Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

..Why did that enemy knight have an orange bar bonus on his hit rate on Faye? Did that knight have a support bonus? Or can my support bonuses be negative?

The latter. The Faye x Alm support includes an avoid malus (to Faye, at least).

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

What I find interesting when thinking about this is that Rigel's stopped trying to invade. It's gone on the defensive, despite refusing to treat for peace. This just raises further questions about how the Deliverance can think any of this is necessary to protect Zofia.

It's kind of interesting to think how easily this could have backfired. Supposing that the Zofian Army were decimated in hostile and unfamiliar Rigel, it could open a pathway to a second invasion of Zofia. Hell, they don't even need to be decimated - they could just, oh, I dunno, all go off course for a side trip to Fear Mountain. Thus providing the Rigelians a clear pathway to reestablish a foothold in Zofia.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Anyway, I hear “What Lies at the End” for the first time in this playlog fighting my way out of the shrine I managed to run into without combat, and I love this song. But it only infuriates me further that it constantly has to be interrupted by “DANANA DANANA DAN DAN! DANANA DANANA DAN DAN!”

Really highlights one of the strongest design decisions of modern FE - that is, making the combat music a variation of the map theme. I'd be game for them even doing this in future remakes.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

I'm reminded of that scene in The Office where Kelly sees Jim for the first time in ages after he comes back to the Scranton branch and she just starts ranting about all the celebrity gossip stuff she obsesses about that happened since he left, and he's like “...Great! ...And... what's new with you?” and she just stares at him like he's an idiot and goes “...I just told you.”

Ah, Kelly Kapoor - the business bitch. I thought you were going to raise her relationship with Ryan, which - while generally discomfiting - at least isn't one-sided like Faye's Almsession is.

[Acacia Sgt]

The Alm x Faye is the only one with an actual negative bonus. Well, I don't remember which are the bonuses for the DLC supports, but at least in the base game, there's only one. Fun fact, it also goes up. C rank is -5 Evd, B is -10, and A is -15. So, evasion becomes worse as the support grows.

Also, since you reached that point... RIP Seazas. The only guy actually cut from the remake, because for some reason they decided to have Berkut replace him. Instead of just, plopping him with him. I mean, Slayde didn't replaced Mueller, for example. But Seazas somehow gets the boot. Beats me why... I mean, if they were going to remove him from the map, they could've at least made him the third guy in the "only three guys" map since might as well. But well, that didn't happened.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Alastor15243]

44 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Really highlights one of the strongest design decisions of modern FE - that is, making the combat music a variation of the map theme. I'd be game for them even doing this in future remakes.

Big agree there. I think the normal battle themes should be turned into early game boss themes to keep them in the game, but the actual normal battles use a more intense version of the map theme.

Also, fascinating about Faye's support "bonus". I wonder why they chose to do that.

[Samz707]

12 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Big agree there. I think the normal battle themes should be turned into early game boss themes to keep them in the game, but the actual normal battles use a more intense version of the map theme.

Also, fascinating about Faye's support "bonus". I wonder why they chose to do that.

I guess to show how she's fighting for Alm to the detriment of herself?

A kinda surprisingly semi-serious thing considering how in the Japanese version she's even more one-note and over-the-top from what I hear.

[Acacia Sgt]

If I were to try to rationalize it, I'm guessing since she did talked about killing in Alm's name, being near him makes her fired up to kill the enemies in front of her (hence the Hit and Crit bonuses), but at the same time makes her focus less on her surroundings, and thus pay less attention when someone is going after her or thinks less on getting out of the way. Hence the evade loss.

Personally, it's an interesting way to do supports, but it's understandable if the practice remains seldom used. After all, a negative something just wouldn't be well received.

[Jotari]

21 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That is annoying, but you can just leave out the other exit and reenter to get access to all of your stuff.

 

Plus Alm realized how cruel his comments were given who she actually was...

 

Alm is wrong so many times that I have a hard time comprehending this feeling that he is always right. Take that first argument where Celica is criticize him for leading a war

and Celica rightly calls him out for it, and its not like he doesn't know how much of a scumbucket Lima IV is.

At the very least Celica does most of the stupid stuff she does trying to help people, and most of her stupid decision are made with the idea that most of the consequences will be for her personally, whereas Alm knows the consequences of his actions will mainly fall on others.

 

The game regularly shows that Alm's ignorance, and "accidents" are the results of his own actions. 

Alm knew the questions he could have asked before he put his foot in it. Even if Alm didn't hear Desaix's final words due to dumb story reasons

Alm knew Clive figured something out after Desaix's death about Alm, and he doesn't press Clive on this secret he "can't share". The game makes perfectly clear that Alm could have known if he wanted to in both of these cases. This was about as accidental as crashing a car while blindfolded. Or lets look at the time he decided to trust Clive's judgement about invading Rigel. This is shortly after

that time he didn't trust Clives judgement because it would result in the unnecessary death of innocents. Not to mention Clive lead this army to disaster after disaster and is part of why Alm became the leader of this army. He has plenty of reason not to trust Clives judgement on military affairs like this, and yet he does.

