Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Acacia Sgt]

56 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Okay so this is weird. I've just done a run where Alm ignores the thieves shrine entirely and Celica instead visits it, and sure enough Celica has her conversation with Silque, and now in Part 2 I've just gone back to recruit Silque with Alm and she's no where to be found. So she actually does move away from the shrine, and apparently just vanishes, because I can't find her anywhere in the part 1 areas, and I've checked all of them. So yeah, they didn't keep Silque in the shrine in case you wanted to recruit her with Alm, after part 1, it seems you can't recruit her with Alm at all. Unless talking to her with Celica set off some trigger that made the game think she was recruited. I talked to Python and Forsyth with Celica as well though and they're still just hanging about in their usual place. SO yeah, it's sort of weird. Maybe they did want to imply Silque was killed when you don't rescue her, but the people who decided to implant the easter egg conversation with Celica weren't notified of that.

Huh, interesting. Well, now would be a matter of checking if ignoring the shrine in Act 1 makes her gone in Act 3 if Celica also never went there.

[Alastor15243]

Shadows of Valentia Day 14: The Argument

Alright. I only have two hours today, but that should be more than enough to accomplish what I want to do today, which is finish Act 2 and give Alm and Celica's argument all the attention it needs. Now then... one last fight.

So they use a really lame excuse to separate Celica from Mae and Boey, though not nearly as dumb as the one in Conquest Chapter 8. They basically have Mae gush about the castle and what it must be like to live in one... and swiftly realize she's being insensitive to Celica. So she awkwardly walks away with Boey to give her some space.

Meanwhile Saber notices immediately how completely unphased Celica is by the sight of the castle in comparison. And then, clearly unconvinced when she said she was just “speechless”... he goes inside as well. Huh. I could've sworn Saber was here for this. Does he come back, or is it just Celica and Conrad?

Nope, Saber is indeed here. Alright, good to know.

Man, the cantor voice actor's performance is really lame. Similar to Desaix, it's just a really unconvincing and subdued hamminess that's neither cool nor entertaining.

Saber: Damn those two morons for running off and leaving us!

So it was canonically just those two morons? What about the other morons? What about Genny? And Valbar? And Leon? And Kamui!? Why did he explicitly have to say “those two”!?

And now Conrad shows up as the white-masked cavalier to save the day. So we fight alongside him, with him as an NPC.

Okay, so Conrad's a paladin with... nooooot so great stats. Most notably, six fucking defense? For when we get him!? In act four!?

That said, his resistance is really good, especially for now, so he's basically indestructible here.

Saber gets HP, attack, skill and speed. Alright, that's pretty good.

Facing a bunch of mages with only one ranged fighter is kinda frustrating, but it's not what I'd call hard. Especially not when Saber's promoted.

Celica got an awesome level up, HP, attack, speed, luck and defense. Fantastic. Hopefully nothing horrible happens to ruin it.

Nope! Celica wins with a thunder crit! Yeah, this was pretty mindless. It mostly involved finishing off everyone Conrad fought with Celica's seraphim.

When Celica wonders who could possibly want to take her captive, she doesn't sound like she's playing dumb, it sounds like she's genuinely asking herself. Which feels weird. “I'm sure it wasn't Desaix's men, but who else would want to take me captive?” would have made far more sense than just “I'm sure it wasn't Desaix's men, but who would want to take me captive?”.

…Ohhhhhhhhhh...

...I think Slayde just told the retreating cantor where to find Delthea! I never picked up on that before!

Alright, we're in the castle, talking to people...

Oooh, I got honey giving holey cheese to that cheese lover guy! Let's see if I have any other cheeses...

Nope, I don't have any others... yet.

Oh, so a woman's warning us that the area we're headed towards is prone to landslides due to the fact that “the very ground itself is rotten”. Cute foreshadowing, and I guess it serves as a warning to take care of business here before moving forward.

Alright, now then... it is time.

Let's do this.

