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3 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

That... is a waaaaaay more interesting and nuanced argument they could have had. I actually like it, at least the pages you showed.

Alm being critical of Mila isn't something that 's really seen in any version of the story outside of here (and by here I mean just this scene as I don't think he talks about it anywhere else in the manga either), but I think it adds a nice dimension to his character and makes him more of a foil to both Celica and Duma. I can imagine a more Mila critical Alm in the ending of the story when he does actually meet her and trusts in her wisdom to save Celica during their fight. There'd still be some enmity there but like a grudging acceptance when he actually meets her face to face.

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On 6/10/2021 at 8:00 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wasn't Silque's mission "get the Turnwheel to Alm"? What else could there be? If "joining Alm on his quest" were part of her mission, then she should have joined him automatically, like Clair does later on. Or at least followed him out, to try providing help from afar. Right now, she's doing little more than trusting a magic conch shell that tells her to do "nothing".

She had a goal to help heal the war torn people. She doesn't join automatically because she's not one of the chosen characters to contribute in the plot. You have characters who have every reason to be apart of the army yet can be left behind, it's purely for gameplay reasons. Gameplay story segregation and all. None of the other characters you can reject follow from afar or do their own thing, just stand there. Your point makes no sense, it's purely a gameplay thing.

On 6/10/2021 at 11:43 AM, Jotari said:

 

 

 

Okay so this is weird. I've just done a run where Alm ignores the thieves shrine entirely and Celica instead visits it, and sure enough Celica has her conversation with Silque, and now in Part 2 I've just gone back to recruit Silque with Alm and she's no where to be found. So she actually does move away from the shrine, and apparently just vanishes, because I can't find her anywhere in the part 1 areas, and I've checked all of them. So yeah, they didn't keep Silque in the shrine in case you wanted to recruit her with Alm, after part 1, it seems you can't recruit her with Alm at all. Unless talking to her with Celica set off some trigger that made the game think she was recruited. I talked to Python and Forsyth with Celica as well though and they're still just hanging about in their usual place. SO yeah, it's sort of weird. Maybe they did want to imply Silque was killed when you don't rescue her, but the people who decided to implant the easter egg conversation with Celica weren't notified of that.

Maybe she fully went off on her own after all? Similar to what Atlas does? Her still remaining there is definitely still a "gameplay convenience easter egg" thing to me, imo.

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2 hours ago, Seazas said:

She had a goal to help heal the war torn people. She doesn't join automatically because she's not one of the chosen characters to contribute in the plot. You have characters who have every reason to be apart of the army yet can be left behind, it's purely for gameplay reasons. Gameplay story segregation and all. None of the other characters you can reject follow from afar or do their own thing, just stand there. Your point makes no sense, it's purely a gameplay thing.

So, I agree that Silque joining Alm's party is what the game intends to happen, even as it gives you the chance to turn her down. What bugs me is Silque's reason for turning down Celica - that "she still has her part to play in all of this". Which is... what, exactly? Waiting to die in a cave? Going off to an unseen village? If she's been waiting for Mila to "show her the way", after a surprise rejection from Alm, maybe Celica's visit is a sign of what to do. Maybe it was even Mila's plan that Alm turned her down, so that she could have the chance to aid Celica.

Now, it could be that Silque has her own plans, that she just doesn't reveal. But the way they explain her not joining Celica comes across an excuse, intended to fit the game design that says "we don't want Silque playable on Celica's route". Compare to Forsyth and Python - their loyalty is to the Deliverance, so if it's a choice between continuing to defend their hideout, and joining a total stranger on some ill-thought-out pilgrimage, of course they would choose the former.

