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Alastor15243

Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Now Playing: Sacred Stones!

We're at a crossroads!  

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  1. 1. What game should I do next?

    • Tearring Saga
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    • Path of Radiance
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Its because Awakening did a bad and chucked the lore of shadow dragon and mystery of the emblem out the window to an extent. I mean, Tiki is just chilling at the Mila Tree without the slightest concern that the seal on the earth dragons could break because the fire emblem's spheres were broken off. Also, Gotoh and Xane just vanished off the face of the earth apparently, unless I missed something. For a game that's reference extravaganza and a sequal of sorts it's overall quite the missed opportunity.

Edited by Nintenzero

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5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Waaaaaaaaait a goddamned second. I just remembered some info I heard in FE3, and having recently discussed Nowi...

 

...Aren't Marthverse Manaketes supposed to be sterile? How the hell did Nowi have kids? Wasn't there some weird cosmic shift that stripped the dragons of the ability to have children or stay sane in their dragon forms without sealing them? If Manaketes can have kids again, why do they still need dragonstones? Why would one change but not the other? Was the fact they both happened at once in the first place some crazy coincidence?

Based on New Mystery's translation, it reads to me like the sterility is part of the degeneration, so becoming a manakete should prevent / reverse it.

Xane: At first, they couldn't bear children. Then they began to lose their minds, goin' berserk one after the next. ... However, there was one way they could survive: to discard their identities as dragons and live on as humans.

Besides, earlier in this thread it was brought up that the wyvern tribe-Medon connection contradicts that anyway, given that the Medonians supposedly bred their wyverns from degenerated dragons.

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5 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

Based on New Mystery's translation, it reads to me like the sterility is part of the degeneration, so becoming a manakete should prevent / reverse it.

Xane: At first, they couldn't bear children. Then they began to lose their minds, goin' berserk one after the next. ... However, there was one way they could survive: to discard their identities as dragons and live on as humans.

Besides, earlier in this thread it was brought up that the wyvern tribe-Medon connection contradicts that anyway, given that the Medonians supposedly bred their wyverns from degenerated dragons.

Yeah, that was another bit of weirdness. The stuff @Nintenzero brings up does seem to suggest that Awakening has plenty of other canon violation problems though.

 

Binding Blade Day 19: Chapter 14x

Alright! Something tells me I'm getting some promotions today! Milady's pretty much guaranteed, what with the terrain making her really valuable, but hopefully Shin and either Raigh or Clarine too. I think I'll be going with Raigh, simply because his job needs him to have the promo bonuses and the ability to keep leveling more than Clarine's does. Plus he really needs to catch up with his combat partner.

But I really hope I get that third guiding ring soon, because I wanna use Clarine. She was way easier to train than I remember her being. Spamming those non-healing staves really helped. Hopefully Priscilla will be just as easy, especially with barrier staves being buyable at a secret shop.

Speaking of secret shops, apparently this isn't the only pair of boots I get. There's a shop where you can buy them, but it's at the end of the game. Which means that for most of the rest of the game, this pair is what I've got to work with. Better make it count.

I'm gonna give it to Milady. A 9-10 move badass flier sounds absurdly useful, and since this game has rescuing with minimal consequences, Roy really doesn't need to be that mobile in the way Marth did.

Allen and Lance are sitting this one out too. I can't bring too many units, and I've got a lot of guys who could use some training or are on the verge of promotion. Rutger, Lugh and Milady will be fine when it comes to heavy muscle.

Thinking about Rutger and Shin... it's funny how what amounts to a glitch has been one of the only things that've managed to make swordlocked and bowlocked units into high-tier characters. Kinda makes me think the bases for these classes should be much higher than they usually are.

Whoops. Looks like I forgot about bolting. The damage Lot took from that alarmingly accurate hit is probably going to result in him HOLY FUCKING JESUS CHRIST, EVEN BOLTING IS LIGHT!? THE BOSS CAN DOUBLE LOT WITH BOLTING!?

