Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Eltosian Kadath]

49 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

You really, really can't call that "Alm's flaw" when Celica is far, far more guilty of it.

Is she? She doesn't always share her idea, and doesn't value her life as much as she should, but thinking things through is something she does.

Lets start with what she said while still at port

Quote

Celica: Regardless, the man is right. We’ll not get anywhere until ships are free to sail again.

Boey: What do you propose, milady?

Celica: Let’s gather what help we can find. The sea is only the start. Zofia is at war, and ravaged by Terrors besides. We’ll not make it very far traveling alone. We need allies. Strong ones.

She doesn't just want one ship to sneak her to the mainland, she wants all the ships free to sail again, and she recruits Saber to do do so.
 

Quote

 

Celica: Hold a moment. If we were to deal with this Barth, would this stretch of ocean be safer?

Old Timer: Well, yes, undoubtedly—but no sane person picks a fight with a pirate king!

Saber: Whoa there, lass. I signed up for a nice, easy escort job, not to storm some pirate hold.

Celica: Mmm… I see. …Very well then. I shall lead the charge myself. You need only worry about keeping me safe.

Saber: Now just a—

Celica: The people of that island are suffering under the tyranny of those pirates. I can’t stand by knowing starving innocents are being routinely plundered.

Saber: Oh, for the love of… Look, I ain’t sure why I have to remind you of this, but you’re on a mission. And you can’t finish it if you keep pokin’ your nose where it don’t belong.

Celica: I have no intention of wasting time on idle philanthropy, Saber. But there are no guarantees I’ll ever return from this journey. I would at least like to ensure peace to those who have been so kind to me. Is that so unreasonable?

When they have the opportunity to slip by, she intentionally doesn't to accomplish a goal she set out with, to free the seas from the pirates.This comes as a surprise to Saber and the captain, as she is playing things close to the chest, and Saber points out she should value her life more, but she has thought this through. She even tries to get them to surrender

Quote

 

Celica: Are you the one they call Barth? I order you to halt your piracy and leave these waters at once!

Barth: Gar har har! I’ll do no such thing, ye shrill woman! No one enters the lair of the Pirate King and starts squawkin’ orders but me!

Saber: You see, lass? What’d I tell you about trying to reason with sea dogs?

Barth: Yar, bold words from a fool man. Well, I’ll put yer steel to the test! Have at ’em, boys! Take the man’s guts for garters, but leave the wench alive. I’ll not have a single scratch on her… Ruins the sale price, it do! Yar har ho!

Saber: See what I mean?

Celica: Redemption is a lost cause for a man like you, Barth. Your reign as pirate king ends here!

and recognizes the meaning of Valabar's presence, and lays out a plan for dealing with him.

Quote

 

Celica: I heard talk in port about a man seeking revenge on Barth for killing his family… Perhaps this is his crew? Let’s advance with caution and try to aid their cause.

A lot more thought and planning ahead went into this than Alm's battles.

 

Seabound shrine seems contradictory with the Kamui recruited version of it

Quote

Kamui: Whoa, whoa, whoa—hey, Priestess! Did you forget our little chat about staying clear of the Seabound Shrine? Because this is not staying clear! This is the exact OPPOSITE of staying clear!

Celica: I’m sorry, did we discuss that? I must’ve been preoccupied… What if there’s something of use here? Surely you would want to— Ooooh, I remember now. You’re scared of necrodragons, aren’t you, Kamui? How careless of me. It completely slipped my mind!

Kamui: Slipped your mind… That’s it. I’m waiting on the boat.

Celica: Er, actually…

Kamui: GyaaaeeeeeeeEEEEEEEK! It’s HERE!

 

but lets look at what Kamui actually said at this "little chat"

Quote

 

(If you talk to Kamui after recruiting Valbar)

Kamui: You joining up with this lot, Valbar? Interesting… Well, it’s your call—I don’t have a preference either way. Oh, but let me ask you one question: Do you have Seraphim magic? If not, then you’d best stay clear of the Seabound Shrine. Necrodragons are the one thing I absolutely refuse to tangle with.

He qualifies his statement by asking about Seraphim. If Celica has Seraphim magic, than her confusion here makes sense, until she finally realizes that he is afraid of necrodragons. The game gives you all the means to think this through and get Seraphim ahead of time to deal with them, and

Quote

(If Celica has learned Seraphim)

Celica: Goodness. What a horrifying creature. But I have the Seraphim spell in my quiver now. May its light guide your lost soul on to slumber eternal!

this added line show that Celica recognizes that as well.

I will add that the Valibar died version

Quote

 

(If you talk to Kamui after Valbar died)

Kamui: I can’t believe that damn fool Valbar is dead. What happens now? Not to be crass, but we had a contract, and now there’s no way to collect.. …Say, any chance you lot want to hire me on?

makes no mention of necrodragons at all, which makes the confusion even more pronounced...

Edited June 14, 2021 by Eltosian Kadath
accidently used a spoiler instead of quote box for one of them.

[Alastor15243]

Shadows of Valentia Day 15: The Avalanche

Hey everyone!

Good news!

I found out where all of Kliff's speed levels went!

I just started a new H5 file in Shadow Dragon a few days ago, and Cain has been proccing speed... consistently... without fail...