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

A Gaiden manga, yes. Guess you missed when I linked an image before. Behold them actually trying to use Celica's original design in a serious manner. They weren't brave enough to give Alm the dong guard, sadly.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/D2N5yCbDBbWVthyhFaD8fjkPveqtH5wsCvVhg4-5SkbxnHwEVpiMUQoMtyAzRyK4x24gWwAAfzNo2xM=w700

LBP2OvlDwNICp8ow6bKa68Ea2kKW5MN8oa3UAZr3bruipR0_sQnyAZhb_CDXgSVbKDB6Sn3WqGwcGKE=w700

bqZ8wN_S84GYhL-l9LeKEsL19n6vkJ1DVmC9sNSF8k8GdawkYEywsCVD4pVcXVPNVj6k5vC1cjuYO0Q=w700

 

You might be wondering is the manga actually good? And the answer is, well no not really. It's a one shot so it tries to cram the entire story into a pretty small page count and the action doesn't really flow all that well, still it isn't completely without merit and it's pretty interesting to take as an example of how people viewed the Gaiden story back in the 90s.

The links don't work.

Anyway, you know what's one thing I like? I don't know if it was in the manga, or in the novelization (yes, Gaiden and pretty much every game before PoR also got a novel adaptation), but one change/addition they made was Silque's mother being Alm's wetnurse. Thus actually giving the cleric some importance to the plot long before SoV did, and actual reason to interact with Alm.

8 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I do see her "oh Alm..." line as a bit of pity that he is falling for some noble's ruse. Plus there is some truth to Celica's accusation as well, or at least was. Fernand certainly felt that was the case with the Deliverance, and Clive making Alm their figure head leader as a PR move to motivate the peasantry isn't the best of looks either. I think Clive is trying to find ways to make things less one sided, but this is a recent development, with chances for advancement, and having the Alm as their leader is all we really see of that effort.

 

 

I admit, that last sentence had a lot of soft language due to her emotional state being a viable explanation for her "the princess is dead" talk.

If you are thinking of how Grieth acts with Celica, I have always seen that as more the game showing her that she can't hide her nobility forever, with the end of Act 3 at the temple sluice gate showing her that trying to hide it is a selfishness she can no longer afford.

I think that is a part of her reasoning, but it is not as obviously clear cut as that. If she revealed herself now, she would have options to use that new found authority to help get her safely to the Mila Temple. That would come with its own set of problems and complications, but I don't think she really comes to grips with the ways the power of Nobility can help people until the end of Act 3.

 

I meant when Boey and Mae bring up that if Celica were to reveal herself, the Deliverance would force her to lead them, thus she'd be roped further into the war and couldn't personally go the Temple.

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Weird, they did this morning.

 

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I get a 403 Error and Forbidden, so it may not be the links per se.

The pics I posted earlier in the thread vanished into garbled links, so it is temporary with how the manga reading website is set up, but the images are at least still displaying for me, though trying to follow them does indeed lead to an error. I wasn't really intending to link to the manga and was just interested in displaying the pictures. If anyone does want to read the manga then the  info is out there.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The links don't work.

Anyway, you know what's one thing I like? I don't know if it was in the manga, or in the novelization (yes, Gaiden and pretty much every game before PoR also got a novel adaptation), but one change/addition they made was Silque's mother being Alm's wetnurse. Thus actually giving the cleric some importance to the plot long before SoV did, and actual reason to interact with Alm.

I meant when Boey and Mae bring up that if Celica were to reveal herself, the Deliverance would force her to lead them, thus she'd be roped further into the war and couldn't personally go the Temple.

I'd be interested in checking out a translation of that novel (or even the raw Japanese text if it's online) if you have more info. T'would be interesting to see how the argument differs there from the manga, original game and remake.

EDIT: I've found some info on the book, though no scans unfortunately. You're right, Silque being Alm's milk sister seems to come from the novelisation, or at least she has a much bigger role in it. It possibly also has more evidence to suggest Duma and Mila were always meant to be dragons, or at least that this writer intended to link them to the dragons of Archanea.

9kTZjlP.png

Then again maybe not, because this is what Duma looks like in the inside cover art, which is much more in line with his game appearance.

NkXsApO.jpeg

So while the accompanying text says this is Alm sealing Duma, it could be him just getting oddly friendly with one of the white dragons, strange as that might be. On the other other hand, Duma has that little dragon beard which Shadows of Valentia gave him too. Inspiration, or coincidence? Probably  just coincidence, but interesting nonetheless.

