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Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.


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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

That quote isn't putting the blame on Alm though. It's explaining away why Slayde survives, but it's not actually placing blame on Alm.

It does if you ignore what Slayde actually says. Alm was the driving factor in the Deliverance taking Zofia Castle, and Slayde states his motives for his actions as the fall of Zofia Castle.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And even if it were, the quote is that Alm is too soft, when the whole conceit of your argument is the opposite, that Alm isn't soft enough and that his resolve is causing pain to others

I already conceded that the possibility of killing Slayde for a better outcome was me reading into things. Alm's resolve to take Zofia Castle leads to Slayde hurting Delthea. Sure it is indirect, and the game suggests no alternate outcome that magically invalidates all the meaning it could possibly have, but it still fits the paradigm.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

So your one singular expample of Alm being blamed for something is line directed about him when he's not around which blames him for being the opposite of what you say the theming is suggesting him to be

Wasn't the singular example I had, I was just pointing out that the specific hypothetical example you were using for how you would want things to be done in SoV, is something the games already does, although more indirectly than it sounds like you wanted, although...

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

and the consequences of his actions being a villain that was already committing evil continues to do so of his own volition.

...How else would Alm's actions result in a villain kidnapping Delthea? What did you want from this Delthea hypothetical?

 

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Hmm, so, you would say Alm causing Slayde to sell off the Forest Village's location in exchange of joining Rigel is not unlike Desaix deciding the day Alm comes knocking on his fortress to be the day he executes Mathilda?

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6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Hmm, so, you would say Alm causing Slayde to sell off the Forest Village's location in exchange of joining Rigel is not unlike Desaix deciding the day Alm comes knocking on his fortress to be the day he executes Mathilda?

The double negative is a little confusing, but I do think those two events are similar.

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8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It does if you ignore what Slayde actually says. Alm was the driving factor in the Deliverance taking Zofia Castle, and Slayde states his motives for his actions as the fall of Zofia Castle.

I already conceded that the possibility of killing Slayde for a better outcome was me reading into things. Alm's resolve to take Zofia Castle leads to Slayde hurting Delthea. Sure it is indirect, and the game suggests no alternate outcome that magically invalidates all the meaning it could possibly have, but it still fits the paradigm.

Wasn't the singular example I had, I was just pointing out that the specific hypothetical example you were using for how you would want things to be done in SoV, is something the games already does, although more indirectly than it sounds like you wanted, although...

No, because the whole point of this is that Alm by choosing war and aggression is leading people to suffering. That is what Celica accuses him of. But this example of Slayde is Alm choosing mercy by, in Slayde's words, being too soft. If we pretend Alm being blamed for Delthea makes any kind of sense and the game is actually blaming Alm (I don't think it is), it still fails as a criticism of Alm since it's advertising him for being too much like Celica rather than the opposite, further solidifying the Celica is always in the wrong issue people have with the dichotomy of the two characters.

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

...How else would Alm's actions result in a villain kidnapping Delthea? What did you want from this Delthea hypothetical?

Like I said, even if someone blamed him unjustly for it, it would still work to highlight it to Alm. I don't think Alm can be reasonably blamed for what happened to Delthea, but if someone like Luther in a fit of anger actually does blame Alm, then the game is acknowledging that people are being hurt and that Alm is involved in a conflict where people will be brought to harm no matter what he chooses to do. So basically I'm saying the game could use your ass backwards logic to further Alm's story arc, but it doesn't. Nothing about what happens to Delthea nor anyone else, is laid at the feet of Alm. Celica tells him innocents will die if he chooses war, but the game doesn't actually deliver on that at all with Alm's war being smooth saililng from start to finish, with only the final event of Rudolf's death being anything like a tragedy, and it's only a tragedy for him personally, and not the people of Rigel or Zofia.

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Shadows of Valentia Day 32: Fuck it, Python's dead

Yeah no, I'm cutting the dead weight loose. Maybe I'll use the revival shrine on him, but from here on out keeping Python, Lukas and Forsyth alive would be an exercise in unfathomable agony.

...Man, it would be great if I could get a brave sword for Gray. How do you forge those...?

...Ah, I can forge a brave sword out of a silver sword. Got it. Alright, I'll keep that in mind.

Strangely, Forsyth didn't speak up with his reaction to Python's death. Somebody else did.

Also, weirdly, when two skirmish teams double up on a spot, when the one actually on the spot moves away... the one doubling up still stands to the side of the area rather than moving directly onto it. That feels like a glitch.

...It's kind of-

...Wait.

...Wait, you can choose your units in skirmishes?

I could've sworn I didn't get that option last time! But here it is, plain as day!

Ugh. Okay, guess I'll just bring Python back at Fear Mountain. I already saved, so it's too late to go back and re-do it.

Another thing that annoys me is that if you lose a unit, you also lose a deployment position. I don't see an empty blue square where Python used to be. The viable blue spaces the game shows you for where you can place your units is always equal to the number you actually have, meaning that if you lose units, you don't have an empty blue spot on the map for placement. That spot just never shows up. That feels amazingly pointless.

One thing that's kind of annoying about the weird, simplified combat menu is that the damage prediction will count enemy spell cost even for the last attack of the round when it says damage will be lethal. So, for example, I used hunter's volley on this mire sorcerer, and I couldn't help but notice it said the guy would surely die, but of course, units don't kill themselves with their own magic, so I knew in reality I needed a crit.

Okay, so I'm fighting the Fear Mountain map, and this dialogue scene with Alm trying to get through to Marla the witch is... well it seems nice at first, but then you realize how utterly idiotic it is that it would be happening now, given that Alm, bare minimum, has fought like a dozen witches already, and only now is he attempting in vain to talk one of them out of it only to be told that nothing short of death will release her from Duma's control. It's like one of those scenes in a movie where people are talking while in a car or plane or something, and then they arrive at their destination right after the conversation, implying they've already been in that vehicle for a shitton of time, and you go “so they're just talking about this now?”.