So Celica confirms to Mycen that she's banking on divine intervention to solve the entire problem, including the war. Honestly, even without the benefit of hindsight, I'd still think this is a pretty big stretch. What exactly does she think has stopped Mila that she's so confident that she can stop it?

But yeah, she runs up the stairs in a huge dramatic cutscene, sees Alm, and gives him a huge tackle-hug that knocks him over and spills oranges everywhere. Pretty dang adorable. Pity it all goes to shit so amazingly quickly.

Ah, so apparently it's been seven years since they last met.

Alm: ...Wow. That's quite the story, I'm trying to picture you swashbuckling pirates, and... Yeah. Just... wow.

Celica: I didn't mean to swashbuckle anyone. It just sort of... happened.

Oh, so... it was an impulse, hm?

A... reckless decision, shall we say?

Celica: But forget all that for the moment.

Yes, because it completely undermines a lot of what you're about to bitch at Alm about.

Celica: Alm, you aren't really planning to fight the Rigelian Empire, are you?

Alm: Listen, it's not... it's not something I chose. They were the ones who attacked us.

Celica: But there must be ways to resolve things other than bloodshed, no?

I dunno, Celica, are there? You didn't seem all that eager to find them.

Alm: That's a pretty thought, Celica, but I'm not sure it's true. If it were, no one would be risking life and limb on the battlefield.

Agreed.

Celica: Is it really so naive?

YES.

Celica: Zofians and Rigelians are both people of Valentia, are we not? I know we can reach some kind of accord if we just try!

I said this at the start of my Sacred Stones playlog, and I'll say it again: If one country gets invaded by another without having any idea what they did wrong because no attempt at communication was made, it is psychotically rare for the invading country to be in the right. If Rigel were even remotely interested in talking things out, they would have done so by now. Besides, it's not like Alm's saying he'd refuse to negotiate if Rigel suddenly decided to. He's just saying that he's not going to refuse to use force on principle if pacifism would come at the cost of the lives and freedom of his countrymen. Meanwhile Celica's acting like she genuinely thinks this war could be solved satisfactorily without even one more drop of blood being shed.

Celica: Besides that, I... I just can't imagine Emperor Rudolf is the monster some people claim him to be.

Is that because of something about him that you're judging, Celica? Or do you just not think it's possible for anyone to be a monster? If it's the former, what exactly do you know about him that makes you think that, and if it's the latter, how the fuck can you be this naive, and where the fuck is your self-awareness given the number of people you've been perfectly willing to resort to lethal force to stop?

Alm: It doesn't matter what sort of man he is. The Rigelian Empire chose to cross Zofia's border – that's a fact. We aim to drive back the invaders. Nothing more.

Celica: But why do you have to lead this rebellion? Mycen's grandson or no, you're neither knight nor noble! So why make yourself a target like this!?

Oh. So she's just coddling him. She's getting mad at him putting himself in danger because that bad dream she had has her scared he'll get himself killed, so she's expecting him to let her be the one to do all the dangerous stuff. Sympathetic and human, to be sure, but also blatantly wrong and hypocritical of her. Not to mention she should be damned grateful this isn't an argument between Almia and Celico, or a lot of people would be calling it sexist too.

Alm: (Stunned silence) ...If I didn't know any better, I'd swear I was speaking to a blue blood. My station doesn't matter, Celica. I'm here because I was called. I have a duty to perform, and I'll perform it. No more, and no less.

Okay, I was a bit worried he was crossing a line with that first sentence, reading too harshly into Celica's motives given her tone, but yeah, I pretty much agree here.

Celica: Oh, Alm...

Alm: Do you think I wanted this fight? This all started because Lima IV went and angered the empire. If you wish to point fingers, point them at the ruler who failed his people. It's his fault we're in this mess.

Ah, my bad. Yeah, I remember now people were talking a week or two back about the reasoning behind the war. Was it said in-game before now what the grievances between Rigel and Zofia are? I didn't realize if so. But this is also weirdly-phrased, like he's victim-blaming his own country, as if merely pissing another country off lays the blame on you for the invasion.

