Petition to claim parity between homosexual options in FE:TH

[Armchair General]

From a production standpoint, it kind of makes sense to exclude equality; because let's face it, a lot of people are set up to die if you don't want to spare or recruit them. Plus, there's the issue of writing them in a way that doesn't feel forced.

But in the end, IS has a game to finish and brainstorming on making someone else be gay kind of eats up some time that would be better spent on something else. Maybe someone will hack the game to rewrite the script?

 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Armchair General

[Slumber]

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

It really depends on how its done. 

I've always believed you should never write gay characters but only characters who just happen to be gay. First give them established personalities and bonds to other characters and only later decide which gender they sleep with. So it can be said I find a character's sexual interest fairly low on my priorities. That said retroactively making a character gay that wasn't written to be one isn't exactly an ideal way to write gay characters either. 

They could expand romance options for male Bayleth to include something like Caspar who has a paired ending about ''settling down'' with Linhardt. That wouldn't retroactively change anything about Caspar and increase the support options for male Byleth. Or they can include more gay characters in the new routes they got planned as DLC.

Yeah. BioWare games are responsible for giving me a knee-jerk reaction to these kinds of petitions. Most notably Hawke deciding to pursue a romance with Anders in DA2 out of nowhere if you're simply nice enough to him. Being too sloppy with handling gay romance is also a bad solution to the problem, and I'm too cynical to assume developers would be able to tackle the situation appropriately if it feels shoehorned in.

But I agree that adding in options that seem to already be there, but don't exist for whatever reason would be nice. Linhardt is great, but there should definitely be more than just him for male gay characters. Caspar would be one. He seems like he'd be happy with anyone who he can wrestle with. Claude's constant flirtation with the male Byleth also makes him feel like a no-brainer.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Slumber

[Kagetura]

Would be nice to not have sexuality be forced in as  the main character trait. It's a reality that heterosexuality is a norm and it's only logical that its represented that way, why shoehorn in something for the sake of it just being there, like someone else mentioned earlier if it's going to be included it should be really well written and important to the character beyond that it's just fan service which not everyone is a fan of. It's still just video games afterall, it's up to designer discretion.

[Bleh]

1 hour ago, Tsak said:

I mean, i get the whole representation thing, but would you really want them to shoehorn character designs into being gay just for the sake of it?

Why not? People "shoehorn" characters into being straight all the time. Bowser  initially captured princess peach because she was the only one who could break his spell on the mushroom kingdom, his romantic interest came later. Lady Marian was added to the robin hood stories because people found the merry men... too merry. There are many adaptations of Sherlock Holmes that turn Sherlock or Watson into a woman and they almost always end with romance. That is all from the top of my head, many other exemples exist, so why is it so bad to make a character gay?

 

1 hour ago, Tsak said:

 equality or not, video games are a medium. And it's up to the artists, game designers and character designers to make characters how they want.

But they don't always get to make them how they want. Yosuke from persona 4 was supposed to confess to the male protagonist, but the director changed it because he wasn't comfortable with homosexuality. The Voltron: Legendary Defenders team talked a lot about how much Dreamworks made it difficult to add lgbt content. The Young Justice team talked about how, when they brought up the subject of lgbt characters to the executives, without mentioning any specific plans, they got a blanket no. Making an lgbt character is hard if you don't have name recognition because the media industry isn't always very receptive.

 

1 hour ago, Tsak said:

And it's up to the artists, game designers and character designers to make characters how they want. Just because you want more gay pairings doesn't mean demanding them will get you anywhere.

You're right that it doesn't mean it'll get anywhere, but staying silent about our wants will have even less chance to get to a positive outcome.

 

1 hour ago, Tsak said:

 The game designers don't really care about equality, they make stuff that appeals to an audience for sure, but it's still very much their canvas. Demanding they use a different paintbrush isn't going to make a better product. That's not how creativity works

Again, the game designers don't always get to do what they want. But also, putting limits and conditions on creative pursuit can sometimes foster creativity and, yes, make a better product. George Lucas had some constraints in the first Star Wars trilogy, and when his name recognition got him more creative control, he gave us things like the midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks.

