Rinkah's niche

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I've tried a few builds on her, but she always falls flat. You know why? her growth rates are awfully shitty in any class, even her magic, spd and res are shitty and she doesn't start very high in any stat. Outside of luck, Felicia is sadly underpowered in any way possible.

So her being able to pick up level 15 skills quickly means nothing, is that it?

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Here's the problem: Reina won't tank anything Subaki won't tank, and he levels far quicker than her to have a tanky flier around. Subaki is like Percy in sky knight class: less efficient, but I prefer using him than a unit who dies in 1 or 2 rounds with a shuriken debuff (my Subaki with average def tanked like 1 or 2 spear fighters with seal def and 3 ninjas in EP during the shitty designed ninja village chapter last time I played that, and his speed wasn't stellar so if I had let him take 1 or 2 more speed points alongside some HP and def, he'd have survived that, BTW he had the guard naginata, so Hinoka would've died twice faster and drown only 2-3 guys on her face before dying with her low def and mediocre HP, and he had a ninja put on his back so he didn't die from being doubled, I wanted him to rush to the chest with the ninja but it failed XD).

 BTW I play only hard, not lunatic which I find stupid since I've tried Awakening and Radiant Dawn in the (2nd and) highest difficulties which were just a stat fest of units with 3x the stats for their level and hack forges, and the beginning of Fates where you couldn't even fight the band of samurai + archers just like the spear fighters + thieves in chapter 9 conquest with tripple attack stance on seal defense.

So you admit to favoring Subaki, who the general consensus says is a terrible unit. Also, comparing Subaki and Percy is like comparing apples and oranges. They're two completely different units, and they're on different sides of the game.

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

How many units have enough skill to use it against every single ennemy you'll find in the whole game from the moment they appear? Aside from Kaze and maybe Hana, who can't wield a lance anyway, not many. Subaki with a +1 subaki's pike is a normal strength/speed steel weapon user with darting blow, but instead he doesn't get slowed and if he's blessed a tiny bit he just recks havoc, while taking hits better than more than half of BR cast, which is better than Hinoka can ever hope to do. Subaki can survive EP, with or without guard naginata, nearly as well as Godboro who many claim to be incredible, except she doesn't have darting blow to double attack and she can't abuse strong weapons without suffering drawbacks, because her skill is average and her speed is just better than Silas' speed, which doesn't mean much when Hinata beats her for at least the 5 next level ups while being supposedly slow, and both Subaki and Hinata have/get better HP than her as time goes.

 By the way, Subaki's pike is an early castle visit reward, so it's not hard at all to find the first one, and before having any castle points I managed to have 2 pikes in 1 file before getting to midgame. I like to use the units I prefer or make marriage/buddy seal builds so yeah, I grind for supports which also let me get more forge content and random drops. And I don't even do things like completing the supports for everyone, just the 1 or 2 units I want to build a specific way.

You tell me since you seem to think skill is the most important stat in the game, which it isn't.

Sure, there's that. But other than that? You'd have to rely on getting lucky with interactions from others - interactions that could just as easily end up producing something else.

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

You don't see vantage and duellist blow as good things on Subaki? He has high skill>higher crit rate than average units without crit bonuses and one of the few units in the game who actually has more than 90-95% accuracy for the whole game in a game with single RNG dice roll, , which means he will hit more often than Hinoka and LOLReina (sorry but her hit rates are trash from her joining map and her trash skill growth won't help her with low accuracy types of weapons, especially yumi, she rolls 70s in hit rate on ennemies in chapter 11, and will grow like 10-15% hit rate counting luck meanwhile the ennemies' avoid will grow 15-25% if not more so she'll fall under 60% soon enough).

Better have a good proc skill that also refills the guard stance bar in 1 proc to tank a hit for free than not having any useful one, and sorry but Hinoka's only useful skill for damage comes at level 15 promoted in her reclass option, so she will never get any damage boost without marriage or maybe reclass (but Sakura already drains one support option as a wasted opportunity for great class set so...meanwhile Hinata can at least get benefits from buddying Subaki). Basara's level 5 skill doesn't count because it's nearly as useless as golembane (which can at least help with DLC grinding map).

Duelist's Blow only works once per turn. Vantage isn't something I see as a good thing when you don't have the stuff to make it work, like Subaki does. Ryoma can make it work because he has range, and his stats allow him to possibly take out his attacker before they can attack. Subaki has no such luck - he cannot retaliate against ranged attackers unless you give him a Kodachi, which is weak and can't double, a Wakizashi, which can't double and leaves him open up close in addition to damaging his evade, a Levin Sword, which is magic, can't crit, and kills his evade, or one of two randomly found weapons with only 1 might.

You mean a proc skill that you cannot rely on? How many times must I say it? 

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Sorry but what? Lucina needs: Chrom to be overlevelled, his wife to be as well, and a good skill from her mom because her father gives her...a skill she could acquire in a master seal and 4 level ups by herself if it wasn't forced because Awakening's stupid design goes over the top, and guess what? Of the 5 moms she can have, Olivia has 0 hp, def and res, Maribelle 0 hp, str and def and Sumia has 0 hp, def and unimpressive res for an anti magic class, which let you choose between Sully and MU for a mom that doesn't hurt her defenses. So Lucina needs you to train 2 units to overlevelled tier where they could stomp the game by themselves anyway, just not to get her ass kicked in the chapter following her recruitment, where she dies in 2-3 hits, be it magical or physical. I feel forced to grind her mom in DLC in order for Lucina to not be left with 50% of her father's stats and nothing else than her 1 range 12 MT sword with which she hits as hard as an underlevelled Nowi who tanks more attacks while hitting back at 1 and 2 range. At least Say'ri has access to a 1-2 range physical sword after defeating her brother and only her class can wield it, and she's got at least as good base stats as Lucina, which tells a lot about Ylisse princess's performance, underwhelming especially in a game where everyone and his mom uses 1-2 or 2 range weapons and mages are superior to physical units...

 Meanwhile by feeding Mozu her own paralogue's exp, she get like +5 to every non res stat, while having some of the best growths in the game and well spread with it. If you only cared giving her one of your seals, be it DLC or anything else, you'd see her base stats in any normal class are superior to what you can see with any other early game unit's base stats, and she outclasses them hard in growths. Meaning by the time you end her paralogue, she's already superior to your Silas/anyone you could feed it to, including meatdragonshield Corrin whose reclass options are useless before promotion where Corrin finally has enough personal stats not to be useless when you loose dragonstone access. Mozu makes better use of any seal you give her than any other unit with the exception of Witch's mark, and her base class has nothing to loose from when you change her, while other units like Kaze loose much from loosing their weapon (only good DLC for him is dread fighter and even that is better used on someone with better performance).

>Mozu gets fed 5+ levels in her opening chapter
Sweet man
>Lucina can quickly pick up her own kills due to a powerful personal weapon and an effective weapon
Douchebag

Do you even realize how completely absurd you sound? And that you just contradicted yourself yet again??? How the hell does Lucina, who can quickly become self-sufficient, need more babying than freaking Mozu, who struggles to kill anything in her opening chapter because she's up against Faceless, which have good defense?? Also, I could just as easily give those items to someone else - someone who doesn't need all the spoonfeeding Mozu does - and get more out of it that way because I didn't have to bust my ass babysitting someone who starts out pretty much useless.

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

And loose a physical wall in order to feed kills to a unit barely usable 5 chapters later that caps strength at the same number his rival in role has as a base number? Kaze: 15 str max. Kagero: 15 base str. Choose your poney, I know which one I go with. You say Subaki has 0 damage and you tell me Kaze is great, like WTH! Kaze will never damage anything having positive defense numbers and sadly his magic is non-existant so he can't even use magic weapons. Kagero's strength goes even with Azama's troll stats repartition in mid game before Azama can promote if you wait lv 20 without spamming staves like I do in order to level my healers. Rinkah's def is nearly as good as Benny's, while Kaze has nothing going for him. You told me Kagero can't kill shit in late game? well bad news for you, she has 5 max strength over Kaze, so if she can't kill shit while maxing her str faster than anyone I've seen in FE history (except form changers), then Kaze won't even scratch the painting of their armor/clothing. Meanwhile Rinkah's base damage with fiery blood is like 2 of Kaze's attacks, except it only checks 1x for defense/res and she can self peel for magic, which is the whole point of having seal res on Oni savages.

You mean a physical wall that doesn't have the stats to do much else - much less tank, in addition to having a crappy start to boot?? If I want a tank, I want one that can also kill or at least severely weaken whatever is idiot enough to attack them. Last I checked, Rinkah struggles to do that. Also, Kagero's strength caps so easily because she's in a class with a low strength cap. 

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Hinoka. I'm mainly comparing Subaki with Hinoka, since it's the only other natural sky knight you get without grinding or capturing and Reina is already promoted only to fall flat with 1/3rd of her attacks missing and letting her open to counter attacks on EP. Not doubling ennemies isn't a negative point when it helps survive the turn. Hinoka (if she ever killed anyone on ennemy phase in sky knight) would just shoot an armageddon on herself by killing an ennemy in EP except if this ennemy is the only one in range. She won't one round mages on EP either, because she can't kill them with any 2 range weapon, with javelins not doubling and bolt naginata hitting their higher res.

Speak English, please. You tend to talk so much, yet say so little. Subaki's durability advantage over Hinoka probably isn't enough to matter. In addition, her personal skill is great, unlike Subaki's useless one.

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

2 words: effective weapons. Shurikens exploit it the best while being impossible to counter attack for ennemies in PP. 7 MT becomes 21 as far as I know when they're used against the good type of ennemy, and 21 is more MT than legendary weapons of any type. And no, ninjas weren't made to duel wyvern lords. Imagine David throwing flowers at Goliath, well Goliath would OHKO David. But Kagero as a ninja can do several things Hana can't as a samurai or archer: hit at any range and cap strength early (20 strength before promotion is nothing to laugh at especially when it comes with high speed and 1-2 range, hell she even has more strength than Ryoma only she doesn't have a hack weapon carrying her fat ass like lobster lord the bad dad).

 You get dual shuriken for axe users, and barb shuriken can help her deal high damage because even before promotion, 20+4 means she can deal 24 damage at 1-2 range with debuffs and poison strike, while also dealing 4x the damage after taking def into count, so a 16 def ennemy would still take 8x4=32 damage from non promoted Kagero with 5 str level ups (don't forget 70% str growth, 5 points away from cap), 2x (I'll do the math for you: 32x2=64 damage in one round, good luck not killing with that, even with 1 crit it's still 40 damage and not even counting any + str modifier like support partner, food, it would be 40 damage per crit with only 1 tonic if tonics go past stat caps like I think). There aren't many units who can't deal that amount of damage at 1-2 range while having good evade and choosing where they attack from. Aside from Ryoma, I think Hayato is the only one who can, and he's not even maintaining correct hit rates with anything past E/D ranks.