Celica: That's not... Well, so what if it is? Maybe you should go become king if it's such a damnably easy job!

Woooooooooow, Celica. Seriously? The dude was notorious for doing absolutely nothing but fucking his harem and getting drunk off his ass. This was not a guy who's being judged overly harshly for cracking under the pressure of an incredibly difficult job. This was a guy who was such a corrupt, pampered and spoiled shithead that you yourself have fucking disowned him as your father!

Alm: What? Celica, that's not –

Celica: You're awfully free with accusations for a boy with no idea what royalty entails!

What the fuck more could you possibly know about it, Celica!? You were ten at the oldest the last time you spent any time at all around royalty, and you've spent the rest of your life since then either in a peasant village or in a convent! You can't have much of a better understanding of it than he does! What great ten-year-old's wisdom could you possibly possess here that invalidates what Alm is saying!?

Celica: And now that you're a “hero”, I imagine the throne is next on the list, is that it?

WHAT THE FUCK, CELICA. Way to go from calling accusations unfair to slinging out genuinely unfair ones.

Also, note: Celica is the only one to lose her temper in this conversation. The only one to lash out at the other, shout, and say knowingly cruel things. The worst Alm does is tell Celica something she said sounded classist, and talk shit about Lima IV, which you could charitably interpret (charitably in Celica's favor I mean) as “innocently insensitive”. Here, Celica's outright calling her friend an opportunistic, glory-drunk, power-hungry asshole.

Alm: No, it's not like that at all, Celica! I just want to keep Zofia safe! Besides, there's an heir. A princess of the royal family may have survived. If she turned up and fixed all this, I'd happily return to Ram. You could... come with me, you know? It'd be like old times.

And Alm... in response... shows reasonableness, patience and kindness, like he's completely unphased by the horrible stuff Celica just said to him.

Celica: Come on! There's no secret princess! The Zofian royal family is dead!

...I'm... honestly speechless. That was incredible. Absolutely no guilt or hesitation whatsoever before lying through her teeth to support her side of the argument while keeping her tone of righteous indignation. What the actual fuck.

Alm: But how can you be –

Celica: Enough! Just... enough. Go fight your war if it makes you happy. I'm going to the temple of Mila. ...Good-bye, Alm. You... you stubborn jerk!

Alm: Celica... You're one to talk about stubbornness, jeez...

Honestly, Celica's last sentence and Alm's reply are a really narmtastic way to end this scene, and I think it was a big mistake. It makes the argument seem a lot more childish and goofy given all the emotional weight they were clearly trying to give it.

But yeah. Um. I think I've made myself clear. Celica is blatantly in the wrong here. She does wind up right on a few things, mostly regarding Rudolf's motives, but only by sheer accident and absurdity, and not through wisdom. She's being overly-idealistic, childish, and incredibly unfair to Alm, and she's the one who blows up at him while he's being nothing but patient and reasonable. This is... a really bad argument. A really lame way to justify them getting separated for the rest of the game, and one in which one party is blatantly, ridiculously in the wrong, whether the writers intended it or not.. And frankly, why the fuck was it even necessary for them to get into a fight? They spend the rest of the game separated by geology but rapidly returning to being on good terms with each other! Why couldn't they just be separated by their different missions? Why'd they have to make Celica blow up on Alm like that?

...But what Celica suggested does actually make me weirdly intrigued by a rather amusing concept:

...What if Alm had taken Celica's advice and tried to talk it out with Rudolf immediately? Given the nature of Rudolf's plan, uh... all I can picture is him just staring like a deer in the headlights going “Shit... what the fuck am I supposed to do now!?”.

Alm: Ah, damn it all. I didn't even get the chance to ask her about the village... About why she had to leave. Oh, Celica... I had so much I wanted to say to you. How did it end up like this?

...Okay, that improves the ending a bit, but still... the “you stubborn jerk!” line feels really dumb, like, similar in tonal dissonance to the infamous “stupid Nohrian jerks!” line.

Alright. That's the end of Act 2. And thus the end of the week.