 

I do find it a lot of fun to compare these old obscure interpretations of a story with ten lines of dialogue and seeing how it compares to a more modern retelling. It's like studying the origins of a Greek play or something XD Here are the links to the images for anyone else interested.

https://imgur.com/a/fyKPs

 

https://imgur.com/a/UPA7c

 

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Interesting.

Haha, the author just outright saying Silque became his favorite after playing (and apparently an MPV too in his playthroughts), and thus gave her an expanded backstory in his novel. And also Kliff, which is why he apparently choose to kill him off for dramatics. *insert A Bug Life's meme about the kids making one of the heroes die in their mural here* And turn him and Silque into half-siblings, apparently.

Although, hmm, I wonder now. Making Silque's mother a Rigelian in the remake and that she left her at a priory, like in the novel, is either a coincidence or someone had read the novel and got inspired. Since it's too specific. But then, it's only those two details that match, since anything else (she and Alm being milk-siblings, Silque's mother apparently having helped Mycen move Alm to Ram, and also being Kliff's mother), is absent. So it could still go either way.

That said, I'm very intrigued with this whole set-up. A shame the remake didn't came close on that, haha. Except making the priory be Novis, so Silque is acquaintance with Celica and company. Novel!Silque is basically Faye, but done much better.

A shame it's not translated. Although...

https://four-loose-screws.tumblr.com/post/158382266965/fire-emblem-novel-translations

This person here seems to be translating the novels. At least, done Genealogy's, Thracia's, and half of Sacred Stone's so far. They seem to accept requests, so perhaps it might be worth the try...

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It possibly also has more evidence to suggest Duma and Mila were always meant to be dragons, or at least that this writer intended to link them to the dragons of Archanea.

Then again maybe not, because this is what Duma looks like in the inside cover art, which is much more in line with his game appearance.

So while the accompanying text says this is Alm sealing Duma, it could be him just getting oddly friendly with one of the white dragons, strange as that might be. On the other other hand, Duma has that little dragon beard which Shadows of Valentia gave him too. Inspiration, or coincidence? Probably  just coincidence, but interesting nonetheless.

Yeah, it's hard to tell without actually reading the novel, but my guess would be, in case the dragon is Duma, that it is a "he got purified back from his corrupted form" sort of situation.

At the very least, his corrupted form there clearly has the reptile-like wings often seen in dragons/wyverns.

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19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Interesting.

Haha, the author just outright saying Silque became his favorite after playing (and apparently an MPV too in his playthroughts), and thus gave her an expanded backstory in his novel. And also Kliff, which is why he apparently choose to kill him off for dramatics. *insert A Bug Life's meme about the kids making one of the heroes die in their mural here* And turn him and Silque into half-siblings, apparently.

Although, hmm, I wonder now. Making Silque's mother a Rigelian in the remake and that she left her at a priory, like in the novel, is either a coincidence or someone had read the novel and got inspired. Since it's too specific. But then, it's only those two details that match, since anything else (she and Alm being milk-siblings, Silque's mother apparently having helped Mycen move Alm to Ram, and also being Kliff's mother), is absent. So it could still go either way.

That's right, Silque says in her final base conversation that her mother is Rigelian. That is super specific a detail to be consistent with, even more so than Duma's little beard. But both of them combined with some other dragon pics and maybe some text directly identifying the gods as dragons makes me think it is possibly they did look at some of this old stuff when deciding which direction to go in with the remake (but decided all that extra stuff for Silque was giving her too much prominence in the plot). Alternatively it is mentioned that Nintendo gave him advice, so it's possible they had more basic info for these characters that didn't make into the game that they shared with the writer, similar to the backstory stuff in the Valentian Accordion that didn't make it into the remake. Silque's parents being Rigelian could be something that was always canon just not mentioned in Gaiden. I wouldn't be surprised to hear if there were details like that which just plain weren't put into the game. It's not like we'd ever know Sonya was related to Jeddah if it didn't just decide to randomly mention it in her ending.

