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Camus The Dark Knight

FE4 Best Father For *Each* Child.

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Sort of working on a little project at the moment. I am looking for what most would consider the best father for each child (Also I don't know all the localized names, so forgive me if I use a few older versions). The rules for this...

1: Siblings don't need to have the same parent. You could do caster guy x Aiden for a better Lana, and physical guy x Aiden for a better Lester.

2: The father isn't limited. So Lewyn can be the father of Arthur, Corple, and Ced who can thus all use Forseti.

3: No limitation of weapons. As long as the kid has the rank to use it, they can, regardless of if it's even obtainable/limited in number/can be inherited.

4: This is factoring in only combat at max level. Things like availability, movement, staff usage, and similar do not matter.

5: Rings/bracelets are banned. So there won't be any "With <x skill> ring, so and so would be amazing!" kind of scenarios. Just base skills and ones that equipped weapons provide.

6: Opponents are going to be competent, not -10 attack speed knights and bandits or whatever, so for example adept may be preferable to pursuit on a character that is normally faster than generic enemies, but not against bosses or whatever.

I know a couple are extremely obvious, such as Larcei having Holyn as a father for Balmung access. But I would be interested in input for others. So far it's looking like Lewyn for every caster child since he gives access to Forseti, or tornado for the minor blood children (or Elwind for Lana). Holyn for Larcei, Ulster, Patty, and Leen. The first two because Balmung, the later two since they kind of require Luna to actually kill anything. Alec for most of the rest ones due to rounded growths that usually result in capped stats, or only off by 1-2 points, and the powerful nihil skill. Though more detailed analysis and other opinions are welcome.

I ask since I need to add them as static characters (i.e. what non-children characters and enemies are) rather than dynamic ones.

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I'll be frank, I feel staff usage should count. Also, most units can easily get to ~25 spd due to some pairs and so the only bosses that mess with this would be those focused on speed to begin with. Also not final, but still.

Lester: Midir is the only one who can pass Brave Bow and Pursuit. I'd say my case rests there, but he has Charge as well.

Lana: If only combat's being considered, I would say Azel or Lewyn (her speed is low enough that I could see the case of Continue on Lewyn) works. But Claude is better for her overall what with the early Rescue/Fortify and especially the shenanigans you can get up to with it (you count Balmung glitch, I count Rescue glitch).

Ulster: While Holyn has Luna and Balmung, Naiose/Noish has Critical and Charge and Jamke had Continue/Charge. Without Balmung I'd argue the latter two but if you decide the glitch is the way then him.

Larcei: Same as with Ulster but Jamke's lesser than Naoise/Noish.

Diarmud: Beowolf covers his bases really well frankly. He already has continue as well.

Nanna: Beo might be a better option in general, but Finn is also pretty viable. She could also benefit from a unit like Jamke, but I'm not so sure she'll get much of an opportunity to get Continue continuously.

Corple: Lewyn might be better combat wise, but Claude suits him more.

Leen: Her best bet is taking advantage of prayer. Combat wise, Dew's Sol could leave her SOL, Holyn is powerful but I don't know if it'll be enough for her to overcome her limits, anything with charge is a bad call usually..

Sety: Lewyn.

Fee: It's a question of skills vs growths. Defence will likely not save her from an arrow, so I'm leaning towards Naoise/Noish.

Arthur: I mean, Lewyn.

Tinny: Azel is a better choice for her mainly because of her having Continue anyway and Wrath crits being more "reliable" than the critical skill, meaning Lewym's best bnefits aren't as necessary and she does like his growths and the possibility of doubling on top of Continue. Her 27 spd isn't perfect but she already has continue.

Faval: Faval would more generally benefit from Dew having Bargain or Holyn's big HP boost, but here I'd say Jamke due to the massive combat increase due to skills.

Patty: Holyn gives her Luna, Dew gives Sol, Naoise/Noish and Jamke give the most skills. 

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5 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

Though more detailed analysis and other opinions are welcome.

