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Alastor15243

Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! MISSION COMPLETE! ...For now.

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Or, you know, just divorce the gameplay from the story. Ever since Gaiden FE has allowed "0HP isn't death" thanks to a certain blond spawner of an archetype being shown alive when you had to "kill" him in the first game...

That said, said first game did went the length of making Minverva and the Whitewings outright invincible in their first appearance, so you couldn't kill them when they'd need to show up later on.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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19 minutes ago, Benice said:

Actually, regarding villains who don't die...  @BrightBow, @Spara or @Saint Rubenio, what happens if you defeat that guy in Ch. 3-M? Is he just gone for good, or does he "I can't fall here"?

He does warp away, but since the guy is nearly impossible to kill and has more things to do in the game, I can forgive them for it. Pretty sure the intended approach for the alternate events was to get Faye killed/captured, and they just added a failsafe in case the player managed to down him somehow.

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50 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

He does warp away, but since the guy is nearly impossible to kill and has more things to do in the game, I can forgive them for it. Pretty sure the intended approach for the alternate events was to get Faye killed/captured, and they just added a failsafe in case the player managed to down him somehow.

For sure, I just actually wasn't certain if Kaga just decided to let the player get away with it.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

One of them (Yen'fay) was killed off for real, and thus the one you recruit is from another world. The other three (Gangrel, Aversa and Walhart) survived.

Wonderful.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

How many other bosses in the series actually fell back for another round when defeated? The only one I can remember off the top of my head is Pablo in Sacred Stones (though he doesn't show up until late into the other map he shows up in, and as you can instantly get the big thumbs up by just killing the boss on said map, you might not even see him).

From Genealogy of the Holy War you have this quite a few times, with Chagall, Blume, and Hilda all returning once for certain. Ishtar could possibly return twice, and Julius could possible return once. I guess Midale dies once as a green unit and returns as a blue unit as well.

Thracia 776 is very faithful to the idea that 0 HP means death, and when there are recurring villains they will have invincibility flags that make people miss the max 99% hit. I guess there are the deadlords as well, but it is a bit different, as they only share faces with dead people (and only if they are dead...), not the names, and its sorta implied they are artificially created fakes.

Binding Blade doesn't really have this...other than Cecile sorta, who dies as a green unit and joins you afterwards.

Blazing Sword, Kishuna could potentially do this twice (although actually killing him in Genesis is difficult, but I have done it before). Other than that there are the endgame morphs that are very similar to the deadlords of FE5.

Sacred Stones has Pablo in Eirika's route, but both it can happen to Riev if you go for the boss kill on chapter 19, and always happens to Lyon.

Path of Radiance only really does this with recruitable units, with all the birds as green unit in chapter 17 part 4, Muarim in chapter 15, Shinon in chapter 18, and Ena from chapter 21...I am actually not certain of this one, but I suspect killing Naesala in chapter 19 still lets you recruit him in endgame.

Radiant Dawn however does have enemy Jarod return, as well as all the times you face your playable units as enemies...

Shadow Dragon allows you to drive off Minerva and the White Wings by taking them out, but that is the only instance of this I remember from that game.

New Mystery of the Emblem has basically every named enemy you face in the prologue return as either allies or enemies. Also Legion/Roro returns, although there being numerous fakes is his gimmick...

Awakening has Validar return at least once (twice if you count premonitions which might take place in a different universe, or not be a dream...). "Marth" returns after being defeated as an enemy, possible even after being defeated as a green unit, before finally being recruited. Cervantes returns once. Both Aversa and Walhart return at least once, twice if you think their return as PCs is from the same universe or even canon at all...I suppose there are also all the questionably canon units that return as PCs that might not even be from the same universe...

...It happens A LOT in Fates...I might come back and edit at some point, but for now I am too lazy to go through it.

In Shadows of Valentia Desaix has his body double, Jedah can return once, his daughters (Marla and Hestia) return once each as well, Slayde returns twice thanks to the prologue, Fernand returns twice, and finally Berkut returns twice.