The stats on bolting are absolutely psychotic. The boss has FOURTEEN ATTACK SPEED with it, and ONE HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN HIT.

Lot? Extremely dead. Lesson? Very much learned. Excitement to get hands on bolting? Rising astronomically.

But this pretty decidedly kills any hope of using this chapter to train Lot. ...Fuck it, let's try out Echidna for this chapter. She can use all of Lot's axes (For now; Lot's a few uses away from rank A and then rank S upon promotion), and her attack speed is way higher with a comparable speed growth. I sure as hell can't bring Lot, so might as well.

This is actually a pretty frantic and tense level. The floors are collapsing behind me in what appears to be a pretty consistent pattern, a pattern that doesn't leave you up shit creek without a paddle until the middle platform falls. Rushing my guys to safety across these narrowing platforms is pretty intense, but I'm managing to get it done, especially now that I replaced Lot with Echidna.

Okay, that's funny. I thought the pattern was:

1: Get rid of the one side column.

2: Get rid of the other side column.

3: If there's a middle column behind you, get rid of that. Otherwise, skip.

But no, the two middle columns vanished right after the other. Strangely just as I got my guys off of them. Luck, or is it rigged to make sure your guys don't get stuck?

...Given how the comments about this chapter suggest it's widely despised... I'm gonna have to guess I've just been fortunate enough to get everyone out on time. But I dunno, I'm liking the challenge!

Shin caps his level with a very lame HPsauce level up, but hell, on the bright side, that means we've got a promoter!

Nothing particularly fantastic about these promotion gains, but he can use swords now, and also, his strength was capped before, so this is nice.

Alright, I had to linger a bit to deal with the incoming enemies and the bolting sages, so the way to the central chamber by land has vanished. Thankfully, Milady can help out here.

Another level 20, another HPsauce capping level. BUT IT'S MILADY THIS TIME. I'VE GOT A WYVERN LORD!

Clarine also only got one point for her final unpromoted level up, but this time it was res instead of HP, because of course it was, this is Clarine. Unfortunately, I've only got one guiding ring, and Raigh's about to cap too. And he needs it way, way more, because I can barely keep him useful now. Leaving him locked at level 20 is unthinkable.

...Okay, Milady is now, hands down, my best unit. 50 HP, 22 strength, 21 skill, 18 speed, 10 luck, 21 defense, 6 resistance, 10 con, and 10 move. That is ludicrous. I know someone who's getting Maltet for sure.

This boss is pretty terrifying. I'm gonna have to ferry Rutger over, because even Lugh can't double this fucker.

I will concede that after the initial rush of escaping the collapsing bridge got dealt with, these changing water platforms are a lot less fun. But honestly, I think it was worth it. I had fun with it during the best part of the chapter, at least! Now to get Rutger over here and finish this guy off.

...And Rutger gets an hpsauce level from the boss. What's with all of these terrible level ups at major moments in this chapter!?

Apparently half-dragon, half-human hybrids can detect the auras of other dragons? Either that power doesn't extend to quarter-bloods, or this is another way that FE7 violates FE6 canon. I'm gonna say the former.

Wait a second, Ninian and Nils were half-dragon, but they could still assume a full dragon form, without any talk I can remember about a dragonstone. Can Sophia do that too?

HAHAHAHA! So Fae joins us by sneaking off! Oh she's just as adorable as I remember! And those little balled fists just barely peeking out from the bottom of the screen! Oh my goodness she's just cheek-pinchingly precious!

Well, that's the end of the chapter. I now have three legendary weapons, two of which I can use. As for my thoughts on the chapter? Honestly... not bad! The end was kind of lame, but I really liked the beginning! If they kept up the pressure and made it some kind of spiraling race to the end while pirates continuously chased me, that would probably have been even better, but really, as long as you have even one flier with you, the slow part of this map isn't that bad.