[Kagetura]

11 minutes ago, Bleh said:

 

But they don't always get to make them how they want. Yosuke from persona 4 was supposed to confess to the male protagonist, but the director changed it because he wasn't comfortable with homosexuality. 

You dont see the inherit problem with that? Yosuke, you mean the character whose entire story about being inlove with and chasing a female who wanted little to do with him would just be flipped around and turned gay because? And that's not even considering the fact that that was probably only an english dub decision, he wasnt meant to be that way originally and conceptions like that ruin the basic image of a bromance, nowadays 2 guys cant even get along really well together without being shipped as gay.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Kagetura

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, Kagetura said:

You dont see the inherit problem with that? Yosuke, you mean the character whose entire story about being inlove with and chasing a female who wanted little to do with him would just be flipped around and turned gay because? And that's not even considering the fact that that was probably only an english dub decision, he wasnt meant to be that way originally and conceptions like that ruin the basic imagine of a bromance, nowadays 2 guys cant even get along really well together without being shipped as gay.

People are bisexual, you know. Someone can be absolutely enamored with both genders and spend all their time chasing both. That's how it is. 

[Kagetura]

7 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

People are bisexual, you know. Someone can be absolutely enamored with both genders and spend all their time chasing both. That's how it is. 

Fair enough point but even saying that is speculating away from a norm. At the end of the day it just looks like an agenda, if they want that to be the case then I just hope it enhances the character rather than make them a trope.

[Flere210]

3 hours ago, Yukiizura said:

You say every character being bi would be "downright stupid" but...why though? Because it "wouldn't be realistic"? That's my point, if "realism" is a concern for someone regarding a game with magic and dragons, and where everyone of the opposite sex wants to get with the Avatar, how is every character being a bi option extreme? 

Imo it does not makes sense whitin the context of Fodlan. Looking at the lore it's clear that the nobles makes a gigantic deal about crest inheritance. As crest can only be inherited by blood and not by adopted children, it would be weird for the Fodlan nobility to NOT be aggresively heteronormative. It's just not the kind of society that would accept homosexuality imo. And you can't really change how the crest works to be more inclusive whitout also changing Edelgard character a lot. Wich would have a domino effect on the entire plot. 

Magic and dragon can make sense in a fantasy setting, everyone being bisexual can make sense in a fantasy setting. But not in a fantasy setting where people need to have children because of plot magic.

 

 

[Armchair General]

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Imo it does not makes sense whitin the context of Fodlan. Looking at the lore it's clear that the nobles makes a gigantic deal about crest inheritance. As crest can only be inherited by blood and not by adopted children, it would be weird for the Fodlan nobility to NOT be aggresively heteronormative. It's just not the kind of society that would accept homosexuality imo. And you can't really change how the crest works to be more inclusive whitout also changing Edelgard character a lot. Wich would have a domino effect on the entire plot. 

Magic and dragon can make sense in a fantasy setting, everyone being bisexual can make sense in a fantasy setting. But not in a fantasy setting where people need to have children because of plot magic.

 

 

In all fairness, you can get a Crest via surgery, but the results aren't that great...As in being the reason why Edelgard hates them.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Armchair General

[0 Def Cleric]

3 minutes ago, Kagetura said:

Fair enough point but even saying that is speculating away from a norm. At the end of the day it just looks like an agenda, if they want that to be the case then I just hope it enhances the character rather than make them a trope.

Isn't it the opposite of an agenda, considering they took this out of the character due to an agenda? (It was planned by the Japanese writing team, as well.) 

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Imo it does not makes sense whitin the context of Fodlan. Looking at the lore it's clear that the nobles makes a gigantic deal about crest inheritance. As crest can only be inherited by blood and not by adopted children, it would be weird for the Fodlan nobility to NOT be aggresively heteronormative. It's just not the kind of society that would accept homosexuality imo. And you can't really change how the crest works to be more inclusive whitout also changing Edelgard character a lot. Wich would have a domino effect on the entire plot. 

Magic and dragon can make sense in a fantasy setting, everyone being bisexual can make sense in a fantasy setting. But not in a fantasy setting where people need to have children because of plot magic.