Some other interesting things to note, Sabre appears is a badass in all adaptations including Shadows of Valentia while in the original Gaiden he's a drunkard with only a single line of dialogue. Kliff dies in both the manga and the novel, at it seems like Jedah has the same design in both the novel and the manga which is also different looking from his Gaiden design (and his Shadows of Valentia design). He looks more normal human like in both of the early adaptations.

Quote

That said, I'm very intrigued with this whole set-up. A shame the remake didn't came close on that, haha. Except making the priory be Novis, so Silque is acquaintance with Celica and company. Novel!Silque is basically Faye, but done much better.

A shame it's not translated. Although...

https://four-loose-screws.tumblr.com/post/158382266965/fire-emblem-novel-translations

This person here seems to be translating the novels. At least, done Genealogy's, Thracia's, and half of Sacred Stone's so far. They seem to accept requests, so perhaps it might be worth the try...

We'll probably get it some day, but I wouldn't expect it soon. Gaiden isn't at the top of their list. I voted it in their next game to translate poll though.

18 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, it's hard to tell without actually reading the novel, but my guess would be, in case the dragon is Duma, that it is a "he got purified back from his corrupted form" sort of situation.

At the very least, his corrupted form there clearly has the reptile-like wings often seen in dragons/wyverns.

Gaiden Duma actually had wings too, though it's not immediately obvious just looking at still images of his sprites.

Doma.png.0fcdc53c3baa532f8a2a459bb4cda6be.png

It's even more obvious in his map sprite where he flaps them. But I can't even find a still image of that.

 

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I like Celica deliberately seeking out bandits, pirates and other scum to fight. Its kind of her duty. Her scumbag father is the primary reason eastern Zofia has completely collapsed so its nice to see Celica try and fix it.

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37 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's right, Silque says in her final base conversation that her mother is Rigelian. That is super specific a detail to be consistent with, even more so than Duma's little beard. But both of them combined with some other dragon pics and maybe some text directly identifying the gods as dragons makes me think it is possibly they did look at some of this old stuff when deciding which direction to go in with the remake (but decided all that extra stuff for Silque was giving her too much prominence in the plot). Alternatively it is mentioned that Nintendo gave him advice, so it's possible they had more basic info for these characters that didn't make into the game that they shared with the writer, similar to the backstory stuff in the Valentian Accordion that didn't make it into the remake. Silque's parents being Rigelian could be something that was always canon just not mentioned in Gaiden. I wouldn't be surprised to hear if there were details like that which just plain weren't put into the game. It's not like we'd ever know Sonya was related to Jeddah if it didn't just decide to randomly mention it in her ending.

 

Yeah, that's true. Specially back then when there was only so much they could put in the game itself. Plenty of info relegated to supplemental material, but may actually get added proper in a port/remake. I'm reminded this is what happened with Ogma's backstory. His past as a gladiatorial pit fighter was only revealed in the supplemental material... until New Mystery finally added it to a game. So yeah, it can go either way. And yeah, heh, most of the Silque stuff was the author's invention, so that was unlikely to be made canon to begin with.

41 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Some other interesting things to note, Sabre appears is a badass in all adaptations including Shadows of Valentia while in the original Gaiden he's a drunkard with only a single line of dialogue. Kliff dies in both the manga and the novel, at it seems like Jedah has the same design in both the novel and the manga which is also different looking from his Gaiden design (and his Shadows of Valentia design). He looks more normal human like in both of the early adaptations.

We'll probably get it some day, but I wouldn't expect it soon. Gaiden isn't at the top of their list. I voted it in their next game to translate poll though.

Heh, poor Kliff. Hmm, looking at that picture of Jedah from the novel, it does has some resemblance to his Gaiden portrait. Yeah, outside the blue-ish skin (the one thing they choose to keep in the remake apparently XD), it wasn't that much changed.

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Gaiden Duma actually had wings too, though it's not immediately obvious just looking at still images of his sprites.

Doma.png.0fcdc53c3baa532f8a2a459bb4cda6be.png

It's even more obvious in his map sprite where he flaps them. But I can't even find a still image of that.

Oh yes, had seen that pointed out before. Assuming it was already planned, it makes sense if it was a detail the author was told about. Hence making the wings more overt in looking like that of a dragon's.