Next level, well... apparently we're rescuing Fae, and also in the process we'll be recruiting Perceval! Can't wait!

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2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, that was another bit of weirdness. The stuff @Nintenzero brings up does seem to suggest that Awakening has plenty of other canon violation problems though.

Yeah, I was ignoring that because it pissed me off. There are feasible explanations for those things, and it's not a canon "violation" unless there's no feasible explanation.

Examples:

Gotoh was super old, so he died in the 2000 years since Mystery.

Xane hated humans (mostly), so he went off in search of some privacy.

Grima ate the sealed Earth Dragons during his first rise (he's made from Divine Dragon; it's potentially within his capabilities). Also explains why the Fire Emblem could be re-purposed for the Awakening ritual.

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5 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

Yeah, I was ignoring that because it pissed me off. There are feasible explanations for those things, and it's not a canon "violation" unless there's no feasible explanation.

Examples:

Gotoh was super old, so he died in the 2000 years since Mystery.

Xane hated humans (mostly), so he went off in search of some privacy.

Grima ate the sealed Earth Dragons during his first rise (he's made from Divine Dragon; it's potentially within his capabilities). Also explains why the Fire Emblem could be re-purposed for the Awakening ritual.

I disagree. When you have one story say "The Fire Emblem must never, ever be split up again, or else Tiki will go mad and the earth dragons will rise and doom us all", and then have the sequel story have the Fire Emblem split up apparently as some kind of diplomatic ceremony with multiple countries holding onto a piece each, with no consequences involving Tiki or earth dragons ever happening, it's the duty of the sequel story to explain why the thing that was so important before is no longer true. A failure to do so, as if forgetting it's important in the first place, is something I treat as a canon violation until and unless an explanation arises.

Edited by Alastor15243

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1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

I disagree. When you have one story say "The Fire Emblem must never, ever be split up again, or else Tiki will go mad and the earth dragons will rise and doom us all", and then have the sequel story have the Fire Emblem split up apparently as some kind of diplomatic ceremony with multiple countries holding onto a piece each, with no consequences involving Tiki or Earth dragons ever happening, it's the duty of the sequel story to explain why the thing that was so important before is no longer true. A failure to, as if forgetting it's important in the first place, is something I treat as a canon violation until and unless an explanation arises.

But if it's not relevant to the story of the sequel, an explanation has no business intruding. 2000 years is a long time in which a lot of things can change. The splitting of the Fire Emblem happened 1000 years before Awakening; who's to say they didn't have any earth dragon-related problems during that period? Also, would explicitly spelling out "Tiki sealed more of her power away and takes regular naps to stop her going insane" really make the story better?

...if they ever make the game set during the Schism that a lot of people used to want, there's a lot that needs to be done properly.

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1 minute ago, Seafarer said:

But if it's not relevant to the story of the sequel, an explanation has no business intruding. 2000 years is a long time in which a lot of things can change. The splitting of the Fire Emblem happened 1000 years before Awakening; who's to say they didn't have any earth dragon-related problems during that period? Also, would explicitly spelling out "Tiki sealed more of her power away and takes regular naps to stop her going insane" really make the story better?

...if they ever make the game set during the Schism that a lot of people used to want, there's a lot that needs to be done properly.

If they made a Dragonball sequel set in the distant future, and the dragonballs didn't grant wishes anymore, and instead they did something completely different, like they instead now have a superpower each, and they grant it to anyone who holds them, and nobody in the entire story acted like this is remotely weird or abnormal for them... would you be satisfied if the story ended without this being explained in any way?

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1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

If they made a Dragonball sequel set in the distant future, and the dragonballs didn't grant wishes anymore, and instead they did something completely different, like they instead now have a superpower each, and they grant it to anyone who holds them, and nobody in the entire story acted like this is remotely weird or abnormal for them... would you be satisfied if the story ended without this being explained in any way?

Depends. Is the change relevant to to story at hand?

