What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*

[Vince777]

I don't know enough about the war Nemesis led to take a side. What exactly makes Nemesis so clearly the villain here? That isn't clear to me. Nor if the Agarthians deserved to be banished. They also suffered a genocide of sort, I believe, since their society was made to collapse and the remnants of them only remained in the shadows for so long. I may be completely off with the lore here. They used the bones of vanquished dragons during the war to fight but they also did because those held tremendous power.

Yeah, they're very shady and not exactly recommendable but it isn't clear they were this way before and this is the sort of thing that happens constantly to marginalized groups when they get desperate. Playing fair just doesn't make sense anymore. This is partially why I also liked Micaiah so much in her conflict with Ike and the Alliance. She was getting crushed, started getting desperate and shifted towards more shady measures, like using a rockslide. 



 


 

[Eryon]

14 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I don't know enough about the war Nemesis led to take a side. What exactly makes Nemesis so clearly the villain here?

Being the one who engaged in genocide. Just as how Hitler is condemned. Hitler believed the Jews needing to expelled or exterminated in order to save Germany. With modern Germans well ashamed of their history back then (complete with accommodations for Jews.)

14 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Nor if the Agarthians deserved to be banished. 

Are you denying the Agarthians built war machines and used ultraviolence?

14 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

They also suffered a genocide of sort, I believe, since their society was made to collapse and the remnants of them only remained in the shadows for so long.

Their society collapsed in war with others (namely Sothis) ala Rome during its fall. They did not surrender or apologize or dismantle their weapons. Not genocide since nothing says they were targeted for what they were systemically rather in the wages of war (which they were engaging in on a high level).

14 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

They used the bones of vanquished dragons during the war to fight but they also did because those held tremendous power.

You're an apologist for genocide now.

14 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

eah, they're very shady and not exactly recommendable but it isn't clear they were this way before and this is the sort of thing that happens constantly to marginalized groups when they get desperate.

They were not being targeted for what they are and had plenty of time to stop waging war while giving an apology. There is no society on Fodlan where humans suffer from racism at the hands of dragons rather than other humans either.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Eryon

[Landmaster]

10 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I don't know enough about the war Nemesis led to take a side. What exactly makes Nemesis so clearly the villain here? That isn't clear to me. Nor if the Agarthians deserved to be banished. They also suffered a genocide of sort, I believe, since their society was made to collapse and the remnants of them only remained in the shadows for so long. I may be completely off with the lore here. They used the bones of vanquished dragons during the war to fight but they also did because those held tremendous power.

Yeah, they're very shady and not exactly recommendable but it isn't clear they were this way before and this is the sort of thing that happens constantly to marginalized groups when they get desperate. Playing fair just doesn't make sense anymore. This is partially why I also liked Micaiah so much in her conflict with Ike and the Alliance. She was getting crushed, started getting desperate and shifted towards more shady measures, like using a rockslide. 

Nemesis killed Sothis and her children for no reason other than that the mole men told him to do it. I don't see how he can't be the villian.

[Vince777]

Just now, Landmaster said:

Nemesis killed Sothis and her children for no reason other than that the mole men told him to do it. I don't see how he can't be the villian.

Why did they want Sothis and her children killed though?

[Eryon]

For revenge on how the war went badly for them. They're more or less Neo-Nazis who say Hitler did nothing wrong or modern apologists for Soviets, Castro, etc.

[Troykv]

4 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

Nemesis killed Sothis and her children for no reason other than that the mole men told him to do it. I don't see how he can't be the villian.

Probably he was an idiot

The nature of Nemesis is unclear after all, we don't know his original reasons, we only know his actions.

But he still did enough bad to be considered a villain in the present of Fodlan, regardless of the original circunstances.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Troykv

[Landmaster]

2 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Why did they want Sothis and her children killed though?

The Agarthans wanted them dead out of revenge, they just got a random bandit to do their dirty work for them.

[Eryon]

Nemesis was just a human who got a taste for supreme power and acted accordingly. Even if he didn't have much of a problem with dragons, he still carried out TWSITD's instuctions (if only to thank them for their aid).

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, Troykv said:

The nature of Nemesis is unclear after all, we don't know his original reasons, we only know his actions.

I do wonder what kind of reign Nemesis did since he actually was king for a while. He was the bad guy, so i'm going to assume he was a tyrant but who knows. All the texts in the library say he was a tyrant but that may or may not have been altered by the Church.

[Landmaster]

4 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Probably he was an idiot

The nature of Nemesis is unclear after all, we don't know his original reasons, we only know his actions.

But he still did enough bad to be considered a villain in the present of Fodlan, regardless of the original circunstances.

Well he is considered bad in present day because the story Rhea told was that he was originally the King of Liberation but became power hungry and was forced to be slain by Seiros. Same for the 10 Elites~

Edited September 3, 2019 by Landmaster

[Troykv]

Just now, Landmaster said:

Well he is considered bad in present day because the story Rhea told was that he was originally the King of Liberation but because power hungry and was forced to be slain by Seiros. Same for the 10 Elites!