I ask since I need to add them as static characters (i.e. what non-children characters and enemies are) rather than dynamic ones.

while we're at it, you might want to check these as well, just to get some more ideas:

 

as for the topic itself:

- Sigurd x Deirdre(canon);

- Cuan x Ethlin(canon);

- Midir x Adean: Pursuit + Brave bow inheritance. enough said. | Jamka x Adean: mainly for the Killer/Brave bow inheritance;

- Lex x Ira: more tactical options, easier to level up. | Holyn x Ira: for dedicated swordfighter builds, along with some backstory for Holyn;

- Holyn x Brigid: Patty really needs that starting B rank in swords, along with Luna;

- Beowulf x Lachesis: mainly for Pursuit due to a more reliable damage ouput. | Noish x Lachesis: mainly for Critical. it's basicly an alternative build that relies more on RNG to deal damage;

- Levin x Fury: for some of the most broken child units in the game. Sety's Speed levels will skyrocket, along with criticals. Fee will become the bane of mages;

- Azel x Tiltyu: Pursuit + Wrath is a deadly combination. | Lex x Tiltyu: a build based on risky play. somehow more tactical, but also less reliable on basic damage output;

- Dew x Sylvia: Leen could benefit from Sol, and Corple from Bargain. | Alec x Sylvia: just to avoid getting critted to oblivion and beyond due to Awareness.

 

guess that's all.

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I'm working on a project for something, not doing a play-through, so I guess *technically* it could be considered a ROM hacking sort of thing, but my question doesn't really belong there since it's not about the modifications themselves, and more gameplay elements (which anyone who plays the vanilla game can give input and opinions on). That is why I am looking for solely battle performance. Imagine what would be the strongest if forced to fight strong opponents 1v1 on plane tiles. As I said in my first post, fathers are not limited to one pairing and siblings are not bound to the same father. I am looking merely for the strongest 1v1 combat for each child character at level 30.

While this isn't exactly what I am doing, I guess a good way to get an idea across would be which father would each kid benefit from the most of forced in to an arena gauntlet sort of situation. And there are no limits, so Ced, Arthur, and Corple can all use Foreseti. My main question is for the kids who don't really have an obvious answer (those who can not inherit holy weapons or game breaking skills, such as Nanna, Lester, etc.)

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If you're trying to make a canon story, then Fin Nanna + Beowolf Delmudd + Lex Lester should be considered.

Other than that:

Levin    Rana
Holin    Lakche
Holin    Skasaher
Beowolf    Delmud
Mideel    Lester
Alec    Fee
Levin    Arthur
Noish    Patty
Noish    Nanna
Holin    Leen
Lex    Tinny
Jamuka    Faval
Levin    Sety
Levin    Corpul

If you're trying to turn them into enemies, Lex's kids should get some compensation for the disadvantage of the Elite skill at LV30.

 

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14 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

That is why I am looking for solely battle performance. Imagine what would be the strongest if forced to fight strong opponents 1v1 on plane tiles. As I said in my first post, fathers are not limited to one pairing and siblings are not bound to the same father. I am looking merely for the strongest 1v1 combat for each child character at level 30.

While this isn't exactly what I am doing, I guess a good way to get an idea across would be which father would each kid benefit from the most of forced in to an arena gauntlet sort of situation. And there are no limits, so Ced, Arthur, and Corple can all use Foreseti. My main question is for the kids who don't really have an obvious answer

if i understood right, in terms of unit's strength:

[fathers - warriors]

Fin - Lex - Holyn

[fathers - mages]

Levin - Azel - Claude

[childs - warriors]

Lakche - Leaf - Altenna

[childs - mages]

Sety - Tinny

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13 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

6: Opponents are going to be competent, not -10 attack speed knights and bandits or whatever, so for example adept may be preferable to pursuit on a character that is normally faster than generic enemies, but not against bosses or whatever.

As my analysis makes clear the specific Boss you are talking about as enemy will have a significant impact on the best father. Also sorry if the names of the dead lords aren't consistent with current translation, I was checking their stats from the good wiki, and their names should be consistent with that.

 

13 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

So far it's looking like Lewyn for every caster child since he gives access to Forseti, or tornado for the minor blood children (or Elwind for Lana).

For the Female casters that is not certain. In most cases Tinny would be better served by Azel as a father so she can inherit pursuit and have both it and adept, unless the enemy she is facing is Ovis, Simia, Porcus, Ishtar, Meng , Bleng, Mabel, or (possibly, if he uses the silver over his Bolt Sword) Boyce, then the slightly higher might of the better wind tome would make Levin a better father. Note if stat boosting rings are allowed (your rules only mention skill granting rings so it seems a bit ambiguous) Ishtar would be the only enemy she doesn't double. Lana is far more debateable,  the list of enemies she can't double makes Boyce certain, adds Robert, Bovis, and Draco to the list, and she only gets Adept from a Lewyn Father. Note that I am assuming the weapons have max kills so everyone effectively has the critical skill.