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8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

How many other bosses in the series actually fell back for another round when defeated? The only one I can remember off the top of my head is Pablo in Sacred Stones (though he doesn't show up until late into the other map he shows up in, and as you can instantly get the big thumbs up by just killing the boss on said map, you might not even see him).

Also of note, for whatever reason, Manuela is an Assassin here, when she was a Priest last. The same thing happens with Acheron in Crimson Flower (is a Mage in pre-timeskip, but if you go to Crimson Flower, he's a Cavalier when he shows up) and Ladislava (if you side with Edelgard, she's a Cavalier in the following battle, but she's a Wyvern Rider/Lord as an enemy on the other routes).

Remembering from the top of my head, as someone mentioned we have Desaix in Gaiden, though he puls out the whole "Aha, it was my body double" thing to justify it, so you can see at the time they felt they needed to justify it in some way. That said, in the same game, Marla, Hestia and Jeddah can be defeated and still turn up in the final battle (and Marla and Hestia both need to be defeated).

Old Mystery revived damn near every major enemy from the previous game, but that's a little different to it happening in the same story (even though both stories were in the same game). It's still pretty stupid, but just a different sort of stupidity.

Genealogy has it a bit too. Chagall and Blume both survive being chapter bosses and come back next chapter, and Ishtar is fought a bunch of times only to be saved by Julius (and much more inexplicably Arione). Julius himself can even be defeated before the final confrontation. HIlda survives Chapter 10 too, one of the most egregious cases of it imo (especially because we never fight Aida in Genealogy despite her being super culpable for Sigurd's death, she just vanishes from the story completely, leaving Thracia the job of retconning and explanation for her death).

Thracia and Binding Blade I don't think it ever happens. Well Saias exists, but I think he's rigged to not be able to be killed or captured (Galzus can also be killed in the early game, but the developers obviously never expected anyone to be able to do so). Blazing Blade as that one early game cavalier guy whose name escapes me now, but as far as the story is concerned once he's defeated, he's gone. He just survives for continuity with Binding Blade.

Sacred Stones, Riv is fought twice. Though it's not mandatory to defeat him in the fog of war chapter.

Path of Radiance we have Ena. She's not fought twice, but she's defeat as an enemy, then executed by the black knight in a cutscene and then potentially joins as an ally. Though they seem to have been aware of how they were stretching things here, so they gave her the miracle skill. It's also possible to kill her twice more in Radiant Dawn, once as an npc and once as a player unit, and she still survives. Miracle op XD

Radiant Dawn, I can't think of any occasions, except fighting your own army members which are immune to death for obvious reasons. Oh, well I guess Ludvick survives in terms of plot, but you never fight him a second time. Oliver also inexplicably comes back to life in an Old Mystery clause.  Oh yeah, and Jarod is fought twice.

Awakening, as someone noted, all the major villains survive to become allies in spotpass. Though even though it's the same game, that's sort of an Old Mystery thing, as the game is a complete story without their revival. It's bonus content (still I'd rather they justified it with alternate worlds more, given how the differences in the timeline is one of the most interesting underutilized concepts in the game. Except Whalhart, he's best being a risen who is too badass to lose his own composure). It still pulls it with Cervantes though, who really looks like he's a random chapter boss that dies by the Mila Tree but then comes back for no reason at all. Validar is also fought two (or depending on how you look at it, up to four) times, but in his case it looks like he literally does die and is revived by Grima's time traveling machinations.

Fates has it a load, I'm not even going to count. Like I said, Takumi is fought five times in a single campaign. I will just say that one of the worst instances of it is Arete in Revalation who is fought like three or four times for no decent reason at all.

So yeah, it's not exactly a new feature. There have been cases of it before the modern times. It has been a lot more subdued however. Either characters survive for the plot and are never fought a second time, they survive to be fought again in chapters where you're never expected to actually kill them (actually I'm not even sure of the Galzus example, he might stay dead if you kill him in the early game), it's a single isolated case of an enemy being fought twice in the game or they're retconning a previous title and reviving characters with abandon. Still, I'm not some kind of "the old ways were the best" purist, I have issues with a lot of the survivals in this case too. If you can defeat Riev in the fog of war chapter, you might as well leave him out of the Morva chapter. It's not like his survival is a massive requirement for the story. And even when it is massive requirements, you can write around it. I would have loved if the early maps in Chapter 2 of Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia had Desaix swapped with Slayde depending on which one you killed when taking Zofia castle.