 As for Generals, 20+21=41, if they have 30 def she deals 6x2 damage to their 35 def without having to promote, as early as mid game (around hitting level 17 if she follows her averages). And why would you go master ninja for end game when you can just cap str and go to a better class like DF or puppeteer which both have better str cap? MN is only good on her for keeping up with skl and res, but after she caps str good bye I go see something else! Unlike Percy she caps one of the best stats very fast, why not enjoy this?

Effective weapons can be used by anyone. Also, for someone who seems to think skill is oh so important, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Kagero's skill isn't that great. And the fact that she's fragile. Oh, and bases wise, her speed is rather unimpressive - she starts at 12, which Kaze started at.... at level 3.

The Barb Shuriken is a pathetic weapon with only 4 might. 

Dread Fighter is DLC, and you only get two at most - what if I used those two Dread Scrolls on someone else???

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

So you never let your ninjas take any fight in EP? Because it seems like it's what you're telling us. In that case, you should use Kaden, he has the HP to take 2 physical hits and the res+luck to negate magic users while also having 15 base str and 20 str, like Kagero, but he naturally kills any horse unit he touches because they couldn't put back Tellius' good form changers so they decided they'd give manaketes cheat weapons with effectiveness over dragons and beasts underwhelming weapons with beast effectiveness as a forgive me gift. He has more avoid than Kagero due to having good luck, more hit and crit due to having more skl, while having nealy as much punch and being better at tanking hits, since you don't seem to use 1-2 range opportunity when it's the most useful. Do you also use Ryoma only on PP? No offense, just trying to understand your logic.

It's called "pick and choose your fights", genius. I know my units' limits and try not to have them take on more than they can handle. That's what it means to be a strategist. I'm okay with exposing my ninjas to mages, because they were tailor-made to trump mages. I am NOT okay with exposing them to archers or something like that unless I'm sure they won't die.  Also, when you mean Tellius's "good" form changers, you mean the ones that were helpless before transforming? 

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Except Silas doesn't get 2 hits in at all against actual ennemies (not normal difficulty 7 spd lvl 10 samurai or something like that), so he only sandbags forever and he looses 3 damage upon using the terrain to his advantage (trees, castles...), better give def boosters to Kaden so you can actually tank AND kill stuff (and Kaden is usable from the get go, doesn't take 14 levels to get to promotion and can even be instantly promoted if you feel like it, while Silas can't do anything at base except sand bagging, picking fights he can't end to feed kills to real offensive units, has no way to get hp back other than spending a turn self healing if you're using his movement to it's fullest because your healers can't keep up, meaning high movement itself isn't a good thing in birthrout, land of foot units, and the only healers who can keep with a horse unit are...SURPRISE! Falcon knights and Failicia the tactician who can't take a hit or she dies so she won't follow him too far on the front lines.

What the fuck does Kaden have to do with this? This is not Silas vs Kaden, last I checked. Also, Kaden is fragile physically, and his weapon doesn't help with that; in fact, it HURTS him, since he loses defense.

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

But the thing is, you trade 1-2 range for 2 range lock, high strength for high might, high base accuracy for high skill, in the end you loose 1-2 range and it's all you've done, BTW if you have a sniper Hana you grinded for supports, so don't come yelling supports take too long to build to tell me you prefer using a non-cannon archer who needs hardcore chapter 8/10 onward support grinding to be able to go into that class, draining ressources Kagero doesn't need to do the same thing at 1-2range. Hana is better than Kagero only with shuriken, otherwise she looses.

It isn't like Hana had usable 1-2 range as a samurai anyway. And she'd need supports to become a ninja, so what's your point? Also, i don't really see 1-2 range as much of a point in Kagero's favour when she's fragile and having her try to make use of it on enemy phase will likely get her killed.

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Effie's skl doesn't grow well, meanwhile Arthur can only get better because his skill growth is good and his hero promotion gives him even more skill. His Hp base is 6 points higher than Effie, his growth is 15% higher than her and over the 60% bar so more susceptible to actually proc at all (more than 2 points per 3 levels on average, that's far more than she can hope to get anytime soon). He gives her 2 spd, meaning he put her at a ridiculous 7 spd at base with 23 hp and 14 def, while she put him at 13 def, putting him at 8 spd, 29 hp and 13 def, he has 6 hp, 1 spd lead while she has 1 def. Crits are nothing for Effie backpack Arthur because he's a physical sponge, while also being able to tank more magic hits than her due to more HP and...equal res at base with only 10% growth difference for her and still 6 hp and 15% lead for Arthur. Crits aren't waiting for him at every corner, and their spd/def growths are nearly equal, while Arthur's skill has 1 more base value and 20% more growth, meaning he will grow more accurate as the game goes on while she'll miss ennemies more and more often. And he has 5 move when she has 4 for the 1st part of the game, where all this actually matters. Don't forget seal speed in chapter 7 put her at 0 speed (or -1 if you go for real values) so everyone and his mom doubles her without even pairing up. Effie should try to imitate faceless, they don't talk to tell you uninteresting things just for the need of filling the support conersations, and their stats spread is better than 80% of the classes in this game while having access to several seals and poison strike/grizzly wound. And facking wary fighter.

Why the hell are you emphasizing skill again??? Effie uses more accurate weapons than Arthur, last I checked. Also, it doesn't matter how good your growths are when you cannot be relied on to kill enemies and thus level up. Sure, he has high HP, but that's to be expected since he's a fighter, and HP is one of the two strong points fighters have. As for using Effie as a backpack for Arthur, I'll take that to mean you're okay with sacrificing a superior unit for the sake of a third-rate one. And the irony is that it's better off the other way around - he's used as HER backpack. Also, he does poorly against magic anyway because axes are weak against tomes on the weapon triangle. Once again, she uses more accurate weapons than he does - his 1 skill lead ain't nearly enough to make that up, especially with his non-existent luck stat. If she's struggling to hit enemies, what the hell does that say of Arthur, who uses less accurate weapons??? Nothing good, that's for sure.. With regard to seal speed, you think Arthur's gonna do much better when he'd also be getting doubled by everything, and taking more damage to boot? Also, bringing up personality doesn't help you one bit - sure, Arthur's funny, but that does not change the fact that he's a very risky, and very bad, unit that I'm better off avoiding like the plague.

On 8/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Hinoka died 3x through reloading the chapter in BR opera because of a 98% hit chance missing repeatedly on an racher she could kill if she wanted to not screw me deeper than anything/anyone else. It took 4 attempts (if not 5 it's been a long time) before she actually hit that 98% and killed that archer without being killed because of missing a nearly perfect scenario. Shit happens all the time, I prefer having a good unit that sometimes makes me reload because of an unlucky RNG shit than playing a worse unit just because it can't die to a random 1% crit, while this unit get crippled by movement, ennemy density, low skill, underwhelming growths where she would need them (why have 55% personal spd growth with a base of 5? She will never double as a knight anyway, better having 30% spd and 70% def and hp instead...). Plus you're saying Arthur's bad, well his reclass option makes him instantly better than Silas with hp+5 as a cavalier, and better than Effie who is locked to knight or healer with 2 magic and non-existent growth. You can still use her as a healer so she at least get some res and more speed than in knight, so she can be a good shuriken user or go back to great knight after promotion.

 Don't get me wrong, I love Gilliam, Bors (11 base def with good spd growthso he can one day double while being tanky just like Kliff in SOV), Gatrie, even RD Tauroneo and Brom to some extent, but CQ doesn't really like knights, between seal speed, seal def, poison strike and grizzly wound they just get annihilated without retaliation unless they're overkill to the point they don't draw ennemies to them (Benny...at least he can face master ninjas and fist them with their own stats repartition because they don't even scratch him, even if they hit him 50x per round). Attack stance for ennemies should be nered, I don't get how IS could thing it would be good if they send one seal def ennemy to the player then a horde of attack stance ennemies with bows and axes/lances to completely reck you just to tell you: hey buddy, not the good way, find another path! Sorry I'm not into puzzles when I'm not playing real puzzles with kids (it was my job, I'm not a pedophile and I don't really enjoy the company of kids).

So your response to a strategy failing is to try it again and again? That's the very definition of being insane, which is NOT a good strategic quality. If I'm going to do something risky, I at least make sure I have a back up plan in case it doesn't work out. And in this case, it's the worse unit that constantly makes me worry about restarting. This is a STRATEGY game, in case you forgot, and there's nothing strategic about using a unit that constantly forces you to play Russian roulette every time he sees combat.

Very funny, because Fates is much nicer to armors than all those other games the units you mentioned are from, especially Binding Blade, which is pretty much the worst game to be an armored unit in besides Genealogy of the Holy War.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[mangasdeouf]

On 8/31/2019 at 5:03 PM, Shadow Mir said:

So her being able to pick up level 15 skills quickly means nothing, is that it?

Not when she lacks in every single stat to do anything with it. Her only role is support, anything else will just get her killed or being bad compared with anyone else (in physical classes she's so bad past chapter 10 I don't even use her anymore, in magic classes she can't take a hit because her bases and growths are an abomination). I've even tried some breaker builds but even then she doesn't last long and her damage output is simply laughable (lower than Kaze XD).

So you admit to favoring Subaki, who the general consensus says is a terrible unit. Also, comparing Subaki and Percy is like comparing apples and oranges. They're two completely different units, and they're on different sides of the game.

Building supports is favoring a unit? Then why do children exist? Don't you think sticking units like Charlotte and Rinkah to their respective heirs to the throne is also a major form of favoritism? Because that means these units never actually fight but still take a seat in your team, just for 1 unit to shine. This is complete favoritism, any decision implying giving something to someone rather than someone else is favoritism. Giving the speedwings to Xander is favoritism. Everyone does this, everyone does favoritism. The only difference is who you favor.

You tell me since you seem to think skill is the most important stat in the game, which it isn't.

I didn't tell anything like that, just that compared with past games (those with 2x skill for acc and Awakening with ultra forges and everyone having 40-70% growth everywhere but in res/magic) skill is more important, because weapons have drawbacks (you ca't use your silver sword 20 times in a row and call it a day), skill is useful for rolling more good RNG to hit, to proc skills which allow you to not use silver weapons but instead weaker weapons which don't debuff your stats, and hitting is better than missing so kill is an important stat. If you hit 2x, for more total damage, but you have 70 hit, you'll very likely miss one of these attacks, while the guy who put 1 hit in but stronger or activating a skill will have a better time. And seeing last night a maxed out Hinoka with 31 skill, I died from laughing. It's 31% chance for 100% skill activation chance, 15% for astra and 7% for lethality, literally trash for a maxed unit, don't count on her to actually kill anyone in my castle battles filled with breakers, counter/countermagic etc. that render her useless (even more if she doesn't hit them). Not even speaking of Reina's negative skill growth (joke).

Sure, there's that. But other than that? You'd have to rely on getting lucky with interactions from others - interactions that could just as easily end up producing something else.