Tune in next time when I start taking on Act 3. Lemme know if you want me to do this differently, but I'm thinking on alternating between characters, starting with Alm, until the next visitable area like a village.

Stay safe, everyone!

[Acacia Sgt]

They did. Back at Ram Village:

Young Man: I heard what the knight said, but it sounds like a load of horse plop to me. Everyone knows it’s Zofia’s fault that Rigel invaded in the first place. King Lima refused to help the Rigelian Empire during their famine, remember? And we all know the emperor didn’t take too kindly to THAT little slight. Such a shame. The kingdom and the empire had been getting along so well. The king may be dead, but his choices live on. Ain’t that always the way of it?

So yeah.

Now, of course, Rudolf would've sought any excuse to fight anyway since he had promised Duma he would, and because his plans hinged on having said war. But it shows there was moment both countries did try to find an accord... and Lima IV screwed it up thanks to being his hedonist douche self. So chances Rigel could be talked to again... were gonna be slim anyway.

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

They did. Back at Ram Village:

Young Man: I heard what the knight said, but it sounds like a load of horse plop to me. Everyone knows it’s Zofia’s fault that Rigel invaded in the first place. King Lima refused to help the Rigelian Empire during their famine, remember? And we all know the emperor didn’t take too kindly to THAT little slight. Such a shame. The kingdom and the empire had been getting along so well. The king may be dead, but his choices live on. Ain’t that always the way of it?

So yeah.

Now, of course, Rudolf would've sought any excuse to fight anyway since he had promised Duma he would, and because his plans hinged on having said war. But it shows there was moment both countries did try to find an accord... and Lima IV screwed it up thanks to being his hedonist douche self. So chances Rigel could be talked to again... were gonna be slim anyway.

Shit, how did I miss/forget that? Thanks for pointing that out. Thankfully it doesn't really detract much from my points.

[Jotari]

 

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

And now Conrad shows up as the white-masked cavalier to save the day. So we fight alongside him, with him as an NPC.

Okay, so Conrad's a paladin with... nooooot so great stats. Most notably, six fucking defense? For when we get him!? In act four!?

He's not that weak in Act 4. They use different stats for him. I'm not exactly sure why given there's no seroius attempt at gameplay here (not that I consider that a bad thing mind you). They could have given him his default stats and little would really change. Eh, I guess he was fighting some Duma Faithful off screen.

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

…Ohhhhhhhhhh...

...I think Slayde just told the retreating cantor where to find Delthea! I never picked up on that before!

Yep, and he proceeds to do zero else for the entire remainder of the story. And it's not like finding Delthea was ever something that actually required an explanation. Making Slayde survive was a pretty pointless decision imo. If you're going to use a character, actually use them.

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I said this at the start of my Sacred Stones playlog, and I'll say it again: If one country gets invaded by another without having any idea what they did wrong because no attempt at communication was made, it is psychotically rare for the invading country to be in the right. If Rigel were even remotely interested in talking things out, they would have done so by now. Besides, it's not like Alm's saying he'd refuse to negotiate if Rigel suddenly decided to. He's just saying that he's not going to refuse to use force on principle if pacifism would come at the cost of the lives and freedom of his countrymen. Meanwhile Celica's acting like she genuinely thinks this war could be solved satisfactorily without even one more drop of blood being shed.

I'm struggling to think of any good example, in either the real world or fiction. I guess you could say Chrom's father's decision to invade Plegia without explanation was kind of the right thing to do, but even then the game condemns him for it.

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Alm: (Stunned silence) ...If I didn't know any better, I'd swear I was speaking to a blue blood. My station doesn't matter, Celica. I'm here because I was called. I have a duty to perform, and I'll perform it. No more, and no less.

Okay, I was a bit worried he was crossing a line with that first sentence, reading too harshly into Celica's motives given her tone, but yeah, I pretty much agree here.

I wish he did cross the line a bit more (like he does in Gaiden where he outright calls her horrible), that's the harshest thing he says to her and it's pretty mild.

