourage such feelings in her own ranks, undermining her efforts. Randolph and Ladislava were kind of minor characters to begin with and she's already said that the only way for her to honor those who sacrifice themselves for her is to keep moving forward so those deaths are not in vain. The only characters close enough to her to actually impact her enough to break her composure are Byleth and Hubert. Lying to the BE about the Pillars of Light is kind of necessary actually. They're on the verge of defeating the church and trumping it up as their final desperate ploy makes more sense than admitting that their own allies sabotaged the Imperial army because they were salty about their operative getting killed, which would have the BE want to go fight TWSITD (who are a shadow organization and not someone you fight straight on unless you know where their base is) but that would give Kingdom and Church time to recover on top of being something TWSITD would be able to see coming and prepare for. Being passive-aggressive with Arundel is the most they can do without sabotaging the war effort since that would split the Imperial army into Arundel supporters vs. Edelgard supporters. Though most people here agree that they should have had Edelgard's war against TWSITD come after the Church's defeat (or they could pull a surprise attack like they did with Arianrhod and smash the TWSITD base first, since the end battle with the Church is pretty epic)

I don't think that's the case. Everyone on her side gives the impression that they are no more than a mindless drone obeying her without question. She didn't need to make the Church seem any more evil than she already had. No one doubted her words. She didn't have to say the pillars were done by TWSITD since no one besides Byleth and Hubert even know they're working with them in the first place.

As for Ladislava and Rudolph, something a little more than just "good job, bro" for someone dying right in front of you would have sufficed for me. No one's asking her to break down and bawl over them. But for as devoted as they were to her, I was expecting less cold of a response to their deaths. Whether they're minor or not, they're major to her.

1 minute ago, Hardric62 said:

 

Euh, Faerghus is openly allying and giving refuge to the Church, that doesn't look like 'the hell of it' to me. And the Alliance... Hard to stomach for me because negociations with Claude should have been done, but strategically, you don't let threats like an entire country which plays the ambiguity card as hard as possible on your flank during a war.

 

Edelgard's character doesn't strike me as one prone to overt displays of emotion in public. Was she supposed to cry in public and wallowing like mad?

 

For the Aghartans, welcome to reality, where wars sometimes force you to fight with people you hate and who butchered your family but have no choice to do otherwise because they are the ones you got, especially when they ostensibly wear the face of a major leader of your country, and likely control forces strong enough to wreck havoc amongst your lines if you decide to squash them first. Leading to the passive-aggressivness while everyone try to set up their pieces for getting the other down for good the second Rhea is down. Try to do better with her situation, not just the means, but the psychological issues leading to her situation. And the lying... Not a big fan, but again, War Propaganda 101, everybody does that during wartime.

 

Ironically, Edelgard and Rhea are quite similar on that point. Rhea is just as serene as she demonstrates her own ruthlessness during White Clouds, when she orders execution without blinking and without but the shortest trial ever. Assassins I know, but Shamir and Rhea's words there imply there is a judiciary system for that shit. And students' reaction also seems to show that such ruthlessness isn't ingrained in Fodlan's culture (old times executions were in part as gruesome as they were because it was supposed to be a spectacle for the crowd). If anything, her control is badder than Edelgard once faced with actual challenges to her authority (pretty sure I was getting a glimpse of Seiros when I fat-fingered into refusing to handing over the Lance of Ruin after Chapter 5, and that wasn't a nice view for such a relatively small issue). And I can't really bring myself to trust a ruler with a temper so flimsy, especially when they are a semi-immortal dragon with all that power available when she snaps. Rhea looks to me as only sane as long as anybody meaning anything to her crawl to her feet. Edelgard and Rhea share flaws indeed, but for me, Rhea got it way badder than Edelgard (Was Enbarr burning in any route?). Short of the crow-eating she ends up getting through in Silver Snow and Verdant Wind, I just can't trust her (and really wonder if a rechute is to fear in the Azure Moon route once Byleth is gone, especially when in this one, Aghartans as a group survive just fine despite the horrible losses, keeping Shamballa, javelins of light, Titanus and the likes).

 

 

She says from the day she takes the throne that her intent is to invade the Kingdom and Alliance to be ruled under the Empire. That is before the Church takes refuge in Faerghus. And as I just said, no one is asking her to drop on the floor and start bawling. Some sort of reaction to people who just died for you more than two sentences would have been enough for me.

As I also said, I'm not saying the lying in general was what bothered me. Obviously that happens during war. It was the fact that she didn't need to do it, it makes her look bad to me as the player. And there was never any question of why she was working with TWSITD in any Route, my point here was that her Route did nothing to make it look more favorable to me.

Rhea and Edelgard are very much similar and I think that's the point. It's simply for me, Rhea's at her worst purely when Byleth betrays her because Byleth possesses the remains of her mother. She does questionable things in general, yes, but her worst behavior is when she's driven mad by Byleth siding against her. Edelgard makes poor decision regardless of Route and unquestionably starts the war regardless of anything else. I'm not here to argue who is worse between Rhea and Edelgard, though, I'm only saying CF's route did nothing to make me think all that much better of her.

[Ivan Tridelan]

46 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

I don't think that's the case. Everyone on her side gives the impression that they are no more than a mindless drone obeying her without question. She didn't need to make the Church seem any more evil than she already had. No one doubted her words. She didn't have to say the pillars were done by TWSITD since no one besides Byleth and Hubert even know they're working with them in the first place.

As for Ladislava and Rudolph, something a little more than just "good job, bro" for someone dying right in front of you would have sufficed for me. No one's asking her to break down and bawl over them. But for as devoted as they were to her, I was expecting less cold of a response to their deaths. Whether they're minor or not, they're major to her.

