Petition to claim parity between homosexual options in FE:TH

[TheArchsage]

4 hours ago, De Geso said:

Less than 5 percent of the population in the US is some form of LGBT.

Out of 30-40 people, I would argue that you're pretty unlikely to find a "smattering" of them to be anything but straight. Maybe one or two of them, maybe three, but even then that would be unlikely.

You wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. Guaranteeing that at least x amount of characters are nonstraight is forcing diversity to appease a loud, small group of people.

This is so true. I mean, I'm disappointed that there are basically no black people in the game, but I also don't really care or mind. Meanwhile most of you in here are arguing for 50-100% LGBT characters.

I'm so glad romance means very little in this game as opposed to others in the series. 

[nyainou]

5 hours ago, De Geso said:

Less than 5 percent of the population in the US is some form of LGBT.

Out of 30-40 people, I would argue that you're pretty unlikely to find a "smattering" of them to be anything but straight. Maybe one or two of them, maybe three, but even then that would be unlikely.

You wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. Guaranteeing that at least x amount of characters are nonstraight is forcing diversity to appease a loud, small group of people.

This is so funny. Why do you care so much about statistics in a fantasy game? World-wide, there is a larger amount of Chinese people than American people.. guess we gotta have a ton more Chinese characters in Fire Emblem, otherwise FE won't reflect real-world statistics! If you want FE to just reflect America, then it needs to be way more diverse, especially racially, and especially sexuality-wise.

FE is a fictional fantasy game that, while it draws inspiration from real-world history, does literally anything it wants. As with any fiction, the writers can choose to do anything with it. They continually choose to feature things like incest or pedobait over more positive things like LGBT characters and romances. The issue, in my opinion, is that they can write more LGBT characters, but choose not to. You could literally just flip the pronouns of Claude and Dimitri's Byleth S-support right now and it would still make sense, both plot-wise and character-wise.

Spoiler

"Your hands are so warm.. have they always been?" What heterosexual bro says that to another heterosexual bro, in a time of great emotional vulnerability? And the hand grab at the end of BL.. I guess there's a reason the initials share the letters of another certain popular genre.

 

[timon]

6 minutes ago, nyainou said:

As with any fiction, the writers can choose to do anything with it.

Doesn't that just answer this whole discussion? You can be angry about their choices (I as well am not happy about some things in the game), but ultimately it is their choice.

Edited August 12, 2019 by timon

[virtu333]

Some of it does strike me as odd as to why they didn't add the option.

The Dimitri/F!Byleth supports seem pretty much identical to the male ones, to the point I definitely felt like there were undertones of romance between M!Byleth and Dimitri. So why not just have it as an option at the end?

[nyainou]

15 minutes ago, timon said:

Doesn't that just answer this whole discussion? You can be angry about their choices (I as well am not happy about some things in the game), but ultimately it is their choice.

As I followed this up with in my OP, the issue stems from their unwillingness to include more LGBT characters while they parade around incest and pedobait. 

I would like to clarify that I do enjoy FE outside of character supports and paired endings etc. I agree that there are better games out there with better LGBT romances. But the fact that they just slapped gay men across the face in this entry is disheartening and insulting. I loved Linhardt's paired ending but now, as a same-sex attracted man, what else am I supposed to do? Just not marry anyone anymore, or marry only Linhardt in every playthrough..? In my opinion, and I can't emphasize that enough, I find paired endings way more satisfying than unpaired endings. I think the trope of "and then everyone got married and had kids!!!" really annoying (fuck you Naruto), but I love the supports in this game. It felt really good to get with Linhardt, and I loved Ingrid and Ashe's, and Mercedes' and Annette's paired endings. Of course I want more options for myself and the other characters. It's just straight up satisfying, watching character's relationships develop over the course of the game. Duh, I want some payoff. Like, some actual payoff. I'm sick of continually getting "uhhh no homo bro"d. 

And could I just go play games with more LGBT focus? Yeah. I have, and I do. But FE is a game series I genuinely, wholeheartedly enjoy. Of course I want to feel more included, or rather, not feel like people like me have no place in this universe while dragon lolis do. 