I don't rely on luck to get the first Subaki's pike which instantly gives Subaki and high skill units 8 damage without drawback. I rely on luck to boost it to 12 or 16 damage. Never played a Birthright/Rev playthrough where I don't drop a Subaki's pike before chapter 10 (between shining tiles, lottery and castle gifts from characters). I'm not hoping to get a levin sword, just a D-rank weapon with good chance to drop.

Duelist's Blow only works once per turn. Vantage isn't something I see as a good thing when you don't have the stuff to make it work, like Subaki does. Ryoma can make it work because he has range, and his stats allow him to possibly take out his attacker before they can attack. Subaki has no such luck - he cannot retaliate against ranged attackers unless you give him a Kodachi, which is weak and can't double, a Wakizashi, which can't double and leaves him open up close in addition to damaging his evade, a Levin Sword, which is magic, can't crit, and kills his evade, or one of two randomly found weapons with only 1 might.

So what you're saying is: don't give vantage to any unit without Raijinto/Xandersword/magic? Because every 1-2 physical weapon is unable to double and lowers your speed by 5, while every magic weapon lowers your avoid by 20. Subaki has enough bulk not to die from loosing 20 avoid (actually I don't count on his avoid for anything, just counting the damage he'll take) and his personal actually counters this effect as long as it lasts, while giving him the highest hit rate of any unit (except certain blow users on their turn).

You mean a proc skill that you cannot rely on? How many times must I say it?

I prefer having one and enjoying when it activates rather than not having any, that's why most of my offensive units have 1 proc skill. Not 2 or 3, just one, while the other skill slots complement the build I make for them.

>Mozu gets fed 5+ levels in her opening chapter
Sweet man
>Lucina can quickly pick up her own kills due to a powerful personal weapon and an effective weapon
Douchebag

Do you even realize how completely absurd you sound? And that you just contradicted yourself yet again??? How the hell does Lucina, who can quickly become self-sufficient, need more babying than freaking Mozu, who struggles to kill anything in her opening chapter because she's up against Faceless, which have good defense?? Also, I could just as easily give those items to someone else - someone who doesn't need all the spoonfeeding Mozu does - and get more out of it that way because I didn't have to bust my ass babysitting someone who starts out pretty much useless.

Because Lucina faces flying ennemies, mages, generals, cavaliers, great knights alltogether for her 1st map, she's not gonna kill many and sorry but her efficiency cost is far higher than Mozu's. At the end of her chapter, Mozu surpassed everyone I have while any other unit would barely gain stats by taking this exp (except if you give it to Hayato in BR), and she can use attack stance with 100% chance to dual attack in order to get exp, and faceless don't fly, don't come 5 at a time in this chapter, don't have pass, acrobat, don't heal themselves and don't have seal skills (in hard at least). Lucina faces literally waves of ennemies and she can't attack from 2 range so she can't poke from behind a wall of tanks to get exp without getting hit by 3 ennemies in the turn (1 on the front, 1 from 2 range, 1 from the river because there are like 8 flyers at the beginning of the chapter and 12+ flying reinforcements which also appear at the beginning of Ennemy phase).

Lucina doesn't have better growths than other units, joins too late to be useful and can't get a level 5 promoted skill because the only one she can have without taking a second seal is already in her skill pool from her stupid dad who can't pass anything more useful than a <10% proc rate skill for her use. Mozu doesn't cost you a mom and a dad to raise only not to start with so bad bases she get killed in 2 hits in her joining map filled with ennemies attacking from everywhere. Mozu has enough turns and low ennemy density to fight at her own rythm and feed your healers, while Lucina will forever face crowds of ennemies with several being higher level than her with dangerous damage output (35-40 damage for the strongest ennemies of Awakening early Valm arc, by the end of this arc they deal 40-45 damage and she has less than 15 def with 30-35 HP to begin with, meaning she dies fast for the rest of the game, so you have to babysit her until she has grown 15+ levels to become as good as her mom/dad when they gave birth to her, which means even Gregor beats her for most of the game).

Finally Mozu joins when you have less than 10 units, with a seal her stats at level 1 nearly match other units' stats level 6+ and her growths sky rocket so she absolutely renders them obsolete in less than 10 level ups. Mozu is like Donnel, except she has an easier time to level up in her joining map and can abuse attack stance if needed even though she should be fine without it to get maximal exp. + she can instantly reclass while he has to wait for 9 levels and doesn't even get a skill before level 15 villager (and DLC classes in Awakening need you to beat their level first, so you need to grind gold to get units like Ashnard, Lyon, Sephiran, Black Knight, Ike and anything good enough to beat dread fighter and bride DLCs, while Fates gives you 1 or 2 just by having several paths unlocked, and you can farm them from chapter 7 onward if you can beat Royale Royale which is doable from the beginning without spending any gold, and a little later you can beat Before Awakening for 2 other free DLC scrolls if you've got Awakening).

Mozu does better in most physical classes than nearly anyone else and isn't bound to one weapon type, she's free to grab any class you want to give her. She even has 30% magic growth as a diviner alongside 50% res growth, you can give her diviner, grab mag +2, go basara and beat anyone else's performance with the bolt naginata (or not far from anyone) while being fast, accurate and tanky enough to take a beating.

You mean a physical wall that doesn't have the stats to do much else - much less tank, in addition to having a crappy start to boot?? If I want a tank, I want one that can also kill or at least severely weaken whatever is idiot enough to attack them. Last I checked, Rinkah struggles to do that. Also, Kagero's strength caps so easily because she's in a class with a low strength cap. 

Every Rinkah I've seen around level 5-15 Oni has at least 25 strength and speed with 26-3X def and 18+ skill, and about 30 HP. Should I go fi=urther and add her personal skill to the 25 str as an oni chieftain? 29 damage without weapons. End of discussion. BTW, Subaki has only 5% less str growth than her, about the same base strength with only 1 level higher. He should be around 22-23 str at the same level she has 25.

Speak English, please. You tend to talk so much, yet say so little. Subaki's durability advantage over Hinoka probably isn't enough to matter. In addition, her personal skill is great, unlike Subaki's useless one.

It's inexistent at base. By the time you get her, he already has around +1 def over her while being 1 or 2 levels lower (thus getting more exp) and if he doesn't OHKO ennemies she OHKOs (if there's any barring diviners and maybe samurais), then he get even more exp from those kills because he fought 2x so he'll surpass her bulk/str even faster by levelling more. While he levels faster, he get more HP and more def than her, while maintaining decent speed to double on PP and decent res not to die from magic attacks (10 base res is more than any physical unit barring Ryoma and other sky knights, and ninjas who don't fly to "PICK THEIR FIGHTS" like you say and use weaker weapons still taking your words).

Effective weapons can be used by anyone. Also, for someone who seems to think skill is oh so important, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Kagero's skill isn't that great. And the fact that she's fragile. Oh, and bases wise, her speed is rather unimpressive - she starts at 12, which Kaze started at.... at level 3.

Kagero doesn't need great skill, she has high accuracy weapons and WTA or neutral WT position against every dodgy unit baring thieves who have low bulk anyway. She doesn't use proc skills either (lethality is plain useless), and saying everyone can use the effective weapons is ignoring the fact she has nearly as much avoid as Kaze while still having 8 more base str and 5 more max str, dealing 5 more damage to everyone than he'll ever deal with his ridiculous 15 str cap pre-promotion, 25 as a master ninja and 28 as a mechanist while she has 30 str as a master ninja and 33 as a mechanist (and she will actually cap it).

The Barb Shuriken is a pathetic weapon with only 4 might.

In Kaze's hands, the bard shuriken is a pathetic weapon with 4 MT. In kagero's hands, It's a wonderful weapon with the ability to let her deal 4x more damage while she actually deals damage.

Dread Fighter is DLC, and you only get two at most - what if I used those two Dread Scrolls on someone else???

Because Kagero and Kaze both enjoy being in a good shuriken class and ninja sucks hard because it has 10% less strength growth than DF, while having 0 anti magic skill so they only rely on their base res to fight magic weapons, which can fail them on level ups and let ennemies with Mjolnir/Fimbulvetr/ B/A rank weapons deal very dangerous amounts of damage if they get hit. And having a low strength cap for assassination classes is like using a poison which only makes the victim go to the WC.

It's called "pick and choose your fights", genius. I know my units' limits and try not to have them take on more than they can handle. That's what it means to be a strategist. I'm okay with exposing my ninjas to mages, because they were tailor-made to trump mages. I am NOT okay with exposing them to archers or something like that unless I'm sure they won't die.  Also, when you mean Tellius's "good" form changers, you mean the ones that were helpless before transforming?

When your units can take a beating, they can pick more fights, thus their effectiveness on the battlefield is superior. If Subaki doesn't need naginata guard, then he can use more powerful weapons and kill things or weaken them seriously for another unit to finish them. If Rinkah doesn't need more defense, she can go all out with high damage weapons and actually kill things with her decent speed (on the long run), decent attack which can be better if you grab some offensive passive skills which is the subject of the topic, making her the most dangerous mixed attacker with hulking def. Meanwhile Hinoka get killed in 1 arrow without naginata guard, and doesn't tank too well at any stage of the game against higher numbered physical units.

PoR form changers had hulking base stats with good growths, even untransformed they were good meatshields with insane HP. Radiant Dawn allowed them to hit even untransformed and gain much more exp from it, allowing you to raise them faster than 3% exp per kill, and transformed they ripped Beorcs appart without taking a single point of damage (except tigers if mages hit them but tigers have much more movement and OHKO mages except Sephiran). Using strategy you could also manage their transformation bar by abusing the transforming/untransforming mechanics and gain exp as well as beating ennemies. That was actual strat, managing your unit's ability to fight, like what the exhaustion system should have been in SOV.

What the fuck does Kaden have to do with this? This is not Silas vs Kaden, last I checked. Also, Kaden is fragile physically, and his weapon doesn't help with that; in fact, it HURTS him, since he loses defense.

Kaden doesn't need high def because he faces the physical units he can easily kill, and against magic he waits for all mages to do nothing then slaughters them. Unlike Kaze, he has good strength, HP and avoid from the beginning, and he can kill things for the whole game, while Kaze fails at killing 80% of the ennemy types. He joins totally usable and can even damage Garon with a little help, which Kaze can never hope to do. I even killed Garon with him in phoenix (sure not the best example but I did it)

It isn't like Hana had usable 1-2 range as a samurai anyway. And she'd need supports to become a ninja, so what's your point? Also, i don't really see 1-2 range as much of a point in Kagero's favour when she's fragile and having her try to make use of it on enemy phase will likely get her killed.

Hana ninja would be as violent as Kagero with better skill and maybe HP, very similar strength and higher luck.