13 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

Holyn for Larcei, Ulster, Patty, and Leen.

Fair enough.

13 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

Alec for most of the rest ones due to rounded growths that usually result in capped stats, or only off by 1-2 points, and the powerful nihil skill.

Nihil is a lot more niche than it seems (baring Fee). It is purely defensive, requiring the enemy to be able to hit, and in some cases due so below 1/2 health, and it only effects 13 enemies from the second Gen, specifically Riddell, Boyce, Meng, Bleng, Mabel, Bovis, Tigris, Anguilla, Equus, Simia, Canis, Porcus, and Julius (16 if you count killer bow wielders, which adds Maykov, Scorpio, and Draco, 17 for Bramsel's Horse slayer on the cavalry options, and 3 more if you include recruitables that start as enemies, and it theoretically might protects against the staggeringly unlikely triangle attacks).

Fee I'll pencil in as best with an Alec father, due to arrows otherwise having effective damage.

Faval is the most debatable of the bunch, Jamke gives the best set of skills, but vitally misses his skill stat cap without some lucky level-ups, which matters due to the Yewfelle's low accuracy. Alec I will mention because of Julius, as it would make Faval the only unit other than Seliph, and Julia that has Nihil to block Wrath, and is capable of damaging Julius on the last map. Beowulf is in the running as well, he only adds charge (with a slightly higher proc rate thab Jamke due to notably higher health) without the adept Jamke has, but he does average that skill cap (although both him and Alec have miss the speed cap on average by 0.6).

Delmund I will go with Midale, he hits the key caps and gives him pursuit and charge (he gets adept for free on promotion, but his best weapon would likely be the Hero sword anyway), and still hit all the key caps. If he can get away with 2 lower speed Beowulf wins out due to a slightly higher skill (and thus crit chance) and slightly higher charge chance due to an HP lead.

Lester I will go with Beowulf, he gets charge, hits a lot of solid caps, has pursuit in the event there is something with a mere 14 AS, as he will be locked to the Hero bow (which renders adept useless, as he is already getting its effect from the Hero weapon).

Nanna I will pencil in Finn, as his personal conversation with her is the only way she is capping speed, he gives her pursuit, miracle while niche if used right can make her invincible for a turn, hero sword would be her weapon and remove the desire for adept. She is at the same speed tier as Lana, so if that is insufficient, the charge skill offered by Midir would make him an arguably better father.

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15 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

As my analysis makes clear the specific Boss you are talking about as enemy will have a significant impact on the best father. Also sorry if the names of the dead lords aren't consistent with current translation, I was checking their stats from the good wiki, and their names should be consistent with that.

 

For the Female casters that is not certain. In most cases Tinny would be better served by Azel as a father so she can inherit pursuit and have both it and adept, unless the enemy she is facing is Ovis, Simia, Porcus, Ishtar, Meng , Bleng, Mabel, or (possibly, if he uses the silver over his Bolt Sword) Boyce, then the slightly higher might of the better wind tome would make Levin a better father. Note if stat boosting rings are allowed (your rules only mention skill granting rings so it seems a bit ambiguous) Ishtar would be the only enemy she doesn't double. Lana is far more debateable,  the list of enemies she can't double makes Boyce certain, adds Robert, Bovis, and Draco to the list, and she only gets Adept from a Lewyn Father. Note that I am assuming the weapons have max kills so everyone effectively has the critical skill.

Fair enough.

Nihil is a lot more niche than it seems (baring Fee). It is purely defensive, requiring the enemy to be able to hit, and in some cases due so below 1/2 health, and it only effects 13 enemies from the second Gen, specifically Riddell, Boyce, Meng, Bleng, Mabel, Bovis, Tigris, Anguilla, Equus, Simia, Canis, Porcus, and Julius (16 if you count killer bow wielders, which adds Maykov, Scorpio, and Draco, 17 for Bramsel's Horse slayer on the cavalry options, and 3 more if you include recruitables that start as enemies, and it theoretically might protects against the staggeringly unlikely triangle attacks).

Fee I'll pencil in as best with an Alec father, due to arrows otherwise having effective damage.