She says from the day she takes the throne that her intent is to invade the Kingdom and Alliance to be ruled under the Empire. That is before the Church takes refuge in Faerghus. And as I just said, no one is asking her to drop on the floor and start bawling. Some sort of reaction to people who just died for you more than two sentences would have been enough for me.

As I also said, I'm not saying the lying in general was what bothered me. Obviously that happens during war. It was the fact that she didn't need to do it, it makes her look bad to me as the player. And there was never any question of why she was working with TWSITD in any Route, my point here was that her Route did nothing to make it look more favorable to me.

Rhea and Edelgard are very much similar and I think that's the point. It's simply for me, Rhea's at her worst purely when Byleth betrays her because Byleth possesses the remains of her mother. She does questionable things in general, yes, but her worst behavior is when she's driven mad by Byleth siding against her. Edelgard makes poor decision regardless of Route and unquestionably starts the war regardless of anything else. I'm not here to argue who is worse between Rhea and Edelgard, though, I'm only saying CF's route did nothing to make me think all that much better of her.

1) To be fair, everyone just watched Rhea have a breakdown and turn into a literal rage dragon (talking about right after the split). And she needed to issue SOME kind of statement on how light just rained out of nowhere to wreck a city, so might as well blame it on your (public) enemy.

2) It wasn't "right in front of you" they were on a different front of the fighting, and I get the impression it's partly her personality but more because the game wants to keep moving (I and many others got the impression CF was at least partly rushed)

3) Taking over the Kingdom and Alliance won her lots of points in the Empire, where those two nations are seen as merely dissident rebels who should be under the Empire. And again, she's not one to dwell on things, and not one for public displays of emotion. "We must appreciate and honor their sacrifice" is about as much as you should expect from her personality, especially with the story more interested in moving on.

4) Uh? TWSITD basically engineered her in the first place, mitigated her father's influence, killed the previous King of Farghus, and have been keeping tabs on her all along. It's made clear they have the edge over her in influence and firepower and she's basically their puppet trying to cut loose without getting killed. Arianrhod's fate and Hubert's paralogue both make it clear TWSITD have an absurd edge in technology and magical power and the fact Arundel is clearly one of them (and he's basically running a good chunk of the Empire) means she can't NOT work with them.

5) Edelgard's bad decision making is actually a whole lot more rational if you consider the idea that TWSITD have a hefty amount of control over her. She needs the Empire on HER side (since most people don't know about TWSITD, her winning the war puts the people on her side), and TWSITD were aiming her at the Church in particular since they are long-time enemies of the church. She SHOULD have talked to others, in particular Claude would have listened and Dmitri almost certainly if she revealed TWSITD were behind the Tragedy of Duscur, but this is more her paranoia/distrustful nature, and the fact nobody caught on the Monica being Kronya and Tomas being Solon and Jeritza being the DK certainly didn't help that considering you never know who might be a TWSITD spy. Her main issue is that she doesn't feel she can trust anyone besides Hubert (and possibly Byleth) and that pretty much limits her options to working with her puppet masters.

[Hardric62]

2 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

 

3) Taking over the Kingdom and Alliance won her lots of points in the Empire, where those two nations are seen as merely dissident rebels who should be under the Empire. And again, she's not one to dwell on things, and not one for public displays of emotion. "We must appreciate and honor their sacrifice" is about as much as you should expect from her personality, especially with the story more interested in moving on.

 

Part of the invasion is also for me that... War with the Church is unavoidable, just like the one with Fodlan's nobility because of her anti-Crest view. From my knowledge in history, I can bet that the high nobility has been presenting the Crests as their 'divine right to rule' for a while, given how they are 'gifts of the Goddess', and can point at their glorious ancestors the Saints and the Ten Elites (something which has been common for rulers in middle ages and before), and Rhea let the things go like that because that meant her siblings' 'legacy' survived and endured... Except one millenia later, they have become Fodlan's society's main pillar, and it leads to the very toxic view of keeping Crests going at all costs because they are that sign of divine favor, and they need that. And the corollary of 1000 years of 'divine mandate', entitlement and the feeling you can do as you please, because the goddess is on your side, just as your Cest proves it. A mess Rhea never bothered to try to correct.

 

Cue Edelgard, bringing a literal axe to that situation. By attacking the Crests, she destroys the nobility's major claim to rulership, so odds are, as a class, it will fight for survival, even if she kept to the Empire only, because the example of her policies could inspire the population in other countries to do likewise, I mean, if the Empire thrives without Crest, maybe tolerating the fucktard killing off caravans with the nerve of going on his rival's lands isn't necessary anymore? And the Church has been associated to that situation for a millenium now, meaning the nobility's failure here becomes very much the Church's failure, and this sort of situation is when old faiths get toppled for new ones. It would take exceptional reforms and literally divine diplomacy gifts to negociate the changes needed for it to dissociate from such abuses in the population's mind. And Rhea... routinely show how ruthless she is in dealing with enemies. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that she will go for war, likely leveraging the Church's moral authority to launch the nobility against the apostate, and since the apostate is destroying their system, they will be happy to oblige.

 

tl;dr, She has to know her decisions will lead to nobility to band as a class against her to preserve 'their' system, just like the Church will, and that the sheer influence of the latter makes it very likely that, for instance, the 'Holy' Kingdom of Faerghus will go to war as a whole to defend the Church to which it owes so much. Conclusion, since war looks unavoidable, she might just as well be the one striking the first blow rather than let her enemies make the first move.