Why the hell are you emphasizing skill again??? Effie uses more accurate weapons than Arthur, last I checked. Also, it doesn't matter how good your growths are when you cannot be relied on to kill enemies and thus level up. Sure, he has high HP, but that's to be expected since he's a fighter, and HP is one of the two strong points fighters have. As for using Effie as a backpack for Arthur, I'll take that to mean you're okay with sacrificing a superior unit for the sake of a third-rate one. And the irony is that it's better off the other way around - he's used as HER backpack. Also, he does poorly against magic anyway because axes are weak against tomes on the weapon triangle. Once again, she uses more accurate weapons than he does - his 1 skill lead ain't nearly enough to make that up, especially with his non-existent luck stat. If she's struggling to hit enemies, what the hell does that say of Arthur, who uses less accurate weapons??? Nothing good, that's for sure.. With regard to seal speed, you think Arthur's gonna do much better when he'd also be getting doubled by everything, and taking more damage to boot? Also, bringing up personality doesn't help you one bit - sure, Arthur's funny, but that does not change the fact that he's a very risky, and very bad, unit that I'm better off avoiding like the plague.

Arthur was used in several PMU by several players, and mostly as a cavalier, and he was MVP for more than 1 of them. He can take a beating and beat them back.

So your response to a strategy failing is to try it again and again? That's the very definition of being insane, which is NOT a good strategic quality. If I'm going to do something risky, I at least make sure I have a back up plan in case it doesn't work out. And in this case, it's the worse unit that constantly makes me worry about restarting. This is a STRATEGY game, in case you forgot, and there's nothing strategic about using a unit that constantly forces you to play Russian roulette every time he sees combat.

98% chance is enough to try again, and if that didn't troll me it would have been a success from the 1st attempt.

Very funny, because Fates is much nicer to armors than all those other games the units you mentioned are from, especially Binding Blade, which is pretty much the worst game to be an armored unit in besides Genealogy of the Holy War.

But Fates screws armors by negating their def.

 

[starburst]

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

At the end of her chapter, Mozu surpassed everyone I have while any other unit would barely gain stats by taking this exp (except if you give it to Hayato in BR), and she can use attack stance with 100% chance to dual attack in order to get exp, and faceless don't fly, don't come 5 at a time in this chapter, don't have pass, acrobat, don't heal themselves and don't have seal skills (in hard at least) [...]

Finally Mozu joins when you have less than 10 units, with a seal her stats at level 1 nearly match other units' stats level 6+ and her growths sky rocket so she absolutely renders them obsolete in less than 10 level ups [...]

Mozu does better in most physical classes than nearly anyone else and isn't bound to one weapon type, she's free to grab any class you want to give her. She even has 30% magic growth as a diviner alongside 50% res growth, you can give her diviner, grab mag +2, go basara and beat anyone else's performance with the bolt naginata (or not far from anyone) while being fast, accurate and tanky enough to take a beating [...]

So, you opened Mozu's Box. Good luck with that, mate.

Immediately after Chapter 7 in Conquest, it takes under fifteen minutes (her own chapter) for Mozu to get to Level 8-9 and have better statistics than any other member in the party, allowing her to one-round any enemy bar the boss in Chapters 8 and 9. This is 100 % reproducible. And she simply snowballs from there. Yet he will somehow deny this through some convoluted argument based purely on his very particular interpretation of the game's basics.
As I said, good luck.

[mangasdeouf]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

So, you opened Mozu's Box. Good luck with that, mate.

Immediately after Chapter 7 in Conquest, it takes under fifteen minutes (her own chapter) for Mozu to get to Level 8-9 and have better statistics than any other member in the party, allowing her to one-round any enemy bar the boss in Chapters 8 and 9. This is 100 % reproducible. And she simply snowballs from there. Yet he will somehow deny this through some convoluted argument based purely on his very particular interpretation of the game's basics.
As I said, good luck.

Wow! At the beginning I thought you'd deny it but in fact you're supporting my argument! Thank you, I feel less lonely now!

And I used my Great Lord seal on her twice, well she had Effie's defense with little lower strength, while reaching the 20s in skill and speed as well as luck around level 12-14, alongside being close to 30 HP. Simply having your Reina's offense level with 12 more hit rate or something like that, much better defensive stats and no weakness to bows while being under level 15 and not being considered promoted even though it's technically a promoted class stats-wise. At Reina's level she would have around 26 spd, 20-22 str, 26-28 skill, 24+ luck, 20-ish def, 14+ res, 33+ HP I suppose. Who else can have so good stats? Keaton and Velouria maybe, apart from the res part...that's it.

For Rinkah, she can go any offensive class as long as it has 15/20% str or magic growth she'll do well in it thanks to fiery blood, and the more speed it has the best she will do, keeping a high defense thanks to her personal growth and 3 personal base def if I'm right (class 7 personal 3 total 10).

Now I want to do a funny run with Witch Mozu having 5+10+25=40 magic growth for fun with 45 hp , 50 str, 40 mag, 55 skl, , 75 spd, 60 lck, 45 def and 50 res. Perfect jack of all trades.

Edited September 1, 2019 by mangasdeouf

[starburst]

29 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

And I used my Great Lord seal on her twice, well she had Effie's defense with little lower strength, while reaching the 20s in skill and speed as well as luck around level 12-14, alongside being close to 30 HP.

Well, DLC classes are broken by design, and Mozu does not even need them. She is fine in her secondary class set.
Check some numbers on a couple of campaigns with Mozu as a Sniper. Multiple times MVP on Hard Conquest.

Want to break the game around Mozu? Let Mozu A+ Effie to become a Sniper or Kinshi. Then let Mozu bear Berserker Velouria. You now have three Delete Buttons.

[Shadow Mir]

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Not when she lacks in every single stat to do anything with it. Her only role is support, anything else will just get her killed or being bad compared with anyone else (in physical classes she's so bad past chapter 10 I don't even use her anymore, in magic classes she can't take a hit because her bases and growths are an abomination). I've even tried some breaker builds but even then she doesn't last long and her damage output is simply laughable (lower than Kaze XD).

Has it seriously never occurred to you to give her magic weapons (which you might be hard pressed to find a use for otherwise)?

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Building supports is favoring a unit? Then why do children exist? Don't you think sticking units like Charlotte and Rinkah to their respective heirs to the throne is also a major form of favoritism? Because that means these units never actually fight but still take a seat in your team, just for 1 unit to shine. This is complete favoritism, any decision implying giving something to someone rather than someone else is favoritism. Giving the speedwings to Xander is favoritism. Everyone does this, everyone does favoritism. The only difference is who you favor.

Still doesn't explain your half-assed - and inaccurate - comparison of Percy and Subaki, given the former is a completely different class, and as a child unit, how he turns out is dependent on his mother.

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I didn't tell anything like that, just that compared with past games (those with 2x skill for acc and Awakening with ultra forges and everyone having 40-70% growth everywhere but in res/magic) skill is more important, because weapons have drawbacks (you ca't use your silver sword 20 times in a row and call it a day), skill is useful for rolling more good RNG to hit, to proc skills which allow you to not use silver weapons but instead weaker weapons which don't debuff your stats, and hitting is better than missing so kill is an important stat. If you hit 2x, for more total damage, but you have 70 hit, you'll very likely miss one of these attacks, while the guy who put 1 hit in but stronger or activating a skill will have a better time. And seeing last night a maxed out Hinoka with 31 skill, I died from laughing. It's 31% chance for 100% skill activation chance, 15% for astra and 7% for lethality, literally trash for a maxed unit, don't count on her to actually kill anyone in my castle battles filled with breakers, counter/countermagic etc. that render her useless (even more if she doesn't hit them). Not even speaking of Reina's negative skill growth (joke).

If you want to talk about a game where skill is actually important, you should go talk about Binding Blade, where accuracy is at a premium due to most weapons being inaccurate and every boss is on a gate or throne.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I don't rely on luck to get the first Subaki's pike which instantly gives Subaki and high skill units 8 damage without drawback. I rely on luck to boost it to 12 or 16 damage. Never played a Birthright/Rev playthrough where I don't drop a Subaki's pike before chapter 10 (between shining tiles, lottery and castle gifts from characters). I'm not hoping to get a levin sword, just a D-rank weapon with good chance to drop.

That "good chance to drop" could just as easily end up not being one at all.

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

So what you're saying is: don't give vantage to any unit without Raijinto/Xandersword/magic? Because every 1-2 physical weapon is unable to double and lowers your speed by 5, while every magic weapon lowers your avoid by 20. Subaki has enough bulk not to die from loosing 20 avoid (actually I don't count on his avoid for anything, just counting the damage he'll take) and his personal actually counters this effect as long as it lasts, while giving him the highest hit rate of any unit (except certain blow users on their turn).

Vantage is not much help unless you can kill your attacker before they get the chance to attack. It's that simple.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I prefer having one and enjoying when it activates rather than not having any, that's why most of my offensive units have 1 proc skill. Not 2 or 3, just one, while the other skill slots complement the build I make for them.

I'm not saying not to have one. I'm saying not to rely on it. Sure, Astra can fill the shield gauge... If, and only if, the enemy manages to survive every hit, which I'm not willing to bank on between random critical and the low activation rate.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Because Lucina faces flying ennemies, mages, generals, cavaliers, great knights alltogether for her 1st map, she's not gonna kill many and sorry but her efficiency cost is far higher than Mozu's. At the end of her chapter, Mozu surpassed everyone I have while any other unit would barely gain stats by taking this exp (except if you give it to Hayato in BR), and she can use attack stance with 100% chance to dual attack in order to get exp, and faceless don't fly, don't come 5 at a time in this chapter, don't have pass, acrobat, don't heal themselves and don't have seal skills (in hard at least). Lucina faces literally waves of ennemies and she can't attack from 2 range so she can't poke from behind a wall of tanks to get exp without getting hit by 3 ennemies in the turn (1 on the front, 1 from 2 range, 1 from the river because there are like 8 flyers at the beginning of the chapter and 12+ flying reinforcements which also appear at the beginning of Ennemy phase).

Unfortunately for you, most of those enemies are hit for effective damage by Rapiers, which are really good when forged (in case you forgot, pegasus knights are classified as beast units in Awakening), and mages are easily killed by physical units. Try again. And the next chapter is more of the same.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Lucina doesn't have better growths than other units, joins too late to be useful and can't get a level 5 promoted skill because the only one she can have without taking a second seal is already in her skill pool from her stupid dad who can't pass anything more useful than a <10% proc rate skill for her use. Mozu doesn't cost you a mom and a dad to raise only not to start with so bad bases she get killed in 2 hits in her joining map filled with ennemies attacking from everywhere. Mozu has enough turns and low ennemy density to fight at her own rythm and feed your healers, while Lucina will forever face crowds of ennemies with several being higher level than her with dangerous damage output (35-40 damage for the strongest ennemies of Awakening early Valm arc, by the end of this arc they deal 40-45 damage and she has less than 15 def with 30-35 HP to begin with, meaning she dies fast for the rest of the game, so you have to babysit her until she has grown 15+ levels to become as good as her mom/dad when they gave birth to her, which means even Gregor beats her for most of the game).