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

What the fuck more could you possibly know about it, Celica!? You were ten at the oldest the last time you spent any time at all around royalty, and you've spent the rest of your life since then either in a peasant village or in a convent! You can't have much of a better understanding of it than he does! What great ten-year-old's wisdom could you possibly possess here that invalidates what Alm is saying!?

 

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Royalty isn't seen as a job, it's like an innate trait. Celica might not have sat on the throne, but the expectations of royalty (and for her specifcially the consequences of failing to meet those expectations) is something she's been fully aware of her entire life.

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Why'd they have to make Celica blow up on Alm like that?

Well you'd have to ask Gaiden that where the argument still exists, and it's one of the only a handful of actual plot driving parts of the story.

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I wish he did cross the line a bit more (like he does in Gaiden where he outright calls her horrible), that's the harshest thing he says to her and it's pretty mild.

I mean yeah. If they're gonna have them argue, either both should have crossed a line or neither. Personally though, while I'll have to see the rest of the game to be sure, my memory of it makes it seem like this argument didn't really accomplish anything for their character arcs.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I mean yeah. If they're gonna have them argue, either both should have crossed a line or neither. Personally though, while I'll have to see the rest of the game to be sure, my memory of it makes it seem like this argument didn't really accomplish anything for their character arcs.

Well at least coming from the direction of Gaiden, it did the job of actually introducing both of them as characters and showing what their stances are on things. So less development and more establishment, A bit late in the story to be doing that with the main characters albeit, but I guess they wanted their dualism. Less necessary overall in a remake that adds more to the story to show off the characters and establish them earlier. Still, it definitely could work if Alm was more Duma inclined, as you draw foils to Mila and Duma then and their inability to come to an agreement, which can then be mirrored later when they actually fight near the end of the game (though Alm outright stabbing Celica to save her I can't find any thematic justification for,  if it were up to me I would have made it a gameplay fight where you're goal is to endure Celica's attacks without fighting back).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Saber: Damn those two morons for running off and leaving us!

So it was canonically just those two morons? What about the other morons? What about Genny? And Valbar? And Leon? And Kamui!? Why did he explicitly have to say “those two”!?

Curiously, this line came out completely naturally on my "minimum recruitment" playthrough. Still, this scenario paints Mae and Boey in a somewhat poor light.

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

So Celica confirms to Mycen that she's banking on divine intervention to solve the entire problem, including the war. Honestly, even without the benefit of hindsight, I'd still think this is a pretty big stretch. What exactly does she think has stopped Mila that she's so confident that she can stop it?

Clearly, it has to do with opening the sluice gate. The gate-keeper only opens it for Zofian royalty, regardless of impending peril, so Mila needs Celica to come and help.

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Celica: Besides that, I... I just can't imagine Emperor Rudolf is the monster some people claim him to be.

This line is REALLY weird, in light of Celica's dream. If she imagines Rudolf will be responsible for the death of Alm, how can she not think him a villain? I wonder if she's being honest here, or simply grasping at whatever might dissuade Alm from pressing on.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm struggling to think of any good example, in either the real world or fiction. I guess you could say Chrom's father's decision to invade Plegia without explanation was kind of the right thing to do, but even then the game condemns him for it.

Hm... do the Lycian Lords' trip into Bern in FE7 count as an "invasion"? If so, that might qualify.

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hm... do the Lycian Lords' trip into Bern in FE7 count as an "invasion"? If so, that might qualify.

Only in the sense they invaded the Black Fang, not Bern. Since no actual war between countries happens in Blazing Sword. Lycia's close calls with open civil war is the closest we get to that.

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

I dunno, Celica, are there? You didn't seem all that eager to find them.

She did try negotiating Barth's surrender before their battle...

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Celica: Zofians and Rigelians are both people of Valentia, are we not? I know we can reach some kind of accord if we just try!

