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Alastor15243

Weapon tier list?

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Has there been enough discourse about the weapons in this game to attempt a sort of "weapon tier list"? Given how weapons are infinite use and thus really there's no reason to not use the best ones, combined with the fact that the weapons in this game often have really bizarre, excessive and complicated drawbacks, I honestly feel this would be an interesting discussion.

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in terms of tactics, if i remember well there's weapons that are based mostly on first attack/counters compared to others wich are more "straight forward" with their uses.

going by factions, my list would be:

Hoshido

» Swords: Practice katana

» Spears: Waterwheel - Guard naginata

» Clubs: Great club - Adamant club - Hoe club

» Yumis: Setsuna's yumi - Illusory yumi - Harp yumi

» Shurikens: Barb shuriken - Caltrop - Kaze's needle - Saizo's star

» Scrolls: Snake Spirit - Horse Spirit

 

Nohr

» Swords: Brave sword - Killing Edge - Leo's Iceblade - Nohrian Blade

» Spears: Brave Lance - Killer Lance - Hexlock Spear

» Axes: Brave axe - Killer axe

» Bows: Brave bow - Killer bow - Violin bow - Anna's bow

» Daggers: Soldier's Knife - Jakob's Tray

» Tomes: Lightning - Mjolnir - Iago's Tome

 

then again, it all depends on the playstyle/situation. Dual weapons can be viable too if used properly.

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To start, I'd say killers and braves in general are low tier, and the "Great" Club in particular is an easy bottom tier because it's just inaccurate to the point of unusability.

2 hours ago, Fenreir said:

in terms of tactics, if i remember well there's weapons that are based mostly on first attack/counters compared to others wich are more "straight forward" with their uses.

going by factions, my list would be:

Hoshido

» Swords: Practice katana

» Spears: Waterwheel - Guard naginata

» Clubs: Great club - Adamant club - Hoe club

» Yumis: Setsuna's yumi - Illusory yumi - Harp yumi

» Shurikens: Barb shuriken - Caltrop - Kaze's needle - Saizo's star

» Scrolls: Snake Spirit - Horse Spirit

 

Nohr

» Swords: Brave sword - Killing Edge - Leo's Iceblade - Nohrian Blade

» Spears: Brave Lance - Killer Lance - Hexlock Spear

» Axes: Brave axe - Killer axe

» Bows: Brave bow - Killer bow - Violin bow - Anna's bow

» Daggers: Soldier's Knife - Jakob's Tray

» Tomes: Lightning - Mjolnir - Iago's Tome

 

then again, it all depends on the playstyle/situation. Dual weapons can be viable too if used properly.

I don't see why you think the "Great Club" is good - 45 base hit is an automatic dealbreaker, far as I'm concerned.

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18 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

To start, I'd say killers and braves in general are low tier, and the "Great" Club in particular is an easy bottom tier because it's just inaccurate to the point of unusability.

Killers I can sympathize with because they're not reliable enough for my playstyle, but why braves? They're amazing player-phase weapons in a game where player phase is really useful and often needed.

Edited by Alastor15243

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31 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Killers I can sympathize with because they're not reliable enough for my playstyle, but why braves? They're amazing player-phase weapons in a game where player phase is really useful and often needed.

Because they have unforged iron level might (Strike 1), they have worrisome accuracy, or at least the lance and axe (Strike 2), they either have defense drops or neuter your offense after use (Strike 3), and they're A rank with the exception of Lightning, which has a lousy 1 might and drops your stats (Strike 4).

Edited by Shadow Mir

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16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because they have unforged iron level might (Strike 1), they have worrisome accuracy, or at least the lance and axe (Strike 2), they either have defense drops or neuter your offense after use (Strike 3), and they're A rank with the exception of Lightning, which has a lousy 1 might and drops your stats (Strike 4).

1: If they're put on anyone with remotely passable strength, the might drop over some other weapons is not going to undermine the doubled attacks.