Anyway, I'm having my main group go up to fight Marla while Kliff takes on the southern division with all the snipers. The knights will be a bit of a problem, but he'll be able to handle them eventually with enough crits.

OH SO SHE JUST SUMMONS WITCHES LIKE A CANTOR SUMMONS TERRORS. WONDERFUL.

Okay, so, it seems only one will teleport per turn, if I can trust that. Now that most of the enemies down south are gone, I can bring Kliff in to help out with these witches, especially now that two of the barons are gone.

Faye is turning out to be absurdly useful in combat with her Alm support boosting her nosferatu accuracy. She can tank against these knights and help soften up multiple at once.

Looks like Luthier can become a sage now. Great. Yeah, he's been surprisingly useful with his excalibur against these knights.

Marla goes down pretty swiftly to a hunter's volley, and the remaining armor knights fall soon after.

Alright, time for the Fear Mountain shrine.

Unfortunately I have one too many units to bring everyone I want to bring. So I guess I'll ditch Delthea. I don't know how tough this place will be.

Ooh, new dungeon music! Nice! Pretty creepy.

...But apparently this is the lowest point in Valentia. The underground of what the map says is the highest point in Valentia. Wow, that's a pretty big contrast.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be terrors in this cave (which I was hoping for to aid Clair), but sorcerers.

...Way, way too many of them. I have to retreat and have Kliff handle this, because there's no way I can take out all of these guys in one turn.

Alright, so the statue challenged me to a duel, and I accepted. Hunter's volley made short work of the necrodragon, and the sage and sniper should go down on enemy phase. The two barons will have to be taken out by magic on player-phase though.

So now I get a lance called Duma's Lance. I don't remember this. Hm... let's give it to Clair and see if that helps her out.

Alright, so we're at the shrine, and now Luthier's a sage. I wish this gave him more of value besides better exp gain and 1 HP.

...Oh right, +10% magic accuracy and recover. That's always awesome!

So apparently Mathilda has four sisters. I can't help but wonder what reasoning Alm might have had when he asked her that, considering how he reacted upon first meeting her...

So there are two paths out of this shrine. I'll be going down both of them, but let's see...

Right first!

...Okay, so this is the gate I needed to fight that statue to open.

Okay, so here, the left is the gate of the dead and the right is the gate of the living. Now, the Mila statue told me the gate of the living is really dangerous.

...Did I save?

...I should save again.

...This place is fucking ginormous.

...And it's got level thirty zombies with 20 attack and venin/numbing claws.

...Well that's obscenely shitty.

So, enemy default weapons can have attack power on them. Which, unlike with proper equipped weapons... won't be added to their attack total on the unit info screen.

Also, level 30 zombies give barely any experience, shittily enough.

Thankfully they have terrible movement, so I managed to take them out eventually through kiting and liberal Kliff use.

Oooh, Alm and Clair A support!

...Weirdly, this one actually ends... in a way that vaguely hints they could get together. It's cute, but again, really short, too short to get any real closure going. But given how hopeless this relationship is, it's weird that they end it on this note.

...Uh...

...This cave is actually proving to be pretty intimidating, and pretty ridiculously huge. I think I'm gonna have to stop this here and pick it up tomorrow. Before I find out what these warp gates do.

Stay safe, everyone.

Edited by Alastor15243
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45 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Okay, so, it seems only one will teleport per turn, if I can trust that.

We're talking Witch AI, so that's an "if" the suze of Thabes.

45 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So now I get a lance called Duma's Lance. I don't remember this. Hm... let's give it to Clair and see if that helps her out.

Duma's Lance teaches the Vendetta art, which works like Vengeance in Three Houses. It's pretty neat, despite being in a game with far fewer tools for a "low HP" build.

47 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So apparently Mathilda has four sisters. I can't help but wonder what reasoning Alm might have had when he asked her that, considering how he reacted upon first meeting her...

Don't let Faye overhear, or those sisters are as good as dead.

51 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Okay, so I'm fighting the Fear Mountain map, and this dialogue scene with Alm trying to get through to Marla the witch is... well it seems nice at first, but then you realize how utterly idiotic it is that it would be happening now, given that Alm, bare minimum, has fought like a dozen witches already, and only now is he attempting in vain to talk one of them out of it only to be told that nothing short of death will release her from Duma's control. It's like one of those scenes in a movie where people are talking while in a car or plane or something, and then they arrive at their destination right after the conversation, implying they've already been in that vehicle for a shitton of time, and you go “so they're just talking about this now?”.

Another counter-point to "Alm's recklessness and thirst for battle get him into trouble." No, in this case, he's supposed to charge in without mercy. If anything, his reluctance to kill (a trait commonly ascribed to Celica) presents more of a threat to himself and others.

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Shadows of Valentia Day 32: Fuck it, Python's dead

Yeah no, I'm cutting the dead weight loose. Maybe I'll use the revival shrine on him, but from here on out keeping Python, Lukas and Forsyth alive would be an exercise in unfathomable agony.

 

Yeah, despite it's small cast and full deployment limit, Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia still weirdly works like a regular Fire Emblem in that eventually units will start under performing and fall behind. It's almost like the game was never designed for it's above 10 deployment limits yet it just went with them anyway.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

One thing that's kind of annoying about the weird, simplified combat menu is that the damage prediction will count enemy spell cost even for the last attack of the round when it says damage will be lethal. So, for example, I used hunter's volley on this mire sorcerer, and I couldn't help but notice it said the guy would surely die, but of course, units don't kill themselves with their own magic, so I knew in reality I needed a crit.

 

It is possible for you to miss, so the highlighting for how much damage the enemy does is still somewhat useful.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Okay, so I'm fighting the Fear Mountain map, and this dialogue scene with Alm trying to get through to Marla the witch is... well it seems nice at first, but then you realize how utterly idiotic it is that it would be happening now, given that Alm, bare minimum, has fought like a dozen witches already, and only now is he attempting in vain to talk one of them out of it only to be told that nothing short of death will release her from Duma's control. It's like one of those scenes in a movie where people are talking while in a car or plane or something, and then they arrive at their destination right after the conversation, implying they've already been in that vehicle for a shitton of time, and you go “so they're just talking about this now?”.