Surrogate parents are fun and funky, my pal. King James did it, there's no reason why there can't be officially adopted bastards in Fodlan as well. Actually... there's a whole plot point about nobles taking many consorts for the sole purpose of bearing a crest... so this wouldn't be an issue, you know? 

[Kagetura]

7 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Isn't it the opposite of an agenda, considering they took this out of the character due to an agenda? (It was planned by the Japanese writing team, as well.) 

It's all perspective really, personally I wouldn't like the idea of inventing a toaster and then someone comes around and tries to rebrand my product as a sock dryer or something, my perspective on it is at the end of the day the original design of the character probably isnt intended to be that by the Japanese dev's, english dubs tend to want to take liberties that isnt necessarily there's. If he was 100% made for bisexual intentions then sure, other than that make a new character for that rather than shoehorn it in on an existing one.

Edit: just noticed the part about it being planned by the japanese devs as well. My thoughts towards that is at the end of the day is they decided against it so respect that. It just wasnt apart of his final design. But dont remember anything being said on it being intended for the Japanese, my gf read this and wants to check it, any memory of where it was mentioned? Because shes wondering why they didnt go with that on 4 golden.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Kagetura

[xchickengirlx]

I do think the ship has sailed for any backlash against the lack of M/M choices at this point. Prior to the games release, there sure was a lot of outrage when folks starting spoiling themselves by discovering what the W/W and M/M choices were.  Now that the game has released...silence.

Now I'd argue there is more of a dismissive attitude towards the lgbt community who are disappointed by all of this, which is unfortunate, but not surprising. The game has been a huge success and is still in its honeymoon stage in terms of the fanbase's adoration for it. So just as with some of the comments in this thread, when lgbt folks try to bring this issue up again they are criticized for being whiners or having an "agenda" for wanting more choices which is hilarious.

I'm still pretty bitter about it, but I'm trying to make the best of it and just enjoy the game. I'm still on my pre-time skip GD run as M!Byleth and have recruited Linhardt with the intention of S supporting him...but I mean, he's just OK. I'm hoping I'll like him more once the timeskip happens and I get his A and S supports. I was worried he was going to be super 1 dimensional and everything about his personality would be about wanting to nap all the time, but luckily that isn't the case with him.

Yet at the same time, since his Support chain is exactly the same as for F!Byleth, I don't think I'll be able to say I got the "gay" experience in romancing Linhardt as M!Byleth? I'm sure there is a very small percentage of players who would ever S support him as F!Byleth though, but still. He just doesn't feel genuine at all in terms of "truly" being a bi character? He really feels like  a half-hearted choice by IS honestly. I guess because his feminine character design? That's all I can think of for why. His personality and everything, he might as well be straight. Or even asexual. I have to wonder if any of his A supports or paired endings with the female students come off as romantic.

I think they could have easily made all the Lords bi choices, with how emotionally attached they are to Byleth and everything. Also, and again, I'm still in pre-time skip mode, but so far with Claude, when he talks to Byelth his dialogue isn't really gender-specific at all? so I think they could have easily made him be a S support for M!Byleth. I'm sure many who have played the BL route would say the same about Dimitri.

if IS really wanted to give the players more M/M choices or even more W/W choices, this SHOULD have been the game to do it with. But they didn't, and I don't see that changing in the next mainline Fire Emblem game tbh.

Edited August 10, 2019 by xchickengirlx

[Flere210]

5 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Surrogate parents are fun and funky, my pal. King James did it, there's no reason why there can't be officially adopted bastards in Fodlan as well. Actually... there's a whole plot point about nobles taking many consorts for the sole purpose of bearing a crest... so this wouldn't be an issue, you know? 

I still doubt fodlan sociey would accept it, unless the noble marry the surrogate mother in order to keep up apparences. I can't really talk for them, but i think most gay players won't be happy with such an arrangement.

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, Kagetura said:

It's all perspective really, personally I wouldn't like the idea of inventing a toaster and then someone comes around and tries to rebrand my product as a sock dryer or something, my perspective on it is at the end of the day the original design of the character probably isnt intended to be that by the Japanese dev's, english dubs tend to want to take liberties that isnt necessarily there's. If he was 100% made for bisexual intentions then sure, other than that make a new character for that rather than shoehorn it in on an existing one.

