What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*

[Eltoshen]

I'm talking about pre-Dedue Dimitri by the way. He becomes way more likeable (on his own route) when Dedue comes back.

I feel like so many people just overlook what he did to Randolph and his sister as a consequence of his actions.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Eltoshen

[CyberNinja]

5 minutes ago, Eltoshen said:

I'm talking about pre-Dedue Dimitri by the way. He becomes way more likeable (on his own route) when Dedue comes back.

I feel like so many people just overlook what he did to Randolph and his sister as a consequence of his actions.

Well its mostly dialogue so idk maybe people don't pick up on the fact that he's slowly killing Randolph companions, follower, and friends one by one while psychologically torturing him by equating his actions as equal to Randolph's own. 

Inicdentally, how the hell is Azure Moon's plot twist supposed to work when Casper is in the army?

[Troykv]

Okay; I'm going to ask the question; I like her; but I'm also a masochist, but this seems like fun

 

Do you think the game would be better or worse if reaching Edelgard's hand wasn't possible?

Edited September 3, 2019 by Troykv

[Armagon]

7 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

Inicdentally, how the hell is Azure Moon's plot twist supposed to work when Casper is in the army?

Caspar barely acknlowedges the existence of Randolph and Fleche. In other words, nothing changes.

____________________________________________________
 

Anyway, now that i've done all three routes (Silver Snow is an urban legend, it doesn't exist), i gotta say, Edelgard is still my favorite Lord in the game though tied with Dimitri. But like, here's my thing. People who played Blue Lions first were going on and on about how she's a tyrant and all and yet, when i played Blue Lions, i was like ".....where's this monstrous tyrant everyone made Edelgard out to be". Like it's clear Dimitri hates her and all but like, i never got the impression that Edelgard was a tyrant. The worst thing she did was transform into a literal monster, which doesn't really make sense tbh. Imma say it, Crimson Flower had the best final battle and ending because when it came to final battles, it's the only one that made sense. I'm also gonna say this, while both Edelgard and Dimitri are morally grey characters, Dimitri leans closer to "evil" than Edelgard does. Yeah, he gets his redemption and all (even if it happened a bit too fast) but pre-timeskip, we learn that Dimitri actively enjoys killing (and then we see it when he snaps at the Holy Tomb) and then before Rodrigue gets killed, Dimitri doesn't give a shit about anyone that isn't Dedue. Edelgard may have started the war but in the end, she's less "evil" than Dimitri was.

I also wanna point out that in Crimson Flower, the war canonically ends faster than it does in any of the other routes. Less blood is spilled on that route than in any other, due to Edelgard seeking out the quickest way of ending the war. 

So tl;dr, now that i've played all the routes, do i still like Edelgard? Absolutely yes.

[Eltoshen]

9 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Okay; I'm going to ask the question; I like her; but I'm also a masochist, but this seems like fun

 

Do you think the game would be better or worse if reaching Edelgard's hand wasn't possible?

You mean the option of siding with Edelgard? I think it's highly beneficial to the game's thesis that it is an option. For me, the game's overall purpose is to highlight that no matter who you side with in the war, there is a desolate period before reaching the conclusion. This is really well highlighted by the soundtrack as well, including the iconic ending soundtrack centred around Edelgarde.

[Troykv]

7 minutes ago, Eltoshen said:

You mean the option of siding with Edelgard? I think it's highly beneficial to the game's thesis that it is an option. For me, the game's overall purpose is to highlight that no matter who you side with in the war, there is a desolate period before reaching the conclusion. This is really well highlighted by the soundtrack as well, including the iconic ending soundtrack centred around Edelgarde.

Yeah, I just said it in a very fancy way for the sake of doing a pun.

[bones]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

 Like it's clear Dimitri hates her and all but like, i never got the impression that Edelgard was a tyrant. The worst thing she did was transform into a literal monster, which doesn't really make sense tbh. [...]

I also wanna point out that in Crimson Flower, the war canonically ends faster than it does in any of the other routes. Less blood is spilled on that route than in any other, due to Edelgard seeking out the quickest way of ending the war. 