 

Yes, but the other Witches didn't have a name! XD Subnote, I really like the voice actors they got for Marla and Hestia. Though I do kind of miss

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

OH SO SHE JUST SUMMONS WITCHES LIKE A CANTOR SUMMONS TERRORS. WONDERFUL.

Gotta wonder how she's actually doing that. Is she actually creating zombies ala cantors? Or is she just ordering witches from across the continent to her location?

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Flayn is turning out to be absurdly useful in combat with her Alm support boosting her nosferatu accuracy. She can tank against these knights and help soften up multiple at once.

 

Supports boost Nosfeatu's hit? Huh, I never noticed that. I thought it's accuracy was hard coded and that's why it could be used to defeat Duma.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

...This cave is actually proving to be pretty intimidating, and pretty ridiculously huge. I think I'm gonna have to stop this here and pick it up tomorrow. Before I find out what these warp gates do.

Stay safe, everyone.

Yeah, Fear Mountain is like the only proper dungeon in the game outside of Thabes and the End Game.

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13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Supports boost Nosfeatu's hit? Huh, I never noticed that. I thought it's accuracy was hard coded and that's why it could be used to defeat Duma.

To be fair, it's just another spell. It's the HP Leeching effect coded to Nosferatu that has to do more on why it can bypass the one in charge of Duma's damage reduction. Well, at least in Gaiden. For SoV it is more likely that it was coded to be deliberate to bypass it in order to stay faithful to the source.

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Shadows of Valentia Day 33: Escape from Fear Mountain

So first thing I stumble into after resuming the game is a skirmish guarding a chest, and I unlock Mathilda and Clive's A support. It's, uh...

...what I will say in its favor is that I love the line “and here I thought I could never love you more” from Mathilda. But this is where the series once again briefly broaches on the topic of “sexism in the fantasy military”, something I've previously stated I don't think games like this have any business doing if they're going with the premise that physical performance differences between the sexes don't exist (which Mathilda all but explicitly states is the case in this conversation). It's nothing obnoxiously preachy or anything, and I like that Clair is the guilty party here rather than some random off-screen chauvinistic douche, but that doesn't change the fact that this conversation has almost nothing of value or insight to say here that hasn't been said to death a million times.

I do find it amusing though that the writers seem to yet again be blatantly aware of how much better than Clive Mathilda is, given this entire conversation is basically the aftermath of Clair going up to Mathilda and telling her “you're showing up and embarrassing your lord-husband-to-be”.

Also, interesting to note that both Clive (genuinely) and Alm (sort of tongue-in-cheek-ingly) refer to Mathilda and Clair as “valkyries” on the battlefield in their A supports.

I then got the hexlock shield and promptly got into a fight with a handful of zombies and bonewalkers where Kliff proceeded to die to a 37% hit, 6% crit one-hit kill from a 29-attack entombed because this game thinks it's okay to give fifteen fucking crit to a random mook in a game where crit avoid is only half your luck and the game doesn't even tell you what ANY OF YOUR GODDAMNED CALCULATED STATS ARE.

We all on the same page about this?

About how this is unacceptably bullshit?

About how this is something that should not in any way be accepted as totally normal in a Fire Emblem game, given that plenty of games have figured out ways to make this shit avoidable or at least recognizable?

About the fact that Mila's Turnwheel being added to “address” this is nothing but a fucking plank of wood over a pothole like that sleazy politician in that “Hey Arnold!” episode?

Good!

I'm glad!

That being established...

...I'm going to use Mila's Turnwheel so I don't needlessly prolong this already unacceptably-long playthrough of this game by redoing this entire dungeon from scratch out of spite for a system I despise with every fiber of my being.

Okay, let's try this again. Enemy-phasing even a little, even with terrain cover, is apparently not in the cards here. So instead, let's do something completely bullshit and WDLR this shit.

What's WLDR?

Warp, Double Lion, Rescue.

There. The entombed has been put back in his tomb. Now to do a hunter's volley from the pillar and soften up this group to finish off on player phase 2.

Now, thinking about it and discovering I do in fact have viable counters to those damned entombed does not in any way lessen my anger at this game's crit system, to be clear. It's still completely horseshit that the game's unit info screen doesn't even calculate a unit's crit rate, much less their crit avoid, and the fewer methods a game gives to bolster your own crit resistance, the less I tend to think of it in general. But I will concede that this was indeed an enemy I didn't have to risk a crit against, and that I wasn't thinking of all of my options or paying attention to all of an enemy's stats when Kliff got into trouble like that. I'm not saying that I consider that encounter intelligently or even competently designed, I'm just saying that I could have played better than I did right before I flew off the handle at this game's genuinely nonsensical crit system.

Which is actually what pisses me off so much about the argument that the turnwheel “lets me fix it when I didn't deserve to die”. Either a: that death was totally avoidable and you're just blaming the game for your own failings, or b: the thing that killed you was genuinely bullshit, and thus has no business being in the game. And in neither scenario is granting the player immunity to the fail state an appropriate way to address the issue.

...Sorry, I also might just be on edge because I've been playing XCOM lately with some friends, and one of my biggest pet peeves about that game is how a perfectly healthy high-level soldier with solid terrain cover can be instantly one-hit killed by some random mook getting a lucky crit, which happened psychotically often during our most recent play session together. I was just telling my friend that the permadeath game I'm used to playing, Fire Emblem, generally has characters die less arbitrarily and with more dignity than that.

...Cue my play session today, where a perfectly healthy high-level soldier with solid terrain cover gets instantly killed by some random mook getting a lucky crit.

...Yeah, uh, moving on.