...For nine fucking levels.

He's currently at level 10 with fifteen speed.

And it's kinda sad that that's just barely enough to get him to start doubling, even though it's mind-bogglingly blessed. But getting this lucky is kind of hilarious and almost makes up for my terrible luck with Kliff in this run. I wonder how long it'll keep up.

So Tobin's telling Alm he should apologize to Celica.

Shut up, Tobin.

You watch Celica run off in a huff and you automatically assume it's Alm's fault. At any rate, however, that's not really an option for Alm. What would he even apologize for? Going to war? Even if he suddenly decided that Celica being mad at him means that he did something wrong, apologizing would ring hollow if he didn't actually plan to stop the war. Beyond that? Nothing. He never said anything to her that he could possibly be in a position to think was hurtful even by accident. She's the only person with anything concrete to apologize about.

Gray: Seriously, Tobin? Y-you're passing out relationship advice now?

Yeah, Gray, I'm on your side here. Tobin knows jack shit about the situation and still acts like he has anything to tell Alm.

Anyway, on to Celica's side...

Celica: I know the Mother will reveal a path to save Zofia that doesn't involve violence.

Right, aside from the numerous belligerent forces that are in your way, forces that are always either rape-and-pillage criminals or undead monsters or psycho cultists, and so very conveniently not the normal soldiers Alm has to fight.

Gee, it sure was nice of the game designers to hand-sculpt your entire journey as to ensure that your moral convictions about the pointlessness of war never have to be put to any practical test whatsoever.

...Sorry, it's just that's one of my most hated tropes of all time. When a character has some kind of anti-violence moral code that the story bends over backwards to keep from being put to any serious test.

Ah yes, and Boey talks about how Celica refuses to admit she's the princess because othrwise she'd be made to lead the Deliverance herself. But don't worry, she'll undergo character development and come to understand that her royal heritage and responsibilities aren't just things she can run away from...

...once she's far, far away from anyone who can make her actually fulfill those responsibilities anyway, aside from just ordering someone to open a gate.

Anyway, Conrad shows up and warns her about the terrible landslides in the area, and tells her that her best chance of getting to the Temple of Mila is through the western mountains. But in her current emotional state, she decides she's rather lead her and her entire team through the blatantly more dangerous path rather than risk bumping into Alm again. Real mature, Celica.

...Well, okay, the reason she gives to the party (who are split on what to do) is that they're just in a huge hurry and can't afford any detours.

Celica: If we're attacked, I have faith we can prevail.

...Okay, this is the thing about Celica. Okay, yes, she does frequently explain the reasons for why she rushes into danger. Like, yes, she explained why she decided to charge Barth's stronghold and all that jazz. But it's always about why she thinks it's the right thing to do, and never why she thinks she can handle it. That thing she said up there? That's the closest thing she ever says on that subject. That she has faith. Possibly literally. So no, I don't really think she's better than Alm in this regard.

Celica: Besides, even the cleverest trap will betray some sign to a watchful eye.

Aha.

Aha.

Ahahahahahaha.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

...Heh... and...

...and what does that say about you, Celica?

...In fairness, yes, this is better than she's done before in the whole “why we can handle it” department. But really, I'll have to pay attention to see if Alm is any worse. And also, uh... yeah, we're gonna see in a second how sound that reasoning was.

Arcanist: Do not mistake me for the base fools who came before.

Kinda hard not to, given you have the same name and portrait.

Oh, wow! Look at that, Celica! The trap was sprung! The exact one you were warned about literally minutes ago! And it still took you by complete surprise!

And she's only alive because Conrad saved her from her own recklessness and arrogance.

...I'm pretty sure Celica wasn't portrayed like this in the original. It's kinda ridiculous how the expansions to Celica's character have so frequently revolved around having her make stupid-as-shit decisions. I genuinely get the impression the original Gaiden game had more respect for her as a character.

Celica: I owe you an apology. You warned me this would happen, and yet I –

Conrad: Do not apologize. But stop allowing petty emotion to cloud your judgment. Your choices steer the fates of more than just yourself.

YES. PLEASE.

Celica: You're right. I can offer no rebuttal.

And I also don't think you ever put this advice into practical use.

Celica: But back to the matter at hand, the road is well and truly blocked now.

It, uh... really doesn't look like it. At all.

Anyway, back to Alm. After an interesting chat with Python about nobility politics and how he doesn't trust the Deliverance in saying they'll get titles if they work hard enough, it's time to head outside and start Act 3, where we can control both Alm and Celica. Yeah, what I'll be doing is alternating who's in control each time someone gets to a checkpoint where they can remain unmolested by reinforcements.

First battle, and Fernand shows up to fight us. And we get an in-engine cutscene that's... a million times better than anything like it in Fates.

...Though the fact that it fades out while Clive is still talking is pretty lame. But anyway, Fernand reveals that Alm isn't Mycen's grandson, at least not by blood, though the Deliverance isn't exactly ready to take his word for it.

But now we're fighting a handful of enemies spread out into mostly two teams. Nothing really that complicated to plan, but I plan to take out Fernand's group first and I position my units to get that done as soon as possible.

Begin.