I said this at the start of my Sacred Stones playlog, and I'll say it again: If one country gets invaded by another without having any idea what they did wrong because no attempt at communication was made, it is psychotically rare for the invading country to be in the right. If Rigel were even remotely interested in talking things out, they would have done so by now. Besides, it's not like Alm's saying he'd refuse to negotiate if Rigel suddenly decided to. He's just saying that he's not going to refuse to use force on principle if pacifism would come at the cost of the lives and freedom of his countrymen. Meanwhile Celica's acting like she genuinely thinks this war could be solved satisfactorily without even one more drop of blood being shed.

He hasn't tried to negotiate either, just used force with them. As was pointed out latter there was a Rigelian justification for the invasion, and the primary result has been that a different Zofian noble has been given the throne (Desaix) with Rigelian assistance to prop him up.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Celica: But why do you have to lead this rebellion? Mycen's grandson or no, you're neither knight nor noble! So why make yourself a target like this!?

Oh. So she's just coddling him. She's getting mad at him putting himself in danger because that bad dream she had has her scared he'll get himself killed, so she's expecting him to let her be the one to do all the dangerous stuff. Sympathetic and human, to be sure, but also blatantly wrong and hypocritical of her. Not to mention she should be damned grateful this isn't an argument between Almia and Celico, or a lot of people would be calling it sexist too.

Which brings me to why I don't think she is necessarily coddling him. Barring the famine Celica is trying to fix, how has the life in Ram village really changed? A different terrible Zophian has taken the throne, and there are a lot of questions about his legitimacy, but even the legitimate ruler was terrible. There is a bit of a bandit problem, but is that because of the civil war, the famine, or Desaix' management, and how would Celica know about it? Why is this war over which Zophian noble rules Zophia is Alm's problem? There are reasons for him joining, but they are not so obvious or sacrosanct that they shouldn't be questioned.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Celica: That's not... Well, so what if it is? Maybe you should go become king if it's such a damnably easy job!

Woooooooooow, Celica. Seriously? The dude was notorious for doing absolutely nothing but fucking his harem and getting drunk off his ass. This was not a guy who's being judged overly harshly for cracking under the pressure of an incredibly difficult job. This was a guy who was such a corrupt, pampered and spoiled shithead that you yourself have fucking disowned him as your father!

Even disowning him, she has some complicated feeling about her father, and her cutting off there is a clear admission to him being a terrible king. Familial relationships are complicated, and blaming everything wrong on her dad is going to hurt.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Celica: You're awfully free with accusations for a boy with no idea what royalty entails!

What the fuck more could you possibly know about it, Celica!? You were ten at the oldest the last time you spent any time at all around royalty, and you've spent the rest of your life since then either in a peasant village or in a convent! You can't have much of a better understanding of it than he does! What great ten-year-old's wisdom could you possibly possess here that invalidates what Alm is saying!?

Both Mycen and Nomah knew Celica's future as the Zophian heir, and if they weren't training her for the responsibilities of royalty, than they have been derelict in their duty. She should have more knowledge of what Royalty entails than the wisdom of a 10 year old.

 

[Etrurian emperor]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Man, the cantor voice actor's performance is really lame. Similar to Desaix, it's just a really unconvincing and subdued hamminess that's neither cool nor entertaining.

I believe that's professor Hanneman's voice actor, actually. For both Desaix and generic Cantor enemies. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Alastor15243]

57 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I believe that's professor Hanneman's voice actor, actually. For both Desaix and generic Cantor enemies. 

Makes sense, he was one of my bigger complaints performancewise among the 3H cast as well.

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Barring the famine Celica is trying to fix, how has the life in Ram village really changed? A different terrible Zophian has taken the throne, and there are a lot of questions about his legitimacy, but even the legitimate ruler was terrible. There is a bit of a bandit problem, but is that because of the civil war, the famine, or Desaix' management, and how would Celica know about it?

Well, she didn't even bother to ask. She came into this with an attitude of trying to talk him down from his course of action without knowing why he was doing it.

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Well, she didn't even bother to ask. She came into this with an attitude of trying to talk him down from his course of action without knowing why he was doing it.