I decided to use that portal I mentioned last time, only to discover that it warps you right back to the start of the shrine, where I was promptly surrounded by mages again. Thank goodness I swept the room for treasure first (I chose the blessed shield, not the silver once, since I figure I can just forge silver if I really want it).

Okay, Gray and Clair's A support.

I've already said my piece on this relationship. I will say no more, because this has done absolutely nothing to change my mind about how terrible this game has been at convincing me they belong together.

Yeah, just to be clear, just for the sake of getting this game over with and not wasting any of your time, I'm going to be using the turnwheel in dungeons if it proves necessary to prevent starting over a large amount of gameplay.

Mathilda reached level 10, so she's a gold knight now, or will be once I reach the shrine when heading back in to do the rest of this dungeon. Let's see what she gets!

8 HP, 1 attack, 5 defense, and 1 mov. Pretty dang excellent! Hopefully Clive gets some speed when he promotes in a level or two. Maybe then these two will actually manage to break into actively useful rather than filler middling player-phase units.

Woo! Alm unlocked scendscale!

...Yeah, this is a bit of a letdown compared to Double Lion. This is practically doing more damage to Alm than it's doing to the bonewalker.

Damned if the animation isn't cool though.

...Alright, so looks like I discovered everything of value in the eastern cavern the first time around, so time to check out the “gate of the dead” or whatever.

I have to say, I'm not sure how I'd handle mire sorcerers if I didn't have Kliff. The combination of good resistance and the range to counter-attack them is a ridiculous godsend against them, and in the late-game they generally come in numbers it would be outright suicidal to attempt to player-phase. I wonder how many other counters to these guys there actually are, because it doesn't feel like there are many.

I just fought a witch who chose to warp... to attack somebody she was already in attacking range of.

Alright, found the revival fountain, time to bring back Python. I also got a shadow sword and a cog, so I'll be making a brave sword for Gray promptly.

I'm almost done searching the place, and I just got Clive to level 10, so he'll be a gold knight upon exiting. Once I get back to the save point, I'll be done for today, because this took a while.

Clive only got one speed from his promotion, bringing him to 12, but the attack, defense and HP bonuses are still much appreciated. I'm wondering how useful he'll be from here on out. I generally find that cavalry, unless they've just come out of the dread fighter loop, generally lack the stats to be particularly good at or useful for anything in the endgame.

Right, now to check that western path out of the shrine.

Ah, fountains. Luck or speed. Obviously we're going with speed, but for who?

I'd be tempted to give it all to Kliff, but nah, at this point I think he has plenty for his purposes, and I want Alm to be as fast as he can be when fighting those obnoxious duplicating eyeballs at the end of the game. Especially since Falchion doesn't have double lion.

Alright, that's the end of the dungeon then. Next time, then, we'll be fighting Nuibaba, and probably cheesing the shit out of her with WDLR.

Stay safe, everyone!

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

I then got the hexlock shield and promptly got into a fight with a handful of zombies and bonewalkers where Kliff proceeded to die to a 37% hit, 6% crit one-hit kill from a 29-attack entombed because this game thinks it's okay to give fifteen fucking crit to a random mook in a game where crit avoid is only half your luck and the game doesn't even tell you what ANY OF YOUR GODDAMNED CALCULATED STATS ARE.

 

Oh wow. The odds of that killing were something like 2%. I guess you're still paying off that 1% dodge you got with Sumia in Awakening XD

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

We all on the same page about this?

About how this is unacceptably bullshit?

About how this is something that should not in any way be accepted as totally normal in a Fire Emblem game, given that plenty of games have figured out ways to make this shit avoidable or at least recognizable?

 

I wouldn't say I'm on the page of "the game must give me the resources to completely eliminate the chance of enemy critical hits". I lean much more to "crits in general should be nerfed so they're less likely to be one hit kills." I'm fine with enemies having a slight chance to deal increased damage that I need to factor in, I'm not fine with that extra damage typically being so hih that it causes a reset whenever it happens.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Woo! Alm unlocked scendscale!

...Yeah, this is a bit of a letdown compared to Double Lion. This is practically doing more damage to Alm than it's doing to the bonewalker.

Damned if the animation isn't cool though.

Yeah, Double Lion, or just plain attacking, is usually better than Scendscale. It is useful in that it has 3 range though. But then the legendary combat art of the main character still pales in comparison to Hunter's Volley. The lowly Killing Bow is mighter than the King's Fang.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Clive only got one speed from his promotion, bringing him to 12, but the attack, defense and HP bonuses are still much appreciated. I'm wondering how useful he'll be from here on out. I generally find that cavalry, unless they've just come out of the dread fighter loop, generally lack the stats to be particularly good at or useful for anything in the endgame.

Zeke and Mycen both have pretty decent stats, but the swamp in the final level hinders them from helping to take down Duma.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

I'd be tempted to give it all to Kliff, but nah, at this point I think he has plenty for his purposes, and I want Alm to be as fast as he can be when fighting those obnoxious duplicating eyeballs at the end of the game. Especially since Falchion doesn't have double lion.

Not only does Falchion lack Double Lion, but the Royal Sword will statistically be better than the Falcion during end game if you upgrade it, supporting the same might but an additional 20% hit and 15% crit. You can upgrade the Falchion in the post game once giving it 2 more might than the Royal Sword and the same hit%, but the Royal Sword is still probably better with its additional crit and Double Lion. Of course, the Killer Bow manages to beat both of them.

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6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I do find it amusing though that the writers seem to yet again be blatantly aware of how much better than Clive Mathilda is, given this entire conversation is basically the aftermath of Clair going up to Mathilda and telling her “you're showing up and embarrassing your lord-husband-to-be”.

But Clive is a better unit than Mathilda though. To quote someone, "Clive is a good unit that tricks you into thinking he's a bad unit due to the ways in which he's good not being immediately obvious to casual players. It's a weird situation."