(Maybe someone gathered the Dragonballs and wished for them to do different things. If it's relevant to the story being told, the circumstances of that should probably come up.)

"nobody in the entire story acted like this is remotely weird or abnormal for them" - this is kind of how things work. If something's been one way for a thousand years, nobody is going to comment on how that way is weird, even if it wasn't like that two thousand years ago. The writers of Awakening didn't want to tell the story of earth dragons rising or Tiki going insane, so they left a 2000-year gap for things to change and then become normal. And I don't see how that's a canon violation.

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5 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

Depends. Is the change relevant to to story at hand?

(Maybe someone gathered the Dragonballs and wished for them to do different things. If it's relevant to the story being told, the circumstances of that should probably come up.)

"nobody in the entire story acted like this is remotely weird or abnormal for them" - this is kind of how things work. If something's been one way for a thousand years, nobody is going to comment on how that way is weird, even if it wasn't like that two thousand years ago. The writers of Awakening didn't want to tell the story of earth dragons rising or Tiki going insane, so they left a 2000-year gap for things to change and then become normal. And I don't see how that's a canon violation.

I don't understand this viewpoint at all. Just because it's physically possible for an explanation for something bizarre or significantly contradictory to exist doesn't mean it's remotely acceptable form to make said changes on the fly and then leave it to the fans to play the guessing game as to what that explanation is.

The writing of Awakening is entirely consistent with someone who either didn't know or didn't care what the Fire Emblem originally did. I don't think a single one of the powers the Ylissean Fire Emblem has overlaps with a single one of the powers the original one had. These are major, major changes to be made to the lore, and explaining them would not remotely derail the story. It would take one cutscene at most if the explanation you gave is the correct one. They have no excuse not to take the time.

Edited by Alastor15243

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Gotoh was old as hell thousands of years before Awakening. I think it's safe to assume that he died of old age. Bantu may be still around according to nowi, but he should be decrepit. Xane is the one i can't justify other than the gameplay reason that he would be broken in awakening. 

As for the earth dragons, Grima clearly pulled an eviler that thou on them. They are not just the main threat anymore. Maybe they were killed/absorbed, or they are just too weak to oppose Grima. It's pretty clear that the Grimleal hijacked anything villanous that was around(case in point, Aversa casually summoning the Loptyr dreadlords). And even if Tiki went mad in the past, we are discussing 1000 years ago, it's obvious that no one really know or care about that. Even if she did she wouldn't remember and there is no one else that can tell us that she did.

And how much we do know about dragon sterility? Maybe they can not make babies whit each other but they can with humans? I am quite sure that manakete never tries to make children whit humans in Arkaneia. 

Edited by Flere210

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22 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

I don't understand this viewpoint at all. Just because it's physically possible for an explanation for something bizarre or significantly contradictory to exist doesn't mean it's remotely acceptable form to make said changes on the fly and then leave it to the fans to play the guessing game as to what that explanation is.

The writing of Awakening is entirely consistent with someone who either didn't know or didn't care what the Fire Emblem originally did. I don't think a single one of the powers the Ylissean Fire Emblem has overlaps with a single one of the powers the original one had. These are major, major changes to be made to the lore, and explaining them would not remotely derail the story. It would take one cutscene at most if the explanation you gave is the correct one. They have no excuse not to take the time.

Can I ask you: would Tiki take the time to, unprompted, say "the Fire Emblem used to seal away a bunch of evil dragons and also help keep me sane while it had all the gemstones on it but then during the last war all that changed for the following reasons:"? Because she's the only character in the game who would have any of that knowledge, so nobody else could ask her about it or bring it up themselves.

In other words, the only option they had to impart this information was to turn Tiki into an infodump bot, which I seem to remember you criticising Mystery of the Emblem for doing. You might argue that they could have brought in another character who could bring this information in, but then you're asking the developers to spend time on something that really doesn't affect the story.