But she did ask...I quoted what you quoted from that conversation

8 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Celica: But why do you have to lead this rebellion? Mycen's grandson or no, you're neither knight nor noble! So why make yourself a target like this!?

Why does Alm lead this war, when she sees no reason for the peasantry to be invested in the outcome? His response...

9 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Alm: (Stunned silence) ...If I didn't know any better, I'd swear I was speaking to a blue blood. My station doesn't matter, Celica. I'm here because I was called. I have a duty to perform, and I'll perform it. No more, and no less.

To basically call her a classist, and give this vague non-answer. Sure she didn't phrase things as clearly as I did, and he could have explained why people beyond the nobility would be invested in the outcome of this war, or at the very least try to answer her question...

 

[Alastor15243]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

But she did ask...I quoted what you quoted from that conversation

Why does Alm lead this war, when she sees no reason for the peasantry to be invested in the outcome? His response...

To basically call her a classist, and give this vague non-answer. Sure she didn't phrase things as clearly as I did, and he could have explained why people beyond the nobility would be invested in the outcome of this war, or at the very least try to answer her question...

 

I don't think it's very charitable to Celica to interpret her question that way. If she's really asking Alm why he would risk his life in a war that, since he's "neither knight nor noble", doesn't directly affect him, isn't she insinuating she can't understand why Alm would help anyone but himself? Imagine if the famine didn't directly affect her or Alm somehow, just like the war doesn't directly affect her or Alm in canon as you say, and Alm got worked up about her going on this crazy dangerous adventure to reach the Temple of Mila, asking why the hell she's risking her life when she isn't among the starving. I think she'd be disgusted at Alm for even asking the question, which means if that is what she means, she's being a massive hypocrite.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I don't think it's very charitable to Celica to interpret her question that way. If she's really asking Alm why he would risk his life in a war that, since he's "neither knight nor noble", doesn't directly affect him, isn't she insinuating she can't understand why Alm would help anyone but himself?

I think she is insinuating that this war isn't helping anyone. Knights and Nobles care because it change the nebulous relative position of their power, but helping people isn't really what this war is about.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I think she is insinuating that this war isn't helping anyone. Knights and Nobles care because it change the nebulous relative position of their power, but helping people isn't really what this war is about.

I don't think that's true in canon, but in fairness it doesn't need to be for her to have that opinion. But more importantly, wouldn't that mean she takes an even dimmer view of nobility than Alm does, when she's the one giving the biggest defense of it later in the argument?

[Eltosian Kadath]

4 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I don't think that's true in canon, but in fairness it doesn't need to be for her to have that opinion. But more importantly, wouldn't that mean she takes an even dimmer view of nobility than Alm does, when she's the one giving the biggest defense of it later in the argument?

I don't see it as a strong defense. She says its a hard job, that even Alm couldn't do well at, but her "the princess is dead" talk makes it clear that she doesn't really want to be a noble. It seems like she thinks she can do more good as a wander than she could as a Queen...

 

[Alastor15243]

7 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I don't see it as a strong defense. She says its a hard job, that even Alm couldn't do well at, but her "the princess is dead" talk makes it clear that she doesn't really want to be a noble. It seems like she thinks she can do more good as a wander than she could as a Queen...

 

Still, "we're in this mess because Lima fucked up" is a far less unfair accusation to make of the nobility than "the knights and nobility are lying to the peasantry and manipulating them to die for a cause that doesn't remotely affect them", especially given Alm was 100% correct while Clive and Lukas not being total sacks of shit pretty heavily indicates Celica is wrong if she does indeed think that way.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Acacia Sgt]

25 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I don't see it as a strong defense. She says its a hard job, that even Alm couldn't do well at, but her "the princess is dead" talk makes it clear that she doesn't really want to be a noble. It seems like she thinks she can do more good as a wander than she could as a Queen...

 

I wouldn't say that she doesn't want to. Rather, she has to keep the fact hidden. Not to mention, she was lashing out due to Alm badmouthing her father so perhaps going for the dead comment wouldn't have been her first answer otherwise.