In what universe does midgame constitute "joining too late to be useful"??? Because when I think of joining too late to be useful, I think of the likes of Izana in Conquest and Karel in Binding Blade. In other words, units that force me to drop a unit that I might have intended to use for the whole game just to slot in.

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Finally Mozu joins when you have less than 10 units, with a seal her stats at level 1 nearly match other units' stats level 6+ and her growths sky rocket so she absolutely renders them obsolete in less than 10 level ups. Mozu is like Donnel, except she has an easier time to level up in her joining map and can abuse attack stance if needed even though she should be fine without it to get maximal exp. + she can instantly reclass while he has to wait for 9 levels and doesn't even get a skill before level 15 villager (and DLC classes in Awakening need you to beat their level first, so you need to grind gold to get units like Ashnard, Lyon, Sephiran, Black Knight, Ike and anything good enough to beat dread fighter and bride DLCs, while Fates gives you 1 or 2 just by having several paths unlocked, and you can farm them from chapter 7 onward if you can beat Royale Royale which is doable from the beginning without spending any gold, and a little later you can beat Before Awakening for 2 other free DLC scrolls if you've got Awakening).

Comparing Mozu to Donnel just illustrates the problem with her. I'll admit that her situation is better than his thanks to being able to change her class immediately, but that doesn't change the fact that much like Donnel, I have to go out of my way to get her to a usable state. Why should I give her undue preference for the one heart seal that you can buy at that point when Corrin, Felicia, Jakob, etc. can also make great use of it? At any rate, I don't see any real need to class change Lucina, especially since her initial class is good for getting her caught up for reasons already stated. With regard to Royal Royale... Good luck winning. You are gonna need it. Before Awakening requires all of the NPC allies to survive if you want the seals when one is most likely going to get defeated due to artificial stupidity. Once again, lots of luck to you, because you will need it. Oh, and you can only get the seals once.

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Mozu does better in most physical classes than nearly anyone else and isn't bound to one weapon type, she's free to grab any class you want to give her. She even has 30% magic growth as a diviner alongside 50% res growth, you can give her diviner, grab mag +2, go basara and beat anyone else's performance with the bolt naginata (or not far from anyone) while being fast, accurate and tanky enough to take a beating.

Being bound to one weapon type isn't anything special when nearly all advanced classes have alternate weapon options. Anyway, having Mozu get the Diviner class tree requires her to marry Hayato, who has the same problem that she does in Birthright. I also see Basara Mozu has a half-assed gimmick - the number of situations where magic would come in handy for a physically inclined unit are very, very low.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Every Rinkah I've seen around level 5-15 Oni has at least 25 strength and speed with 26-3X def and 18+ skill, and about 30 HP. Should I go fi=urther and add her personal skill to the 25 str as an oni chieftain? 29 damage without weapons. End of discussion. BTW, Subaki has only 5% less str growth than her, about the same base strength with only 1 level higher. He should be around 22-23 str at the same level she has 25.

Way to ignore Rinkah's rocky start. Why in the name of Nemesis should I bother with her when an HP boon Corrin can do her job better than her without the hurdles that inhibit Rinkah's effectiveness?

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

It's inexistent at base. By the time you get her, he already has around +1 def over her while being 1 or 2 levels lower (thus getting more exp) and if he doesn't OHKO ennemies she OHKOs (if there's any barring diviners and maybe samurais), then he get even more exp from those kills because he fought 2x so he'll surpass her bulk/str even faster by levelling more. While he levels faster, he get more HP and more def than her, while maintaining decent speed to double on PP and decent res not to die from magic attacks (10 base res is more than any physical unit barring Ryoma and other sky knights, and ninjas who don't fly to "PICK THEIR FIGHTS" like you say and use weaker weapons still taking your words).

Prove to me that Subaki's marginal defensive advantage actually allows him to survive stuff that Hinoka cannot. Anyway, from a certain point of view, Subaki's offensive woes are a disadvantage because it means I constantly need to have other units clean up his mess. In a game with a lot of rout objectives, that isn't exactly desirable, now is it?

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Kagero doesn't need great skill, she has high accuracy weapons and WTA or neutral WT position against every dodgy unit baring thieves who have low bulk anyway. She doesn't use proc skills either (lethality is plain useless), and saying everyone can use the effective weapons is ignoring the fact she has nearly as much avoid as Kaze while still having 8 more base str and 5 more max str, dealing 5 more damage to everyone than he'll ever deal with his ridiculous 15 str cap pre-promotion, 25 as a master ninja and 28 as a mechanist while she has 30 str as a master ninja and 33 as a mechanist (and she will actually cap it).

Why should I care that Kagero can easily cap strength? Because it probably won't be relevant for very long, if at all.

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

In Kaze's hands, the bard shuriken is a pathetic weapon with 4 MT. In kagero's hands, It's a wonderful weapon with the ability to let her deal 4x more damage while she actually deals damage.

No. I'd still say it's terrible in Kagero's hands - there's no situation where gambling on the Barb Shuriken will be a better option than using steel or a forged iron.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Because Kagero and Kaze both enjoy being in a good shuriken class and ninja sucks hard because it has 10% less strength growth than DF, while having 0 anti magic skill so they only rely on their base res to fight magic weapons, which can fail them on level ups and let ennemies with Mjolnir/Fimbulvetr/ B/A rank weapons deal very dangerous amounts of damage if they get hit. And having a low strength cap for assassination classes is like using a poison which only makes the victim go to the WC.

Here's the problem: you can only get two Dread Scrolls. And given that they can make just about any unit overpowered, there's a very real possibility that neither of them gets it. What then? Try to win the massively luck-based Royal Royale with a Hoshidan team (knowing that winning with a Nohrian team gets an Ebon Wing instead)?

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

When your units can take a beating, they can pick more fights, thus their effectiveness on the battlefield is superior. If Subaki doesn't need naginata guard, then he can use more powerful weapons and kill things or weaken them seriously for another unit to finish them. If Rinkah doesn't need more defense, she can go all out with high damage weapons and actually kill things with her decent speed (on the long run), decent attack which can be better if you grab some offensive passive skills which is the subject of the topic, making her the most dangerous mixed attacker with hulking def. Meanwhile Hinoka get killed in 1 arrow without naginata guard, and doesn't tank too well at any stage of the game against higher numbered physical units.

Subaki would likely die in one shot without the Guard Naginata too. Just saying. Anyway, when I think about powerful weapons, I generally think silver, which is not ideal to be relying on because they debuff you when attacking with them. And that's ignoring the crit evade drop that likely leaves you vulnerable to random critical hits. The S rank weapons are impractical for much the same reason. Also, I find it hard to rely on Rinkah as a mixed attacker because both her strength and magic are unlikely to be high.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

PoR form changers had hulking base stats with good growths, even untransformed they were good meatshields with insane HP. Radiant Dawn allowed them to hit even untransformed and gain much more exp from it, allowing you to raise them faster than 3% exp per kill, and transformed they ripped Beorcs appart without taking a single point of damage (except tigers if mages hit them but tigers have much more movement and OHKO mages except Sephiran). Using strategy you could also manage their transformation bar by abusing the transforming/untransforming mechanics and gain exp as well as beating ennemies. That was actual strat, managing your unit's ability to fight, like what the exhaustion system should have been in SOV.

The problem is, laguz have to transform first, which is not cool when most combat units don't force the player to put up with a time period where they're useless, and really bad considering the Fire Emblem series' use of permanent death. It's even worse in Radiant Dawn because laguz are easy kills untransformed, in addition to generally being slow to improve. The result is that most non-royal laguz are more trouble to work with than they're worth (and definitely cannot rip apart beorc units without taking a single point of damage), which, considering one of the major themes in the Tellius saga is racism, is an odd miss. The only laguz that were worth using were the purposefully overpowered royals, who, with the exception of Nailah, only saw playtime in part 4. Yeah, no. I would say this game's shifters were way better than the laguz were.

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Kaden doesn't need high def because he faces the physical units he can easily kill, and against magic he waits for all mages to do nothing then slaughters them. Unlike Kaze, he has good strength, HP and avoid from the beginning, and he can kill things for the whole game, while Kaze fails at killing 80% of the ennemy types. He joins totally usable and can even damage Garon with a little help, which Kaze can never hope to do. I even killed Garon with him in phoenix (sure not the best example but I did it)

Yeah, let's go and ignore that Kaden's join chapter is the first one in Birthright where you deal with promoted units - those Great Knights are a very unfavorable matchup for him... The comparison with Kaze falls flat since the latter is a support unit.

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Hana ninja would be as violent as Kagero with better skill and maybe HP, very similar strength and higher luck.

I'm not sure I consider that comparison a good one...

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Arthur was used in several PMU by several players, and mostly as a cavalier, and he was MVP for more than 1 of them. He can take a beating and beat them back.

This proves nothing, since I could just as easily find PMUs where Effie put in work.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

98% chance is enough to try again, and if that didn't troll me it would have been a success from the 1st attempt.

Still, it's no excuse to get complacent. A good tactician knows to expect the unexpected.

On 9/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, mangasdeouf said:

But Fates screws armors by negating their def.

Fates screws dodgetanks even harder, thanks to stuff like Certain Blow and post-battle damage skills. 

[mangasdeouf]

13 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Has it seriously never occurred to you to give her magic weapons (which you might be hard pressed to find a use for otherwise)?

By the time you get any (without counting the 2000+ or even higher visit/battle points to get them from) without getting a 0.1% chance from the level 1 lottery (C rank weapons never dropped once for me even with level 2 lottery), Felicia is already surpassed by every other magic unit in the game and every shuriken user. In Hoshido Saizo is a better user of the flame shuriken since he can effectively use the 1-2 range with his average def. Felicia can't take a hit, her skills aren't anything special for her like I told you I've exploited all of her kit and she was still deceiving with 2 dragon herbs.

Still doesn't explain your half-assed - and inaccurate - comparison of Percy and Subaki, given the former is a completely different class, and as a child unit, how he turns out is dependent on his mother.

If you want to use Percy in the main game, he doesn't have 15 different mothers to choose from. Mainly Effie, Elise, Felicia and Nyx, the latest would be Selena, Beruka and Camilla. Everyone else joins past chapter 11, which means children are out of the picture.

If you want to talk about a game where skill is actually important, you should go talk about Binding Blade, where accuracy is at a premium due to most weapons being inaccurate and every boss is on a gate or throne.