Ah yes. And this is where the game explains how witches work. Witches piss me off. Not just because they can be anywhere and attack anyone, but because... they tend to be rather anxiety-inducingly finicky about when exactly they teleport. In-story, however, they're utterly horrifying. Women who have sacrificed their souls to Duma for immense power. Alm realizes that if Rigel takes over, the people of Zofia could easily be subjected to the same fate (as we will see later, Delthea comes close).

...Okay, so are the supports in this game really not progress-gated? Because I have two supports unlocked immediately at the start of my first battle of Act 3, and I remember having Alm and Faye's A support unlocked at the start of Act 4, and that can't be a coincidence.

Okay, as terrible as Faye is as a character, this entire support between her and Alm is comedy gold. My favorite lines are Alm's confused “You're excited about... bread?” and Faye saying she stayed up all night thinking about how Alm touched her hand while passing her said bread, and then goes “Oh, but don't worry, I drank a bunch of tea, so I'm ready to kill in your name!”

I just love the way she says it, even though the line itself reads like yandere trash.

But yeah, Alm seems to think she's just... not handling the war well, and coming up with some rather unhealthy coping mechanisms, and that's why she's talking so much like a yandere when really she's just incredibly (but harmlessly) obsessive.

And now for Faye and Silque's A support. It's a small thing where Faye realizes she actually missed having Silque around after Silque finally got the hint and stopped trying to socialize with her.

...But they don't actually talk about anything. Not even the slightest hint of the start of a conversation that then gets trailed off. They just talk about... talking later.

And now Tobin has a talk with Kliff. Yep. These are definitely progress-gated. Which just begs the question of why they let Tobin and Gray have that conversation hinting to the Clair drama before Clair even showed up.

So yeah, they have a similar making up over the whole “antisocial” thing, though for obviously different reasons...

Chriiiiiist do I wish the supports in this game weren't so laaaaAAAAAAAAAAME.

And now Tobin talks with Gray. And this is like the fifth time I accidentally typed Alm instead of Gray. I don't know why.

...God, I'm having flashbacks to Three Houses and its insistence on progress gating. Cuz here's the problem with progress gating: if you're even slightly diligent with support growths, it makes you unlock a bunch of supports all at once, in this intimidating, frustrating wall. And it can get even more obnoxious if these supports are even remotely substantial in length.

Yeah, I'm just gonna put this out there right now: When we get to Three Houses? Every time I get a wall of supports unlocked due to reaching the latest progress gate? Reading those supports is literally all I'm going to do that day. Reading support after support after support after support without any immediate tangible gameplay benefits, in a game where you essentially unlock every combination of supports in your army without even trying... if I had to do anything other than that in one day, I think I'd just scream. Seeing the support menu light up in 3H frustrates me nearly to tears with the incoming tedium I don't feel I can skip.

Anyway, Tobin says that he's noticing that ironically, Clair repeatedly telling Gray to fuck off actually shows she's far more comfortable “letting her hair down” around him than anyone else in the army. Weird reasoning, and I don't really buy it.

But on to actual gameplay! Faye unlocks rescue, so now we have the warp-rescue combo, kickass. But since Fernand's group seems to be stationary for now, I'm gonna focus on the central group. Kliff will fight the archers, since thankfully he's still fast enough to double almost anything with 1-2 range or higher.

Kliff has an awesome crit rate, between his ridiculous skill/luck and Tobin bonus, and also 100% hit, I think thanks to his Alm bonus. Still, I got lucky when he scored 18% crits on both archers.

Yeah, this is what I mean. The witches still haven't teleported yet, despite having the skill. I just know they're gonna do something terrifying soon, but right now they're just running towards my army.

Kliff levels.

SKILL. AND. LUCK.

...Okay, a witch finally decided to teleport, and she teleported... behind my army. Without attacking anyone the same turn.

Does anyone know what the hell decides what goes through a witch's head?

Forsythe's first level up is attack, speed, luck and resistance, which is pretty fantastic. Pity the odds of using him are tiny. I was just having him, Python and Lukas (stragglers of my fighting force) take out that witch that teleported behind them.

I love the shield bash finishing blow Lukas uses as a knight. Really nice. I still think the GBA animations are the best in the series, but Echoes is really up there in terms of animations.

Kliff finishes off the other witch he went into battle with using his curved shot, and the remaining enemies in Fernand's group are taken out.

Fernand: Damn, I've been defeated! But I can't fall here! Or ever! I need to live so I can die offscreen later!

Tobin gets the boss kill since we wanna give him combat exp while that's still something he's useful for. He gets an HPsauce level up. Yaaaaay.

And Alm demonstrates a good sense of the battlefield by pointing out that the retreating members of the army reporting back to the enemy main force means they can't stay here and rest or they'll swiftly be swarmed. But Clive is distracted.

...Apparently only he heard the talk about Mycen never having children. Nobody else in the army did. Funny how that sound actually carried as little as it would in real life, in a series (and in fact in a game where sound carries ridiculously far across the battlefield all the time.

Well, looking at the size of the update, I'm thinking this is a good place to stop. Sorry it was a bit gameplay-light, but this is a pretty story-heavy game.

...And the next one... will only get even more so.

Christ, how the fuck long is Three Houses going to take me?

8/8 is closer than I'd like. There's no way in hell I'm going to finish it in time for the second anniversary.