10 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I like Celica deliberately seeking out bandits, pirates and other scum to fight. Its kind of her duty. Her scumbag father is the primary reason eastern Zofia has completely collapsed so its nice to see Celica try and fix it.

True. That's another detail to keep in mind when considering their argument. Since she's the princess and all, she sees it as having to do something, which in her mind is seeking Mila out. But seeing Alm, who both at the time don't know of his true heritage, she tries to use that in an attempt to make him back down. Aided that she's still fretting over her vision, then.

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53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Gaiden Duma actually had wings too, though it's not immediately obvious just looking at still images of his sprites.

Doma.png.0fcdc53c3baa532f8a2a459bb4cda6be.png

It's even more obvious in his map sprite where he flaps them. But I can't even find a still image of that.

 

I definitely remember his sprite seen in motion looking a lot more like a dragon, yes. I can back this up.

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I started a new Echoes playthrough and I can't help but notice how utterly correct my views from the previous playthroughs were. Python is still a garbage unit, Clive is still a garbage person, Celica's boat chapters are still a lot of fun and Alm's map are still bland aside from the occasional gems like Desaix fortress.

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7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, I agree that Silque joining Alm's party is what the game intends to happen, even as it gives you the chance to turn her down. What bugs me is Silque's reason for turning down Celica - that "she still has her part to play in all of this". Which is... what, exactly? Waiting to die in a cave? Going off to an unseen village? If she's been waiting for Mila to "show her the way", after a surprise rejection from Alm, maybe Celica's visit is a sign of what to do. Maybe it was even Mila's plan that Alm turned her down, so that she could have the chance to aid Celica.

Now, it could be that Silque has her own plans, that she just doesn't reveal. But the way they explain her not joining Celica comes across an excuse, intended to fit the game design that says "we don't want Silque playable on Celica's route". Compare to Forsyth and Python - their loyalty is to the Deliverance, so if it's a choice between continuing to defend their hideout, and joining a total stranger on some ill-thought-out pilgrimage, of course they would choose the former.

She has her part to play by healing those in the war, Celica wants to do her own thing and avoid the war. Silque's ending specifically in both Gaiden and Echoes makes clear that she's an important part of healing. She also doesn't remain there forever, she disappears. This proves that it was just a cute little easter egg and nice way to establish more relations for Silque without forcing her to join a route she doesn't fit in. As you said, the game specifically intends Silque to be apart of Alm's party and Alm's alone. 

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On 6/11/2021 at 11:43 AM, Alastor15243 said:

I said this at the start of my Sacred Stones playlog, and I'll say it again: If one country gets invaded by another without having any idea what they did wrong because no attempt at communication was made, it is psychotically rare for the invading country to be in the right. If Rigel were even remotely interested in talking things out, they would have done so by now. Besides, it's not like Alm's saying he'd refuse to negotiate if Rigel suddenly decided to. He's just saying that he's not going to refuse to use force on principle if pacifism would come at the cost of the lives and freedom of his countrymen. Meanwhile Celica's acting like she genuinely thinks this war could be solved satisfactorily without even one more drop of blood being shed.

And this right here basically summarizes the entire problem I have with this argument between them. SoV is a story about duality. Alm and Celica are dualistic protagonist meant to foil each other and this argument between them is supposed to highlight that but the problem is that it doesn’t do that at all. At the very least it does a very terrible job at that. If you want these two characters to foil each other then they should actually foil one another. The problem with this argument is that Alm is framed as in the right definitively and Celica kind of accuses him of things that aren’t true. What bothers isn’t the fact that Alm is right. It’s that he’s not wrong at all in his argument because it’s not like Rigel is open to negotiations or anything. And it’s not for lack of trying on his end either because he does try to do that but it doesn’t work. Meaning Celica is just wrong about everything and Alm is just right about everything. That’s not how you write a good foil relationship. And the story only really goes down hill from here. 