7 hours ago, Benice said:

Ah.

 

Also, on the topic, I kinda wish that, if they want to do recurring villains that you fight in FE, they'd  just do the Berwick Saga thing of giving them an item that saves them from death if they're not meant to die on that map-just have them leave the map in the scenario where they are forced to use the item.

Actually, regarding villains who don't die...  @BrightBow, @Spara or @Saint Rubenio, what happens if you defeat that guy in Ch. 3-M? Is he just gone for good, or does he "I can't fall here"?

That said item is also a pretty cool thing for the player to have. Basically guaranteed miracle on one unit for one expensive use.

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

From Genealogy of the Holy War you have this quite a few times, with Chagall, Blume, and Hilda all returning once for certain. Ishtar could possibly return twice, and Julius could possible return once. I guess Midale dies once as a green unit and returns as a blue unit as well.

Thracia 776 is very faithful to the idea that 0 HP means death, and when there are recurring villains they will have invincibility flags that make people miss the max 99% hit. I guess there are the deadlords as well, but it is a bit different, as they only share faces with dead people (and only if they are dead...), not the names, and its sorta implied they are artificially created fakes.

Binding Blade doesn't really have this...other than Cecile sorta, who dies as a green unit and joins you afterwards.

Blazing Sword, Kishuna could potentially do this twice (although actually killing him in Genesis is difficult, but I have done it before). Other than that there are the endgame morphs that are very similar to the deadlords of FE5.

Sacred Stones has Pablo in Eirika's route, but both it can happen to Riev if you go for the boss kill on chapter 19, and always happens to Lyon.

Path of Radiance only really does this with recruitable units, with all the birds as green unit in chapter 17 part 4, Muarim in chapter 15, Shinon in chapter 18, and Ena from chapter 21...I am actually not certain of this one, but I suspect killing Naesala in chapter 19 still lets you recruit him in endgame.

Radiant Dawn however does have enemy Jarod return, as well as all the times you face your playable units as enemies...

Shadow Dragon allows you to drive off Minerva and the White Wings by taking them out, but that is the only instance of this I remember from that game.

New Mystery of the Emblem has basically every named enemy you face in the prologue return as either allies or enemies. Also Legion/Roro returns, although there being numerous fakes is his gimmick...

Awakening has Validar return at least once (twice if you count premonitions which might take place in a different universe, or not be a dream...). "Marth" returns after being defeated as an enemy, possible even after being defeated as a green unit, before finally being recruited. Cervantes returns once. Both Aversa and Walhart return at least once, twice if you think their return as PCs is from the same universe or even canon at all...I suppose there are also all the questionably canon units that return as PCs that might not even be from the same universe...

...It happens A LOT in Fates...I might come back and edit at some point, but for now I am too lazy to go through it.

In Shadows of Valentia Desaix has his body double, Jedah can return once, his daughters (Marla and Hestia) return once each as well, Slayde returns twice thanks to the prologue, Fernand returns twice, and finally Berkut returns twice.

And I see someone else beat me to this...well now that feels like a waste of time. Though you got some I didn't and I got some you didn't. So it works out all in all in the end (I actually forgot to count the remakes, Berku and Fernand seem like egregious cases to me, and especially Slayde who had no business surviving at all). It's also funny to note that neither of us wanted to bother counting Fates XD

Edited by Jotari

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14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

How many other bosses in the series actually fell back for another round when defeated? The only one I can remember off the top of my head is Pablo in Sacred Stones (though he doesn't show up until late into the other map he shows up in, and as you can instantly get the big thumbs up by just killing the boss on said map, you might not even see him).

Genealogy did it from time to time with Chagaal, Blume. Julius and Ishtar all retreating to fight another day after you defeat them.

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14 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

they just added a failsafe in case the player managed to down him somehow.