Yes a totally unbalanced game where 80% of the cast was barely usable, the maps were too big for anything not mounted/flying to be enjoyable, the ennemies had strong points while not growing for a while so your units gain low exp before a stat bump and wyverns were spawned at the beginning of ennemy phase, where lances had less accuracy than fe7-8 axes and axes had even less, where there are so many chapters that I get bored before midgame, where you can buy only during chapters, thus breaking the rythm, as well as having trash being sold in armories for the 1st 10 chapters...yeah, let's compare a 2015 game that had a game to adjust from  with a game that was the 1st one on an older console with less possibilities, first on a portable device, trying to do things differently from the last saga and bringing new elements on the table.

That "good chance to drop" could just as easily end up not being one at all.

It's still a good chance to drop. It will appear more likely than magic weapons or killer weapons or dual weapons. It has the same drop rate as iron.

Vantage is not much help unless you can kill your attacker before they get the chance to attack. It's that simple.

Without vantage you don't have any chance to kill them before they attack, with vantage you have more than 0% chance to kill them first. I prefer >0% chance and crit + skill ativations give me that >0% chance.

I'm not saying not to have one. I'm saying not to rely on it. Sure, Astra can fill the shield gauge... If, and only if, the enemy manages to survive every hit, which I'm not willing to bank on between random critical and the low activation rate.

Even if it refills 2 shield bars, it's still 1 more than a normal attack.

Unfortunately for you, most of those enemies are hit for effective damage by Rapiers, which are really good when forged (in case you forgot, pegasus knights are classified as beast units in Awakening), and mages are easily killed by physical units. Try again. And the next chapter is more of the same.

It doesn't change the fact that ennemies come by packs and can easily kill an underlevelled unit by flanking, attacking from 1 and 2 range and from the water for pegasi (more than one of them is equipped with a spear, cutting Lucina's health by 1/3rd at least with WTA, while any magic unit can do the same with D/C weapons and at this point they wield C/B weapons, dealing more like 1/2 of her HP in one hit, Lucina is a pain in the ass to get going in no grind, that's all, and having no 1-2 range access in her base class doesn't help when you have Tharja, Henry, Gregor, Vaike, Ricken, Maribelle, Lissa, Glasses and Zelcher who could have 1-2 range weapons in their base classlin by the time you get Lucina, they could even have their level 5 promoted skill which would be Vengeance/slow burn/Sol/Rally Strength/Rally Magic/slow burn/Rally Res/rally luck/Quick Burn/Pizza-Yolo).

In what universe does midgame constitute "joining too late to be useful"??? Because when I think of joining too late to be useful, I think of the likes of Izana in Conquest and Karel in Binding Blade. In other words, units that force me to drop a unit that I might have intended to use for the whole game just to slot in.

Except Izana has base stats, he's instantly usable and has staff bot utility even if you don't bring him to fight (yes everyone has staff utility in BR) and he has enough base stats everywhere to be relevant (probably more than Reina by that point since she misses 1 of 3 attacks as an offensive 0 defense unit), while Karel can just fill your party with a better than Ryoma syndrome except he doesn't have a hacker sword. He's there for a short amount of time, but he's better than most of your units and he beats your other swordmaster in everything or close to it.

Comparing Mozu to Donnel just illustrates the problem with her. I'll admit that her situation is better than his thanks to being able to change her class immediately, but that doesn't change the fact that much like Donnel, I have to go out of my way to get her to a usable state. Why should I give her undue preference for the one heart seal that you can buy at that point when Corrin, Felicia, Jakob, etc. can also make great use of it? At any rate, I don't see any real need to class change Lucina, especially since her initial class is good for getting her caught up for reasons already stated. With regard to Royal Royale... Good luck winning. You are gonna need it. Before Awakening requires all of the NPC allies to survive if you want the seals when one is most likely going to get defeated due to artificial stupidity. Once again, lots of luck to you, because you will need it. Oh, and you can only get the seals once.

Why would you give a seal to a unit who uses it worse than Mozu? Because it's exactly what you're doing by giving the seal to anyone else. Personnally I farm gold and visit castles to grab more seals but with only the main game, no battle outside Before Awakening and Mozu's Paralogue, I'd give the 1st seal to Mozu (any physical seal, be it DLC, route bonus or anything else) because she's the best user for it. Why would you give it to a unit that doesn't do anything special when you could give it to a unit that surpasses 90% of the cast with it (barring the hackprinces who have free 1-2 range and insane base stats + base level, not suffering Duessel's drawbacks like having lower stats than their level even though Duessel's stats are awesome, Kyle and Gilliam would be better at his level, while Ryoma has +4 str, spd and +10 avoid/dodge to make up for his little under average speed and his good but not Effie tier strength, while Xander barely takes physical damage for a good portion of the game and can use dual katana to slaughter the ninjas)?

The only competition Mozu has for best overall unit when you invest a little into them is Azama, since his growths and bases are so good and in grandmaster he's so good it's not even funny.

Being bound to one weapon type isn't anything special when nearly all advanced classes have alternate weapon options. Anyway, having Mozu get the Diviner class tree requires her to marry Hayato, who has the same problem that she does in Birthright. I also see Basara Mozu has a half-assed gimmick - the number of situations where magic would come in handy for a physically inclined unit are very, very low.

Even then she's still very usable (I'm using lv 1-16 witch> 16-20 cavalier Mozu and will put her in dark knight after promotion, she's got 10 magic of her own in cavalier with 12 def and 10 res, 18 speed at level 17, with free tonics dropping 2 or 3x a chapter on average, elbow room, 15 str, 25 hp, while her class was glass cannon for 15 level ups, well the 10 first level ups didn't give me much def/res I rolled unlucky RNG like every unit except Jakob who's never been so blessed than on this file with 22 spd lv 19, 10 mag 17 str 20 skl 28 HP, 12 def 14 res (got him Trample and Shurikenfaire from toher castles he's a monster even with Kagero's Kunai with 1 MT 20 avoid), she's still strong and rocked with calamity gate/nosferatu. DK will patch all of her mediocre stats especially defense-wise and shadowgift will let her nosferatank in DK, while Calamity gate will let her ignore completely beast killers.

Way to ignore Rinkah's rocky start. Why in the name of Nemesis should I bother with her when an HP boon Corrin can do her job better than her without the hurdles that inhibit Rinkah's effectiveness?

Because Corrin can be at 1 place at a time (unless you go kamikaze with duplicate) so you need another tank for the chapters 7-8-early 9, and Rinkah tanks as well if not better than Silas, can have a C support with Kaze by the time Silas joins, and then hop on Silas back for movement and switch when needed for combat, alternating your tank to have more effective durability (2 hp bars). Rinkah should grow faster than Silas and more bulky physically speaking, and then you can get her elbow room so she beats Silas' attack and has 7 mixed damage without str/mag.

Prove to me that Subaki's marginal defensive advantage actually allows him to survive stuff that Hinoka cannot. Anyway, from a certain point of view, Subaki's offensive woes are a disadvantage because it means I constantly need to have other units clean up his mess. In a game with a lot of rout objectives, that isn't exactly desirable, now is it?

Subaki never dies in 1 arrow. Hinoka did, several times in a row because she missed a 98% chance to kill that Subaki would've made a 100% chance thanks to his skill. He wouldn't even have had to take that arrow.

Why should I care that Kagero can easily cap strength? Because it probably won't be relevant for very long, if at all.

Sure, 7 levels is very long when you start at 10 with poison strike already in, 75% str growth, 5 points away from cap, already as high as Kaze's str cap from the beginning. Meanwhile Kaze level 10 has what, 11 str? That's my CQ lv 12 Kaze's str, 11. My Jakob is far better than my Kaze, while having 3 more speed (high enough for a level 19 Jakob to double any non-Ryoma ennemy). Actually with his skills I got from castles he even dealt 17 damage to chap 12 Ryoma before debuffing him to let Mozu lower him to 5 HP and Camilla finish him with her thunder tome, at turn 11.

No. I'd still say it's terrible in Kagero's hands - there's no situation where gambling on the Barb Shuriken will be a better option than using steel or a forged iron.

Sure. Go use a shuriken that lowers her speed before she's got enough to secure steel doubling, you're smart. Meanwhile she can deal 3.5 times more with barb than with steel and secure doubling. It's not CQ/hard/lunatic rev, not everyone has 12 def minimum in BR and you don't face many promoted ennemies before long.

Here's the problem: you can only get two Dread Scrolls. And given that they can make just about any unit overpowered, there's a very real possibility that neither of them gets it. What then? Try to win the massively luck-based Royal Royale with a Hoshidan team (knowing that winning with a Nohrian team gets an Ebon Wing instead)?

You're pushing Kaze and downvoting Kagero for reasons that go against your own logic. Please explain how it's possible. Kaze's only use is to debuff, and even Felicia can do that at level 1. I don't need Kaze, meanwhile Kagero can do somthing useful, like killing things, and DF helps them kill by giving them base strength much higher than LOLninja and higher cap for Kagero not to be blocked at 20 until promotion. Why give it to her? Because everyone except Kaze, Jakob, Felicia, Kagero and Saizo is E in shurikens, while they're D and Kagero/saizo are C at base, immediately able to use dual, armor killing, barb and flame shuriken, Saizo has well spread growths, Kagero is a glass cannon, Kaze is only salvageable by giving hi a seal anyway, and Felicia/Jakob get normal exp gain if you put them in DLC classes, cancelling the whole point of being promoted with unpromoted exp gains.

Subaki would likely die in one shot without the Guard Naginata too. Just saying. Anyway, when I think about powerful weapons, I generally think silver, which is not ideal to be relying on because they debuff you when attacking with them. And that's ignoring the crit evade drop that likely leaves you vulnerable to random critical hits. The S rank weapons are impractical for much the same reason. Also, I find it hard to rely on Rinkah as a mixed attacker because both her strength and magic are unlikely to be high.

Powerful weapons aren't only silver. There are many weapons we don't remember because they were introduced in Fates, and many of them have niches. The advantage of using Subaki is that he can hit with every single weapon without caring of their accuracy, at least he's much more prone to hit with them than most of the other lance wielding units. And no, he doesn't die in 1 arrow, he survives with 2-5 HP depending on his level ups, which means he can even draw an archer to him and kill it, while Hinoka can't get rid of guard naginata for the whole game unless you exclusively use her to kill mages, even then she needs guard naginata to not take damage from the ones wielding C/B/A tomes.

The problem is, laguz have to transform first, which is not cool when most combat units don't force the player to put up with a time period where they're useless, and really bad considering the Fire Emblem series' use of permanent death. It's even worse in Radiant Dawn because laguz are easy kills untransformed, in addition to generally being slow to improve. The result is that most non-royal laguz are more trouble to work with than they're worth (and definitely cannot rip apart beorc units without taking a single point of damage), which, considering one of the major themes in the Tellius saga is racism, is an odd miss. The only laguz that were worth using were the purposefully overpowered royals, who, with the exception of Nailah, only saw playtime in part 4. Yeah, no. I would say this game's shifters were way better than the laguz were.