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5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Although, hmm, I wonder now. Making Silque's mother a Rigelian in the remake and that she left her at a priory, like in the novel, is either a coincidence or someone had read the novel and got inspired. Since it's too specific. But then, it's only those two details that match, since anything else (she and Alm being milk-siblings, Silque's mother apparently having helped Mycen move Alm to Ram, and also being Kliff's mother), is absent. So it could still go either way.

I think the big hurdle about them sharing a mother this time around is that from what we hear Kliff's mother is supposed to be a very unpleasant lady. Her persona as an overbearing gossip addict doesn't seem like the behavior of a former Duma cultist. 

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4 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the big hurdle about them sharing a mother this time around is that from what we hear Kliff's mother is supposed to be a very unpleasant lady. Her persona as an overbearing gossip addict doesn't seem like the behavior of a former Duma cultist. 

That's kinda the point.

Since they didn't made the decision to do it like the novel, they could do whatever they want with Kliff's mother. The character is non-existent in Gaiden, so it's not like they were preserving something that the novel contradicted.

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4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

And this right here basically summarizes the entire problem I have with this argument between them. SoV is a story about duality. Alm and Celica are dualistic protagonist meant to foil each other and this argument between them is supposed to highlight that but the problem is that it doesn’t do that at all. At the very least it does a very terrible job at that. If you want these two characters to foil each other then they should actually foil one another. The problem with this argument is that Alm is framed as in the right definitively and Celica kind of accuses him of things that aren’t true. What bothers isn’t the fact that Alm is right. It’s that he’s not wrong at all in his argument because it’s not like Rigel is open to negotiations or anything. And it’s not for lack of trying on his end either because he does try to do that but it doesn’t work. Meaning Celica is just wrong about everything and Alm is just right about everything. That’s not how you write a good foil relationship. And the story only really goes down hill from here. 

"Duality" was a thing made up by the fanbase. Ever since Gaiden, it was always Alm doing the most stuff while Celica was passive support that had to be saved by Alm in the end. Kaga in his earlier stories tended to make one army super righteous and correct while another faction is either misguided or evil. It was so set up for Alm that Rudolf planned all long for Alm to do what he did while Celica didn't have an equivalent. Alm was handed literal Rigelian generals in the form of Zeke. Gaiden's more about the love between Alm and Celica and overcoming adversity, nothing was said about it all being equal alas.

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's kinda the point.

Since they didn't made the decision to do it like the novel, they could do whatever they want with Kliff's mother. The character is non-existent in Gaiden, so it's not like they were preserving something that the novel contradicted.

Tbh, I'm kind of glad they didn't do it like the novel. Feels extremely cheesy and just plain... off that this one random cleric is suddenly a mother figure or the sister of a random villager. I like Silque better that she's just an independent lady, not another love interest or half sibling.

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8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I started a new Echoes playthrough and I can't help but notice how utterly correct my views from the previous playthroughs were. Python is still a garbage unit, Clive is still a garbage person, Celica's boat chapters are still a lot of fun and Alm's map are still bland aside from the occasional gems like Desaix fortress.

Ironically, these boat battles are exactly where my patience stops and I quit playing this game, every single time. 🙃

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17 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I started a new Echoes playthrough and I can't help but notice how utterly correct my views from the previous playthroughs were. Python is still a garbage unit, Clive is still a garbage person, Celica's boat chapters are still a lot of fun and Alm's map are still bland aside from the occasional gems like Desaix fortress.

And that’s what makes him one of the better characters in this story because it’s a character flaw that he does indeed grow from.

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

And that’s what makes him one of the better characters in this story because it’s a character flaw that he does indeed grow from.

Scheming to abuse the talent of a commoner before removing him when he served his purpose is a bit more than just a flaw.  Its not just a flawed worldview but also a seemingly ruthless desire to beat down what doesn't fit that worldview. 

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18 hours ago, Ottservia said:

At the very least it does a very terrible job at that. If you want these two characters to foil each other then they should actually foil one another. The problem with this argument is that Alm is framed as in the right definitively and Celica kind of accuses him of things that aren’t true.

I do see a fairly cogent differences between them in this conversation. Celica is always asking questions, trying to discover why things are the way they are, and trying to find better solutions to things, while Alm makes it clear that he doesn't care about the why, and only thinks he can solve things with his sword. When they meet resistance, Celica gets more impassioned, while Alm calmly resolves to continue on, even over a cliff.