I'll have been doing this... for two years of my life before this is over. That's... kinda crazy to think about.

...Kinda makes me wonder what I'm gonna do with my free time when I'm done.

...Stay safe, everyone.

[Acacia Sgt]

12 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Does anyone know what the hell decides what goes through a witch's head?

As per the lore, should be Duma. But well, right now his sanity is out for lunch so it's the blind guiding the blind there.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Etrurian emperor]

Another thing that reflects poorly on Clive. 

When a nice old man who knew Mycen for years says the old general had no grandchildren then this friendly grandpa is just confused. 
When a not so nice Fernand, the evil traitor who openly hates Alm's guts and who despises anyone outside the nobility says Mycen has no grandchildren he's suddenly a reliable source by who's words Alm should be replaced. 

Sadly this is also the part where the writers started having a bit too much fun depicting Celica as a big dummy. With several factions out to nab her there are good reasons as to why Conrad could show up just in time to shield her. But him clearly telling Celica that the direction she's going into has a trap laid for her, and Celica then deliberately walking straight towards the trap is not such a good reason. 

[Venger_06]

35 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So Tobin's telling Alm he should apologize to Celica.

Shut up, Tobin.

You watch Celica run off in a huff and you automatically assume it's Alm's fault. At any rate, however, that's not really an option for Alm. What would he even apologize for? Going to war? Even if he suddenly decided that Celica being mad at him means that he did something wrong, apologizing would ring hollow if he didn't actually plan to stop the war. Beyond that? Nothing. He never said anything to her that he could possibly be in a position to think was hurtful even by accident. She's the only person with anything concrete to apologize about.

Gray: Seriously, Tobin? Y-you're passing out relationship advice now?

Yeah, Gray, I'm on your side here. Tobin knows jack shit about the situation and still acts like he has anything to tell Alm.

This conversation sums it up:

Quote

Julius : Look, Chris, you might win the battle, but you're gonna lose the war. Sometimes it's not about just being right. Hey, look, you need to apologize to your mother.

Chris : Why?

Julius : Because she will make your life miserable. Do you know how many times I've been right and still had to apologize? 469,531 times!

Narrator : And counting!

Chris : How is that even possible?

Julius: Because she doesn't care!

Chris : It doesn't make any sense!

Julius : Exactly. Look, that's the number one rule of living with women: Nothing makes sense. When you learn this, then you'll finally understand what it is to be a man. Wrong or right, you still have to be sorry.

 

37 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Sorry, it's just that's one of my most hated tropes of all time. When a character has some kind of anti-violence moral code that the story bends over backwards to keep from being put to any serious test.

*Conquest Corrin intensifies*

[Acacia Sgt]

Maybe they should stop trying to apply that trope to the protagonist of a war game where the point is to fight, fight, fight else there's no game.

Though seriously, it's already reflected in how you have to outright kill the likes of Barth (who is in turn made to act in such way a battle to kill him is the only option to stop him), for all the "must seek peaceful solutions" bit.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Alastor15243]

10 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Another thing that reflects poorly on Clive. 

When a nice old man who knew Mycen for years says the old general had no grandchildren then this friendly grandpa is just confused. 
When a not so nice Fernand, the evil traitor who openly hates Alm's guts and who despises anyone outside the nobility says Mycen has no grandchildren he's suddenly a reliable source by who's words Alm should be replaced. 

Well in fairness it's depicted as more "shit, now two sources are saying this" more than "oh, now Fernand's saying it, it might be true". He actually reacts with disbelief but then remembers what the old man said earlier.

[Shadow Mir]

46 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Okay, a witch finally decided to teleport, and she teleported... behind my army. Without attacking anyone the same turn.

Does anyone know what the hell decides what goes through a witch's head?

Good ol' artificial stupidity there. Always a delight. Except when it's NPCs, that is.

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

You watch Celica run off in a huff and you automatically assume it's Alm's fault. At any rate, however, that's not really an option for Alm. What would he even apologize for? Going to war? Even if he suddenly decided that Celica being mad at him means that he did something wrong, apologizing would ring hollow if he didn't actually plan to stop the war. Beyond that? Nothing. He never said anything to her that he could possibly be in a position to think was hurtful even by accident. She's the only person with anything concrete to apologize about.

 

 

It's almost like the game was meant to present an argument of dualistic philosophy and actually thought it had done that when it in fact didn't.

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Right, aside from the numerous belligerent forces that are in your way, forces that are always either rape-and-pillage criminals or undead monsters or psycho cultists, and so very conveniently not the normal soldiers Alm has to fight.

Gee, it sure was nice of the game designers to hand-sculpt your entire journey as to ensure that your moral convictions about the pointlessness of war never have to be put to any practical test whatsoever.

While I don't mind it from a story perspective splitting up the whole conflict like that, it does make one wonder how the war actually functions on the entire eastern half of the continent. Are the main Zofian and Rigelian forces just completely ignoring the eastern half of the continent? Surely with proper armies they could steam roll some of the groups in control there. Or alternatively are there in fact battles happening here that Celica is just avoiding and someone other than Alm is in charge of?

 

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Arcanist: Do not mistake me for the base fools who came before.

Kinda hard not to, given you have the same name and portrait.