Alm's war leading to the death of innocents is something I could get behind a lot more if it's something the game itself actually presented as a consequence. Like if Delthea getting enslaved was blamed on Alm for some reason (even if unjustly blamed it would still present the idea that people are suffering because of this and he's blamed). But the game mostly glosses over all of the issues Celica has. The closest thing we get to it is the hostility the Rigelian village has for Alm should Zeke be killed, but much like dead Mathilda, that's an alternate scenario that isn't really designed to be a part of the story the player is expected to experience. I do get what you're saying though. Because the way you see Alm in Shadows of Valentia is the way I want to see Alm. It's just that it either something the game failed to actually convey to me (and a lot of others), or they had no interest in showing Alm as a flawed character at all.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Faye's Act 4 “village conversation” makes me really question what the fuck the writers were thinking with her. Her one-dimensional obsession with Alm irritates, disturbs, or greatly concerns everyone around her, including apparently her own family. And yet at the same time they don't seem to depict her as actually being crazy or weird. Her facial expressions, language and voice acting all indicate a totally normal, wholesome girl next door, it's just that the direction of all of these things is directed towards a ludicrous Alm obsession. Like, first off, why'd they do it at all, but second, if they had resolved to do it, why the fuck did they go halfway about it in this way? Like, Tharja is a way more interesting character than Faye, in part because they went all out on how fucked up her obsession is. Of course, her supports demonstrate there are so many other facets to her completely deplorable and reprehensible personality, so it's not just that they went all-out on it, but even though I hate her as a character, I can say with moral certainty that even if she only had one or two of her Awakening supports, and even if they were just the ones where she was the most obsessive about the avatar, she would still be a more interesting and compelling character than Faye.

It's that contrast that kind of works for me in regards to Faye. Plus in addition to her unrequited love being a forgone conclusion, without also being the all too common pining coming from someone who doesn't even speak to their object of affection, it adds a layer of self awareness to the character that doesn't come across with pandering. People are concerned about her in a way that feels proportional to how crazy she is (which is, not all that much really). And by the end even she's fully self aware of the circumstance she's in and just learns to deal with it. If they had just went full Yandere on her I don't think she'd be as interesting to me.

Quote

...So, if the weather in Rigel is caused by altitude, it's kinda funny that Alm starts this fight charging downhill rather than up.

Foundations for the ridiculously large sluice?

Quote

...Well that's annoying. I lost Python because I didn't think to un-deploy all my dead weight and even though I could've sworn I moved him out of the way of the incoming sniper... apparently I didn't. And he was one-shot. And just when I was this close to finishing the battle.

 

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The Alm x Faye is the only one with an actual negative bonus. Well, I don't remember which are the bonuses for the DLC supports, but at least in the base game, there's only one. Fun fact, it also goes up. C rank is -5 Evd, B is -10, and A is -15. So, evasion becomes worse as the support grows.

Also, since you reached that point... RIP Seazas. The only guy actually cut from the remake, because for some reason they decided to have Berkut replace him. Instead of just, plopping him with him. I mean, Slayde didn't replaced Mueller, for example. But Seazas somehow gets the boot. Beats me why... I mean, if they were going to remove him from the map, they could've at least made him the third guy in the "only three guys" map since might as well. But well, that didn't happened.

I think it would have been way better if they just named Berkut Seazas. Then Rudolf's Nephew wouldn't be a new character. They would have just give a monstrously high amount of additional importance to a character that had zero lines in the original game, which would really tickle my fancy XD

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If I were to try to rationalize it, I'm guessing since she did talked about killing in Alm's name, being near him makes her fired up to kill the enemies in front of her (hence the Hit and Crit bonuses), but at the same time makes her focus less on her surroundings, and thus pay less attention when someone is going after her or thinks less on getting out of the way. Hence the evade loss.

Personally, it's an interesting way to do supports, but it's understandable if the practice remains seldom used. After all, a negative something just wouldn't be well received.

I could see it working as a mechanic in a support system like Radiant Dawn, where you choose just one support to assign to your character. Then it's something you can turn on or off and would help to balance some broken affinity combinations.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

21 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

@Eltosian KadathYeah, honestly, I phrased my issues with the Alm-Celica dynamic improperly. Something does indeed feel profoundly different and lopsided about their roles in the story and their interactions with each other, but I don't think I have a proper understanding of what exactly it is and why it's making me feel this way. I wish I could put my finger on it.

It’s because the story does a very poor job of presenting those ideas because Alm IS always right by the logic of the narrative. He never really faces any real consequences. The only one being him killing his own father. And even that event is not presented as his fault. My issue with Alm is that none of bad situations he gets into are his fault or at the very least it’s never presented as such. If we go by the dialogue by the end of the game Alm’s character flaw is supposed to be reflective of Duma. It’s his recklessness and unwillingness to find other solutions outside of bloodshed. This is fine but that flaw never goes anywhere beyond just unknowingly killing his father. And not to discredit that moment or anything but the story doesn’t do anything else with that flaw. Its a flaw that’s supposed to help him foil Berkut but that conflict is so laughably one sided and contradictory. Alm for the majority of the narrative is framed as a static protagonist as seen with the whole thing with Clive and saving Delthea as well as early on with Lukas and saving Silque. But then all of a sudden they want you to think he’s a dynamic character all along with a character flaw that was never really there. 
 

like the flaw the story wants to get across is completely at odds with his characterization. By Contrast when Celica does something stupid it makes sense for her characterization because she was already established as a naive and not so confident person. It’s her self-doubt that leads her to make these mistakes. She’s overly naive and pacifistic. Alm is supposed to be the opposite. He’s supposed to be headstrong, reckless, and stubborn. But he’s never characterized that way. I mean he does have those traits but they’re marginally more subdued than they should be. SoV is a story about duality and how the flaws of Duma and Mila’s ideals on their own bring their countries to ruin. It’s in the marriage of those two ideals that valentia can truly prosper. Duma says as much with his final words right before he is sealed away. Alm and Celica’s character arcs are supposed to be reflective of that which is the reason they are dual protagonists. Problem is though that Alm doesn’t reflect the flaws of Duma’s ideals at all.