Except untransformed Laguz can still tank more than your sowrdies because their def is nearly equal to theirs while they have 10-20 more HP, and that's for cats, tigers have 20-30 more hp at base than your swordies alongside 2-4 more base def than playable swordmasters. They get the same exp as unpromoted units around level 10-15 when untransformed, helping them cap stats much faster than Beorcs, and they have weapon ranks that allow them to have 0 weight 16-18 damage weapons with infinite durability, and they can draw an ennemy at them, who will replenish their transformation bar while giving exp then they one shoot that ennemy (2 shoot for trained cats) and go on a slaughter for 2-3 turns where your other units would need a healer behind them for every 2 ennemies they fight. Tigers have average 26 def transformed at base or after 1 level up, your tier 2 beorcs have around 12-18 def except generals, lv 16+ Aran and Haar who are closer to 20-25. That's for tigers AT BASE. They have more than 40% def growth, more than 100% hp growth and 22/44 def cap with 75 hp cap and 23/46 str cap, only their speed is limited with 15/30 cap which stays good enough for more than half of the game and they still tank much better than beorcs while having good mobility even inside where mounted units loose 2 movement, rendering their mount useless and even making it a handicap because they can't hop on balconies and they have beast killer weakness while being far less tanky.

Yeah, let's go and ignore that Kaden's join chapter is the first one in Birthright where you deal with promoted units - those Great Knights are a very unfavorable matchup for him... The comparison with Kaze falls flat since the latter is a support unit.

Actually he can tank the GK in 1v1 and even kill him in 2 rounds thanks to beast bane, but well, you can't know it if you don't play him. He has 31 base damage on the GK without pair up bonus or tonics, the GK has around 20-22 def, that's 9-11 damage x2. He 3/4HKOs the GK, which not many of your units can do at that time with physical weapons. He barely takes damage from mages while ORKOing them at base with enough base speed to do it for half of the game as long as he has a str tonic or str pair up for midgame, and he has 50% str growth so he can continue to do it for long. His base HP is the same as Camilla, but he has 6 levels before forced promotion and promotion bonuses after that, so he owns her in HP and res, speed while nearly matching her strength on average (he only lacks the str +2 from wyvern to have more str than her at level 20/1 while having around 5 HP more). Better, he can get a beastrune in chapter 15 (3 chapters after he joins), for +4 def +5 res, which is better than the dragonstone bonuses and doesn't make him unable to double, at the ridiculous cost of 2 points of skill and 1 point of speed for 80% accuracy on a 9 damage weapon. He can also get the beast stone + in chapter 22, with 12 damage, 90% acc, 5% crit and 10% avoid, which gives him 6 skl 8 spd at the cost of 5 def 3 res, unlike silver weapons is sacrifices defense for attack, while silver...sacrifices attack for instant burst and doesn't give avoid.

I'm not sure I consider that comparison a good one...

Same role, just Hana is more accurate and has more dodge/avoid.

This proves nothing, since I could just as easily find PMUs where Effie put in work.

Except Effie still has shit for personal classes, while Arthur's classes are all good.

Still, it's no excuse to get complacent. A good tactician knows to expect the unexpected.

Yes, by using units who have more chances of doing what they're supposed to do, in which case Subaki's hit rates being higher than Hinoka mean I can rely on him more to do what I want him to do than I can with her. I don't expect him to dodge hits, meanwhile I would have to for Hinoka. I expect both of them to hit their attacks, but Subaki hits more often than Hinoka, so he is more practical for 90%+ success rate tactics while she is more like 80%+, leaving 10% more chance to succeed my tactics when I rely on Subaki than when I rely on Hinoka. BTW she was killed in normal difficulty in 1 arrow in the middle platform of the opera, while Subaki survives 1 arrow in hard difficulty, meaning she's ridiculously less tanky than he becomes in a few level ups while she stays behind with 35% def, 1 every 3 levels with 3 levels less to grow while he has 45%, close to 1 point per 2 levels, with 3 more level ups available than her, low level enough for it to count exp gain-wise.

Fates screws dodgetanks even harder, thanks to stuff like Certain Blow and post-battle damage skills.

I didn't say otherwise. Just knights' only role is to have high def and seal def basically screws the only thing they're good at. Meanwhile pre-seals games let knights do the physical tanking better than anyone else, FE8 generals having 13 base def at level -20 with 23% growth implying 17.6 def expected, that's Duessel's base def and he's level 10 in Eirika's route. Generic generals have your tankiest unit's def at base 9 levels lower than him. And you couldn't reduce their def just by fighting them. Gatrie and Brom were walls, Barth and Oswin and Hector were walls. They feared magic but physical damage was negated by them. Now knights get sealed and ganged at by 5 ennemies using attack stance to deal even more damage on them. Now you have hexing rod that halves HP. Before Wary Fighter, knights/generals fear double attacks, because they damage them, a thing that shouldn't be acceptable for a wall. And oni savages have nearly as much def while not having armor weakness and being faster.

 

Conclusion : Let's agree to disagree because I'm the only one using numbers and any kind of real argument, while you're just saying no to everything I write while I bring proof for several arguments (like growth rates, base stats and averages), so it's not a debate, it's a whining.

I think you should try to go other ways than what you know, play differently for once, you could enjoy it. When arguing with you I feel like I'm trying to convince a climate changer denier that the climate is changing for worse with scientifical proof and logic, while they just say "no, no, evrything's fine, we will continue to use oil and gas, to put water in plastic bottles, to use coal and nuclear as energy sources and we will drive our 4 wheels all day long while eating fish or meat for each and every meal from breakfast to dinner and raise billions of animals for our annual food supply". It's like sweeping when there's 130 km/h wind.

 

[Shadow Mir]

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

By the time you get any (without counting the 2000+ or even higher visit/battle points to get them from) without getting a 0.1% chance from the level 1 lottery (C rank weapons never dropped once for me even with level 2 lottery), Felicia is already surpassed by every other magic unit in the game and every shuriken user. In Hoshido Saizo is a better user of the flame shuriken since he can effectively use the 1-2 range with his average def. Felicia can't take a hit, her skills aren't anything special for her like I told you I've exploited all of her kit and she was still deceiving with 2 dragon herbs.

To say that Felicia is outclassed by every other magic unit is laughable - Orochi is really slow, Hayato comes underleveled in Birthright and has accuracy issues, Rhajat requires marrying Hayato and also suffers from accuracy problems, Izana comes late, has a personal skill that hinders my team, and is unusable in Revelation, Odin is a crapshoot, and Nyx is insufferably inaccurate. How many of these would YOU argue are better than Felicia??? My answer is none of them.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

If you want to use Percy in the main game, he doesn't have 15 different mothers to choose from. Mainly Effie, Elise, Felicia and Nyx, the latest would be Selena, Beruka and Camilla. Everyone else joins past chapter 11, which means children are out of the picture.

Point taken, but comparing Percy to Subaki is foolish in the first place, as they're different classes.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

It's still a good chance to drop. It will appear more likely than magic weapons or killer weapons or dual weapons. It has the same drop rate as iron.

Dtop from where? Museum Melee?

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Without vantage you don't have any chance to kill them before they attack, with vantage you have more than 0% chance to kill them first. I prefer >0% chance and crit + skill ativations give me that >0% chance.

It probably won't be enough to justify being that low in the first place (again, unless you're Ryoma, who benefits from exclusive factors).

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Even if it refills 2 shield bars, it's still 1 more than a normal attack.

Which would be fine, except it's not reliable enough.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

It doesn't change the fact that ennemies come by packs and can easily kill an underlevelled unit by flanking, attacking from 1 and 2 range and from the water for pegasi (more than one of them is equipped with a spear, cutting Lucina's health by 1/3rd at least with WTA, while any magic unit can do the same with D/C weapons and at this point they wield C/B weapons, dealing more like 1/2 of her HP in one hit, Lucina is a pain in the ass to get going in no grind, that's all, and having no 1-2 range access in her base class doesn't help when you have Tharja, Henry, Gregor, Vaike, Ricken, Maribelle, Lissa, Glasses and Zelcher who could have 1-2 range weapons in their base classlin by the time you get Lucina, they could even have their level 5 promoted skill which would be Vengeance/slow burn/Sol/Rally Strength/Rally Magic/slow burn/Rally Res/rally luck/Quick Burn/Pizza-Yolo).

Are you talking about Lunatic? If so, then I would imagine most of those units you mentioned would also be approaching unusable territory. Also, Sol and Slow Burn suck, and Mozu would be even more screwed if she got flanked.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Except Izana has base stats, he's instantly usable and has staff bot utility even if you don't bring him to fight (yes everyone has staff utility in BR) and he has enough base stats everywhere to be relevant (probably more than Reina by that point since she misses 1 of 3 attacks as an offensive 0 defense unit), while Karel can just fill your party with a better than Ryoma syndrome except he doesn't have a hacker sword. He's there for a short amount of time, but he's better than most of your units and he beats your other swordmaster in everything or close to it.

Unfortunately, Karel is redundant - and one of the units that outclasses him (Fir) is needed to recruit him in the first place. Izana, I already mentioned (unusable in Revelation, personal skill is a hindrance).

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Why would you give a seal to a unit who uses it worse than Mozu? Because it's exactly what you're doing by giving the seal to anyone else. Personnally I farm gold and visit castles to grab more seals but with only the main game, no battle outside Before Awakening and Mozu's Paralogue, I'd give the 1st seal to Mozu (any physical seal, be it DLC, route bonus or anything else) because she's the best user for it. Why would you give it to a unit that doesn't do anything special when you could give it to a unit that surpasses 90% of the cast with it (barring the hackprinces who have free 1-2 range and insane base stats + base level, not suffering Duessel's drawbacks like having lower stats than their level even though Duessel's stats are awesome, Kyle and Gilliam would be better at his level, while Ryoma has +4 str, spd and +10 avoid/dodge to make up for his little under average speed and his good but not Effie tier strength, while Xander barely takes physical damage for a good portion of the game and can use dual katana to slaughter the ninjas)?

The only competition Mozu has for best overall unit when you invest a little into them is Azama, since his growths and bases are so good and in grandmaster he's so good it's not even funny.

Because in doing so, I don't have to go out of my way to make Mozu usable. I thought that was painfully obvious. It doesn't help that the main method of making her usable ends up with her competing with Takumi in two routes. Nor does it that in Revelation, she most likely will be recruited right before the wind chapter.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Even then she's still very usable (I'm using lv 1-16 witch> 16-20 cavalier Mozu and will put her in dark knight after promotion, she's got 10 magic of her own in cavalier with 12 def and 10 res, 18 speed at level 17, with free tonics dropping 2 or 3x a chapter on average, elbow room, 15 str, 25 hp, while her class was glass cannon for 15 level ups, well the 10 first level ups didn't give me much def/res I rolled unlucky RNG like every unit except Jakob who's never been so blessed than on this file with 22 spd lv 19, 10 mag 17 str 20 skl 28 HP, 12 def 14 res (got him Trample and Shurikenfaire from toher castles he's a monster even with Kagero's Kunai with 1 MT 20 avoid), she's still strong and rocked with calamity gate/nosferatu. DK will patch all of her mediocre stats especially defense-wise and shadowgift will let her nosferatank in DK, while Calamity gate will let her ignore completely beast killers.