The worst thing Edelgard does is start a five-year-war that leaves two countries in ruins. She gets no credit for canonically ending a five-year-long war “more quickly” when she started it. After declaring said war, she immediately assassinates or otherwise removes her political opponents and consolidates power into herself, a dictator, and invades two other countries. I think from some perspectives she can certainly be seen as a tyrant.

When comparing Dimitri to Edelgard, Edelgard already starts with a massive body count because she started the war. I don’t agree the war was inevitable, or that it was Edelgard’s only or best choice, so IMO it’s not even useful to compare the suffering they’ve each caused as they’re on totally different scales.

The idea that Edelgard expresses empathy for victims while Dimitri does not is just not true and ignores his entire arc. Even before that, in his very first post-timeskip battle, he is taking out the bandits because he is infuriated that they are preying on innocents: “Someone must end this cycle of the strong preying on the weak.” The bandits had nothing to do with the imperial soldiers or Edelgard. Then after his arc, his whole deal is atoning for what he has done and accepting that some can never forgive him for the atrocities he’s committed. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by bones

[Troykv]

6 minutes ago, bones said:

The worst thing Edelgard does is start a five-year-war that leaves two countries in ruins. She gets no credit for canonically ending a five-year-long war “more quickly” when she started it. After declaring said war, she immediately assassinates or otherwise removes her political opponents and consolidates power into herself, a dictator, and invades two other countries. I think from some perspectives she can certainly be seen as a tyrant.

When comparing Dimitri to Edelgard, Edelgard already starts with a massive body count because she started the war. I don’t agree the war was inevitable, or that it was Edelgard’s only or best choice, so IMO it’s not even useful to compare the suffering they’ve each caused as they’re on totally different scales.

The idea that Edelgard expresses empathy for victims while Dimitri does not is just not true and ignores his entire arc. Even before that, in his very first post-timeskip battle, he is taking out the bandits because he is infuriated that they are preying on innocents: “Someone must end this cycle of the strong preying on the weak.” The bandits had nothing to do with the imperial soldiers or Edelgard. Then after his arc, his whole deal is atoning for what he has done and accepting that some can never forgive him for the atrocities he’s committed. 

I think he's talking about in the context of "Blue Lions Specific things".

Because the War obviously happens in every single route, and it's overall the single most dubious thing she had done. But I can't hate her for doing so because... considering her circunstances... the war was unavoidable the moment the Insurrection happened... it was either her trying to reform Fodlan, or Thales trying to destroy it.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Troykv

[Eryon]

Edelgard is well in line with the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Jefferson, etc. in that they believe they need to destroy the world and/or exterminate the untermensch in order to save the ubermensch (in this case, Edy and her lackeys) from the chains of tradition and permit them to operate on sheer will-to-power.

[CyberNinja]

1 minute ago, Eryon said:

Edelgard is well in line with the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Jefferson, etc. in that they believe they need to destroy the world and/or exterminate the untermensch in order to save the ubermensch (in this case, Edy and her lackeys) from the chains of tradition and permit them to operate on sheer will-to-power.

As the "resident totalitarian" shouldn't that be right up your alley?

[Eryon]

That's more of a joke. I do maintain that a well-working society by design is always totalitarian insofar government by design is always totalitarian.

 

 

[Vince777]

Edelgard gave away her position right after accomplishing her goal, quite unlike Staline and she doesn't seek to eliminate people based on ethnicity, like Hitler hoped to do.

Napoleon would seem like a better comparison to me. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Vince777

[Eryon]

15 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Edelgard gave away her position right after accomplishing her goal

Enough non-solo endings have her rule well past the game's events.

she doesn't seek to eliminate people based on ethnicity, like Hitler hoped to do.
She yaps about monsters-in-human-skin and about reptilians (an antisemitic codeword) "controlling" humanity. You don't associate it with the racial/ethnic violence committed under the Nazi regime or in America under Deist Founding Fathers since you see humans as the "good guys" who are always entitled to wage war on non-humans (especially with how Rhea is more or less a Holocaust survivor).