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Alm's war leading to the death of innocents is something I could get behind a lot more if it's something the game itself actually presented as a consequence.

It could have done a better job of it, but it partially does this by trying to break down the barrier between Rigelian and enemy. The Dileverance and Rigel both have motivations for this war which aren't clearly good or evil, but lying in the moral grey. The villagers are all a clever look at why faceless mooks would fight in a war, even if it has questionable motives, like wanting to help support their family financially (like Tobin), taking advantage of the only opportunity they have to see the world outside their home town (like Kliff), buying into all the masculine rhetoric about war (like Gray), or simply devotion to a charismatic leader (like Faye). Plus Celica spells it out in their argument

Quote

Celica: Is it really so naive? Zofians and Rigelians are both people of Valentia, are we not? ...

Alm may be othering the Rigelians, but the audience isn't necessarily supposed to.

 

35 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Like if Delthea getting enslaved was blamed on Alm for some reason (even if unjustly blamed it would still present the idea that people are suffering because of this and he's blamed).

It partially is Alm's fault Delthea was enslaved, the Rigelians only learn about Delthea because Alm defeating Desaix at Zophia castle without finishing off Slayde, which convinced Slayde to defect to Rigel, and use the secret of her to secure his defection.

 

36 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The closest thing we get to it is the hostility the Rigelian village has for Alm should Zeke be killed, but much like dead Mathilda, that's an alternate scenario that isn't really designed to be a part of the story the player is expected to experience.

If players weren't expected to experience it, it wouldn't have been made. The whole permadeath system is there because the devs don't expect people to play perfectly, and those imperfections will create a story unique to them, and that is by design, so why should this be so different? Plus the weight of its possibility has an impact on you, thanks to the ways you have to change your play to compensate for the trigger of these events.

 

40 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I do get what you're saying though. Because the way you see Alm in Shadows of Valentia is the way I want to see Alm. It's just that it either something the game failed to actually convey to me (and a lot of others), or they had no interest in showing Alm as a flawed character at all.

I think a big part of that is that Alm's flaws break a lot of expectations that have been ingrained in a lot of moralistic fiction. First he is a charismatic, handsome, and likeable guy, despite the longstanding tropes of beauty and charisma being tied to goodness. I rather appreciated that about Alm, him being charismatic, but flawed, as a lot of fiction primes us to equate the two to our detriment, or undermine the trope by making them full on evil, rather than the more nuanced approach here. Second is the "even once" sort of logic that undermines all of weight of the drug PSAs (although it is common in a lot of stories with morals). It feels far more true to life, as just like drug use, Alm's flaws don't lead to disaster every time, but it sure does make them more likely, and unless he corrects that flaw, disaster eventually becomes unavoidable. A part of his flaw is that it can be covered for by the player's capabilities, but that is why people, Alm included, often have to reach a rock bottom before they realize they need to fix things. Third is that it isn't an emotional flaw. There is that long standing cliche about good character's flaw being tied to a strong emotion, run rampant but that isn't what Alm has.

[Samz707]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

I think it would have been way better if they just named Berkut Seazas. Then Rudolf's Nephew wouldn't be a new character. They would have just give a monstrously high amount of additional importance to a character that had zero lines in the original game, which would really tickle my fancy XD

 

I honestly want them to add Seazas to Heroes in some way that pokes fun somehow at the fact he was absent in the remake. (Like him having conveniently went on vacation or something.)

 

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Alm's war leading to the death of innocents is something I could get behind a lot more if it's something the game itself actually presented as a consequence. Like if Delthea getting enslaved was blamed on Alm for some reason (even if unjustly blamed it would still present the idea that people are suffering because of this and he's blamed). But the game mostly glosses over all of the issues Celica has. The closest thing we get to it is the hostility the Rigelian village has for Alm should Zeke be killed, but much like dead Mathilda, that's an alternate scenario that isn't really designed to be a part of the story the player is expected to experience. I do get what you're saying though. Because the way you see Alm in Shadows of Valentia is the way I want to see Alm. It's just that it either something the game failed to actually convey to me (and a lot of others), or they had no interest in showing Alm as a flawed character at all.

 

I mean, if it wasn't really something they wanted you to experience, they wouldn't have included it.

We've seen with Awakening how if the writers didn't care about dying, you could literally kill the children (Cynthia) of the Lord (Chrom) and the game won't comment on it at all.

As well as giving all of the child-birthing characters plot armor so roughly half the cast can't actually die, yes I know there's the "actually an alternative timeline" excuse but that's never even mentioned in the base-game and was probably added later to explain-away the inconsistences of just having the mothers not dying, like Ricken as a band-aid over the Plot-armor not actually preventing time paradoxes.

So I do think they intended people to experience it (This is the game that actually factors in if you visit Ram Ranch as Celica, has the DLC prevent you from recruiting the characters into both armies and even has the watchman show up again if you leave/re-enter the first dungeon before beating the boss.) 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Samz707

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It could have done a better job of it, but it partially does this by trying to break down the barrier between Rigelian and enemy. The Dileverance and Rigel both have motivations for this war which aren't clearly good or evil, but lying in the moral grey. The villagers are all a clever look at why faceless mooks would fight in a war, even if it has questionable motives, like wanting to help support their family financially (like Tobin), taking advantage of the only opportunity they have to see the world outside their home town (like Kliff), buying into all the masculine rhetoric about war (like Gray), or simply devotion to a charismatic leader (like Faye). Plus Celica spells it out in their argument

Alm may be othering the Rigelians, but the audience isn't necessarily supposed to.