Okay truth be told I've been waiting for you to resume this play through all weekend just to complain about this point. Remember when I said I think the generic Cantor and Brigand boss should have had names as they stood out as characters? Well this Arcanist absolutely falls into this category. He's the one repsonsible for making the permanent divide of the playable characters in the game. And how does he do it? By using some kind of earth magic. Now wouldn't it be conveient if there was already boss in game who had Earth powers. A character who is put in a position of extreme importance for the Duma Faithful? Well there is. His name is Mikhail.

He is the boss in charge of the occupation of the frekaing temple of Mila. And in gaiden he could use the same Upheavel spell as Duma. He is the final enemy Celica fights in this Act of the game. But he's an utterly forgettable character without an ounce of charisma. THEY SHOULD HAVE USED HIM HERE. HE ALREADY HAS THE EARTH SPELL. HE DESERVES THE PROMINANCE. ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS USE A DIFFERENT PNG AND YOU COULD HAVE MADE THIS NOTHING BOSS FEEL LIKE AN ADCUTAL THREAT INSTEAD YOU GAVE THE JOB TO A GENERIC WHO NEVER APPEARS AGAIN. They also took his Upheaval away from him in Echoes and made it Duma exclusive. Which I guess makes Duma more special, but it also makes Mihail more boring.

 

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Celica: But back to the matter at hand, the road is well and truly blocked now.

It, uh... really doesn't look like it. At all.

 

and the traders still manage to use it without hassle.

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Anyway, back to Alm. After an interesting chat with Python about nobility politics and how he doesn't trust the Deliverance in saying they'll get titles if they work hard enough, it's time to head outside and start Act 3, where we can control both Alm and Celica. Yeah, what I'll be doing is alternating who's in control each time someone gets to a checkpoint where they can remain unmolested by reinforcements.

First battle, and Fernand shows up to fight us. And we get an in-engine cutscene that's... a million times better than anything like it in Fates.

 

We get another example of the softining of Alm before this battle, in which literally his only dialogue from Chapter 3 of Gaiden is cut

“Everyone, don't let your guard down. A large brigade from Rigel is

heading our way.

Knights to the front; mages fall back. Fortify our defenses.

Disperse the enemies and pick them off one by one!”

and replaced with this.

Ally Soldier: Sir Alm! Our scouts have spied Rigelian forces up ahead!

Alm: …… …Then the battle begins here.

Lukas: So it seems. The fights ahead will be nothing like our skirmishes in the south. You’ve wounded Rigel’s pride, and they will strike back without mercy. But the spirit of Zofia demands you prevail. There’s no turning back now.

Alm: I know.

 

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Ah yes. And this is where the game explains how witches work. Witches piss me off. Not just because they can be anywhere and attack anyone, but because... they tend to be rather anxiety-inducingly finicky about when exactly they teleport. In-story, however, they're utterly horrifying. Women who have sacrificed their souls to Duma for immense power. Alm realizes that if Rigel takes over, the people of Zofia could easily be subjected to the same fate (as we will see later, Delthea comes close).

 

Delthea's witch stats and the whole vagueness about how much consent is required is something that bothers me which I'll rant about later at the appropriate time.

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...God, I'm having flashbacks to Three Houses and its insistence on progress gating. Cuz here's the problem with progress gating: if you're even slightly diligent with support growths, it makes you unlock a bunch of supports all at once, in this intimidating, frustrating wall. And it can get even more obnoxious if these supports are even remotely substantial in length.

If they were smarter they could just stagger the gates rather than having all of them unlocked after a certain chapter. Put proper effort into progress gatining and you could basically make them base convos (or you know we could actually have base convos, which Shadows of Valentia kind of does).

 

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

...Kinda makes me wonder what I'm gonna do with my free time when I'm done.

...Stay safe, everyone.

Guess you'll just have to move onto the wonderful world of Fire Emblem fangames!

[Etrurian emperor]

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

While I don't mind it from a story perspective splitting up the whole conflict like that, it does make one wonder how the war actually functions on the entire eastern half of the continent. Are the main Zofian and Rigelian forces just completely ignoring the eastern half of the continent? Surely with proper armies they could steam roll some of the groups in control there. Or alternatively are there in fact battles happening here that Celica is just avoiding and someone other than Alm is in charge of?

Probably! There doesn't seem to be anything in the east. Just bandits, deserts and poison swamps. Grief seemed to have carved out his own mini kingdom who Rigel doesn't have a beef with. Not Grief's problem that Lima was a jerk to Rigel. 

I don't think either Alm or Rudolf had time to go deal with bandits while there's a war going on.

[Ottservia]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Sorry, it's just that's one of my most hated tropes of all time. When a character has some kind of anti-violence moral code that the story bends over backwards to keep from being put to any serious test.

 

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Maybe they should stop trying to apply that trope to the protagonist of a war game where the point is to fight, fight, fight else there's no game.

Though seriously, it's already reflected in how you have to outright kill the likes of Barth (who is in turn made to act in such way a battle to kill him is the only option to stop him), for all the "must seek peaceful solutions" bit.