It is very funny, though, how the game just assumes Faye's events happened if she's captured or Chaos is killed. Guess that was so you don't lock yourself out of her recruitment, but it's so amusing to me to see Faramir berating Faye for losing a battle she never fought. 

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Three Houses Day 65: Chapter 19 Week 2-4

This is mostly gonna be a support day. I doubt I'll have much to comment on during exploration.

...Okay, one thing. In Dimitri's meal talk with Felix, Dimitri... kept... conversationally waving his hands and moving his head like he was talking... long after he'd stopped.

Alright, so, I trained some more on Professr, let's see if she can unlock wyvern lord now.

...Yep! I've got it! Might use it too once I've finally mastered enlightened one. Pretty close now.

But yeah, let's do these damned supports.

First, Mercedes and Dedue's A.

Dedue tells Mercedes that the people of Duscur believe in every religion's gods, seeing them as the protectors of their lands and part of a huge pantheon, and that they sometimes even pray to them in times of war. He doesn't explain what kinds of war though.

It's lame that Duscur just says “the god of war”, and doesn't actually name him.

But yeah, beyond that, just standard, sappy, cheesy, non-committal pseudo-romantic A support material here.

Alright, Mercedes and Constance's A support now.

...So Constance found a scroll that could cure her... sunlight-induced PTSD, I think she basically described it as? But she says it could take decades for her to learn how to do it because it wasn't a field she studied.

...So... get someone who did study it to cast the spell for you.

...But Mercedes says she should just accept herself the way she is. And like... what? They act like her sunlight episodes are just her being annoying to other people, and not transcendently, nigh-suicidally miserable. Acting like as long as it doesn't bother other people, there's no reason why she'd want to stop being a self-hating wreck whenever she steps out into the sunlight. That is so profoundly bizarre.

Now Seteth and Flayn's A, where, if you haven't seen their paralogue, it finally reveals that they're not brother and sister, but father and daughter.

...I forgot basically everything else about this support though, including how apparently Seteth becoming careless during a big battle got Flayn... extremely hurt, I think? And it got his wife killed.

...God damn it, the supports are such a blur that I can't remember... does Flayn have a ton of supports where she meets people at night time, two people who can't sleep running into each other? I know there are a ton of those supports in the game with certain people, but I can't remember how many Flayn was involved with. Because they just flat-out tell us that she's been terrified of falling asleep ever since she had to rest for ages to recover from her injuries in that battle, and giving her a bunch of those would have been a great way to make that more than just empty words.

And finally, Felix and Leonie's A.

...That's amusing. They use the lighthearted casual conversation music for this one, despite it being an A rank between a guy and a girl.

Felix... just outright says “you're impressive, for a girl”. Weird for him to have that belief without it getting challenged more strongly, but honestly any effort to do so would probably be cringeworthy, so maybe Leonie's surprisingly gentle “For a girl? Come on, you're past that. Looking down on your opponent is a great way to fall into a pit trap, isn't it?” is for the best.

Okay, there is a bit of implied romance at the end when Felix reacts slightly embarrassed to her calling them “partners”.

But that's it for today. Sorry, but I just barely did enough that I don't think I can do a full map and all the accompanying story today.

Come Monday, we'll save Claude.

Stay safe, everyone.

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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Thracia and Binding Blade I don't think it ever happens. Well Saias exists, but I think he's rigged to not be able to be killed or captured (Galzus can also be killed in the early game, but the developers obviously never expected anyone to be able to do so). Blazing Blade as that one early game cavalier guy whose name escapes me now, but as far as the story is concerned once he's defeated, he's gone. He just survives for continuity with Binding Blade.

Erik. I actually like him quite a bit- "Let me show you the way of the world".

Spoiler

JOTARI.

unknown.png

THE WORLD!

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Sacred Stones, Riv is fought twice. Though it's not mandatory to defeat him in the fog of war chapter.

I don't think you have to kill Riev in the penultimate chapter either, since it's a seize map. I mean, you're very likely to kill him since he's in the way, but he isn't a required kill.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oliver also inexplicably comes back to life in an Old Mystery clause.

I think that even in-universe people are surprised he's alive. It's as if he was mysteriously brought back by the force of his undying beauty. Or memes. Probably memes.