....I just explained that the Japanese writing team were the ones for the original plan of the character as bisexual. Essentially, it's creating a toaster that also has a defrost setting, but someone comes in halfway through development and says "we can't have a defrost setting on this, are you guys insane?" and tosses the toaster parts that were responsible for defrosting in the garbage. English translations have, historically, done the opposite and removed LGBT representation. Sailor Moon's infamous "cousins", Path of Radiance adding Elincia/Ike lines that weren't in the original Japanese, all sorts of things. 

3 minutes ago, xchickengirlx said:

I do think the ship has sailed for any backlash against the lack of M/M choices at this point. Prior to the games release, there sure was a lot of outrage when folks starting spoiling themselves by discovering what the W/W and M/M choices were.  Now that the game has released...silence.

People like to talk a big game about boycotting and making their wishes known, but then back down because they think it won't cause change. At least, in my personal experience with these sorts of things. 

[Bleh]

19 minutes ago, Kagetura said:

You dont see the inherit problem with that? Yosuke, you mean the character whose entire story about being inlove with and chasing a female who wanted little to do with him would just be flipped around and turned gay because? And that's not even considering the fact that that was probably only an english dub decision, he wasnt meant to be that way originally and conceptions like that ruin the basic image of a bromance, nowadays 2 guys cant even get along really well together without being shipped as gay.

Eh, after looking a bit, I'm not as sure of the Yosuke exemple than I thought. There is cut content that suggest that he was a supposed romance option, but I found nothing of what I was told, that it was definitively there and was cut because the director was uncomfortable with it. But no, i don't see the problem with Yosuke as a bisexual. The interesting part of Yosuke being a romance option would have been that many gay and bi teens struggle with not being the norm. Yosuke's taunting of Kanji would have been reframed as a way to distance himself from the parts of him he doesn't want to accept, which would have fit very well with the overall theme of the game.

Also,  it's always rather funny for me to see people complaining about how bromances get read as romantic because "why can't to guys just be friends?", when there is almost always an assumption that if a man and a woman have a close relationship, it's romantic unless they're related (and not just in media, but yes very much in media). Like, seriously, talk about a double standard.

[Armchair General]

1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

I still doubt fodlan sociey would accept it, unless the noble marry the surrogate mother in order to keep up apparences. I can't really talk for them, but i think most gay players won't be happy with such an arrangement.

For the record, someone important had a harem, and his name isn't Garon.

[Kagetura]

6 hours ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

....I just explained that the Japanese writing team were the ones for the original plan of the character as bisexual. Essentially, it's creating a toaster that also has a defrost setting, but someone comes in halfway through development and says "we can't have a defrost setting on this, are you guys insane?" and tosses the toaster parts that were responsible for defrosting in the garbage. English translations have, historically, done the opposite and removed LGBT representation. Sailor Moon's infamous "cousins", Path of Radiance adding Elincia/Ike lines that weren't in the original Japanese, all sorts of things. 

Would have to see a source that mentions it was originally intended by the japanese because that part is honestly baffling to me considering their long held views on homosexuality, they have a history of over emphasizing things they have little understanding of in a character like race and sexuality. But providing your correct on then all I can say is oh well missed opportunity.

5 hours ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

"Long held views on homosexuality" ah yes, the ones they've only had since the Meiji Restoration? Those? 
Anyway, Japan has a long history of homosexuality, including among nobility and the samurai class. The west has a far longer history of homophobia, what with the extraordinarily long-held views of the Christian Church dating to the ~800s against it. 

...Actually, the long history of homosexuality among nobility makes it even more foolish to not have many gay male options in Three Houses. Lol. 

Funny thing about that is those things were never boasted in social circles but have always been looked down on when light is shined on them. Plus in context of this game is would really seem problematic for people to be trying to breed for crests when half of the cast wants to run of in a reproductiveless relationship, and implying they commonly used surrogates is suggesting they are far more socially matured than would be believable.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Parrhesia

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, Kagetura said:

Would have to see a source that mentions it was originally intended by the japanese because that part is honestly baffling to me considering their long held views on homosexuality, they have a history of over emphasizing things they have little understanding of in a character to me like race and sexuality. But providing your correct on then all I can say is oh well missed opportunity.