Faval is the most debatable of the bunch, Jamke gives the best set of skills, but vitally misses his skill stat cap without some lucky level-ups, which matters due to the Yewfelle's low accuracy. Alec I will mention because of Julius, as it would make Faval the only unit other than Seliph, and Julia that has Nihil to block Wrath, and is capable of damaging Julius on the last map. Beowulf is in the running as well, he only adds charge (with a slightly higher proc rate thab Jamke due to notably higher health) without the adept Jamke has, but he does average that skill cap (although both him and Alec have miss the speed cap on average by 0.6).

Delmund I will go with Midale, he hits the key caps and gives him pursuit and charge (he gets adept for free on promotion, but his best weapon would likely be the Hero sword anyway), and still hit all the key caps. If he can get away with 2 lower speed Beowulf wins out due to a slightly higher skill (and thus crit chance) and slightly higher charge chance due to an HP lead.

Lester I will go with Beowulf, he gets charge, hits a lot of solid caps, has pursuit in the event there is something with a mere 14 AS, as he will be locked to the Hero bow (which renders adept useless, as he is already getting its effect from the Hero weapon).

Nanna I will pencil in Finn, as his personal conversation with her is the only way she is capping speed, he gives her pursuit, miracle while niche if used right can make her invincible for a turn, hero sword would be her weapon and remove the desire for adept. She is at the same speed tier as Lana, so if that is insufficient, the charge skill offered by Midir would make him an arguably better father.

You reminded me of an important thing, factoring in stat boosts from conversations which I had forgotten. Weapons are not maxed kills to keep the skill somewhat unique. Though your dreadlord comment gets the idea, each character is going to be going against not just the dreadlords, but the whole cast, rounded out to 100 (All player, all plot-relevant NPCs that appear as a unit Eldigan, Arvis, Arion, etc., generic bosses that have unique stats and skills, such as Boyce.) The reason I think Nihil will be of more value here than the base game is because about 1/5 of the enemies you encounter have some sort of skill it negates, and that increases if they are a class that is weak to a certain weapon. One example of this is Sigurd with the Tyrfing equipped actually lost to Chagall of all people because he landed two knight killer hits thanks to a lucky great shield.

I think the note you made with Tinny is interested, switching to Elwind is won't be a huge deal since it is only six damage lower, and the amount of doubling (she will have high speed) will more than make up for it. For some reason I was remembering wrong and thought Mage Fighter had pursuit (maybe since every other "fighter" does). Bolganone may be useful in a select few fights. I think for Lana Lewyn may still be better since the high priest has atrocious speed, adept + crit increases the chances (though I haven't done the math completely).

As for Lester a killer bow is an option as well and I find it's commonly making it's way on to the contenders, though shifting weapons is allowed for times it's more beneficial. (The killer bow has 3 weight instead of eight).

The other mounted kids mentioned make sense, though if you see the combatant list you may change your mind about the Nihil thing, I'll give the list. Some simply won't matter (For example I don't see someone like Lester killing someone like Shannon, Nihil or not) but it will certainly be useful in others.

Here is the combatant list... (It will be a mix of localized and unlocalized names since I don't know all of them)

Sigurd
Noish
Alec
Arden
Azel
Lex
Finn
Quan
Ethlyn
Midel
Aiden
Dew
Jamka
Ayra
Dierdre
Holyn
Lachesis
Lewyn
Sylvia
Beowulf
Erin
Tailtu
Claude
Bridget
Eldigan
Young Arvis (Sage)
Byron
Lombard
Reptor
Andrei
Chagall
Mahnya
Radney
Rodalvan
Mana
Dimna
Tristan        
Oifaye
Julia
Feemina
Amid
Johan
Johalva
Shannon
Daisy
Jeanne
Ares
Linda
Laylea
Asaello
Hawk
Sharlow
Hannibal
Seliph
Larcei
Ulster
Lana
Lester
Delmud
Fee
Arthur
Patty
Leaf
Nanna
Tinny
Leen
Faval
Ced
Corple
Altena
Danan
Ishtor
Vampa
Blume 
Travant
Lideel
Arione
Hilda
Old Arvis (Radically different in combat from his sage form, so he gets in twice)
Roberto
Boyce
Brian
Scorpius
Ishtar
Meng
Manfroy
Julius (Chapter 10 version, +5 magic, no nihil, only 2 characters even have a chance otherwise, Dierdre & Julia)
Mus
Bovis
Tigris
Lepus
Draco
Anguilla
Equus
Ovis
Simia
Gallus
Canis
Porcus
Zeus

All level 30 (for bosses not yet level 30 I made a formula to get level 30 stats) And remember everyone has access to any weapon they can use, so it will change stuff up a lot. I have only tested it with Sigurd (well not yet the children characters because I am still figuring them) and there has been some surprising outcomes both losing to some I didn't expect (such as the aforementioned Chagall) and getting some odd victories in. The rules so far (feel free to criticize/add something).