I dunno I quite like the trope because it shows that these characters won’t give up their humanity in the face of the intensely jaded and horrible world around them. It’s what I like about Corrin at any rate. Call it naive or stupid, but it’s a message I think we can all learn from. It’s a hopeful message and one that I quite like. Not everything needs to be this morally gray Grimdark story where the protagonist becomes a jaded asshole by the end. The reason these characters don’t face consequences for not killing is because that’s kind of the point. They have every right to kill but they don’t because of their own moral compass. Obviously the execution/reason varies per story and what ideas that story intends to explore. But I find it to be handled well most of the time. The reason it’s sort of clumsy in Fire Emblem is mostly because you still have to fight these enemies regardless of that message. With how simplistic Fire Emblem’s base gameplay is there’s not much you can really do to show it through gameplay without some sort of gameplay and story segregation. It’s a case of the story needing to tell because it cannot show which I feel is fine. If that’s the story these creators want to tell then that’s the story they want to tell and they have to work with their limitations. 

[Acacia Sgt]

Ironically, Celica might do better in a game like Fallout. Just pass the Speech Check, Celica. XD

But still, Celica still killed Barth. Sure, she doesn't become jaded, and still believes further troubles can be solved diplomatically. Which is great. It's just, FE isn't the best of settings for the trope to shine best at. Unless they pulled out on the "you must pretty much wipe the enemy faction almost to the last man" they like to use, where the lord afterwards lets the survivors live. Or they don't kill the enemy boss.

Kinda like what happens in Four Fanged Offense in Blazing Sword. Despite fighting the Reed Brother to 0HP, they don't die. Diplomacy wins in the end... never mind all the Black Fangs that lost their lives that day. But things did ended with some talking. Sure, Limstella then screw things up to the point the other brother was driven to fight to the death next time they met, but still...

Edited June 14, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 

I dunno I quite like the trope because it shows that these characters won’t give up their humanity in the face of the intensely jaded and horrible world around them. It’s what I like about Corrin at any rate. Call it naive or stupid, but it’s a message I think we can all learn from. It’s a hopeful message and one that I quite like. Not everything needs to be this morally gray Grimdark story where the protagonist becomes a jaded asshole by the end. The reason these characters don’t face consequences for not killing is because that’s kind of the point. They have every right to kill but they don’t because of their own moral compass. Obviously the execution/reason varies per story and what ideas that story intends to explore. But I find it to be handled well most of the time. The reason it’s sort of clumsy in Fire Emblem is mostly because you still have to fight these enemies regardless of that message. With how simplistic Fire Emblem’s base gameplay is there’s not much you can really do to show it through gameplay without some sort of gameplay and story segregation. It’s a case of the story needing to tell because it cannot show which I feel is fine. If that’s the story these creators want to tell then that’s the story they want to tell and they have to work with their limitations. 

The morals aren't really challenged if the universe is bending over backwards to accommodate the character. It's easy to be pacifist when apparently you can just win every battle without killing by simply choosing to rather than it actually taking extra effort. Properly implementing Thracia's capture mechanic as a core feature of the game is one way in which you could use Fire Emblem's mechanics to work in tandem with a more pacifistic narrative.

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The morals aren't really challenged if the universe is bending over backwards to accommodate the character. It's easy to be pacifist when apparently you can just win every battle without killing by simply choosing to rather than it actually taking extra effort. Properly implementing Thracia's capture mechanic as a core feature of the game is one way in which you could use Fire Emblem's mechanics to work in tandem with a more pacifistic narrative.

Who says the morals need to be challenged at all? I personally don’t think they do. If the author wants those morals challenged that’s on them because it’s their story so they can do whatever they want with it. If they don’t want to challenge those ideals, then the author shouldn’t have to because that’s not the story they want to tell and there’s nothing wrong with that.

[Acacia Sgt]

And now I'm reminded Fallout does have a SRPG game.

Ironically, it didn't had the Speech skill.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Who says the morals need to be challenged at all? I personally don’t think they do. If the author wants those morals challenged that’s on them because it’s their story so they can do whatever they want with it. If they don’t want to challenge those ideals, then the author shouldn’t have to because that’s not the story they want to tell and there’s nothing wrong with that.

They're not really doing anything with the idea then. It's about as relevant to the story as the character having brown shoes. If something is important to a character then it has to actually be treated with importance. If a character believes in pacifism then they need an actual opportunity to be a pacifist. Which just isn't happening if the story is subverting it's own logic to completely avoid the character having to be put in a situation where pacifism is actually a real choice and not just an accessory. It's like making a point that the character believes in recycling. Sure that's a great message and all, but unless it's actually playing a part in the story being told then it's basically just an empty platitude, or maybe even propaganda.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

They're not really doing anything with the idea then. It's about as relevant to the story as the character having brown shoes. If something is important to a character then it has to actually be treated with importance. If a character believes in pacifism then they need an actual opportunity to be a pacifist. Which just isn't happening if the story is subverting it's own logic to completely avoid the character having to be put in a situation where pacifism is actually a real choice and not just an accessory. It's like making a point that the character believes in recycling. Sure that's a great message and all, but unless it's actually playing a part in the story being told then it's basically just an empty platitude, or maybe even propaganda.