Mathilda is mediocre, as she has a bunch of major weaknesses that hold her back, like her horrible join level, joining bulk and availability (missing out on a full half of the game, and many of the hardest maps except for the 3 act 4 ones, where she’s bad).

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6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

That being established...

...I'm going to use Mila's Turnwheel so I don't needlessly prolong this already unacceptably-long playthrough of this game by redoing this entire dungeon from scratch out of spite for a system I despise with every fiber of my being.

He finally did it. Alastor surrendered his soul to Maeda.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Now, thinking about it and discovering I do in fact have viable counters to those damned entombed does not in any way lessen my anger at this game's crit system, to be clear. It's still completely horseshit that the game's unit info screen doesn't even calculate a unit's crit rate, much less their crit avoid, and the fewer methods a game gives to bolster your own crit resistance, the less I tend to think of it in general. But I will concede that this was indeed an enemy I didn't have to risk a crit against, and that I wasn't thinking of all of my options or paying attention to all of an enemy's stats when Kliff got into trouble like that. I'm not saying that I consider that encounter intelligently or even competently designed, I'm just saying that I could have played better than I did right before I flew off the handle at this game's genuinely nonsensical crit system.

Do any games in the series explicitly list critical avoid (also called, more concisely but less clearly, dodge)? It's one of the few relevant stats that 3H's display is missing. They ought to, of course, but this failing is hardly unique to Echoes.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Which is actually what pisses me off so much about the argument that the turnwheel “lets me fix it when I didn't deserve to die”. Either a: that death was totally avoidable and you're just blaming the game for your own failings, or b: the thing that killed you was genuinely bullshit, and thus has no business being in the game. And in neither scenario is granting the player immunity to the fail state an appropriate way to address the issue.

The thing is, I don't believe the thought process was "this aspect of game design is bad, so we should ameliorate it with a rewind mechanic". It's more likely that the developers never recognized what you and others have cast as "bad game design" as such. That instead, they intended the turnwheel as a design-agnostic, quality-of-life feature. In which case, the fault would lay not with the feature itself, but with the failure to identify the perceived "bad game design". I could be wrong, since either way, this is speculative. 

Anyway, Genealogy still had the best "answer" to low-percentage crits, by locking the ability to crit behind a rare skill. But there seem to be few fans of locking previously-fundamental abilities (such as Critical or Pursuit) behind skills.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

just fought a witch who chose to warp... to attack somebody she was already in attacking range of.

WitchA_IRL

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Clive only got one speed from his promotion, bringing him to 12, but the attack, defense and HP bonuses are still much appreciated. I'm wondering how useful he'll be from here on out. I generally find that cavalry, unless they've just come out of the dread fighter loop, generally lack the stats to be particularly good at or useful for anything in the endgame.

I tend to like them for providing chunk damage with great offensive range, while also having fair physical bulk. Mycen with the Gradivoo was good help in Thabes, while they can also enjoy the Duma's or Blessed Lance. None of them are game-breakers, admittedly. 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Zeke and Mycen both have pretty decent stats, but the swamp in the final level hinders them from helping to take down Duma.

Are the Gold Knights exceptionally hindered, though? Swamps are a nuisance to everyone but the fliers. So I wouldn't hold this particularly against them.

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26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Are the Gold Knights exceptionally hindered, though? Swamps are a nuisance to everyone but the fliers. So I wouldn't hold this particularly against them.

I don't know if they're particualrly hindered, but I can't say I've ever sent them up to deal with Duma and the northern enemies. I mostly use Alm, Celica and mages for the extra range, with falcon knights helping where they can and bow knights providing support against Jedah from across the swamp. I suppose one could use warp to place Zeke and Mycen in the eastern area, though it'd still be pretty dangerous for them with the amount of magic enemies around, so if you're going to warp units up there anyway you might as well send OP Dread Fighters.

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Do any games in the series explicitly list critical avoid (also called, more concisely but less clearly, dodge)? It's one of the few relevant stats that 3H's display is missing. They ought to, of course, but this failing is hardly unique to Echoes.

Hence the "much less". Not showing dodge is a common problem, this one takes it to a new level by not displaying hit, avoid or crit either.

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The thing is, I don't believe the thought process was "this aspect of game design is bad, so we should ameliorate it with a rewind mechanic". It's more likely that the developers never recognized what you and others have cast as "bad game design" as such. That instead, they intended the turnwheel as a design-agnostic, quality-of-life feature. In which case, the fault would lay not with the feature itself, but with the failure to identify the perceived "bad game design". I could be wrong, since either way, this is speculative. 

Yeah but I brought that up because I have seen so many people defend the mechanic because it "lets them undo deaths they didn't deserve", which I liken to praising a restaurant to giving you a little fork to fish the inedible seeds and pits out of your fruit salad with, instead of properly preparing the damned fruits. If those deaths where genuine bullshit, then that would be praising the devs for making it your job to weed out the bullshit that shouldn't be there, when that job should be the developers'.

 

@Maof06 Dunno who said that, but I can't say I believe them. Clive's speed is absolutely atrocious, and he lacks the offensive power to do much of anything of value. Mathilda shows up with way better speed and way better stats in general for her level. If gold knight's such a game changer that technically being able to reach it sooner with a lot of babying makes him better than someone who shows up with way better stats and growths for free, well, I guess I'll find that out soon enough, huh?

Edited by Alastor15243
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17 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Dunno who said that, but I can't say I believe them. Clive's speed is absolutely atrocious, and he lacks the offensive power to do much of anything of value. Mathilda shows up with way better speed and way better stats in general for her level. If gold knight's such a game changer that technically being able to reach it sooner with a lot of babying makes him better than someone who shows up with way better stats and growths for free, well, I guess I'll find that out soon enough, huh?