2: Player phase lets you control who attacks who, so weapon triangle, not to mention attack stance buffs, often lets you compensate for the lower accuracy, as, again, does the doubled number of attacks,

3: The defense drops are meaningless because you're never going to equip the things on enemy phase, though the halved strength I will grant you,

4: Yes, low availability due to weapon rank, but availability is meaningless for this discussion because nobody does item drafts. If you have someone who can use a brave weapon, there are very few situations on player phase where that isn't their best option. And Lightning is magical and targets a lower defensive stat, so having low might barely matters, and also its nerfing is way better than the halving strength of the bow and soldier's knife since those put you totally out of commission for their next attack whereas as long as you only use lightning every other turn or so your offense will be fine.

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28 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

1: If they're put on anyone with remotely passable strength, the might drop over some other weapons is not going to undermine the doubled attacks.

2: Player phase lets you control who attacks who, so weapon triangle, not to mention attack stance buffs, often lets you compensate for the lower accuracy, as, again, does the doubled number of attacks,

3: The defense drops are meaningless because you're never going to equip the things on enemy phase, though the halved strength I will grant you,

4: Yes, low availability due to weapon rank, but availability is meaningless for this discussion because nobody does item drafts. If you have someone who can use a brave weapon, there are very few situations on player phase where that isn't their best option. And Lightning is magical and targets a lower defensive stat, so having low might barely matters, and also its nerfing is way better than the halving strength of the bow and soldier's knife since those put you totally out of commission for their next attack whereas as long as you only use lightning every other turn or so your offense will be fine.

The problem is that should bad luck strike, which it does surprisingly often, the counter is going to be that much worse because of the defense drops. Oh, and Snake Spirit has the same issues, though it's a Hoshidan weapon, in addition to being a tome (technically, a scroll, but whatever) in a game where mages aren't that great.

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is that should bad luck strike, which it does surprisingly often, the counter is going to be that much worse because of the defense drops. Oh, and Snake Spirit has the same issues, though it's a Hoshidan weapon, in addition to being a tome (technically, a scroll, but whatever) in a game where mages aren't that great.

"That much worse" is four damage worse. If your player phase attackers are four hp away from death after fighting a single enemy, maybe you aren't using them right.

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10 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

"That much worse" is four damage worse. If your player phase attackers are four hp away from death after fighting a single enemy, maybe you aren't using them right.

Either way, it's not something I'm willing to invite in a game where defense is more important than ever.

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If we're counting legendary weapons, I'd say that we're probably looking at, in order:

Siegfried: 1-2 range with good stats, a critical evade boost, and an increase to bulk that applies even when not equipped.

Brynhildr: 1-2 range, magical, with comparable stats to Siegfried along with the boost to critical evade, but an unreliable defensive ability that (I think) only works while equipped.

Raijinto: Same stats as Siegfried, but 5 less defense and 1 less resistance for one point of speed and four points of strength, and trading crit evade for regular evade which isn't as reliably useful.

Fujin Yumi: While the terrain movement boost is nice, it's the only legendary weapon in the game that is statistically completely outclassed by later weapons of the type you're going to get, and it's the only one with a terrible enemy phase.

 

I'm not sure where to put the various Yatos on this list. Personally I'd rate the Nohr Yatos higher than the Hoshido Yatos, but in general those stat boosts are really, really good, it's just a question of how to evaluate the "even when not equipped" effects of them for tiering and thus how many points they should lose for not being 1-2 range.

Edited by Alastor15243

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

If we're counting legendary weapons, I'd say that we're probably looking at, in order:

Siegfried: 1-2 range with good stats, a critical evade boost, and an increase to bulk that applies even when not equipped.

Brynhildr: 1-2 range, magical, with comparable stats to Siegfried along with the boost to critical evade, but an unreliable defensive ability that (I think) only works while equipped.