People like to point at Celica's questioning if Alm will claim the throne as if it were out of line, but it doesn't come out of no where. Alm makes it clear with his whole "my station doesn't matter" line that he intends to break the status quo of this feudal society, and all of his leadership is my duty bit is hitting on some Noblesse Oblige territory; Alm's rhetoric is leading to that question of will he take the throne. Plus taking the throne would solve some serious issues the Deliverance has once it takes over Zophia, as they need some entity to govern it. She asks it in anger, but it is a question that needs an answer, and he hasn't answered it yet. Clive even thinks he might claim it all the way in act 4...

Additionally, there is this odd thing I notice, where people act like Alm being charismatic makes him always in the right, but it doesn't. Look at what he says and does, and he isn't as perfect as so many people say. He unwittingly murders his own father when the man isn't even trying to fight back, and this isn't out of character for him, just the progression of flaws that people don't like to think of as flaws.

 

19 hours ago, Ottservia said:

What bothers isn’t the fact that Alm is right.

But he isn't. Alm brushes aside Celica's comments about Rudolph without a second thought, when it shouldn't be. He thinks the arrival of the missing princess will fix everything, which she doesn't, and he is more naive than Celica for saying that she could. He insists war is the only way, with logic that holds no water. Why would soldiers fight has more answers to it than because war is the only way to solve your problems Alm...just listen to the motivations for fighting that the other villagers have already given

 

19 hours ago, Ottservia said:

It’s that he’s not wrong at all in his argument because it’s not like Rigel is open to negotiations or anything.

But Desaix clearly is, he even laments Clive not agreeing to his demands for Mathilda's release, and Rigel is clearly negotiating with Desaix, so before they killed him, they could have negotiated with Rigel through Desaix. If Alm felt diplomacy was a part of his duty (like fighting apparently is) he could have gotten involved in these negotiations between Clive and Desaix, and might have reached some solution with less bloodshed...until he killed Desaix.

 

20 hours ago, Ottservia said:

And it’s not for lack of trying on his end either because he does try to do that but it doesn’t work.

I assume you are talking about the transition between act 3 and act 4, immediately after he realizes Celica is not only the princess, but that it was only thanks to her that he could save Zophia from drowning, where he tries to negotiate with Rigel, and stops before receiving a response, and invades while Rigel is passively holding their own border. I will note this was after killing an easier avenue for diplomacy by means of Desaix. Additionally the Deliverance has retaken Zophia, killed the ruler of Zophia that Rigel recognized, and hasn't installed a new ruler for Rigel to negotiate with. Of course Rigel didn't respond, how would Rigel expect anything Alm agreed to be held to, when he hands control over to someone else who wasn't a part of these negotiations. Alm needs a Zophian ruler to negotiate with, or at least officially agree to the negotiations with Rigel. Alm attempts to negotiate with Rigel are similar to a man attempting to drive car after flushing the keys down the drain...he needs a new set of keys, and until he gets them I wouldn't exactly call it trying.

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5 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I do see a fairly cogent differences between them in this conversation. Celica is always asking questions, trying to discover why things are the way they are, and trying to find better solutions to things, while Alm makes it clear that he doesn't care about the why, and only thinks he can solve things with his sword. When they meet resistance, Celica gets more impassioned, while Alm calmly resolves to continue on, even over a cliff.

People like to point at Celica's questioning if Alm will claim the throne as if it were out of line, but it doesn't come out of no where. Alm makes it clear with his whole "my station doesn't matter" line that he intends to break the status quo of this feudal society, and all of his leadership is my duty bit is hitting on some Noblesse Oblige territory; Alm's rhetoric is leading to that question of will he take the throne. Plus taking the throne would solve some serious issues the Deliverance has once it takes over Zophia, as they need some entity to govern it. She asks it in anger, but it is a question that needs an answer, and he hasn't answered it yet. Clive even thinks he might claim it all the way in act 4...