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1 minute ago, Seafarer said:

Can I ask you: would Tiki take the time to, unprompted, say "the Fire Emblem used to seal away a bunch of evil dragons and also help keep me sane while it had all the gemstones on it but then during the last war all that changed for the following reasons:"? Because she's the only character in the game who would have any of that knowledge, so nobody else could ask her about it or bring it up themselves.

In other words, the only option they had to impart this information was to turn Tiki into an infodump bot, which I seem to remember you criticising Mystery of the Emblem for doing. You might argue that they could have brought in another character who could bring this information in, but then you're asking the developers to spend time on something that really doesn't affect the story.

If it was genuinely important to the story that the powers of the Fire Emblem change so radically, and it was, because if it weren't acceptable to split up the Fire Emblem then we wouldn't be on a big cross-country treasure hunt treating the Fire Emblem spheres like dragonballs we need to collect before the bad guys do, then a simple explanation of why the Fire Emblem needed to be split up in the first place would be the perfect opportunity to explain why it no longer does what it used to. And the topic of the spheres being split up is something Tiki brings up shortly after waking up if I remember correctly.

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It's only important in a meta sense, for us players. Chrom and his gang would not even know about the power of the spheres beyond what is told in legends. 

While having no explaination is bad, having an infodump whit no in story purpose other than give information to the player would be equally bad. 

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7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

If it was genuinely important to the story that the powers of the Fire Emblem change so radically, and it was, because if it weren't acceptable to split up the Fire Emblem then we wouldn't be on a big cross-country treasure hunt treating the Fire Emblem spheres like dragonballs we need to collect before the bad guys do, then a simple explanation of why the Fire Emblem needed to be split up in the first place would be the perfect opportunity to explain why it no longer does what it used to. And the topic of the spheres being split up is something Tiki brings up shortly after waking up if I remember correctly.

Fairly sure the answer to this was: they didn't need to be. They just were because who cares. And I still don't see why Tiki would possibly bring up what it used to do, because what it used to do isn't relevant to what needs to be done with it now.

Obviously, if it was still needed to keep the earth dragons and/or Tiki in check, she would have explained that. But it isn't, so why would she bring it up?

EDIT: oh, and there are hints towards the explanations I've put forward, especially the one about Tiki. Three Houses is praised for leaving some things for the player to piece together from clues; why doesn't Awakening get the same allowance? (Answer: because the people likely to care about lore don't like Awakening.)

Edited by Seafarer

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Just now, Flere210 said:

It's only important in a meta sense, for us players. Chrom and his gang would not even know about the power of the spheres beyond what is told in legends. 

While having no explaination is bad, having an infodump whit no in story purpose other than give information to the player would be equally bad. 

If changing it without explaining it would be bad, and if changing it and wasting time explaining it would also be bad, then the conclusion is that changing it was a bad idea, which was my original argument. The Fire Emblem has gone, without explanation, from a macguffin that has to be kept together at all costs because it's the only thing keeping dragons sane, to a macguffin that does various ill-defined but very powerful things and which was thus deliberately split apart among the nations to keep anyone from misusing it.

The Fire Emblem went from an artifact that needs to be kept intact for the sake of the planet, to an artifact that has to be kept apart for the sake of the planet except in emergencies. It is literally the exact opposite of what it used to be.

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Oh, that's right, it's kept apart to make it harder to revive Grima.

I think what it's used for is being confused with what its powers are here. It was originally used to complete the seal on the earth dragons, so as long as it's whole, the seal is complete. The rituals used in Awakening tap into its power and use it for other purposes (reviving Grima, summoning Naga's spirit). I don't see a contradiction there.

I don't agree that it was a bad idea to use the existing item of power on the continent as the MacGuffin for Awakening, for the record.

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4 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

I think what it's used for is being confused with what its powers are here. It was originally used to complete the seal on the earth dragons, so as long as it's whole, the seal is complete. The rituals used in Awakening tap into its power and use it for other purposes (reviving Grima, summoning Naga's spirit). I don't see a contradiction there.