Edit: Also, this isn't some indie, one-man project made from the soul. This is a product. Like, something made specifically to cater to fans, in broad strokes. That means we don't reaaaaally have to respect that it was "their choice" to write FE3H however they wanted. Just some food for thought.

Edited August 12, 2019 by nyainou

[Flere210]

16 minutes ago, nyainou said:

This is so funny. Why do you care so much about statistics in a fantasy game? World-wide, there is a larger amount of Chinese people than American people.. guess we gotta have a ton more Chinese characters in Fire Emblem, otherwise FE won't reflect real-world statistics! If you want FE to just reflect America, then it needs to be way more diverse, especially racially, and especially sexuality-wise.

FE is a fictional fantasy game that, while it draws inspiration from real-world history, does literally anything it wants. As with any fiction, the writers can choose to do anything with it. They continually choose to feature things like incest or pedobait over more positive things like LGBT characters and romances. The issue, in my opinion, is that they can write more LGBT characters, but choose not to. You could literally just flip the pronouns of Claude and Dimitri's Byleth S-support right now and it would still make sense, both plot-wise and character-wise.

  Hide contents

"Your hands are so warm.. have they always been?" What heterosexual bro says that to another heterosexual bro, in a time of great emotional vulnerability? And the hand grab at the end of BL.. I guess there's a reason the initials share the letters of another certain popular genre.

 

Statistics at least are objective and measureble, otherwise everyone has an arbitrary idea of how many x should be in y game. I am also point out that there are hundreds of different demographics. As a work of fiction can't have 800 characters in order to represent everyone, who get to decide that demographic x has to be represented and demographic y not? Statistics seems a fair meter. To me underrepresentation exist when something should be there but is not. Like, Fodlan is based on late medieval, early renaissance Europe, so i am not expecting chinese people in it. I would expect them in Hoshido because chinese people existed in Japan, but not in Fodlan. Unless you want to count that one chinese explorer that visited europe and do a nod to him.

[De Geso]

2 hours ago, TheArchsage said:

This is so true. I mean, I'm disappointed that there are basically no black people in the game, but I also don't really care or mind. Meanwhile most of you in here are arguing for 50-100% LGBT characters.

I'm so glad romance means very little in this game as opposed to others in the series. 

Right. If the game were set in modern America, I would be surprised at the abundance of Europeans, but given the setting for Fire Emblem is what it is, the proportion is not surprising (though I could see how a black person would be bummed about it).

46 minutes ago, nyainou said:

This is so funny. Why do you care so much about statistics in a fantasy game? World-wide, there is a larger amount of Chinese people than American people.. guess we gotta have a ton more Chinese characters in Fire Emblem, otherwise FE won't reflect real-world statistics! If you want FE to just reflect America, then it needs to be way more diverse, especially racially, and especially sexuality-wise.

FE is a fictional fantasy game that, while it draws inspiration from real-world history, does literally anything it wants. As with any fiction, the writers can choose to do anything with it. They continually choose to feature things like incest or pedobait over more positive things like LGBT characters and romances. The issue, in my opinion, is that they can write more LGBT characters, but choose not to. You could literally just flip the pronouns of Claude and Dimitri's Byleth S-support right now and it would still make sense, both plot-wise and character-wise.

  Reveal hidden contents

"Your hands are so warm.. have they always been?" What heterosexual bro says that to another heterosexual bro, in a time of great emotional vulnerability? And the hand grab at the end of BL.. I guess there's a reason the initials share the letters of another certain popular genre.

 

If you'd prefer, I could try to come up with an estimate of the number of openly nonstraight people in the setting on which Fire Emblem is based, but I promise that number is going to make Linhardt look like over-representation. But you missed my point - there are very few nonstraight people, and there have always been very few. You are continuously demanding representation when the representation is there.