I'm not questioning that, but thanks for the reminder :3 ... I'm just curious about how Nemesis was before meeting the Agarthans.

[Landmaster]

Just now, Troykv said:

I'm not questioning that, but thanks for the reminder :3 ... I'm just curious about how Nemesis was before meeting the Agarthans.

Ah, well from what we know, I guess he was just a bandit. IIRC, there's nothing to suggest Rhea's lying about that. 

[Eryon]

TWISTD's own leadership says Nemesis was a bandit.

[Vince777]

17 minutes ago, Eryon said:

Being the one who engaged in genocide. Just as how Hitler is condemned. Hitler believed the Jews needing to expelled or exterminated in order to save Germany

Are you denying the Agarthians built war machines and used ultraviolence?

Their society collapsed in war with others (namely Sothis) ala Rome during its fall. They did not surrender or apologize or dismantle their weapons. Not genocide since nothing says they were targeted

You're an apologist for genocide now.

They were not being targeted for what they are and had plenty of time to stop waging war while giving an apology. There is no society on Fodlan where humans suffer from racism at the hands of dragons rather than other humans either.

 

 

I've no knowledge of why the Agarthians were at war against the dragons and you're not showing me that you do either. You don't know whether humans suffered from racism at the hand of the dragons or not. It may be that dragons intended to keep humans under their rule, confined to their space, and I can see why some would want to rebel against that. I don't think that conflict is very well explained. Or at least, I'm personally missing pieces. 

They built weapons to wage war as did all in history that have waged war. This seems completely irrelevant to me. What are you even saying. 

If they were not targeted, I don't see why they'd end up having to live in the shadows. They clearly had no place to be after their defeat and they weren't very numerous anymore. Plus you've seen what Rhea did to anyone that would oppose the Church. It's likely she would have destroyed all that is left if given the chance. That too is genocide. 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Vince777

[Eryon]

14 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I've no knowledge of why the Agarthians were at war against the dragons and you're not showing me that you do either.

You're the one who refuses to take what we're told from Rhea and scripture since it doesn't fit your narrative of humans being entitled to commit genocide.

You don't know whether humans suffered from racism at the hand of the dragons or not. It may be that dragons intended to keep humans under their rule, confined to their space, and I can see why some would want to rebel against that.

Lay off the HFY. We are not shown Rhea properly ruling Fodlan despite plenty of time to do so. No speaking of humans as filth. No barring humans from job. Saying that is like Jews were racist against the Germans, Armenians racist against the Turks, etc. Humans are from all the sources the privileged kind if there is one.

They built weapons to wage war as did all in history that have waged war. This seems completely irrelevant to me. What are you even saying. 

You're spinning a belligerent kingdom as being attacked by meanie dragons from the dragons racist against them. Considering what we know from official history, the word of TWSITD (namely Nemesis being a criminal), and what we learn from Path GD your narrative is just more HFYism.

If they were not targeted, I don't see why they'd end up having to live in the shadows.

The West's governments strongly crack down on terrorist organizations like ISIS and the Aryan Brotherhood. The latter especially since White Males do not at all suffer from racism in the First World.

Plus you've seen what Rhea did to anyone that would oppose the Church.

You mean the West Church (ties to the genocidal TWSITD who engaged in war) or Edelgard's empire (which demands to rule the continent unopposed).

It's likely she would have destroyed all that is left if given the chance. That too is genocide. 

I'll wait for you to show Thoese Who Slither In The Dark being willing to share a world with the dragons if ever offered terms for surrendering their weaponry and agreeing the obey the law.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Eryon

[CyberNinja]

4 minutes ago, Eryon said:

The latter especially since White Males do not at all suffer from racism in the First World.

?

Unless you mean to imply there has never been a racist who was not white, and if there was, they would never dare target someone who was white on the basis of race, then this is completely wrong?

That said we're starting to get off topic in an area that is better reserved for other parts of the board.

[Vince777]

You don't seem to understand that anything that Rhea or scripture would say is biased, at best her perspective and sometimes even an outright lie. You have no actual knowledge of the motives involved in the past conflicts. 

You make a lot of assumptions but with no insight whatsoever on the world before the conflict and that is because the game does not provide much of it. At least from what I could tell. Of course humans aren't denied jobs in the current world as humans is all there is left. I'm not claiming to have insight either but I can raise possibilities that you refuse for some reason to even consider. Why were the Agarthans at war with the dragons and why couldn't it have been to rectify some injustice?

"I'll wait for you to show Thoese Who Slither In The Dark being willing to share a world with the dragons if the were offered terms for surrending their weaponry and agreeing the obey the law."

I don't consider that out of the realm of possibilities at all. We're never really made aware of what Agarthans were really like and what were their motives in the war. They also may have little to do with what they've become centuries later as "TWSITD". 