Not necessarily supposed to maybe in conceit, but in action the game does other the Rigellians a fair bit. We see no positive or well rounded Rigellians aside from the ones that defect and join us (because they've literally been imprisoned and black mailed by other Rigelians) until meeting Maesana. Once again, it's something I wish the game did do, but it really doesn't, at least not to a large enough extent to make it engaging.

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It partially is Alm's fault Delthea was enslaved, the Rigelians only learn about Delthea because Alm defeating Desaix at Zophia castle without finishing off Slayde, which convinced Slayde to defect to Rigel, and use the secret of her to secure his defection.

Yeah, but Alm never discovers that and the game never treats it like it's Alm's fault. That's my point. We can judge Alm and Celica and Rudolf's actions as much as we want to paint them all as horrible flawed people, but how the game actually depicts and treats them is what's most important for the narrative. Like to use a different example, I might heavily disagree with the morals of Marth invading Pyrathi and think it makes him a much less noble a character, but my interpretation isn't worth much when the game is entirely ignoring the immorality and consequences of his actions in that chapter. Alm could be directly responsible for Delthea's enslavement (he's not, he's very indirectly at a stretch by not being more violent), but it doesn't really matter unless the game treats it as such. That's not reading between the lines, it's inventing the lines to make the game more engaging.

 

8 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I honestly want them to add Seazas to Heroes in some way that pokes fun somehow at the fact he was absent in the remake. (Like him having conveniently went on vacation or something.)

At the very least it has somewhat hilariously turned him into quite a noteworthy character where before he was among a handful of generic bosses with zero dialogue.

8 hours ago, Samz707 said:

 

I mean, if it wasn't really something they wanted you to experience, they wouldn't have included it.

We've seen with Awakening how if the writers didn't care about dying, you could literally kill the children (Cynthia) of the Lord (Chrom) and the game won't comment on it at all.

As well as giving all of the child-birthing characters plot armor so roughly half the cast can't actually die, yes I know there's the "actually an alternative timeline" excuse but that's never even mentioned in the base-game and was probably added later to explain-away the inconsistences of just having the mothers not dying, like Ricken as a band-aid over the Plot-armor not actually preventing time paradoxes.

So I do think they intended people to experience it (This is the game that actually factors in if you visit Ram Ranch as Celica, has the DLC prevent you from recruiting the characters into both armies and even has the watchman show up again if you leave/re-enter the first dungeon before beating the boss.) 

Of course it's meant to be experienced, but it's not part of the core narrative of the story. The game isn't really doing it's job in the most functional way if the story only makes thematic sense in one of two alternate scenarios.

[Eltosian Kadath]

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

We see no positive or well rounded Rigellians aside from the ones that defect and join us (because they've literally been imprisoned and black mailed by other Rigelians) until meeting Maesana.

Other than the inhabitants of the Sage's Hamlet, plus the people of the Rigelian village, although one could argue they were in a similar position to Zeke and Tatiana. I suppose I could add the Rigellian sailors that were being held in Barth's pirate fortress to the list as well.

 

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but Alm never discovers that and the game never treats it like it's Alm's fault.

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alm could be directly responsible for Delthea's enslavement (he's not, he's very indirectly at a stretch by not being more violent), but it doesn't really matter unless the game treats it as such. That's not reading between the lines, it's inventing the lines to make the game more engaging.

Perhaps I am reading between the lines by hinting that Alm could have killed Slayde, but the game does treat it as partially Alm's fault through Slayde's lines

Quote

Slayde: Soft, friend, soft! I’m not your enemy. I was working under Desaix, but those damned rebels ran us out of the castle. I was thinking I might defect to Rigel… in exchange for my services, of course.

Cantor: Heh. And you expect me to trust a man who so utterly lacks shame?

Slayde: You sure you can afford not to? You just got your scrawny hides kicked trying to kidnap one little girl. You really want to go back to the boss-man empty-handed?

Cantor: Hrm…

Slayde: See, I know about this little forest northwest of Zofia Castle. And in this forest, there’s a village…

Slayde is fairly explicit that the reason he had to defect and give away the secret of Delthea was because Alm's forces kicked them out of Zophia Castle. Indirect for sure, but still some clear fault on the side of Alm. If Alm hadn't taken Zophia castle, Delthea would not have been kidnapped. As for Alm not learning about it, not learning about critical information he should is one of his more notable features...

[Alastor15243]

27 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Slayde is fairly explicit that the reason he had to defect and give away the secret of Delthea was because Alm's forces kicked them out of Zophia Castle. Indirect for sure, but still some clear fault on the side of Alm. If Alm hadn't taken Zophia castle, Delthea would not have been kidnapped. As for Alm not learning about it, not learning about critical information he should is one of his more notable features...

That's... not how guilt works, though. Taking back Zofia Castle wasn't an immoral act. It's no more Alm's fault that Delthea got kidnapped than it's Lyn's fault castle Araphen got attacked because she didn't promptly commit suicide and mail her own severed head to Castle Caelin the second she learned Lundgren wanted her dead.

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

That's... not how guilt works, though. Taking back Zofia Castle wasn't an immoral act. It's no more Alm's fault that Delthea got kidnapped than it's Lyn's fault castle Araphen got attacked because she didn't promptly commit suicide and mail her own severed head to Castle Caelin the second she learned Lundgren wanted her dead.

To put this all in a less Fire emblem comparison, Peter Parker didn't kill Uncle Ben, but he recognized how his own actions led to that event, and feels guilt for being an indirect cause of it.

Alm's justifications for taking Zofia Castle are at best morally dubious, and some harm resulted from. Sure he didn't do the deed against Delthea himself, but he drove Slayde into that desperate corner.