Just because Fire Emblem is fictional and fantasy doesn't mean you can throw all verisimilitude out the window for the sake of making a handful of people a little happier with the story. Your comments about wanting "positive things" is a little silly - first because you assume that adding nonstraight characters and romances is inherently positive, even if adding those characters in amounts greater than that which exists in reality would be detrimental to whether the story is realistic (and no, I don't mean "not fantastic in its storytelling," I mean "makes sense in the context of its own story and world," and you know that now if your comment about "lol dude its fantasy it doesn't have to be real" was genuine), and second because you are assuming that adding feel-good elements to a story or world improves it in a meaningful way.

[Ottservia]

On 8/11/2019 at 12:36 AM, Florete said:

We already have an example of your suggestion: Awakening. That's the game where the romances just came as they did, and I'm sure you already know how many gay options there were in that one.

to be fair with awakening child units were a major part of that game both story-wise and gameplay wise so having gay options in a game like that would make very little sense because you would miss out on what is essentially a very core mechanic of the game. The same is true of fates albeit to a much lesser degree. 

[Crysta]

Is there any actual downsides to getting more lgbt options?

[Flere210]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Is there any actual downsides to getting more lgbt options?

It depend somewhat on the setting, in general no but imo there is no real upside either, because the quality of the story would stay the exact same. It makes the story more appealing for some people, but this does not make it better.

[Crysta]

2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

It depend somewhat on the setting, in general no but imo there is no real upside either, because the quality of the story would stay the exact same. It makes the story more appealing for some people, but this does not make it better.

If there's an option to make more people happy with no apparent downside, then I see no reason to voice objections. Being more universally appealing does, indeed, usually make the story more receptive. And I consider that better.

There is also no reason why Fodlan cannot have a greater lgbt population than in real life.

[Rose482]

Just reminder that you don't have to be apart of the LGBT community to want more presentation for them in games : ) A point which I have thought to be clear, but whenever someone brings up statistics of LGBT people, it tells me otherwise. 

[Crooks]

19 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You forgot Kyza. Understandable, since NoA toned down his gayness for uprightness, which is still part of his Japanese characterization. But the gay man gets subdued, while Heather doesn't hide at all, odd.

Of course, Kyza is just Leon with some Touch of Gray hair dye and some genetic modifications. 

While Kyza is important to acknowledge, he's not good rep. In the Japanese text, he's an okama, like he's literally called one and somewhere between a gay man and a straight trans woman. Okama is something people might label themselves, but it's not something you should be calling someone. He uses atashi (cutesy feminine, same as Mist/Mia) and is stated to have a man's body, but a woman's heart. Devdan/Dandev also uses atashi, but his quirk in Japanese was him speaking like a woman, and he's clearly a joke. Kyza is... a lot worse rep than Leon. Both might be stereotypical, thus carrying homophobic vibes, but Kyza gets the complication of transphobia too. Here's a discussion/translation related to that.

52 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

It depend somewhat on the setting, in general no but imo there is no real upside either, because the quality of the story would stay the exact same. It makes the story more appealing for some people, but this does not make it better.

While it doesn't make the story better, it makes the game better, in a sense. It makes more people feel included and is honestly a pretty simple change. Making the story more appealing for some people... technically does make it better. Maybe not the story specifically, but the game itself, yes. Adding queer representation doesn't take anything from the game, but adds appeal and interest for many people. And makes the game stay in the spotlight longer, as queer people will think more positively of a game with queer rep and likely promote it and hype it for longer. Adding LGBT characters is good for business, at least in the West, despite the West usually censoring LGBT characters/rep (which has been confirmed for at least two instances in 3h).

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Crooks

[Lightcosmo]

3 hours ago, timon said:

Doesn't that just answer this whole discussion? You can be angry about their choices (I as well am not happy about some things in the game), but ultimately it is their choice.

I agree with this, alot of things arent fair, but they rarely ever care enough/are intelligent enough to see the issues right in front of them. There are things everyone wants changed about the game, that they more than likely wont ever change.