Attacker chooses weapon before defender. Due to OP as hell holy weapons, plus the way FE4s quirks when it comes to counter mechanics, this works better.

Attacker goes first in the case of equal attack speed (For example Sigurd and Byron both have 22 AS, Sigurd went first)

No rings/bracelets allowed, the only exception is Zeus since he is sort of a unique case.

I think I layed the rest out in an earlier post.

 

EDIT: Grammar

Edited by Camus The Dark Knight

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Not sure if Azel|Tinny + Bolganon can beat Fin|Tinny + Elwind or Alec|Tinny + Prayer Sword.

Charge skill will be a waste of slot if they fight in arena style.

Edited by Tetragrammaton

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For clarification, It's not an arena style fight, two units going head to head on a map, so charge can still activate. I made this really quick video to kind of show what I am doing, it's not particularity great since I made it in a few minutes without any sort of editing (cutting out death fade outs/screams, music, etc.), it's a 2 minute sample just to get the idea across. 

The reason for topic creation is, I wanted the most powerful variants of a child characters to be the ones taking part.

Edited by Camus The Dark Knight

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This is about combat, right? Not accounting for support/utility?

Lester: Midir for Brave Bow and Pursuit. That's what he mainly needs.

Lana: Her best father is Claud imo, but since this is about combat, I'd say her best father is Azel because he gives her good speed and Pursuit. She also gets a Rescue Staff which gives her a lot of experience which makes leveling her to 20 much easier so she can begin fighting.

Ulster: I'm leaning towards Noish- he's able to inherit his swords and he has access to Critical which is nice. Jamke and Dew are also nice fathers for him.

Larcei: Definitely Lex. She gets Vantage and great Strength. She's already fast too.

Diarmuid: Beowulf. He has everything that Diarmuid needs in terms of inheritance: swords, Pursuit, charge is always nice, etc.

Nanna: I like Finn as her father. They have a convo in Ch.7 which results in her getting some more stats and he gives her Prayer, which is always nice on a support character when they're in combat.

Coirpre: Lewyn because of Foresti. Done.

Lene: You have a lot of options for combat!Lene. Lex and Chulainn may be the best options. Lex gives her defense and Vantage which is always nice for a dancer to have. She'll always have the first shot and she may have enough strength to do it. However Chulainn gives her Luna and B rank in swords. Luna helps her get through her enemies' defenses, which she badly needs to do in order to deal good damage, and B rank in swords allow her to use a Brave Sword. Both are good options, but I'm leaning towards Chulainn.

Ced: Lewyn because of Forseti. Done.

Fee: Noish gives her good growths and Critical. She already has Pursuit so Continue isn't needed, but Critical is nice on her.

Faval: I guess Jamke because he gives him good growths? Faval is weird because he comes with Ichival and doesn't require too much investment. Jamke gives him the stats he needs to do well.

Patty: Chulainn for better swords and combat prowess. See Lene for what he can give her.

Arthur: Lewyn because of Forseti. Done.

Tine: Either Lex, Azel, or Lewyn. Lex gives her the great Vantage + Wrath combo, but this hurts her lategame. Since they're lvl 30, I'd have to rule this one out. Tine's magic growth is better with Azel while her speed growth is better with Lewyn. With Azel, she'll be able to use Bolganoe, and with Lewyn, she'll be able to wield Tornado IIRC. Lewyn also gives her 5 points of magic in Chapter 10 which is nice, and I'm partial to the sound of Tornado Tine.

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On 8/8/2019 at 10:37 PM, Tetragrammaton said:

If you're trying to make a canon story, then Fin Nanna + Beowolf Delmudd + Lex Lester should be considered.

 

Lester being Lex son was never considered canon  ....

And it was never confirmed if Beowulf or Finn are Nanna and Delmud fathers, the developers said it's who the player choses even if more likely it's one of them ...

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5 hours ago, Mylady said:

Lester being Lex son was never considered canon  ....

And it was never confirmed if Beowulf or Finn are Nanna and Delmud fathers, the developers said it's who the player choses even if more likely it's one of them ...

Well, Delmund can use the Beo Sword in FE5. That's kinda confirmation.

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