As for the Lyn comment, it is her fault for negotiating for Araphen's aid in the conflict between her and Lundgren, and making him and his lands a target. Lord Araphen makes that fairly clear in his dialogue as well. Note that Lundgren didn't burn down Kathleet when Lyn passed through it (twice...) and Lyn is overjoyed Eliwood ensured the other houses wouldn't get involved. She wasn't the primary cause, but an indirect one.

 

[Alastor15243]

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alm's justifications for taking Zofia Castle are at best morally dubious, and some harm resulted from. Sure he didn't do the deed against Delthea himself, but he drove Slayde into that desperate corner.

I'm picturing a certain character from Invincible yelling "WHY DID YOU MAKE ME DO THIS!?".

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

58 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alm's justifications for taking Zofia Castle are at best morally dubious, and some harm resulted from. Sure he didn't do the deed against Delthea himself, but he drove Slayde into that desperate corner.

Morally dubious how? Desaix had not only betrayed their country to Rigel, he was also responsible for not only the death of the previous king, but also for keeping such "rogue knights" as Slayde in the kingdom's employ. He is absolutely unfit to lead Zofia, and the Deliverance are firmly justified in displacing him and his Rigelian enablers. Speaking of Slayde -

48 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I'm picturing a certain character from Invincible yelling "WHY DID YOU MAKE ME DO THIS!?".

Let's not pretend like a victorious Slayde would have had any moral compunctions about arranging the kidnapping of Delthea, when it happened to be convenient to him. This is a knight who, apropos of nothing, attempted to extort food and implied sexual favors from peaceful peasants. Alm isn't morally culpable for any of Slayde's bad behavior.

[Eltosian Kadath]

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Morally dubious how? Desaix had not only betrayed their country to Rigel, he was also responsible for not only the death of the previous king, but also for keeping such "rogue knights" as Slayde in the kingdom's employ. He is absolutely unfit to lead Zofia, and the Deliverance are firmly justified in displacing him and his Rigelian enablers. Speaking of Slayde -

And that previous king was a bit of a monster that was more unfit to rule than Desiax is, and just as happy to have Slayde in his employ. Rigel had some valid grievances with how Lima IV treated them, and they didn't even annex the place outright, just install a Zofian ruler that was willing to work with them. If the Deliverance had anyone...AT ALL... to put on the throne, maybe it wouldn't seem so morally dubious, but they don't, and they were perfectly willing to work with knights that have proven just as rogue as Slayde in the form of Fernand. At this point the Deliverance is fighting for the legacy and "honor" of Lima IV, and even after they invade Rigel itself, they leave Zofia without a ruler at all...

 

42 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Let's not pretend like a victorious Slayde would have had any moral compunctions about arranging the kidnapping of Delthea, when it happened to be convenient to him. This is a knight who, apropos of nothing, attempted to extort food and implied sexual favors from peaceful peasants. Alm isn't morally culpable for any of Slayde's bad behavior.

Slayde might, or might not have arranged the kidnapping at some other time, but Alm certainly created the situation that makes it convenient for Slayde to do so now, and he is culpable for his part in this event.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Other than the inhabitants of the Sage's Hamlet, plus the people of the Rigelian village, although one could argue they were in a similar position to Zeke and Tatiana. I suppose I could add the Rigellian sailors that were being held in Barth's pirate fortress to the list as well.

And how many of them are actually well rounded characters? We don't have a character that is emblematic of "the Rigelian people that are suffering". You say that Alm others rRgel and that we shouldn't, and I agree in terms of morals that they shouldn't, but like I said before, it's the game that is also othering them too. Because Alm's conquest is not depicted as damaging to anyone outside of one alternate scenario that isn't even in continuity with the rest of the series. If a story requires ignoring a large section of the game's plot by making non optimal gameplay choices in order to make thematic sense, then it's not tdoing it's job properly.

Quote

Perhaps I am reading between the lines by hinting that Alm could have killed Slayde, but the game does treat it as partially Alm's fault through Slayde's lines

Slayde is fairly explicit that the reason he had to defect and give away the secret of Delthea was because Alm's forces kicked them out of Zophia Castle. Indirect for sure, but still some clear fault on the side of Alm. If Alm hadn't taken Zophia castle, Delthea would not have been kidnapped. As for Alm not learning about it, not learning about critical information he should is one of his more notable features...

Again that's not my point. It isn't about whether or nor Alm can be blamed for Delthea's enslavement (personally I don't think he can, but what I think on the matter is irrelevant), it's about how the game treats it as a plot point. If the game is not depicting it as his fault in any way, then thematically it being his fault, even if it 100% is, fails. When subtly goes that far into nonexistence then it ceases to be subtly in any way and becomes headcanon. I might personally think Marth is morally unjustified for invading Pyrathi, but so long as the game completely ignores his actions as morally complex, it can't be used to demonstrate how he's morally complex. A story can only really be judged on what it actually says, not what we might want it to say. And as far as Alm's actions goes, nothing in the story ever suggests he should, even unjustly, feel any sort of guilt for what happened to Delthea.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Jotari

[Alastor15243]

22 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Slayde might, or might not have arranged the kidnapping at some other time, but Alm certainly created the situation that makes it convenient for Slayde to do so now, and he is culpable for his part in this event.

That is a fascinating moral philosophy that I do not even slightly agree with in any conceivable aspect.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

35 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

And that previous king was a bit of a monster that was more unfit to rule than Desiax is, and just as happy to have Slayde in his employ. Rigel had some valid grievances with how Lima IV treated them, and they didn't even annex the place outright, just install a Zofian ruler that was willing to work with them. If the Deliverance had anyone...AT ALL... to put on the throne, maybe it wouldn't seem so morally dubious, but they don't, and they were perfectly willing to work with knights that have proven just as rogue as Slayde in the form of Fernand. At this point the Deliverance is fighting for the legacy and "honor" of Lima IV, and even after they invade Rigel itself, they leave Zofia without a ruler at all...