Clive has better availability and is the best Ridersbane user. By grinding in the Thief's shrine (which you can complete in 1 turn btw) as Clive requires very little effort to promote before Zofia Castle, just needing to get 4 or 5 kills and giving him a speed well he can easily reach certain thresholds and be relevant for the rest of the game. He has a really good Act 3 and he can reach Gold Knight before Act 4 with 1 or 2 Sylvan Shrine experience wells. He is miles easier to get to this level benchmark than any other cavalier on the route. With this promotion, Gold knight clive is one of the few units who can take on the extremely strong Knights in 4-1 and 4-3 outside your Dread Fighter.

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9 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Which is actually what pisses me off so much about the argument that the turnwheel “lets me fix it when I didn't deserve to die”. Either a: that death was totally avoidable and you're just blaming the game for your own failings, or b: the thing that killed you was genuinely bullshit, and thus has no business being in the game. And in neither scenario is granting the player immunity to the fail state an appropriate way to address the issue.

The problem I have with this argument is that it assumes some sort of objective standard for what is and isn't a bullshit death, and I don't think that any such standard actually exists. One person's bullshit is another person's fair and fun. Take Fates, for instance, which you love but I found to have a lot of bullshit. And it's important to stress that we are both completely right in our opinions. You aren't lying (I assume) when you say that you love it; I'm not lying when I say that I found much of it to be frustrating and obnoxious. We're just different people who have different preferences in video games.

9 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Sorry, I also might just be on edge because I've been playing XCOM lately with some friends, and one of my biggest pet peeves about that game is how a perfectly healthy high-level soldier with solid terrain cover can be instantly one-hit killed by some random mook getting a lucky crit, which happened psychotically often during our most recent play session together. I was just telling my friend that the permadeath game I'm used to playing, Fire Emblem, generally has characters die less arbitrarily and with more dignity than that.

Or take XCOM as another example. I have no problem at all with arbitrarily losing units in XCOM because a. they don't have distinct personalities so I don't get attached to them the same way I do to Fire Emblem units, b. there is very little to differentiate units beyond their level meaning there's no chance of "I lost all my thieves" or "I lost my dancer" style scenarios, and c. having to hire and train more units to replace fallen soldiers is a part of the strategic layer of the game. That is, arbitrary deaths are mitigated not by avoiding them entirely but by planning ahead such that no unit is indispensible and any death is recoverable. I have personally had more fun ironmanning XCOM than I have ironmanning Fire Emblem.

I'm with you on the annoyance of not having derived stats on the characters screens in Shadows of Valentia, but if someone else came along and said that they find it completely fair because there are resurrection springs and that they enjoy having to balance when to use the springs versus when to write off a character? I wouldn't want to tell them that they're wrong.

The benefit of Turnwheel (or other rewind mechanics) is that it lets every individual player decide what counts as bullshit for them personally. It acknowledges that people are different and players are different and that there is no objective standard for good game design.

(I will add, though, that I agree with you that games (or chapters) shouldn't ever be designed around the assumption of the use of Turnwheel and that doing so can only lead to nonsense. I'm not convinced that they ever actually have done -- dubious design decisions have been a staple of the series for longer than Turnwheel has been -- but if they are doing so then they need to cut that out.)

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1 hour ago, Maof06 said:

Clive has better availability and is the best Ridersbane user. By grinding in the Thief's shrine (which you can complete in 1 turn btw) as Clive requires very little effort to promote before Zofia Castle, just needing to get 4 or 5 kills and giving him a speed well he can easily reach certain thresholds and be relevant for the rest of the game. He has a really good Act 3 and he can reach Gold Knight before Act 4 with 1 or 2 Sylvan Shrine experience wells. He is miles easier to get to this level benchmark than any other cavalier on the route. With this promotion, Gold knight clive is one of the few units who can take on the extremely strong Knights in 4-1 and 4-3 outside your Dread Fighter.

So for the record, this build not only requires holding off on giving a Speed well to one of your earlygame units so that Clive can get it instead (while also backtracking to grind), but also anticipates giving him at least one drink from the EXP well (possibly the best type of well)? This sounds like pretty high investment - you know, the kind that any unit can be made good with. I don't think anyone would contest that Clive should be made good, but to be a good unit in his own right, he shouldn't be relying on these resources.

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah but I brought that up because I have seen so many people defend the mechanic because it "lets them undo deaths they didn't deserve", which I liken to praising a restaurant to giving you a little fork to fish the inedible seeds and pits out of your fruit salad with, instead of properly preparing the damned fruits. If those deaths where genuine bullshit, then that would be praising the devs for making it your job to weed out the bullshit that shouldn't be there, when that job should be the developers'

I see what you're saying, but I have to agree with @lenticular; in that, there's no objective standard to what constitutes a "bullshit" death. When I sent my Kana in to attack an Archer, and she died to a Counter skill that wasn't reflected in the combat forecast, it felt like bullshit to me. To players who love checking enemy skills, though, this was a perfectly fair occurence. Do I feel like an idiot for it, yes. Would I have preferred to be able to Turnwheel it, also yes.

Instead of pits, let's say it was kiwi, which I hate (for the sake of argument - I actually like just about all fruit), in the fruit salad. If it's a choice between having a fork to pick out the kiwi, or having to fish it out with my hands, of course I'd rather have the fork. I don't blame the fork for the kiwi being there - some people like the kiwi, after all! Then again, maybe I should've just ordered a different menu item - maybe I don't like this one, and that's fine too.

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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So for the record, this build not only requires holding off on giving a Speed well to one of your earlygame units so that Clive can get it instead

It's not like the others need it. The villagers are fine and it's a waste to give it to Silque, since giving Silque speed ends up being a huge gamble that pays off roughly 50% of the time, and the other 50% of the time you wasted 2 wells. The best uses for the speed wells are Clive in act 1 and Leon in act 2.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

(while also backtracking to grind)

It's not like there's reinforcements coming in. Grinding just a lit bit is already a big help that will pay off. Just gain 1 level with Clive so he can promote, and then you can just throw him in the middle of the enemy cavalry (a good chunk of act 1 and 3 enemies) with the ridersbane and watch them suicide into him.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This sounds like pretty high investment - you know, the kind that any unit can be made good with.