But yes, right now she has more freedom if the world assumes she's just a wandering sellsword. Right as Act 3 begins it will be reasoned as to why it's better it remains that way.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Eltosian Kadath]

18 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Still, "we're in this mess because Lima fucked up" is a far less unfair accusation to make of the nobility than "the knights and nobility are lying to the peasantry and manipulating them to die for a cause that doesn't remotely affect them", and Alm's accusation also at least had the benefit of being true.

I do see her "oh Alm..." line as a bit of pity that he is falling for some noble's ruse. Plus there is some truth to Celica's accusation as well, or at least was. Fernand certainly felt that was the case with the Deliverance, and Clive making Alm their figure head leader as a PR move to motivate the peasantry isn't the best of looks either. I think Clive is trying to find ways to make things less one sided, but this is a recent development, with chances for advancement, and having the Alm as their leader is all we really see of that effort.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

 Not to mention, she was lashing out due to Alm badmouthing her father.

I admit, that last sentence had a lot of soft language due to her emotional state being a viable explanation for her "the princess is dead" talk.

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

 

Right as Act 3 begins it will be reasoned as to why it's better it remains that way.

If you are thinking of how Grieth acts with Celica, I have always seen that as more the game showing her that she can't hide her nobility forever, with the end of Act 3 at the temple sluice gate showing her that trying to hide it is a selfishness she can no longer afford.

22 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I wouldn't say that she doesn't want to. Rather, she has to keep the fact hidden.

22 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

But yes, right now she has more freedom if the world assumes she's just a wandering sellsword.

I think that is a part of her reasoning, but it is not as obviously clear cut as that. If she revealed herself now, she would have options to use that new found authority to help get her safely to the Mila Temple. That would come with its own set of problems and complications, but I don't think she really comes to grips with the ways the power of Nobility can help people until the end of Act 3.

 

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I do see her "oh Alm..." line as a bit of pity that he is falling for some noble's ruse.

She's kinda right considering Clive is scheming to get rid of Alm the exact moment he's served his purpose. 

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I don't think it's very charitable to Celica to interpret her question that way. If she's really asking Alm why he would risk his life in a war that, since he's "neither knight nor noble", doesn't directly affect him, isn't she insinuating she can't understand why Alm would help anyone but himself? Imagine if the famine didn't directly affect her or Alm somehow, just like the war doesn't directly affect her or Alm in canon as you say, and Alm got worked up about her going on this crazy dangerous adventure to reach the Temple of Mila, asking why the hell she's risking her life when she isn't among the starving. I think she'd be disgusted at Alm for even asking the question, which means if that is what she means, she's being a massive hypocrite.

Funny you should suggest that exact point, as that's one of the things Alm does indeed take umbrage with in the manga.

[Alastor15243]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Funny you should suggest that exact point, as that's one of the things Alm does indeed take umbrage with in the manga.

The manga? There's a manga?

[Jotari]

37 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

The manga? There's a manga?

A Gaiden manga, yes. Guess you missed when I linked an image before. Behold them actually trying to use Celica's original design in a serious manner. They weren't brave enough to give Alm the dong guard, sadly.

 

You might be wondering is the manga actually good? And the answer is, well no not really. It's a one shot so it tries to cram the entire story into a pretty small page count and the action doesn't really flow all that well, still it isn't completely without merit and it's pretty interesting to take as an example of how people viewed the Gaiden story back in the 90s.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Jotari

[Alastor15243]

48 minutes ago, Jotari said:

A Gaiden manga, yes. Guess you missed when I linked an image before. Behold them actually trying to use Celica's original design in a serious manner. They weren't brave enough to give Alm the dong guard, sadly.

 

You might be wondering is the manga actually good? And the answer is, well no not really. It's a one shot so it tries to cram the entire story into a pretty small page count and the action doesn't really flow all that well, still it isn't completely without merit and it's pretty interesting to take as an example of how people viewed the Gaiden story back in the 90s.

That... is a waaaaaay more interesting and nuanced argument they could have had. I actually like it, at least the pages you showed.