I disagree with the notion that Fernand is as bad as Slayde - the former at least has some vague sense of honor, albeit twisted by personal tragedy. The latter is a scumbag through-and-through. Moreover, the Deliverance doesn't use the name of Lima IV as a rallying cry; rather, it's a "screw Desaix" movement. I will grant that not having a plan for the throne was a failing of the movement (even something as simple as "a well-regarded noble, like Clive, will lead Zofia as regent until a royal succesdor is found" would be better than the "nothing" we got).

40 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Slayde might, or might not have arranged the kidnapping at some other time, but Alm certainly created the situation that makes it convenient for Slayde to do so now, and he is culpable for his part in this event.

By a similar token, then, the Greil Mercenaries could be considered responsible for Mist and Rolf being kidnapped and nearly killed. Since it was done by bandits as a reaction to them defending a town from being attacked. I don't agree with this moral philosophy - the blame for an uncompelled decision (such as kidnapping) rests on the shoulders of those who commit and plan it. And Slayde was never compelled to facilitate Delthea's kidnapping - he could have died in battle, or surrendered, or followed Desaix, or even attempted to flee to the untamed east. Let's not deny our villains their agency, now.

[Alastor15243]

Shadows of Valentia Day 31: Versus Berkut

So, funny thing: I generally find that there's this weird power curve where Alm's group starts out way better and more fun to use, but then at some point along the line, around the point where she gets herself 3 or so dread fighters, Celica's group becomes way, way more powerful and fun to use than Alm's. It's kind of annoying coming back to Alm's group after getting so acquainted with the power level of Celica's actually.

At first I thought the fact that the paladin moved and attacked after the sorcerer used fortify meant that this game didn't have the same turn order AI conditions that I noticed in Shadow Dragon, but then I remembered that fortify has terrible range in this game and wouldn't have healed the paladin anyway.

So Berkut refuses to move until all of his allies outside of his group are dead. This feels... hilariously out-of-character for him given what he's trying to prove, and given that the cutscene right before this just showcased him and Fernand fighting Alm directly.

Ah yes, so, one of the paladins had a javelin, but Alm has a bow now, so he managed to get some chip damage in anyway!

I manage to take out Berkut between Alm, Kliff and a crit from Luthier (who was then promptly warped to safety by Silque), allowing us to take on the remaining enemies from the safety of the trees.

Now then, time for Berkut to snap and activate the mirror...

...And honestly, I feel like this should've been the thing they made a cutscene out of, and not the fight just before. The CG does a decent enough job (though the screaming before it cuts to it seems hilariously weird), but... seriously, this could've been really impressive, having these hands sprout out of the earth in cutscene.

But... Alm prays into Celica's charm, and the magic saves them.

...Yeah, this should've been a cutscene, or at the very least a battle model scene. The transitions in and out of “grabby Duma hand mode” are so abrupt and weird.

So this is, unless I'm quite mistaken, the first time where Alm explicitly states that he loves Celica. It's weird how indirect and off-handed it is, considering that.

It's kinda hilarious that Berkut hasn't commented on the royal sword in Alm's hands.

“But Alm isn't guaranteed to be holding it”, I hear you object.

Yeah, but he is in the cutscene right before this, when Berkut fights him.

...Curious... was this actually something Celica actively did to save them? But can't this cutscene happen after she's been captured by-

...Oh right, no, she doesn't actually become compromised until Act 5. I remember the scene with Alm and Celica on opposite sides of those bars.

So Berkut, in his weakened state, apparently made it all the way back to the castle before we could start another fight. And the game expects me to believe he wasn't in a condition to finish us off if we were “too weak to give chase”?

Yeah, this scene with Berkut smashing things and lashing out at Rinea really cements to me that they definitely needed to do more to make their love believable. I haven't seen jack shit from Berkut that would make me understand why such a sweet and gentle soul like Rinea would fall in love with him.

That said... his mounting desperation here is pretty well-executed. Like, they're foreshadowing the shit this guy will do in order to gain power, abandoning his pride and hatred of the Duma Faithful's methods and becoming just like them at horrific cost to what he holds dear, and I totally believe it. It's a far more compelling and convincing descent into desperation and surrender to Duma than Celica's will ever be, even though I don't find the character behind it all that interesting as he is.

...Well, the sluice is just about the shittiest place I've ever seen to be ambushed. I went back to forge the killer bow, a witch reinforcement showed up, and I forgot that only the actual circular interior tile was safe from enemies coming in, and not the separate tile right next to it. My army was scattered all over the map, on either side of a bottleneck with no escape, and all my best units were way too far away to do anything useful.

The rate of reinforcement spawning seems to be incredibly random, because this time I made it all the way to the Smithy, some of the way past it, and even some of the way back, before a witch spawned. Whatever though, time to fight this dread fighter battalion.

So this is where the game gives you the clue, through Lukas, that you might want to fight Nuibaba before going on to take on the other route. Good that that clue is there, and I like how Lukas phrases it pragmatically, in terms of improving their PR with the Rigelian masses by liberating them from shitty local rulers.

I must say though, that I'm missing Celica's dread fighters something fierce here, given all the enemies nobody can double. I've got plenty of units with good speed, but none capable of doubling a dread fighter. Guess I'll have to rely on brave arts then.