Edited September 3, 2019 by Eryon

[Vince777]

Look at you and your two cents assumptions. 

I had actually forgotten about Rhea's nature. Regardless, there is a great total of three of those characters and her motivation for their removal isn't their racial nature in particular. Edelgard would not have acted any differently had Rhea just been human. 

No, I would not automaticly assume humans to be the "good guys". I would seek rebellion against a class system that's passed on through blood, however. 

 

[Armagon]

17 minutes ago, bones said:

The worst thing Edelgard does is start a five-year-war that leaves two countries in ruins.

Like Trokyv said, it was in the context of Blue Lions.

 In the context of Crimson Flower, both the Kingdom and the Alliance are......pretty stable, actually. Hell, Dimitri was able to take the throne without issue in that route, as evidenced by the fact that he never lost his eye. Not only that but even after the Alliance falls, the only thing it lost was it's territory. As Claude says himself, outside of Deirdru, the Alliance is unscathed. The Kingdom suffers more damage because Arianrhod gets nuked as a consequence of Edelgard making a move against Slytherin too early.......and then Dimitri dies.......and then Rhea sets Fhirdiad on fire.

17 minutes ago, bones said:

After declaring said war, she immediately assassinates or otherwise removes her political opponents and consolidates power into herself, a dictator,

I mean 

1. Those political opponents were corrupt and one of them was even responsible for her being experimented on. 
2. In the context of Crimson Flower, she willingly steps down from the throne once all is said and done. Hard for me to call her a dictator because a real one would've held on to power as long as possible.

27 minutes ago, bones said:

The idea that Edelgard expresses empathy for victims while Dimitri does not is just not true and ignores his entire arc.

I never said Dimitri doesn't but Dimitri is more bloodthirsty than Edelgard ever was. Like he expresses regret at killing the militia during Lonato's rebellion......but then we learn from Felix in his C-Support with Dimitri that there was a rebellion in the Kingdom two years prior and as Dimitri was subjugating it, he was enjoying every second of it (that's also why Felix is the only one of the Blue Lions not surprised when Dimitri snaps in the Holy Tomb).

Post timeskip, when it's time to take out the bandits, one of the dialogue options from Byleth is "even thieves are just trying to survive" and Dimitri's basically like "well fuck them". Not to say the thieves were right because they're thieves but you get the point.....i hope. Flashforward a chapter where Dimitri captures Randolph and threatens to torture the fuck out of him, disregarding his claims that Randolph has a family back home (this in turn causes Fleche to seek out Dimitri in an attempt to kill him even though it was Byleth who killed Randolph as an act of mercy). It's not until after his redemption that Dimitri starts to show empathy again, willingly turning his campaign around and setting out to liberate Fhirdiad before he returns his focus on the Empire. At that point, Dimitri's actively seeking out to end the bloodshed. But before his redemption? He doesn't give a shit who he kills as long as it gets him closer to killing Edelgard. This is all in the context of Blue Lions.

Comparing Edelgard in Crimson Flower to Dimitri in Blue Lions, i'd still say Edelgard is the less "evil" of the two and again, that's in quotations because they're both morally ambiguous. And before you say Edelgard is more of a tyrant in other routes, Dimitri never redeems himself in other routes so like, the argument goes both ways.

[CyberNinja]

3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Hard for me to call her a dictator because a real one would've held on to power as long as possible.

Well that and unlike most Dictatorships, Edelgard gets to ride the legitimacy of over 1000 years of ruling Fodlan by her family line. you know, that and its pretty hard to have ground to stand on Edelgard ruling an absolute monarchy when the same thing happens in the GD route with Byleth at the Helm. That and presumably Silver Snow will end up with Byleth as effective god emperor (haven't finished, can't say) if there's no surviving claimants.

[Eryon]

38 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I had actually forgotten about Rhea's nature. Regardless, there is a great total of three of those characters and her motivation for their removal isn't their racial nature in particular. Edelgard would not have acted any differently had Rhea just been human.