"Long held views on homosexuality" ah yes, the ones they've only had since the Meiji Restoration? Those? 
Anyway, Japan has a long history of homosexuality, including among nobility and the samurai class. The west has a far longer history of homophobia, what with the extraordinarily long-held views of the Christian Church dating to the ~800s against it. 

...Actually, the long history of homosexuality among nobility makes it even more foolish to not have many gay male options in Three Houses. Lol. 

[Kagetura]

11 minutes ago, Bleh said:

Eh, after looking a bit, I'm not as sure of the Yosuke exemple than I thought. There is cut content that suggest that he was a supposed romance option, but I found nothing of what I was told, that it was definitively there and was cut because the director was uncomfortable with it. But no, i don't see the problem with Yosuke as a bisexual. The interesting part of Yosuke being a romance option would have been that many gay and bi teens struggle with not being the norm. Yosuke's taunting of Kanji would have been reframed as a way to distance himself from the parts of him he doesn't want to accept, which would have fit very well with the overall theme of the game.

Also,  it's always rather funny for me to see people complaining about how bromances get read as romantic because "why can't to guys just be friends?", when there is almost always an assumption that if a man and a woman have a close relationship, it's romantic unless they're related (and not just in media, but yes very much in media). Like, seriously, talk about a double standard.

I mean all I can honestly say for that is there is a certain kind of false equivalency to say a guy befriending a girl doesnt have different intentions than a guy befriending a guy on average, I cant say there isn't some bias there like you mentioned but on average they really arent an equal comparison.

[0 Def Cleric]

Just now, Kagetura said:

Funny thing about that is those things were never boasted in social circles but have always been looked down on when light is shined on them. Plus in context of this game is would really seem problematic for people to be trying to breed for crests when half of the cast wants to run of in a reproductive less relationship, and implying surrogates is suggesting they are far more socially matured than would be believable.

Surrogates have been a thing since the 1000s in the west, to start off. And... no? Please do some research on the history of homosexuality in Japan, because these nobles would often be extremely open about their male (for men) or female (for women; often less troublesome than the former, even) consorts.

The social maturation point is moot anyway, considering the fact that there are in fact surrogates in Edelgard's family, with one wife (who did not produce a suitable heir) and a great deal of consorts for her father. If they're there, then it is not unremarkable for them to be elsewhere. And the fact you're assuming that all gay people do not want children simply shines a light on your lack of background knowledge of the subject you're talking about here.

[Kagetura]

5 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Surrogates have been a thing since the 1000s in the west, to start off. And... no? Please do some research on the history of homosexuality in Japan, because these nobles would often be extremely open about their male (for men) or female (for women; often less troublesome than the former, even) consorts.

The social maturation point is moot anyway, considering the fact that there are in fact surrogates in Edelgard's family, with one wife (who did not produce a suitable heir) and a great deal of consorts for her father. If they're there, then it is not unremarkable for them to be elsewhere. And the fact you're assuming that all gay people do not want children simply shines a light on your lack of background knowledge of the subject you're talking about here.

I never implied it didnt exist as much as pointed out the fact that it would feel unnatural for a minority to take up a large portion of the representation of something. Ofcourse surrogates existed but that kind of would decrease your chance on them bearing a crest providing they didnt have something special about them wouldnt it? At this point your just trying to break simple logic to find a work around, it feels unnatural just to make sexual representation a priority.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Kagetura

[Interdimensional Observer]

29 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

Surrogate parents are fun and funky, my pal. King James did it, there's no reason why there can't be officially adopted bastards in Fodlan as well.

And it seems like it was a perfectly acceptable thing in premodern China and Japan for a time. Hideyoshi tried to do I think with one of his generals before Hideyori was born (who then became his heir, but not for long- Ieyasuuuuuuu!). And the famed Kenshin of the Uesugi clan, wasn't actually an Uesugi.

And China's Cao Cao, which gives away that most of my knowledge here comes from Musou games, was the son of a man who was adopted by a eunuch.