Yes, I did mean the western church. Outright killed the Bishops she had captured and many before that, like Christophe. Not a single one with the knowledge that she is a dragon.





 


 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Vince777

[Crysta]

I'm willing to bet that Nemesis was exactly what his supporters and naysayers said he was in-game: a significantly smarter and luckier Batta the Beast/Kostas.

I mean I can't know for sure but I'm pretty confident of that thesis based on the limited information presented to us. I mean, manipulating powerful people to use for their own ends seems to be the Slitherers' general go-to strategy.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Crysta

[Eryon]

32 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

You don't seem to understand that anything that Rhea or scripture would say is biased, at best her perspective and sometimes even an outright lie. You have no actual knowledge of the motives involved in the past conflicts.
 

You haven't given much grounds not to take the info we're told that isn't "meanie dragon."

You make a lot of assumptions but with no insight whatsoever on the world before the conflict and that is because the game does not provide much of it. At least from what I could tell. Of course humans aren't denied jobs in the current world as humans is all there is left. I'm not claiming to have insight either but I can raise possibilities that you refuse for some reason to even consider.

Please. Rhea had she been more fierce on regulating human depravity and/or putting humans in their place could have just designed the empire to worship the emperor with those sharing his blood as one divinely ordained cast (with scripture outright telling so). She did not.

I don't consider that out of the realm of possibilities at all. We're never really made aware of what Agarthans were really like and what were their motives in the war. They also may have little to do with what they've become centuries later as "TWSITD". 

TWSITD did not show they wish to share a world with dragons or move on from the war which they lost.

Yes, I did mean the western church. Outright killed the Bishops she had captured and many before that, like Christophe. Not a single one with the knowledge that she is a dragon.

So you're ignoring their ties to the genocidal TWSITD and them waging war.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Eryon

[Timlugia]

Well, both Rhea and TWISTD, who are opposite sides that knew him, called Nemesis a bandit and murderer. And when he resurrected in the present day, he massacred bunch of villages without reason, kills everyone between him and Rhea. That's pretty much a villain by definition.

[Hardric62]

23 minutes ago, Eryon said:

 

Please. Rhea had she been more fierce on regulating human depravity and/or putting humans in their place could have just designed the empire to worship the emperor with those sharing his blood as one divinely ordained cast (with scripture outright telling so). She did not.

 

Beyond what I can only call as 'Humanity Fuck No', something just as toxic as the HFY you keep whining about...

Personal interpretation, but one my beefs with Rhea's method of ruling and why it failed (she is the one telling she passed the last thousand years enforcing peace and order on Fodlan, that's called ruling, whatever it is done from a position of power or not) is that... 'divinely ordained caste' is one of the very reason things went to shit.

She pretty much crowns the emperor ('witness the coronation', but if you think if the pope equivalent can't 'veto' emperors she doesn't like in medieval times...), which gives him a 'divine right to rule', since his crowning is approved by the Goddess' voice on Fodlan.

Rest of the nobility most certainly wants in on the 'divine right to rule' bandwagon, (having religion back you to secure your rule is as old as the pharaohs, I'm sure Fodlan's nobility can think of that one), but Rhea probably isn't doing that for all of them, that would cheapen the empror she's partner with for the ruling.

So they leverage the Crests they have, pushing forward the 'Goddess' Gifts' parts of the scriptures forward, and their ancestry amongst the sacred heroes of legend to forge themselves their own version of the 'divine mandate'. And Rhea let it slip for whatever reason, which translated into tacit approval for these people, which could bring out the fact the Church was also all about stomping out bad Crest Bearers like Nemesis.

Cue centuries of a caste being told it has a divine right to rule, with all the entitlement issues it brings up, thanks to the tangible sign of divine favor they have, in a context where this 'divine favor' they now need after centuries of using that excuse is fading. You get Fodlan's current sterling nobility.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Hardric62

[Crysta]

35 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Well, both Rhea and TWISTD, who are opposite sides that knew him, called Nemesis a bandit and murderer. And when he resurrected in the present day, he massacred bunch of villages without reason, kills everyone between him and Rhea. That's pretty much a villain by definition.

Also, his name is literally Nemesis lol

[timon]

9 hours ago, Eryon said:

Please. Rhea had she been more fierce on regulating human depravity and/or putting humans in their place could have just designed the empire to worship the emperor with those sharing his blood as one divinely ordained cast (with scripture outright telling so). She did not.

If she did this debate would be a lot more simple, since what you just described is quite obviously a villain and evil thing to do. Are you insane?

[Eltoshen]

If anybody can look at that scene of Rhea sentencing church members to death and think that's a normal justifiable thing to do, I'd call the cops on them.

[CyberNinja]

1 hour ago, Eltoshen said:

If anybody can look at that scene of Rhea sentencing church members to death and think that's a normal justifiable thing to do, I'd call the cops on them.

Normally I'd shrug at it as the norm for that society; if that hadn't been a subject of debate by your students after the fact.