Witches seem to be getting more and more warp happy, and what's weird is that the game seems to recognize how broken and unfair this is, and refuses to send more in to attack a specific unit than could realistically kill them, and that that's the only reason my group survived. Those three witches who warped in this turn could've done so much more damage if more than one of them attacked someone who wasn't Kliff.

I have to say, I've barely found much use for Clair after promoting her, unfortunately. There just aren't nearly as many terrors in Alm's path as there are in Celica's, which makes a pretty drastic difference in how useful anti-terror damage is.

...Xaizor's dying quote, begging Emperor Rudolf for forgiveness for failing to accomplish his goals... really just paints how fucked up of a person Emperor Rudolf is for sending all of these undyingly loyal soldiers of his into a battle where he hopes they will all die.

Silque got expel. I wonder if I'll ever find a use for it. I remember in Gaiden that the one time I thought to use it, it was completely useless.

...Okay, so, Alm saying that hearing Celica “is going to sound crazy”... is kinda hilariously dumb in this situation, where I've already had Celica talk to Alm via magic.

...Okay, I don't remember the specifics of this, but I'm pretty sure this isn't actually Celica. The fact that Celica's crying out for help this way when the real Celica is bottling up all of her problems and wouldn't even think of asking for help from Alm with them, not to mention the purple (read: evil) cloud effects surrounding the frame whenever she talks, makes me think this is some trick from someone.

...Yeah, it's from Nuibaba. Fake Celica is telling Alm she's held prisoner in Nuibaba's abode, which... uh... I have this very strong feeling that having that Halcyon-facilitated conversation happen so early on makes this ridiculous, but I can't point to the specific reason why.

But at least Alm has his doubts that it's “really her”.

So yeah, Nuibaba wants a brand bearer's soul to give her eternal life. Curiously, she says she'll “not let the likes of Jedah claim a bearer of the Brand” (fuck, apparently Brand is capitalized? Fuck off)... despite the Brand bearer they're each going after being completely different.

Alright, let's see if we can do one more battle and get up to the dungeon. Let's see how bad it is with that witch reinforcement...

...Yeah no fucking thanks. I'm not taking this on when it has more witches than it needs to. Especially not now that I know what they're capable of.

...Yeah no, also, Gray just got the go-ahead to become a dread fighter. I'm thinking I'll promote him first.

Gray and Tobin have their A support now, and again, this is hard to be too interested in when it relies on a relationship I don't remotely find compelling.

...Okay, so, Gray's a dread fighter and got significantly better stats from it than Celica's dread fighters did, including a nice attack boost. Which is making me think it might finally be time to make him ditch the thunder sword and that fixed 15 damage you can barely improve with expensive forges.

Ugh. I thought I forgot to un-deploy my dead weight, but then I realized that you have no control over who you bring to skirmishes.

And I have to fight two skirmishes full of witches.

...AND IF THEY CAN ONE-ROUND SOMEONE, THEY WILL.

...Python's down because a witch warped to kill him in one round.

...That's it, I'm bookmarking. If by tomorrow morning I can't think of a way to keep Python alive, I'm continuing from the bookmark and just leaving him for dead.

Stay safe, everyone.

Stay safer than Python.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Venger_06]

36 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Python's down because a witch warped to kill him in one round.

...That's it, I'm bookmarking. If by tomorrow morning I can't think of a way to keep Python alive, I'm continuing from the bookmark and just leaving him for dead.

Stay safe, everyone.

Stay safer than Python.

That's why we make Kliff an Archer.

[Eltosian Kadath]

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And how many of them are actually well rounded characters?

You asked for positive, or well rounded characters, and most of these would fall under positive at least. If the example you used of Masena was meant to be a well rounded character, than most pass that low bar, which feels appropriate seeing as your premise about excluding player characters invalidated well over 90% of all characters one could seriously consider well rounded in the entire series, and well rounded is subjective enough that the argument that no well rounded characters exist in the franchise at all isn't out of the question.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

We don't have a character that is emblematic of "the Rigelian people that are suffering".

This wasn't what you were asking for before, but there are some. From the young fisherman complaining about how the war is keeping Rigel from dealing with real problems, to some of the people in the Sage's complaints about what the experiments of the Duma faithful have done to the environment, or the one that sacrifices himself to share the secret of Jedah's immortality. Although if you meant

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Because Alm's conquest is not depicted as damaging to anyone outside of one alternate scenario that isn't even in continuity with the rest of the series.

specifically suffering because of Alm's invasion, than not really, but as I said before, they could have done a better job here.

 

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Again that's not my point. It isn't about whether or nor Alm can be blamed for Delthea's enslavement (personally I don't think he can, but what I think on the matter is irrelevant), it's about how the game treats it as a plot point. If the game is not depicting it as his fault in any way, then thematically it being his fault, even if it 100% is, fails. When subtly goes that far into nonexistence then it ceases to be subtly in any way and becomes headcanon

You might have missed that I literally quoted the game. This isn't coming from headcanon, it is a part of the game that everyone experiences, which was the point of that statement. You can question my interpretation, or the importance of that quote, but you can't just headcanon away quotes from the game.

 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

By a similar token, then, the Greil Mercenaries could be considered responsible for Mist and Rolf being kidnapped and nearly killed. Since it was done by bandits as a reaction to them defending a town from being attacked.

It a small bit of bad that came with a large helping of good. Most acts have a smattering of both, and the important thing is to weigh their importance. Although leaving the kids alone to be kidnapped wasn't the best of looks...

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

And Slayde was never compelled to facilitate Delthea's kidnapping - he could have died in battle, or surrendered, or followed Desaix, or even attempted to flee to the untamed east. Let's not deny our villains their agency, now.

That is a fair point, although Slayde is rather explicit about the reason behind his actions...