You're telling us to ignore Edlegard's every time bringing up Rhea not being a human. I'll also throw in her words on Claude being a foreigner.

No, I would not automaticly assume humans to be the "good guys". I would seek rebellion against a class system that's passed on through blood, however. 

You need to demonstrate that humans past the small tribal level don't have an inner habit of making societies that have entrenched elites. And that fathers don't make systems that let them pass on what they want to their sons. Don't get me started on how nebulous a notion "merit" is.

You also need to demonstrate humans are better behaved absent of such blood rule. The behavior of elected or republican officials in Athens, Rome, Nazi Germany suggest otherwise.

Also,  I remind you all of the endings that hint nothing of Edelgard abdicating the throne:

https://pastebin.com/M2TqUPQ2

Edelgard x Lysithea

After the war, Edelgard and Lysithea threw themselves\ninto the fight against those who slither in the dark.\nThe struggle was long and arduous, but not without its\nbenefits. With careful analysis of ancient techniques,\nthey discovered ways to recover the years of life that had\nbeen stolen from them. Afterwards, the new Adrestian\nemperor and Lysithea, her trusted officer, devoted the\nrest of their lives to Fódlan's rule. For her counsel in\ninstituting class reforms and ensuring the independence of\nthe people, Lysithea came to be known as the Wisdom of\nthe Empire. The pair of talented women ushered Fódlan\ninto a new age of innovation and prosperity.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Eryon

[Icelerate]

32 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I never said Dimitri doesn't but Dimitri is more bloodthirsty than Edelgard ever was. Like he expresses regret at killing the militia during Lonato's rebellion......but then we learn from Felix in his C-Support with Dimitri that there was a rebellion in the Kingdom two years prior and as Dimitri was subjugating it, he was enjoying every second of it (that's also why Felix is the only one of the Blue Lions not surprised when Dimitri snaps in the Holy Tomb).

 

Then why does he feel so bad about subjugating a rebellion in part one when he enjoyed it 2 years prior? Is he schizophrenic? 

[Troykv]

1 minute ago, Icelerate said:

Then why does he feel so bad about subjugating a rebellion in part one when he enjoyed it 2 years prior? Is he schizophrenic? 

He's trying to hide the boar; and when he is done he feels guilt after killing so much.

At least that is how I understand it.

[Vince777]

30 minutes ago, Eryon said:

You're telling us to ignore Edlegard's every time bringing up Rhea not being a human.

It strikes me as a manner to highlight her deception. She lies to the people about her true nature and she lies about history. She does so to maintain the status quo. 

There is no doubt to me that Edelgard would still have wanted the end of the Church and the nobility regardless of whether Rhea is human or not. It is just not her focus.

So there are endings with Edelgard still leading Fodlan. I had not seen them. However, I doubt Edelgard/Lysithea should be considered the canon ending, were there to be one. They're not even from the same class. Multiple endings with bring about many flavour endings. When unpaired, she eventually abdicates. That seems more canon to me. 

Edit: Upon inspection, most Edelgard endings have her remain a ruler her entire life so I'll conceide on that. Lysithea's was a weird choice to show me. 




 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Vince777

[Eryon]

15 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

It strikes me as a manner to highlight her deception. She lies to the people about her true nature and she lies about history. She does so to maintain the status quo.

Tell us more on how calling a non-human a monster in human skin isn't labeling someone a beast to be destroyed. Considering how humans act towards other humans (see White America's treatment of the indigenous inhabitants of the continent) and just what happened with Nemesis, Rhea has solid enough grounds not to trust too many humans with knowledge of her heritage (alongside keeping silent info on the locations of other dragons). And her lies about history (wrongfully) favored humans rather than condemned them (despite genocide against her kind).

15 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

There is no doubt to me that Edelgard would still have wanted the end of the Church and the nobility regardless of whether Rhea is human or not. It is just not her focus.

Those Who Slither In The Dark oppose Rhea largely from their hatred of dragons (ala how Neo-Nazis contine to hate Jews). It's apparent enough that much of her attitude was nurtured by them.