Okay, you've been talking a lot about what you think isn't a violation of canon, and your definition is so strict that I'm not even sure anymore what you think would be a violation. Could you explain what you think a violation of canon would be?

Edited by Alastor15243

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3 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Okay, you've been talking a lot about what you think a violation of canon is, and your definition is so strict that I'm not even sure anymore what you think would be a violation. Could you explain what you think a violation of canon would be?

In a vacuum, I probably wouldn't use it of a published work at all. Awakening is canon, because it's a published work. The better term would probably be "retcon".

As I've been using it, it'd be a change to established facts with no reasonable in-universe explanation, or where all reasonable in-universe explanations are equally likely with no evidence supporting one over another. For an extreme example, a change where the best possible explanation is "and the aliens came down and did magic then went away again", in a universe where said aliens aren't referenced or even hinted at in either the original work or the changed sequel, is a violation of canon in this sense. Closer to home, if The Binding Blade established that Eliwood and Hector were brothers, then Blazing Blade came out as it is, with them clearly being not brothers, that would also fit.

The reasons I consider the explanations I proposed reasonable are as follows:

Tiki
She's established in Awakening as sleeping a lot. This fits with Akaneia, where she was put to sleep for a thousand years or so. I think Gotoh implies that this is why she didn't degenerate during that time even after the Binding Shield was broken? Additionally, before you can recruit her, she performs a ritual to draw in power in the Divine Dragon Grounds - that's her paralogue. The conclusion I draw from these things is that she doesn't keep all her power in her mortal body, and that she sleeps a lot, which combined allow her to resist degeneration without the Binding Shield being whole.

Earth dragons
The Dragon's Table, where Grima feeds on souls, is clearly meant to be the same place as the Dragon's Altar, where the earth dragons were sealed. That combined with the fact that earth dragons aren't rampaging over Ylisse leads to the obvious implication that Grima consumed them at some point. (There's also the alternative explanation that the Binding Shield has never been broken for long enough for the seal to completely erode in the 2000 years since Marth. I don't like that one as much, but you might prefer it.)

Each of these would fall under my definition of a canon violation if these pieces of evidence were not present.

You may disagree that these are reasonable conclusions, but at that point we just have to accept that our opinions differ and leave it at that.

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5 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

In a vacuum, I probably wouldn't use it of a published work at all. Awakening is canon, because it's a published work. The better term would probably be "retcon".

As I've been using it, it'd be a change to established facts with no reasonable in-universe explanation, or where all reasonable in-universe explanations are equally likely with no evidence supporting one over another.

Honestly, I'd argue that's exactly describes this situation, but we've been going on about this for a while, so we're gonna have to cut this off here.

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

This is actually a pretty frantic and tense level. The floors are collapsing behind me in what appears to be a pretty consistent pattern, a pattern that doesn't leave you up shit creek without a paddle until the middle platform falls. Rushing my guys to safety across these narrowing platforms is pretty intense, but I'm managing to get it done, especially now that I replaced Lot with Echidna.

You now what happens if you're playing blind as to when the floor disappears and choose to start slow to erode Boltings and draw out some enemies? You get stuck, in the starting zone, one or three characters unable to move b/c they trapped in the water. So you wait, and wait, and waiiiiiiiit until at last, the floor comes back, all of it.

This is what happened to me. I forget if I brought Melady my only good flier or not, and I probably should've reset rather than wait for the floors to come back. But I didn't, and thus I came to dislike this chapter. It being one linear approach to the boss, as opposed the funky and somewhat confusing set of unsinking islands and ephmeral bridges in Night of Farewells, makes this map in one perspective worse. 