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1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

  Hide contents

OTARI.

unknown.png

THE WORLD!

 

I don't think you have to kill Riev in the penultimate chapter either, since it's a seize map. I mean, you're very likely to kill him since he's in the way, but he isn't a required kill.

You're almost certainly correct. You could just kill Morva and ignore Riev. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's even stationary and doesn't pursue your units. #MercyForRiev

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I think that even in-universe people are surprised he's alive. It's as if he was mysteriously brought back by the force of his undying beauty. Or memes. Probably memes.

Yeah, it bothers me a lot in Mystery of the Emblem because it just stinks of unoriginality and contrivance, but Oliver doesn't bother me at all because it's played for as such a joke. A joke that lands in my opinion. Making him playable was a great way of selling it too. If he weren't and he was just a chapter boss then it'd just be a weird choice done to fill out a chapter that needed a boss (even though a random disciple of order could have done), but making him playable elevated him to grand heights of memeness.

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8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're almost certainly correct. You could just kill Morva and ignore Riev. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's even stationary and doesn't pursue your units. #MercyForRiev

Yeah, it bothers me a lot in Mystery of the Emblem because it just stinks of unoriginality and contrivance, but Oliver doesn't bother me at all because it's played for as such a joke. A joke that lands in my opinion. Making him playable was a great way of selling it too. If he weren't and he was just a chapter boss then it'd just be a weird choice done to fill out a chapter that needed a boss (even though a random disciple of order could have done), but making him playable elevated him to grand heights of memeness.

Riev does actually move, as shown in the last video of Kebe's tease of an LTC. He does spare Riev though.

I would probably laugh at it more if I wasn't unsure if he was a pedophile.

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3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Sorry everyone, but this week is gonna be another bad week for updates. Busy schedule. I'll be taking it off.

So what's the plan on when you finish Azure Moon? Because you're really quite close to the end now. Just three chapters, I think, the last two of which offer no skirmishes or monastery exploration in between. Will that be it for the play log, or will you try Crimson Flower Maddening? I guess you're probably sick of Three Houses though.

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3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So what's the plan on when you finish Azure Moon? Because you're really quite close to the end now. Just three chapters, I think, the last two of which offer no skirmishes or monastery exploration in between. Will that be it for the play log, or will you try Crimson Flower Maddening? I guess you're probably sick of Three Houses though.

...I'll think about it. A very big part of me wants to be done with Three Houses and either take a big break or do the Kaga Saga. The other, morbidly curious part wants to play Maddening just to see how horrible it is.

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1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

...I'll think about it. A very big part of me wants to be done with Three Houses and either take a big break or do the Kaga Saga. The other, morbidly curious part wants to play Maddening just to see how horrible it is.

If you do Kaga Saga then I'll be obligated to play it first to stay ahead of you. I did actually start Tear Ring, oh goodness, like a year ago, more in fact, but I stalled about half way through. Old UI is hard to get through when you don't have a nostalgia factor. I'd also remind you that you never finished the last Archanea Saga episode in New Mystery.

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On 11/19/2021 at 2:50 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Erik. I actually like him quite a bit- "Let me show you the way of the world".

I also think it kinda matters how Erik's handled.

For stuff like the mage in 3H in the holy Tomb, the game proceeds to completely ignore how they were just bleeding on the ground and are now suddenly fine, or somehow aren't wounded at all like Kostas, you may as well have not even fought them.

Meanwhile Erik is heavily beaten up, while we don't see it since limitations, Hector yelling at him to get up implies he's pretty badly hurt instead of just "I took a crit to he face but am now somehow seemingly unhurt."

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5 hours ago, Jotari said:

If you do Kaga Saga then I'll be obligated to play it first to stay ahead of you. I did actually start Tear Ring, oh goodness, like a year ago, more in fact, but I stalled about half way through. Old UI is hard to get through when you don't have a nostalgia factor. I'd also remind you that you never finished the last Archanea Saga episode in New Mystery.

Just so you know, Berwick Saga is an extremely lengthy game with lots of content; it may be hard to get that done in time in addition to TRS. And Vestaria too.