No but she is the only one in that argument to raise her voice and get overly emotional when Alm is relatively calm. Like Alastor said. She has an emotional outburst while Alm, at worst, is just innocently ignorant. In that way, Celica is definitively painted as the unreasonable one. Because she is the only one to raise her voice and get mad. Alm doesn’t shout back at her. He just acts like the dense harem protagonist he is. It paints him as the more reasonable party because he is which shouldn’t be happening if they’re both supposed to be wrong. 

 

10 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Additionally, there is this odd thing I notice, where people act like Alm being charismatic makes him always in the right, but it doesn't. Look at what he says and does, and he isn't as perfect as so many people say. He unwittingly murders his own father when the man isn't even trying to fight back, and this isn't out of character for him, just the progression of flaws that people don't like to think of as flaws.

1. that’s the only time his flaws are punished if at all.

2. Even then it’s not framed that way. because before the fight even begins, Alm direcly states that he cannot bring himself to hate Rudolf despite everything the man is supposedly responsible for. Which if this scene was supposed to highlight his supposed flaws, then he flat out would not have said that. Cause what flaw is it supposedly punishing? If it’s a blind hatred towards Rigel then that line before the battle makes no sense. You even have Rudolf calling Alm “a man of mercy” which if that was his flaw then that line of dialogue makes no sense. If it’s his recklessness, then it’s not emphasised enough. This is supposed to be the climax of his character arc and in that sense it is the story’s job to make sure we understand the flaw that is being punished. The story didn’t do a good job of building up that flaw to this point. In fact it was doing the opposite. So I ask again what flaw is it supposed to be punishing?

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2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

She has an emotional outburst while Alm, at worst, is just innocently ignorant.

Ignorance isn't innocence. Alm ends that scene by showing how he could have known, but didn't, and the reason for that ignorance is the core of his flaw.

 

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

1. that’s the only time his flaws are punished if at all.

It isn't, its just the only time so blatant that even those actively trying their best to ignore all the other times he is punished for it ,can no longer ignore it. Some may seem to occur only if you fail, but the added pressure placed upon you by avoiding it is the consequences of his flaws when you do succeed despite Alm.

 

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 

2. Even then it’s not framed that way. because before the fight even begins, Alm direcly states that he cannot bring himself to hate Rudolf despite everything the man is supposedly responsible for.

And yet he kills him despite that. Honestly I don't see Alm hating Rudolph would play into things, Alm's flaw has never been an emotional one, but a cerebral one.

 

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Which if this scene was supposed to highlight his supposed flaws, then he flat out would not have said that. Cause what flaw is it supposedly punishing? If it’s a blind hatred towards Rigel then that line before the battle makes no sense.

Alm's flaw isn't hatred. I have never claimed it is, its that he charges ahead without thinking through the consequences of his actions.

 

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

If it’s his recklessness, then it’s not emphasised enough. This is supposed to be the climax of his character arc and in that sense it is the story’s job to make sure we understand the flaw that is being punished. The story didn’t do a good job of building up that flaw to this point. In fact it was doing the opposite. So I ask again what flaw is it supposed to be punishing?

Perhaps recklessness isn't the perfect word for it. Alm recognizes that Rudolph is sympathetic enough not to hate, but he doesn't try to find a way to solve things without bloodshed despite that. He had all the information he needed to figure out his relationship with Rudolph (and even figured out he could ask Clive for the answer), in Act 3, but he didn't follow through on it, and can't use it at this critical junction. Its this willingness to act in the face of knowing ignorance (or willingness to plan beyond attack) that jumps out to me as his flaw. So many times I see a better way for him, if he would just think things through before he acted. If they make it hard to identify his flaw it is because they always take pains to divorce it from the cliche emotional shorthand that usually goes with that. Its a cold flaw, more like the cold knowing ignorance that lets people ignore problems like global warming, and I like that about Alm's dynamic.

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5 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alm's flaw isn't hatred. I have never claimed it is, its that he charges ahead without thinking through the consequences of his actions.

You really, really can't call that "Alm's flaw" when Celica is significantly more guilty of it.

Edited by Alastor15243
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