[Book Bro]

Sorry but "5 % of the population is gay so there should not be gay people in FE because realism" is a shit argument. First of all, it's a game where 100% of the characters are romanceable if you're straight which is just as nonsensical and also exists solely for fanservice. Why is it only bad to appease fans when it's a minority group? Second, over the entire series that 5% adds up to more than 1 Leon and 1 Heather. So really we should get a bunch of gay characters at once to make up for all the absences over the years. Third, diversity in fiction is always doable. It's a fantasy game, deciding "there's no gay people here" is a conscious exclusion.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Crooks said:

While Kyza is important to acknowledge, he's not good rep. In the Japanese text, he's an okama, like he's literally called one and somewhere between a gay man and a straight trans woman. Okama is something people might label themselves, but it's not something you should be calling someone. He uses atashi (cutesy feminine, same as Mist/Mia) and is stated to have a man's body, but a woman's heart. Devdan/Dandev also uses atashi, but his quirk in Japanese was him speaking like a woman, and he's clearly a joke. Kyza is... a lot worse rep than Leon. Both might be stereotypical, thus carrying homophobic vibes, but Kyza gets the complication of transphobia too. Here's a discussion/translation related to that.

By Excellus's TMS Mirage which is really bad...

Spoiler

Notice the boobies on this traffic light?

 

And that is why I, Aversa, said my charms work on all "men" but Excellus. What made some Westerners think he was a eunuch?

...I've seen that Amielleon translation before. And I've been informed as to what an okama is. 

This said, like Heather was a well-executed lesbian? All her dialogue amounts to is "I hate men." and "Hey, a cute girl, can I flirt with you?". 

Kyza and Heather are both problematic, but that they exist at all is acknowledgement. Which is better than not existing, provided the acknowledgement isn't too homophobic/transphobic. That translated Kyza blurb does make the point that he is a good soldier, so it admits he has merit, even it gets washed under the atashi.

And there might be some translated interview where it was said Heather (and I would then go and presume Kyza too) is gay by choice. Which is wrong, but considering apparently Japan usually thinks gayness is the result of sexual abuse, implied with Japanese Niles/Zero, to be gay by choice is better than that, if not as good as "born this way". But this is secondhand information for me, I haven't seen either this supposed Heather interview, nor the Niles lines.

 

So in short, all is relative. We have to accept Kyza as some form of good for now. Maybe by FE20 we can call him bad, if by FE20 we've gotten I dunno, twelve good openly LGBTQ characters?

[Florete]

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

to be fair with awakening child units were a major part of that game both story-wise and gameplay wise so having gay options in a game like that would make very little sense because you would miss out on what is essentially a very core mechanic of the game. The same is true of fates albeit to a much lesser degree. 

I addressed this in the same post you quoted:

On 8/10/2019 at 9:36 PM, Florete said:

If magic and dragons can exist in a fantasy setting, it's not out of the realms of possibility that a gay couple could work some magic and have their own baby in that same setting. Why must real-world logic only apply here?

[eclipse]

8 hours ago, nyainou said:

And could I just go play games with more LGBT focus? Yeah. I have, and I do. But FE is a game series I genuinely, wholeheartedly enjoy. Of course I want to feel more included, or rather, not feel like people like me have no place in this universe while dragon lolis do.

I'm far older than the students, but you don't hear me complaining about the lack of age-appropriate people to marry.  And no, I'm not going to break up someone's marriage just to get to a guy.

I'd rather start with racial diversity first - just how many black characters are in the games?

7 hours ago, Crysta said:

Is there any actual downsides to getting more lgbt options?

I'd rather not see them written as stereotypes, which is what happens when oversaturation occurs.  Orientation is a part of a person, not what defines someone.

[zuibangde]

Everyone keeps referring to LGBT representation as a whole but forget that it is specifically how m/m is treated that is causing anger. I’d argue that w/w got pretty good representation as the characters all have different personalities and backgrounds. If the devs truly wanted to be inclusive and diverse, they don’t have to be part of the LGBT community to know that the decisions they made are the opposite of being inclusive. From outsiders, it looks more like deliberate exclusion.