So there are endings with Edelgard still leading Fodlan. I had not seen them. However, I doubt Edelgard/Lysithea should be considered the canon ending, were there to be one. They're not even from the same class. Multiple endings with bring about many flavour endings. When unpaired, she eventually abdicates. That seems more canon to me. 

Nothing says her even winning the war is canon to begin with. How Edelgard acts in paired endings points to her being fine with ruling herself for all the foreseeable future but her shortened lifespan makes her pursue finding a successor (unless the already mentioned curing happens).

Edited September 3, 2019 by Eryon

[Troykv]

The nature of the Edelgard's regime time it's unclear in most of the endings.

But she seems interested in getting someone that can replace her if she decides to end her regime, or dies for some reason; Edelgard it's mostly interested in doing progress.... if she can't do anything else for the Empire, she probably needs to be replaced.

Even in the case of the Edelgard/Lysithea Ending where she likely lived the longest, she knows she isn't immortal, and there is maybe someone in the Empire more deserving to be the Emperor when she became old.

In this particular ending I feel the presence of Lysithea may help her Edel to get more stuff done in her lifetime; after all, we're talking about Lysithea, the one person that would search the most for ways to improve the world because of her former condition.

[Vince777]

I'm unconvinced Edelgard would harbor similar hatred towards the dragonkin had they not been deceptive and ruling through their imposed and promoted caste system. She likely doesn't hate Rhea because she's a dragonkin but hate the dragonkin because they are Rhea. 

Regarless, it remains inconsequential in that it isn't actually her focus. She would have led the same rebellion had Rhea just been human and would have hated her just as much. You haven't addressed that. 
 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Vince777

[Strullemia]

7 hours ago, Vince777 said:

Fought a war for her ideals. Got very desperate and bitter at the end when she was losing and her dreams were being crushed. To me, she's beautifully and realistically written.

Perhaps people should hate Dimitri more instead. Dude went on this crazy murder spree and tortured people.

Camilla was second in CYL last year and that's after being beaten out of the top 2 in the two previous years. I understand what you mean but I expect Edegard to be first this year, by a large margin, on her first year of introduction. 

 

I mean I don’t disagree with what you’re saying? My point was that even if she’ll be popular on the surface, that popularity won’t prevent people from acting toxic when talking about her.

[Eryon]

23 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I'm unconvinced Edelgard would harbor similar hatred towards the dragonkin had they not been deceptive and ruling through their imposed and promoted caste system. She likely doesn't hate Rhea because she's a dragonkin but hate the dragonkin because they are Rhea.

Nobody pointed a gun at the heads of the men who passed on what they wanted to their sons (which is more or less the source of nobility) or ensured their heirs had what they wanted them to have. Your claim that the dragons were deceptive (in a continent where they had a genocide inflicted on them with no reparations or apologies) ignores the atrocities by Nemesis/TWSITD (which Edelgard never recognizes either).

Your narrative of the dragons forcing the noble humans (goddamn HFYers...) into using crests how they did ignores how scripture says nothing of the crest-users having such a position in society or being required to engage in such brutal experiments. Appreciate them yes (so that the remnants of her kind be honored without seeking retribution against the kind who wronged them), do what the crest-wielding humans like the imperial nobility or TWSITD did (who indeed played a major part in how the crests were used in Fodlan) no.

Rhea is not an overlord no matter how hard you want her to be so she can be the untermensch to be exterminated. Even if she was, Edelgard never says conquering and ruling others is wrong. No no, Rhea is ultimately just a coward who did the bare she needed to keep Fodlan remotely stable so she could focus on what she wanted (her mother, and perhaps her kind returned in time). Rhea would not be the king Fodlan deserved (the king who'd regulate human's inborn sinfulness), nor did she work to make a human one.

23 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Regarless, it remains inconsequential in that it isn't actually her focus. She would have led the same rebellion had Rhea just been human and would have hated her just as much. You haven't addressed that. 
 

You're ignoring TWSITD's impact now.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Eryon