That depends on the story and there are more ways to challenge that moral beyond what Alastor seems to be suggesting(hell in the case of batman that’s literally the entire point where he doesn’t kill as to not give into hatred and despair despite desperately wanting too). In the case of Corrin, it is challenged just not in the traditional sense. Sure, they don’t directly kill anyone but they’re forced to witness the slaughter of a great many people to which they can do nothing to stop thereby challenging their morals and the choice they made in chapter 6. In conquest specifically it’s a part of the path they need to learn to accept because that was the path they chose. People are going to die and that’s the reality which does have a clear effect on them(especially because Corrin is supposed to be wrong in regards to Conquest’s story). I can name plenty of other examples of this idea being explored in varying ways but I don’t wanna derail the thread too much so I’ll leave it at that.

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That depends on the story and there are more ways to challenge that moral beyond what Alastor seems to be suggesting(hell in the case of batman that’s literally the entire point where he doesn’t kill as to not give into hatred and despair despite desperately wanting too). In the case of Corrin, it is challenged just not in the traditional sense. Sure, they don’t directly kill anyone but they’re forced to witness the slaughter of a great many people to which they can do nothing to stop thereby challenging their morals and the choice they made in chapter 6. In conquest specifically it’s a part of the path they need to learn to accept because that was the path they chose. People are going to die and that’s the reality which does have a clear effect on them(especially because Corrin is supposed to be wrong in regards to Conquest’s story). I can name plenty of other examples of this idea being explored in varying ways but I don’t wanna derail the thread too much so I’ll leave it at that.

Oh of course there are more ways to challenge it. But it still needs to be challenged in some way, or at least be a guiding force of decision. I don't think that's really true for Corrin though. Since the story bends over backwards to try and justify literally invading a peaceful country as a pacifistic decision. If Corrin was about as pacifistic as they are in Birthright, ie not having any desire to kill at all but still wishing to save lives and using their power they have to do so in the way that leads to the lowest casualties, then absolutely nothing would change about Conquest's story. In fact the story would probably be better as Corrin would have to sacrifice more to strive for victory. But instead they made Corrin more pacifistic because what they actually do in Conquest is laughably unjustified and a counter balance was deemed necessary to make them something resembling a good person. Which turns pacifism from a tenet to a Path of Radiance style yes no choice. And in turn as the consequence of making Birthright Corrin and basically every other character seem stupid at best and more evil at worse for not selecting the objectively more moral choice of using a taser sword by just choosing to be a pacifist because it's just that easy a thing to do without ever compromising any goals. I don't say any of this because I think pacifism is stupid or because it necessarily needs to be depicted as a hard thing to do, in fact pacifism is something very important to me. And it's for that reason I think Fates is a trashy story for using something I deem important for quite literal virtue signaling.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

I was surprised about how incredibly hard Berkut's first boss fight was. Then it turned out that a separate cavalry army was standing on the same spot as Berkut, so I had to fight both the miniboss squad and a small cavalry army that shouldn't normally have been there.

 

[Jotari]

Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

I was surprised about how incredibly hard Berkut's first boss fight was. Then it turned out that a separate cavalry army was standing on the same spot as Berkut, so I had to fight both the miniboss squad and a small cavalry army that shouldn't normally have been there.

 

Alm: I’m not quite sure how we just pulled that off… There were only three of them—how did they give us so much trouble?

Clive: Uh, Alm, didn't you see that whole other squadron standing beside them?

XD

 

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I was surprised about how incredibly hard Berkut's first boss fight was. Then it turned out that a separate cavalry army was standing on the same spot as Berkut, so I had to fight both the miniboss squad and a small cavalry army that shouldn't normally have been there.

 

Haha, uh, yeah, uh... exact same thing happened to me too.

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Who says the morals need to be challenged at all? I personally don’t think they do. If the author wants those morals challenged that’s on them because it’s their story so they can do whatever they want with it. If they don’t want to challenge those ideals, then the author shouldn’t have to because that’s not the story they want to tell and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I dunno. Sometimes what the author is trying to tell isn't the correct decision to go with. And its their right to take the story into bad direction but its also the right of the audience to express dissatisfaction with it. 

People are perfectly in their right to tell a story where ''Danny kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet'' but everyone else has the right to consider this really stupid. Or how the writers were perfectly in their right to make Celica a big dummy and inferior to Alm, but that the audience have the right to consider it more thematically fitting if they had made Celica Alm's equal. 

Though as for Corrin I'd say his morals are constantly challenged. Its just that the narration refuses to draw conclusions from it. Corrin's bleeding heart tendencies often backfire horribly but then the story either wishes to go on and pretend it all never happened(Kotaro) or deliberately goes out of its way to paint it as a good thing even if Corrin's babysitters need to go out of their way to clean up the mess(Anthony).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

21 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

But Desaix clearly is, he even laments Clive not agreeing to his demands for Mathilda's release, and Rigel is clearly negotiating with Desaix, so before they killed him, they could have negotiated with Rigel through Desaix. If Alm felt diplomacy was a part of his duty (like fighting apparently is) he could have gotten involved in these negotiations between Clive and Desaix, and might have reached some solution with less bloodshed...until he killed Desaix.

Killing Desaix is a good thing, though. The man is presented as power-hungry and devoid of morals - so no better than Barth or Grieth. And any negotiations would have likely included Desaix remaining in a position of power, which would be intolerable to the Deliverance. And when his original rise to power came from deception, they have no reason to put any faith in his words.