 

9 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

If it was genuinely important to the story that the powers of the Fire Emblem change so radically

Did it though? Or does IS simply not remember what just holding each Gemstone separately does? Imagine you had a ruler who was very versed in magic...:

  • Servant: "Queen Sigil, the battle against King Diesoon has begun, but we're losing."
  • Queen Sigil: "Never fear my countryman! For look at what I hold, the almighty Emblem imbued with its five precious Gemstones!"
  • Servant: "But Queen Sigil, our troops are overwhelmed, 5 to 1!"
  • Queen Sigil: "Not for long! Sphere of Nature's Might, open the maws of the earth beneath the enemy's hordes!"
  • Servant: "...I'm in awe Your Majesty, but I'm afraid our soldiers were wounded just the same, they can't vanquish the remainder."
  • Queen Sigil: "So they lay down their lives for me, so it is my duty to raise them up. Pearlescent Orb, from you, pour the vital essence into my protectors!"
  • Servant: "Not an injury remains so far as I can see!?! But I see arrows, bolts from ballistae, destructive siege spells too, they're ruin your forces anew!"
  • Queen Sigil: "Sable shades, let not a stray projectile land near my men and women!"
  • Servant: "How the shadows in instants I could not see, sent every shot to the sea, and every archer to their knees. Now, the armies before us hold their ground, in mountains rough and forests thick, our offensive will be against the slick."
  • Queen Sigil: "Nothing can remain hidden from the Light, its aurora shall guide the brave through thickest night in the deepest valley as though they raced across the midday plains."
  • Servant: "I do not doubt it My Queen that you have an answer for what comes next. The enemy is met, the enemy is reduced, but their valiance to the very end is match by considerable talent, inevitable victory will come with heavy casualties."
  • Queen Sigil: "Innumerable are the stars above, for all who fight in my name, immeasurable will be your strength!"
  • Servant: "Blessed be the Kingdom of the Emblem! Rightful Sovereign of this World, the enemy is routed. King Diesoon is attempting to flee, are we to give chase?"
  • Queen Sigil: "Oh Fire Emblem! Bind the lost king where he stands! His crown shall adorn the head of your extoller!"

 

...This is what I wish was the canon reasoning for why the Binding Shield was split again. 

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You now what happens if you're playing blind as to when the floor disappears and choose to start slow to erode Boltings and draw out some enemies? You get stuck, in the starting zone, one or three characters unable to move b/c they trapped in the water. So you wait, and wait, and waiiiiiiiit until at last, the floor comes back, all of it.

Funny, the thought of that happening never even occurred to me. I didn't once think of waiting out the bolting charges from there. I just noticed that the bolting sages didn't move, realized that meant there were blind spots, and ferried all of my units across the platforms, not stopping on any of the couple of endangered spots, until they were safely past that first section. Lalum helped a lot.

If that's just my personal experience, and usually the map plays out a lot more like your version, I can get why people would hate it.

Edited by Alastor15243

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3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I disagree. When you have one story say "The Fire Emblem must never, ever be split up again, or else Tiki will go mad and the earth dragons will rise and doom us all", and then have the sequel story have the Fire Emblem split up apparently as some kind of diplomatic ceremony with multiple countries holding onto a piece each, with no consequences involving Tiki or earth dragons ever happening, it's the duty of the sequel story to explain why the thing that was so important before is no longer true. A failure to do so, as if forgetting it's important in the first place, is something I treat as a canon violation until and unless an explanation arises.

All right I will try my best to fix these plot holes with some cannon spackle.

Gotoh - New Mystery lore states Naga lived about 5000 years, if Gotoh's lifespan is close to Naga's he probably died of old age in the 2000 years between games.

Xane - He makes it perfectly clear he hates humanity and generally stay out of such things, he just likes Marth enough to make an exception...

Orbs - I suspect they aren't used by individuals so that they can be better harvested for more magic tomes. New Mystery makes it clear that magic tomes are made using the orbs. If the Orbs are being prioritized for the production of magic it would explain why having the orbs separated might help maintain peace, and why they aren't used by individuals. Awakening having 4 overarching types of magic (technically there is a 5th that only contains the Genealogy of the Holy war reference of the Book of Naga...) and with Tiki monopolizing one of the orbs, the near extinction of this 5th type of magic adds some additional circumstantial evidence to this theory.