[matchalatte]

35 minutes ago, Kagetura said:

@Kagetura Fair enough point but even saying that is speculating away from a norm. At the end of the day it just looks like an agenda, if they want that to be the case then I just hope it enhances the character rather than make them a trope.

LGBTQ population is on the rise, according to Gallop the population is growing rapidly (1% per five years). That is not a small number so of course they will have their agenda.

I am a staunch straight male but being a close minded prude will not help anyone (certainly will not slow down the growth). Mainstream media should reflect this trend for ordinary people to engage in meaningful discussion as well as understanding "their" perspective better.

However, I don't think game developers should pander to LGBTQ at the expense of the consistency of the experience. Instead of forcing half-baked LGBTQ representation in tranditionally themed games, they should adopt entire new approach to themes/characters such that LGBTQ's perspective makes sense. It's a risky endeavor but that's the only way the rest of us can be convinced that such perspective is valuable to their gaming experience.

I laud OP for speaking out and fighting for what he likes (his request is also reasonable).

[0 Def Cleric]

1 minute ago, Kagetura said:

I never implied it didnt exist as much as pointed out the fact that it would feel unnatural for a minority to take up a large portion of the representation of something. Ofcourse surrogates existed but that kind of would decrease your chance on them bearing a crest providing they didnt have something special about them wouldnt it? At this point your just trying to break basic simple logic to find a work around, it feels unnatural just to make sexual representation a priority.

Surrogates do not, generally, decrease the chance of your heir bearing a crest. Even if they did, if that were really such a gigantic issue, Petra, or any of the commoners in the game, would not be allowed to marry characters with Crests, or would at least have such a thing mentioned in their supports. 

And if it doesn't cause a gigantic plot hole in the game, what difference should it make if every single character has the option to be bisexual? If you want, you can solely pair men with women, and do nothing else, and have a completely heterosexual game. On the other hand, if you wanted, you could solely pair men with men and women with women, and have an entirely homosexual game. For something with player choice as such a huge component, and historical precedent for it, it makes very little sense to not include something so simple. 

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

And it seems like it was a perfectly acceptable thing in premodern China and Japan for a time. Hideyoshi tried to do I think with one of his generals before Hideyori was born (who then became his heir, but not for long- Ieyasuuuuuuu!). And the famed Kenshin of the Uesugi clan, wasn't actually an Uesugi.

And China's Cao Cao, which gives away that most of my knowledge here comes from Musou games, was the son of a man who was adopted by a eunuch.

Yep! It's very much been a common thing in both the west and the east. Definitely more accepted in East Asia than in some other parts of the world, though. Pity about the Meiji Restoration bringing all that baggage along with modernization.

[matchalatte]

Quote

@0 Def Cleric @Interdimensional Observer And it seems like it was a perfectly acceptable thing in premodern China and Japan for a time. Hideyoshi tried to do I think with one of his generals before Hideyori was born (who then became his heir, but not for long- Ieyasuuuuuuu!). And the famed Kenshin of the Uesugi clan, wasn't actually an Uesugi.

I am aware of this but I have to point out there is a catch using premodern China and Japan as examples. The kind of homosexuality you mentioned is heavily involved with pedophilia, which is more or less the norm (and legal) during pre-westernization periods. One standard practice was the custom of 'Shutong', that is, talented young boy hired by the literati class (male only class) as apprentices, secretary, and sexual companion. You can even find this in the popular Romance of Three Kingdoms. For example, you will find the legendary strategist Zhugeliang accompanied by such boys (the sexual part is of course not mentioned). As modern day citizens, we cannot advocate such system that exploits children. Exploring this topic requires a lot of mental finesse and sophistication so I will stop here.

On the other hand, you can argue that Christian values and morality still dominates the modern world which shielded many western players from the diversity of sexualities in other cultures and in history. This is very related to FE. Even the design of say Sothis and Flayn is questionable to the western eyes because the thousand-years-old-trapped-in-a-loli-body trope is of course an excuse to legitimize sexualization of underage girls for the perverted eyes to leer (creepy tea time observe). But if you have seen enough anime to hush (or secretly enjoy) about it, there is no reason why LGBTQ representation is such a big transgression.