Try doing this with Clair or Mage!Tobin and see if they can be as good.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't think anyone would contest that Clive should be made good, but to be a good unit in his own right, he shouldn't be relying on these resources.

This is SoV, the game is built on growth units and using these resources. This is not like, say, Amelia's case, where you have to waste a lot of your time in order to make her good. And you can't even be sure she'll end up good.

Edited by Maof06
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Shadows of Valentia Day 34: Nuibaba's Abode

I'm working my way over to Nuibaba, and Clive and Mathilda both aren't doing so hot, even as gold knights. But then, that's not exactly surprising. They're player-phase units in a game that really, really, really heavily punishes player-phasing. Even this game's omnipresent squishy mages can't be one-rounded by anyone but a crit machine, with the exception of Alm, who can take some of them out due to his impressive power.

Looks like I've unlocked Delthea and Luthier's C support. Let's see...

So, this is kinda just dumb. First off, in what I have to assume was a bad translation, Luthier scolds Delthea for her recklessness, and then when she complains, he says he's “not criticizing [her]”. Also, Delthea's response of “Wooould yooouuu pleeeeease SHUUUUUUUT UUUUUUP!?” was read more like “Would you PLEEEEEASE... SHUT! UP!”. Makes me wonder if the voice actors even got the same script that we got. I can't imagine deciding to read the former like the latter.

The witch skirmish reinforcements are pretty dang aggressive, so I'm gonna have to try and fight Nuibaba with them tagging along. Shouldn't be too hard, as I remember it Nuibaba's forces aren't that aggressive, they hunker down to fuck you over with their placement, like Conquest, except not even a quarter-way as intelligent or fun.

Also, isn't it weird that the narrator openly questions why Alm's even here, when we've already been given multiple reasons why he'd want to go here?

So apparently Nuibaba wasn't even specifically attempting to impersonate Celica in that vision. She simply conjured “a vision of whomever [Alm] held fast in [his] heart to draw [him] in” and apparently just let the spell do the rest, without any active involvement on her part. First off, the fact that she's admitting this outside of her manor, while they can still flee, is pretty piss-poor strategy. Second of all, how does that work? The illusion clearly made some effort to accurately impersonate Celica, even if it had some obvious clues to the observant that it wasn't her. Was it reading Alm's mental image of what Celica is like? So Nuibaba's magic can read minds?

But yeah, on to the actual fight. Indeed, only the reinforcement troops appear to be outside the manor. Nuibaba's holed up with her psychotic 7 range eclipse tome called Medusa (1-5 but bolstered by a mage ring). I have no memory of ever attempting to do this by actually sending my forces inside. That would be a death sentence. No, I've only ever cheesed it with my favorite standby of WDLR. I usually set up outside the mansion, warp Alm in, double lion her, rescue him out, and repeat it until I secure a kill on her. But his very first attack of his very first double lion was a critical, so that's most of the job done. Now to rescue him out and take out the rest of the enemies in there.

Luring in the bow knight was all it took to do a hunter's volley, but as for the rest... we may have a problem. Alm needs a crit to kill anyone in here, because there's a couple of fortify users in there who will heal anyone injured to full health. Meaning I'll have to take them out first.

...Thankfully, without the bow knight, we have much more room for WDLR shenanigans while keeping Silque safe, so I decide to take out the fortify mages first while periodically taking cover from the gargoyles.

In addition, I've been having Kliff make his way to the entrance in back so that he can take out some of these guys with hunter's volley.

Alright, the mages are finally all down, leaving nothing but the easily-disposed-of dread fighters. And with that... we're done.

...Damn, as simple and straightforward as that was to describe, it still took some time to do. I'll see if I can fit in another battle, but this looks like it'll be one of those days where the entry is pretty short despite the stuff I did taking a while.

Well, let's see how visiting the interior of Nuibaba's Abode pads it out.

So apparently Berkut is insanely popular with the ladies, according to this one random peasant girl. Kinda weird how she says nothing about the emotional conflict from owing her life to her idol's mortal enemies. That would've been amusing. Does she know? How could she not? Why would Alm ever bring up the subject of Berkut and say that he met him to prompt this conversation, without it becoming clear that he's the leader of the Deliverance?

It's crazy how they use this exact same bottom screen map layout for so many buildings. Main room, and then two dungeons forming a sort of misshapen backwards lowercase R. Given that the actual visuals of the interior are completely different each time, this seems like a pathetically trivial art asset to save money on.

So there are three imprisoned peddlers I can't think of any use for at the moment, there's an item called a “dubious mask” that I forget the use for, and...

...we rescue Tatiana.

...She apparently came to Nuibaba's abode... searching for Zeke? Did he go somewhere earlier that he wasn't on the path to Nuibaba's Abode from their home?

...Okay, if I understand this correctly, apparently Zeke, for unexplained reasons, wandered off somewhere, prompting Tatiana to go looking for him. Causing her to get kidnapped, causing her to be used as blackmail to keep Zeke in line. For a second I thought the game had written itself into a paradox where Tatiana got captured in the process of warning Zeke about the consequences of her own kidnapping... but no, that was me misremembering what she had said before about why she was looking for Zeke. It seems that, even if they're unexplained (at least for now, perhaps later), Tatiana's reasoning for looking for Zeke was some other thing.

Why the flaming fuck is recruiting Tatiana optional? Does the game honestly mean to suggest that we can tell her we don't plan to bring her with us, which would force us to fight Zeke, and she'd accept that?

...Fuck it, let's see what she says...

...She basically says “Fair enough, I'll just wait here so I don't get kidapped again”. How exactly does she expect the Zeke situation to end well without her presence?

...Does it end well? Do we actually need to bring her with us to avoid fighting him, or can we just tell him and he'll believe it?

...Anyway, unfortunately that's all the time I have. Sorry again for the short update. Summers are very busy for me.