I think TRS is also pretty long, but I haven't played it yet.

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Incidentally, I finally got around to beating the Triangle Strategy demo today.

Spoiler

I picked the "Defend the prince at all costs" path and didn't use the secret weapon.

I am honestly hyped as shit. I was really torn on Octopath when it came out, but everything I've seen here (except the voice acting, and even that gets better as the demo progresses) has me pumped to play the real deal this spring.

Edited by Alastor15243

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On 11/19/2021 at 11:23 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I would probably laugh at it more if I wasn't unsure if he was a pedophile.

"I swear, officer, that Heron is hundreds of years old!"

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I'll think about it. A very big part of me wants to be done with Three Houses and either take a big break or do the Kaga Saga. The other, morbidly curious part wants to play Maddening just to see how horrible it is.

And I'd be morbidly curious to see your thoughts re: Maddening. Especially when 3H Hard Mode is still basically a mental vacation.

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

For stuff like the mage in 3H in the holy Tomb, the game proceeds to completely ignore how they were just bleeding on the ground and are now suddenly fine, or somehow aren't wounded at all like Kostas, you may as well have not even fought them.

Meanwhile Erik is heavily beaten up, while we don't see it since limitations, Hector yelling at him to get up implies he's pretty badly hurt instead of just "I took a crit to he face but am now somehow seemingly unhurt."

See also: Kronya, running away after being defeated in battle. Characters surviving a fight in a weakened state and having dialogue immediately thereafter is fine; characters being defeated and seeming no "worse for wear", ready to jump right back into the action afterwards, is not.

44 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I am honestly hyped as shit. I was really torn on Octopath when it came out, but everything I've seen here (except the voice acting, and even that gets better as the demo progresses) has me pumped to play the real deal this spring.

Me too! Probably my most hyped upcoming game right now. It was enough like Fire Emblem to draw me in, while also doing enough different to assert its own identity. I initially did the same path you did, and having also done the "other" path, I felt way better about the former. Really makes me wonder, if your decisions really matter, how far you can screw things up without getting a Game Over?

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3 hours ago, Benice said:

Just so you know, Berwick Saga is an extremely lengthy game with lots of content; it may be hard to get that done in time in addition to TRS. And Vestaria too.

I think TRS is also pretty long, but I haven't played it yet.

My God that's like...half a Three Houses playthrough XD

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

My God that's like...half a Three Houses playthrough XD

...Okay, you've got a point.

Fortunately, Berwick Saga isn't 80% recycled content, though!

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On 11/19/2021 at 5:23 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I would probably laugh at it more if I wasn't unsure if he was a pedophile.

What Oliver? He's artsexual so as long as you're not a painting you're probably fine around him. 

I never had the impression he was going to do unwholesome things with Reyson. Just that he intended to keep him as a living museum piece. Especially since Herons are too frail to really do anything else with. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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On 11/21/2021 at 2:20 PM, Alastor15243 said:

...I'll think about it. A very big part of me wants to be done with Three Houses and either take a big break or do the Kaga Saga. The other, morbidly curious part wants to play Maddening just to see how horrible it is.

I thought you're planning on taking a break. And in fact, I would recommend doing so, as you probably would be hesitant to jump right back in right after. Also, the jump in difficulty from hard to maddening is... crazy, to put it nicely. Especially if you're playing without NG+,

Edited by Shadow Mir

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, the jump in difficulty from hard to maddening is... crazy, to put it nicely. Especially if you're playing without NG+,

Yeah, TH is a lot like Awakening where the differences between difficulties is so wide that it can be hard to find a satisfying one, and is especially annoying if you played enough to grow bored of one difficulty and want to move up to the next one...

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On 11/21/2021 at 10:34 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"I swear, officer, that Heron is hundreds of years old!"

On 11/22/2021 at 7:19 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

What Oliver? He's artsexual so as long as you're not a painting you're probably fine around him. 

I was more so talking about his "supports" with Sanaki and such.

@Alastor15243 If you hate FE16 so much (and you should), I wouldn't bother with maddening. What complaint of yours could more difficulty possibly fix?

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