And I'm supposed to believe Mozu is good because you favored her like that? Also, skill buying is not a valid argument in unit discussions.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Because Corrin can be at 1 place at a time (unless you go kamikaze with duplicate) so you need another tank for the chapters 7-8-early 9, and Rinkah tanks as well if not better than Silas, can have a C support with Kaze by the time Silas joins, and then hop on Silas back for movement and switch when needed for combat, alternating your tank to have more effective durability (2 hp bars). Rinkah should grow faster than Silas and more bulky physically speaking, and then you can get her elbow room so she beats Silas' attack and has 7 mixed damage without str/mag.

Chapter 7 is set up that you only need one tank to choke points, and a thief comes in several turns in. Chapter 8 is wide open. Chapter 9 requires rushing to stop thieves. I don't see Rinkah helping much on any of these fronts.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Subaki never dies in 1 arrow. Hinoka did, several times in a row because she missed a 98% chance to kill that Subaki would've made a 100% chance thanks to his skill. He wouldn't even have had to take that arrow.

That ain't a very convincing argument when you don't bother to back it up.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Sure, 7 levels is very long when you start at 10 with poison strike already in, 75% str growth, 5 points away from cap, already as high as Kaze's str cap from the beginning. Meanwhile Kaze level 10 has what, 11 str? That's my CQ lv 12 Kaze's str, 11. My Jakob is far better than my Kaze, while having 3 more speed (high enough for a level 19 Jakob to double any non-Ryoma ennemy). Actually with his skills I got from castles he even dealt 17 damage to chap 12 Ryoma before debuffing him to let Mozu lower him to 5 HP and Camilla finish him with her thunder tome, at turn 11.

Because it isn't like Kaze happens to participate in a chapter where he has the easiest time leveling up, right? Oh wait... Also, you discredited your own argument.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Sure. Go use a shuriken that lowers her speed before she's got enough to secure steel doubling, you're smart. Meanwhile she can deal 3.5 times more with barb than with steel and secure doubling. It's not CQ/hard/lunatic rev, not everyone has 12 def minimum in BR and you don't face many promoted ennemies before long.

Never mind the fact that the Barb Shuriken wins if and only if you get lucky with a critical hit - and that a non-critical hit is far more likely. In that instance, I want the weapon that does better the majority of the time - and that ain't the Barb Shuriken. If I wanted to use killer weapons, I would not be playing Fates in the first place...

 

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

You're pushing Kaze and downvoting Kagero for reasons that go against your own logic. Please explain how it's possible. Kaze's only use is to debuff, and even Felicia can do that at level 1. I don't need Kaze, meanwhile Kagero can do somthing useful, like killing things, and DF helps them kill by giving them base strength much higher than LOLninja and higher cap for Kagero not to be blocked at 20 until promotion. Why give it to her? Because everyone except Kaze, Jakob, Felicia, Kagero and Saizo is E in shurikens, while they're D and Kagero/saizo are C at base, immediately able to use dual, armor killing, barb and flame shuriken, Saizo has well spread growths, Kagero is a glass cannon, Kaze is only salvageable by giving hi a seal anyway, and Felicia/Jakob get normal exp gain if you put them in DLC classes, cancelling the whole point of being promoted with unpromoted exp gains.

Last I checked, you did the same thing when you attempted to devalue Lucina while supporting Mozu. Who in their right mind would be deluded enough to think the latter is easier to get up to speed???

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Powerful weapons aren't only silver. There are many weapons we don't remember because they were introduced in Fates, and many of them have niches. The advantage of using Subaki is that he can hit with every single weapon without caring of their accuracy, at least he's much more prone to hit with them than most of the other lance wielding units. And no, he doesn't die in 1 arrow, he survives with 2-5 HP depending on his level ups, which means he can even draw an archer to him and kill it, while Hinoka can't get rid of guard naginata for the whole game unless you exclusively use her to kill mages, even then she needs guard naginata to not take damage from the ones wielding C/B/A tomes.

I fail to see Subaki's overkill hit as an advantage because situations where it would help are virtually nonexistent (the most evasive enemy in the game is on the one route he isn't playable on). Also, saying that Subaki will always survive bow attacks isn't helping your case if you don't bother to back it up. Second, he will probably need help to kill that archer, and he definitely cannot do it on enemy phase.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Except untransformed Laguz can still tank more than your sowrdies because their def is nearly equal to theirs while they have 10-20 more HP, and that's for cats, tigers have 20-30 more hp at base than your swordies alongside 2-4 more base def than playable swordmasters. They get the same exp as unpromoted units around level 10-15 when untransformed, helping them cap stats much faster than Beorcs, and they have weapon ranks that allow them to have 0 weight 16-18 damage weapons with infinite durability, and they can draw an ennemy at them, who will replenish their transformation bar while giving exp then they one shoot that ennemy (2 shoot for trained cats) and go on a slaughter for 2-3 turns where your other units would need a healer behind them for every 2 ennemies they fight. Tigers have average 26 def transformed at base or after 1 level up, your tier 2 beorcs have around 12-18 def except generals, lv 16+ Aran and Haar who are closer to 20-25. That's for tigers AT BASE. They have more than 40% def growth, more than 100% hp growth and 22/44 def cap with 75 hp cap and 23/46 str cap, only their speed is limited with 15/30 cap which stays good enough for more than half of the game and they still tank much better than beorcs while having good mobility even inside where mounted units loose 2 movement, rendering their mount useless and even making it a handicap because they can't hop on balconies and they have beast killer weakness while being far less tanky.

All of this is false in the context of Radiant Dawn. Untransformed laguz tend to be easy pickings, and their growths are mostly poor, meaning that the risk of having them fight untransformed far outweighs the reward. Their strike rank is extremely slow to raise too. So in the end, I see laguz as high-maintenance units that don't pay off enough to justify jumping through all the hoops you need to to use them.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Actually he can tank the GK in 1v1 and even kill him in 2 rounds thanks to beast bane, but well, you can't know it if you don't play him. He has 31 base damage on the GK without pair up bonus or tonics, the GK has around 20-22 def, that's 9-11 damage x2. He 3/4HKOs the GK, which not many of your units can do at that time with physical weapons. He barely takes damage from mages while ORKOing them at base with enough base speed to do it for half of the game as long as he has a str tonic or str pair up for midgame, and he has 50% str growth so he can continue to do it for long. His base HP is the same as Camilla, but he has 6 levels before forced promotion and promotion bonuses after that, so he owns her in HP and res, speed while nearly matching her strength on average (he only lacks the str +2 from wyvern to have more str than her at level 20/1 while having around 5 HP more). Better, he can get a beastrune in chapter 15 (3 chapters after he joins), for +4 def +5 res, which is better than the dragonstone bonuses and doesn't make him unable to double, at the ridiculous cost of 2 points of skill and 1 point of speed for 80% accuracy on a 9 damage weapon. He can also get the beast stone + in chapter 22, with 12 damage, 90% acc, 5% crit and 10% avoid, which gives him 6 skl 8 spd at the cost of 5 def 3 res, unlike silver weapons is sacrifices defense for attack, while silver...sacrifices attack for instant burst and doesn't give avoid.

False. Beastbane only doubles weapon might. And those Great Knights kill him in two hits, while he needs 5 to defeat them. Also, the Beaststone+ is Awesome, But Impractical - the defense drops are too great for it to be worth it.

 

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Except Effie still has shit for personal classes, while Arthur's classes are all good.

>implying Fighter and Berserker are good classes

I have no words.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Yes, by using units who have more chances of doing what they're supposed to do, in which case Subaki's hit rates being higher than Hinoka mean I can rely on him more to do what I want him to do than I can with her. I don't expect him to dodge hits, meanwhile I would have to for Hinoka. I expect both of them to hit their attacks, but Subaki hits more often than Hinoka, so he is more practical for 90%+ success rate tactics while she is more like 80%+, leaving 10% more chance to succeed my tactics when I rely on Subaki than when I rely on Hinoka. BTW she was killed in normal difficulty in 1 arrow in the middle platform of the opera, while Subaki survives 1 arrow in hard difficulty, meaning she's ridiculously less tanky than he becomes in a few level ups while she stays behind with 35% def, 1 every 3 levels with 3 levels less to grow while he has 45%, close to 1 point per 2 levels, with 3 more level ups available than her, low level enough for it to count exp gain-wise.

Once again, you miss the point. If you're going to do something like have a flyer attack an archer, you better have backup in the event it doesn't work out, either due to misses or if they're not strong enough. And once again, I fail to see a marginal defensive advantage as enough to make him better, especially with his offense meaning he's likely to fall behind. In any instance, I see this as another instance of you blaming the unit for your own failings.

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

I didn't say otherwise. Just knights' only role is to have high def and seal def basically screws the only thing they're good at. Meanwhile pre-seals games let knights do the physical tanking better than anyone else, FE8 generals having 13 base def at level -20 with 23% growth implying 17.6 def expected, that's Duessel's base def and he's level 10 in Eirika's route. Generic generals have your tankiest unit's def at base 9 levels lower than him. And you couldn't reduce their def just by fighting them. Gatrie and Brom were walls, Barth and Oswin and Hector were walls. They feared magic but physical damage was negated by them. Now knights get sealed and ganged at by 5 ennemies using attack stance to deal even more damage on them. Now you have hexing rod that halves HP. Before Wary Fighter, knights/generals fear double attacks, because they damage them, a thing that shouldn't be acceptable for a wall. And oni savages have nearly as much def while not having armor weakness and being faster.

One, it isn't like every enemy in the game has Seal Defence. Two, knights had it even worse before Fates. And why mention Barth? Because not only is he a terrible unit, he's in the worst game to be an armored unit in that is not Genealogy of the Holy War. Also, Oni Savage is a terrible class with poor distribution, and Hexing Rods are bad news for other units as well.

 

On 9/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Conclusion : Let's agree to disagree because I'm the only one using numbers and any kind of real argument, while you're just saying no to everything I write while I bring proof for several arguments (like growth rates, base stats and averages), so it's not a debate, it's a whining.

I think you should try to go other ways than what you know, play differently for once, you could enjoy it. When arguing with you I feel like I'm trying to convince a climate changer denier that the climate is changing for worse with scientifical proof and logic, while they just say "no, no, evrything's fine, we will continue to use oil and gas, to put water in plastic bottles, to use coal and nuclear as energy sources and we will drive our 4 wheels all day long while eating fish or meat for each and every meal from breakfast to dinner and raise billions of animals for our annual food supply". It's like sweeping when there's 130 km/h wind.

Maybe if so many of your points weren't objectively wrong or complete nonsense...