Stay safe, everyone.

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14 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...She basically says “Fair enough, I'll just wait here so I don't get kidapped again”. How exactly does she expect the Zeke situation to end well without her presence?

...Does it end well? Do we actually need to bring her with us to avoid fighting him, or can we just tell him and he'll believe it?

I'm going to assume she needs to be recruited before that happens.

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17 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Does it end well? Do we actually need to bring her with us to avoid fighting him, or can we just tell him and he'll believe it?

Wait. No. I think he still joins even if you don't have her, so long you rescued her.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Shadows of Valentia Day 34: Nuibaba's Abode

I'm working my way over to Nuibaba, and Clive and Mathilda both aren't doing so hot, even as gold knights. But then, that's not exactly surprising. They're player-phase units in a game that really, really, really heavily punishes player-phasing. Even this game's omnipresent squishy mages can't be one-rounded by anyone but a crit machine, with the exception of Alm, who can take some of them out due to his impressive power.

I don't find the game that critical of player phase. Enemy quality is usually pretty high that you can't just tear through them on enemy phase and things like combat arts, or just hos archer units are designed in general, encourage pushing forward with player phase.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also, isn't it weird that the narrator openly questions why Alm's even here, when we've already been given multiple reasons why he'd want to go here?

 

Holdover from Gaiden. It's weird, silly and outright random considering how little the narrator shows up, yet I can't help but like it for the creep factor and  narmyness of it.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

So apparently Nuibaba wasn't even specifically attempting to impersonate Celica in that vision. She simply conjured “a vision of whomever [Alm] held fast in [his] heart to draw [him] in” and apparently just let the spell do the rest, without any active involvement on her part. First off, the fact that she's admitting this outside of her manor, while they can still flee, is pretty piss-poor strategy. Second of all, how does that work? The illusion clearly made some effort to accurately impersonate Celica, even if it had some obvious clues to the observant that it wasn't her. Was it reading Alm's mental image of what Celica is like? So Nuibaba's magic can read minds?

 

This sort of makes me question how Jedah knows that Celica knows Alm.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

But yeah, on to the actual fight. Indeed, only the reinforcement troops appear to be outside the manor. Nuibaba's holed up with her psychotic 7 range eclipse tome called Medusa (1-5 but bolstered by a mage ring). I have no memory of ever attempting to do this by actually sending my forces inside. That would be a death sentence. No, I've only ever cheesed it with my favorite standby of WDLR. I usually set up outside the mansion, warp Alm in, double lion her, rescue him out, and repeat it until I secure a kill on her. But his very first attack of his very first double lion was a critical, so that's most of the job done. Now to rescue him out and take out the rest of the enemies in there.

Luring in the bow knight was all it took to do a hunter's volley, but as for the rest... we may have a problem. Alm needs a crit to kill anyone in here, because there's a couple of fortify users in there who will heal anyone injured to full health. Meaning I'll have to take them out first.

...Thankfully, without the bow knight, we have much more room for WDLR shenanigans while keeping Silque safe, so I decide to take out the fortify mages first while periodically taking cover from the gargoyles.

In addition, I've been having Kliff make his way to the entrance in back so that he can take out some of these guys with hunter's volley.

Alright, the mages are finally all down, leaving nothing but the easily-disposed-of dread fighters. And with that... we're done.

...Damn, as simple and straightforward as that was to describe, it still took some time to do. I'll see if I can fit in another battle, but this looks like it'll be one of those days where the entry is pretty short despite the stuff I did taking a while.

Well, let's see how visiting the interior of Nuibaba's Abode pads it out.

So apparently Berkut is insanely popular with the ladies, according to this one random peasant girl. Kinda weird how she says nothing about the emotional conflict from owing her life to her idol's mortal enemies. That would've been amusing. Does she know? How could she not? Why would Alm ever bring up the subject of Berkut and say that he met him to prompt this conversation, without it becoming clear that he's the leader of the Deliverance?

It's crazy how they use this exact same bottom screen map layout for so many buildings. Main room, and then two dungeons forming a sort of misshapen backwards lowercase R. Given that the actual visuals of the interior are completely different each time, this seems like a pathetically trivial art asset to save money on.

So there are three imprisoned peddlers I can't think of any use for at the moment, there's an item called a “dubious mask” that I forget the use for, and...

...we rescue Tatiana.

...She apparently came to Nuibaba's abode... searching for Zeke? Did he go somewhere earlier that he wasn't on the path to Nuibaba's Abode from their home?

...Okay, if I understand this correctly, apparently Zeke, for unexplained reasons, wandered off somewhere, prompting Tatiana to go looking for him. Causing her to get kidnapped, causing her to be used as blackmail to keep Zeke in line. For a second I thought the game had written itself into a paradox where Tatiana got captured in the process of warning Zeke about the consequences of her own kidnapping... but no, that was me misremembering what she had said before about why she was looking for Zeke. It seems that, even if they're unexplained (at least for now, perhaps later), Tatiana's reasoning for looking for Zeke was some other thing.

 

Maybe Zeke didn't wander off and Tatiana just thought he did because Nibaba was using her "held fast in the heart" magic.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Why the flaming fuck is recruiting Tatiana optional? Does the game honestly mean to suggest that we can tell her we don't plan to bring her with us, which would force us to fight Zeke, and she'd accept that?

...Fuck it, let's see what she says...

...She basically says “Fair enough, I'll just wait here so I don't get kidapped again”. How exactly does she expect the Zeke situation to end well without her presence?

...Does it end well? Do we actually need to bring her with us to avoid fighting him, or can we just tell him and he'll believe it?

Better question, why does she just vanish completely if you do kill Zeke, actually not even Zeke, she vanishes if you kill Jerome. Does Nuibaba kill her in revenge even though Zeke is still fighting (and even though you can kill Nibaba, not rescue Tatiana and then go and kill Jerome but not Camus and go back to find her missing, I think).

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