21 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Additionally, there is this odd thing I notice, where people act like Alm being charismatic makes him always in the right, but it doesn't. Look at what he says and does, and he isn't as perfect as so many people say. He unwittingly murders his own father when the man isn't even trying to fight back, and this isn't out of character for him, just the progression of flaws that people don't like to think of as flaws.

Rudolf will nonetheless attack other members of Alm's army, so as its leader, it's Alm's duty to stop him from killing them. And Rudolf won't negotiate, since Alm killing him is an integral part of his convoluted plan, so Alm's only option is to respind with lethal force. "Killing his own father" is not the result of any personal flaws, but of the circumstances in which Alm was placed.

[Samz707]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

And now I'm reminded Fallout does have a SRPG game.

Ironically, it didn't had the Speech skill.

I need to resume Tactics, I liked what I played of it.

But yeah the complete lack of speech is somewhat disappointing. (At least have the odd occasion where there's dialogue options and picking wrong results in a fight/losing potential help/recruits or something.)

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

 

Kinda like what happens in Four Fanged Offense in Blazing Sword. Despite fighting the Reed Brother to 0HP, they don't die. Diplomacy wins in the end... never mind all the Black Fangs that lost their lives that day. But things did ended with some talking. Sure, Limstella then screw things up to the point the other brother was driven to fight to the death next time they met, but still...

At least if I remember (And it does at least with Erik) I think they at least acknowledge that the Reed brother is injured, same with Erik, so yes you reduced their HP to 0 but they're actually injured (and while it's only text, Erik apparently can't even stand so he's actually seriously injured so I actually really like that occasion because we still brought him to near-death.)

So it's not like the person is just 100 percent okay. (*Cough*Kostas*Cough*)

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Celica: Besides, even the cleverest trap will betray some sign to a watchful eye.

Aha.

Aha.

Ahahahahahaha.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

...Heh... and...

...and what does that say about you, Celica?

...In fairness, yes, this is better than she's done before in the whole “why we can handle it” department. But really, I'll have to pay attention to see if Alm is any worse. And also, uh... yeah, we're gonna see in a second how sound that reasoning was.

Oh, wow! Look at that, Celica! The trap was sprung! The exact one you were warned about literally minutes ago! And it still took you by complete surprise!

And she's only alive because Conrad saved her from her own recklessness and arrogance.

...I'm pretty sure Celica wasn't portrayed like this in the original. It's kinda ridiculous how the expansions to Celica's character have so frequently revolved around having her make stupid-as-shit decisions. I genuinely get the impression the original Gaiden game had more respect for her as a character.

Celica: I owe you an apology. You warned me this would happen, and yet I –

Conrad: Do not apologize. But stop allowing petty emotion to cloud your judgment. Your choices steer the fates of more than just yourself.

YES. PLEASE.

Celica: You're right. I can offer no rebuttal.

And I also don't think you ever put this advice into practical use.

 

Please, I still want to like Celica.

But yeah while I like her generally.....honestly she's so poorly written at times, It almost doesn't even seem like it is Celica, if that makes sense.

It's not like Tharja/Faye where the bad writing moments seem in-character, it's so absurdly dumb that you could have a bad plot point where Celica literally was suffering temporary brain-damage somehow (like falling face-down into the bogs later on) and I'd honestly buy it, it's so bad it honestly seems out-of-character completely.

Celica literally was throwing down with Barth and planning ahead to take him on but then later can't tell Jedah is the obviously evil obviously evil (yes, I did mean to say it twice, it's that bloody obvious) person that he is and gets way too mad about Alm going to fight Rigel. 

Hey Celica, you didn't go ahead and get Mila to fight Barth and Later Grieth for you, so why does she judge Alm for it?

She is legitimately so poorly handled, it almost feels like she has split-personality disorder or something, it feels like two different characters.

 

30 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Killing Desaix is a good thing, though. The man is presented as power-hungry and devoid of morals - so no better than Barth or Grieth. And any negotiations would have likely included Desaix remaining in a position of power, which would be intolerable to the Deliverance. And when his original rise to power came from deception, they have no reason to put any faith in his words.

Not to mention he's super evil and is actually the one to tell Slayde to kill Celica and Conrad, he's a clearly very slimy person who's in it for the power.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Samz707

[Acacia Sgt]

16 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Celica literally was throwing down with Barth and planning ahead to take him on but then later can't tell Jedah is the obviously evil obviously evil (yes, I did mean to say it twice, it's that bloody obvious) person that he is and gets way too mad about Alm going to fight Rigel. 

Hey Celica, you didn't go ahead and get Mila to fight Barth and Later Grieth for you, so why does she judge Alm for it?

She is legitimately so poorly handled, it almost feels like she has split-personality disorder or something, it feels like two different characters.

To be fair, when Celica made the decision, she was under emotional duress. She just learnt the gods are going mad, and the one she always looked up had effectively abandoned them and was effectively dead. Then comes Jedah saying he may have a way to restore Duma so at least Valentia may still have a god around. So she accepts. Since at this point, she might not care much that Jedah may have helped engineer the scenario to happen that if one god could be saved, it had to be Duma, so long there was a god to save. Or so.

I'm likely simplifying things and forgetting the full extent on how the situation went down. Well, we'll soon reach that point soon.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Acacia Sgt