11 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'd rather not see them written as stereotypes, which is what happens when oversaturation occurs.  Orientation is a part of a person, not what defines someone.

Isn’t this why people are angry though? None of the bisexual options in the game are written as stereotypes. In fact the only difference between ‘straight’ Linhardt and ‘gay’ Linhardt is the use of pronouns. What is so difficult about changing pronouns from she/her to he/him that it only allows for one m/m option? 

Edited August 13, 2019 by zuibangde

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

Isn’t this why people are angry though? None of the bisexual options in the game are written as stereotypes. In fact the only difference between ‘straight’ Linhardt and ‘gay’ Linhardt is the use of pronouns. What is so difficult about changing pronouns from she/her to he/him that it only allows for one m/m option? 

Currently have Linhart's C support.  I don't like where it's headed, even if it's the female version (from the text, it's probably the male version, too).  Assuming Linhart's supports are similar regardless of which Byleth is talking, I'm probably not going to be happy with how he's handled.

From what I've seen of the writing, the stereotypes aren't as grating as a couple of past titles.  I have some issues with certain situations, but I'm not far enough into the game to say whether or not this is truly bad writing, or because I don't have the full story yet (leaning towards the latter).  As I continue to build supports, this should answer itself.

Then again, if this was truly realistic, there would be mostly straight options, a few bisexual ones, some purely gay options, some that refuse to get married under any circumstance, etc.  And it wouldn't be an issue until the S support (flirty characters nonwithstanding).

[Interdimensional Observer]

21 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'd rather not see them written as stereotypes, which is what happens when oversaturation occurs.  Orientation is a part of a person, not what defines someone.

I don't think we're anywhere near this yet.

And why don't companies hire a freelance LGBTQ writer if they want to add some gender/sexuality diversity characters and don't know how to handle it themselves? All they have to write is ~5 people at most. How much would they have to pay such a writer, and how difficult would it be to integrate their character-writing style with the game's general feel?

[eclipse]

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't think we're anywhere near this yet.

And why don't companies hire a freelance LGBTQ writer if they want to add some gender/sexuality diversity characters and don't know how to handle it themselves? All they have to write is ~5 people at most. How much would they have to pay such a writer, and how difficult would it be to integrate their character-writing style with the game's general feel?

It's a counter-argument to the notion that having more of a thing that doesn't appear to be harmful can't be bad.  It can be.

I'll settle for a good writer - preferably one that can write a convincing story about a society that ruthlessly purges people with periwinkle hair (or something equally ridiculous).

[Interdimensional Observer]

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'll settle for a good writer - preferably one that can write a convincing story about a society that ruthlessly purges people with periwinkle hair (or something equally ridiculous).

Fine by me. But I'd rather execute anyone who is 5'11 in height. Any shorter or taller is fine. But 5'11s must perish. If you are 5'11 you better start doing everything you can to gain or lose inches or hide your inhuman measurement. 

[Florete]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

I'd rather not see them written as stereotypes, which is what happens when oversaturation occurs.  Orientation is a part of a person, not what defines someone.

On the contrary, if there are enough that some would call it "over-saturated," some more stereotypical types are not only fine, I'd say even welcomed. Stereotypes exist for a reason, and people like that do exist in real life and deserve to be represented. The problem comes from when that's the only representation, especially when it's done in poor taste.

Yeah, there are people out there, both straight and gay, for whom orientation basically does define them.

[Crysta]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

I'm far older than the students, but you don't hear me complaining about the lack of age-appropriate people to marry.  And no, I'm not going to break up someone's marriage just to get to a guy.

I'd rather start with racial diversity first - just how many black characters are in the games?

I'd rather not see them written as stereotypes, which is what happens when oversaturation occurs.  Orientation is a part of a person, not what defines someone.

Uh, what? Is there a diversity priority order or something? We can't do both at once?

The same writing pitfalls/stereotypes happen when it comes to writing racial minorities, too. And gender. Practically anything that deviates from the norm risks being written by someone who doesn't know what the hell they're doing. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be an attempt to diversify.