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

So Berkut refuses to move until all of his allies outside of his group are dead. This feels... hilariously out-of-character for him given what he's trying to prove, and given that the cutscene right before this just showcased him and Fernand fighting Alm directly.

That is not entirely the case, as I learned the hard way in my ironman, although it is late into the fight before he starts moving.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

...Well, the sluice is just about the shittiest place I've ever seen to be ambushed. I went back to forge the killer bow, a witch reinforcement showed up, and I forgot that only the actual circular interior tile was safe from enemies coming in, and not the separate tile right next to it. My army was scattered all over the map, on either side of a bottleneck with no escape, and all my best units were way too far away to do anything useful.

Map ambushes are rather worrying...yeah quite a few units died to those on my ironman...speaking of which I should get back to that.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Alright, let's see if we can do one more battle and get up to the dungeon. Let's see how bad it is with that witch reinforcement...

Extra witch reinforcements on the witch spawning map...yeah that doesn't sound fun.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

...AND IF THEY CAN ONE-ROUND SOMEONE, THEY WILL.

...Python's down because a witch warped to kill him in one round.

...That's it, I'm bookmarking. If by tomorrow morning I can't think of a way to keep Python alive, I'm continuing from the bookmark and just leaving him for dead.

Stay safe, everyone.

Stay safer than Python.

...RIP, I guess you will have to hit up the revival waters in the Fear Mountain Shrine.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

That said... his mounting desperation here is pretty well-executed. Like, they're foreshadowing the shit this guy will do in order to gain power, abandoning his pride and hatred of the Duma Faithful's methods and becoming just like them at horrific cost to what he holds dear, and I totally believe it. It's a far more compelling and convincing descent into desperation and surrender to Duma than Celica's will ever be, even though I don't find the character behind it all that interesting as he is.

Ian Sinclair sells the descent into madness really damn well.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

..Curious... was this actually something Celica actively did to save them? But can't this cutscene happen after she's been captured by-

My interpretation is, the aid comes from the charm, not directly from Celica. So she's not explicitly aware of the danger he's in at that moment. But I could be wrong.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

And I have to fight two skirmishes full of witches.

...AND IF THEY CAN ONE-ROUND SOMEONE, THEY WILL.

Witch AI is one of those divine mysteries, which I am sure Kaga will take to his grave.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

So, funny thing: I generally find that there's this weird power curve where Alm's group starts out way better and more fun to use, but then at some point along the line, around the point where she gets herself 3 or so dread fighters, Celica's group becomes way, way more powerful and fun to use than Alm's. It's kind of annoying coming back to Alm's group after getting so acquainted with the power level of Celica's actually.

Would you say that you... dread going back to Team Alm?

[Jotari]

 

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Silque got expel. I wonder if I'll ever find a use for it. I remember in Gaiden that the one time I thought to use it, it was completely useless.

I think it's pretty useful for the draco zombie spam. But if you do all of Celica's route before Alm's, you can just walk right through the volcano without facing any battles at all iirc.

 

Quote

...Okay, so, Alm's a dread fighter and got significantly better stats from it than Celica's dread fighters did, including a nice attack boost. Which is making me think it might finally be time to make him ditch the thunder sword and that fixed 15 damage you can barely improve with expensive forges.

Typo. This isn't Awakening XD

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

You asked for positive, or well rounded characters, and most of these would fall under positive at least. If the example you used of Masena was meant to be a well rounded character, than most pass that low bar, which feels appropriate seeing as your premise about excluding player characters invalidated well over 90% of all characters one could seriously consider well rounded in the entire series, and well rounded is subjective enough that the argument that no well rounded characters exist in the franchise at all isn't out of the question.

This wasn't what you were asking for before, but there are some. From the young fisherman complaining about how the war is keeping Rigel from dealing with real problems, to some of the people in the Sage's complaints about what the experiments of the Duma faithful have done to the environment, or the one that sacrifices himself to share the secret of Jedah's immortality. Although if you meant

Okay, I'll rephrase. Those random NPCs are not plot significant, nor even all that positive characters. They are neutral world building fluff characters. Such interactions can enhance the themes of the story, but it's a very shaky foundation if you're building the entire theme upon nameless blacksmiths. Nothing about them conveys uniqueness, integrity or even notoriety in the face of the hoards of soldiers and cultists Alm cuts down without any acknowledgement of immorality. Do they help to make Rigel less othered? Yes, a small bit, but far less so than if there was actually a real plot point of the narrative that they were supporting.

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specifically suffering because of Alm's invasion, than not really, but as I said before, they could have done a better job here.

Well yes, that's what I've been saying from the start. Like I said, I get how you feel about the story and Alm specifically, because that's the way I want the story to be. But I just find it completely fails to deliver on several key points.

Quote

You might have missed that I literally quoted the game. This isn't coming from headcanon, it is a part of the game that everyone experiences, which was the point of that statement. You can question my interpretation, or the importance of that quote, but you can't just headcanon away quotes from the game.

That quote isn't putting the blame on Alm though. It's explaining away why Slayde survives, but it's not actually placing blame on Alm. And even if it were, the quote is that Alm is too soft, when the whole conceit of your argument is the opposite, that Alm isn't soft enough and that his resolve is causing pain to others. So your one singular expample of Alm being blamed for something is line directed about him when he's not around which blames him for being the opposite of what you say the theming is suggesting him to be, and the consequences of his actions being a villain that was already committing evil continues to do so of his own volition.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Jotari

[Alastor15243]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Typo. This isn't Awakening XD

Ugh. That was me routinely calling Gray Alm for reasons I cannot process, and I didn't catch it this time.