Tiki's degeneration - They imply multiple times in New Mystery (or at least on both the good and bad endings) that part of what makes Tiki vulnerable despite being a Manakete is being a child. She has reached adulthood by the time of Awakening, and is presumably no longer needs the Binding Shield to maintain her sanity and can do what all the other Manaketes do.

Earth Dragons - I'm just going to use Seafarer's explanation as I find it the most likely

2 hours ago, Seafarer said:


The Dragon's Table, where Grima feeds on souls, is clearly meant to be the same place as the Dragon's Altar, where the earth dragons were sealed. That combined with the fact that earth dragons aren't rampaging over Ylisse leads to the obvious implication that Grima consumed them at some point. (There's also the alternative explanation that the Binding Shield has never been broken for long enough for the seal to completely erode in the 2000 years since Marth. I don't like that one as much, but you might prefer it.)

 

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4 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Gotoh - New Mystery lore states Naga lived about 5000 years, if Gotoh's lifespan is close to Naga's he probably died of old age in the 2000 years between games.

Wait, dragons only live 5000 years?

Yeah, I know, "only" is a bit rich, but lemme put it this way: Nowi is more than a fifth of the way towards death, and she's either barely hit puberty or hasn't hit it at all. Why the fuck is more than 20% of their lifespan spent in prepubescence?

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1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Wait, dragons only live 5000 years?

Yeah, I know, "only" is a bit rich, but lemme put it this way: Nowi is more than a fifth of the way towards death, and she's either barely hit puberty or hasn't hit it at all. Why the fuck is more than 20% of their lifespan spent in prepubescence?

That is how long Naga lived, and this is still a pre-modern society. If she died around the human equivalent of 65 (a rough number for the life expectancy of a noble that reached adulthood in late medieval Europe), that would put Nowi around the human equivalent of 13, and if she died younger...

 

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I was reading up this thread; and I couldn't help but find fascinating the current conversation. If allowed, I'd like to weight in.

12 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Wait, dragons only live 5000 years?

Yeah, I know, "only" is a bit rich, but lemme put it this way: Nowi is more than a fifth of the way towards death, and she's either barely hit puberty or hasn't hit it at all. Why the fuck is more than 20% of their lifespan spent in prepubescence?

Not quite. It's stated Naga was around five thousand when she died. Thing is, there's an implication it was a premature death.

Also, don't put much weight on a Manakete's human appearance. The Miracle of Darna happened around fifty years before Naga died, yet she still had the appearance of a "young maiden" when she went to Jugdral. So either the young maiden form was just an illusion, they can change their human appearance as they see fit (so Gotoh and Bantu looking old doesn't mean they are old), they age like saiyajins (stay in their prime for most of their adult life), or the premature death is a thing and five thousand years is still "young adult" in Manakete terms.

By the way, since Nowi can have a child in the span of ten to fifteen years, she's not prepubescence. At the least, she's just almost at.

19 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Orbs - I suspect they aren't used by individuals so that they can be better harvested for more magic tomes. New Mystery makes it clear that magic tomes are made using the orbs. If the Orbs are being prioritized for the production of magic it would explain why having the orbs separated might help maintain peace, and why they aren't used by individuals. Awakening having 4 overarching types of magic (technically there is a 5th that only contains the Genealogy of the Holy war reference of the Book of Naga...) and with Tiki monopolizing one of the orbs, the near extinction of this 5th type of magic adds some additional circumstantial evidence to this theory.

While you can make tomes with the power of the orbs, like Imhullu or Starlight, it's not a general rule. None of the orbs were being used as such in Marth's time, since three were at the Fane of Raman for centuries, the Life Orb was in the hands of Aurelis' King, and Gharnef kept the Dark Orb for himself. Not exactly spread out.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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