Raijinto: Same stats as Siegfried, but 5 less defense and 1 less resistance for one point of speed and four points of strength, and trading crit evade for regular evade which isn't as reliably useful.

Fujin Yumi: While the terrain movement boost is nice, it's the only legendary weapon in the game that is statistically completely outclassed by later weapons of the type you're going to get, and it's the only one with a terrible enemy phase.

 

I'm not sure where to put the various Yatos on this list. Personally I'd rate the Nohr Yatos higher than the Hoshido Yatos, but in general those stat boosts are really, really good, it's just a question of how to evaluate the "even when not equipped" effects of them for tiering and thus how many points they should lose for not being 1-2 range.

Doesn't Brynhildr's effect only work against magic attacks? I'd think that's also an issue since Leo is already good at taking magic hits, meaning it won't help that much. Anyway, I'd agree on the Hoshido Yatos being lower than the Nohr Yatos because you get them 5 chapters later, relatively speaking (Grim comes at the end of 14, Noble at the end of 19).

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

To start, I'd say killers and braves in general are low tier, and the "Great" Club in particular is an easy bottom tier because it's just inaccurate to the point of unusability.

I don't see why you think the "Great Club" is good - 45 base hit is an automatic dealbreaker, far as I'm concerned.

 

fe15skill_79.png Swordbreaker Hit rate and Avoid +50 when the enemy is equipped with a Sword
fe15skill_81.png Axebreaker Hit rate and Avoid +50 when the enemy is equipped with an Axe
fe15skill_80.png Lancebreaker Hit rate and Avoid +50 when the enemy is equipped with a Lance
fe15skill_60.png Certain Blow When user triggers the battle, Hit rate +40
fe15skill_89.png Heartseeker When fighting adjacent to an enemy, enemy’s Avoid -20
fe15skill_87.png Lucky Seven Hit rate and Avoid +20 for the first seven Turns

 

and i could go on, and on, and on.

Breaker skills alone should be more than enough to rebalance the lack of accuracy, then you can slot Certain Blow to increase the chances even further.

with the MyCastle feature you can get any skill you want, so feel free to spare me the route-locked skills argument.

actually, you can spare me any sort of answer for that matter.

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@Fenreir I'm not sure we should be taking skill-buying into account. That seems like the sort of thing character tier lists ignore, so it would be odd to take it into account here. It's an incredibly easy way to break the game. 

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27 minutes ago, Fenreir said:

 

fe15skill_79.png Swordbreaker Hit rate and Avoid +50 when the enemy is equipped with a Sword
fe15skill_81.png Axebreaker Hit rate and Avoid +50 when the enemy is equipped with an Axe
fe15skill_80.png Lancebreaker Hit rate and Avoid +50 when the enemy is equipped with a Lance
fe15skill_60.png Certain Blow When user triggers the battle, Hit rate +40
fe15skill_89.png Heartseeker When fighting adjacent to an enemy, enemy’s Avoid -20
fe15skill_87.png Lucky Seven Hit rate and Avoid +20 for the first seven Turns

 

and i could go on, and on, and on.

Breaker skills alone should be more than enough to rebalance the lack of accuracy, then you can slot Certain Blow to increase the chances even further.

with the MyCastle feature you can get any skill you want, so feel free to spare me the route-locked skills argument.

actually, you can spare me any sort of answer for that matter.

Here's the fatal flaw with this: skill buying tends to not be counted in discussions like this. Aside from that, three of those skills you mentioned are level 15 skills, meaning they're not gonna be relevant for very long, if at all unless you're one of three specific units. Another is temporary, another is only once a turn, and the last comes from a magic class.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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42 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

@Fenreir I'm not sure we should be taking skill-buying into account. That seems like the sort of thing character tier lists ignore, so it would be odd to take it into account here. It's an incredibly easy way to break the game. 

 

On 8/11/2019 at 3:43 PM, Alastor15243 said:

Given how weapons are infinite use and thus really there's no reason to not use the best ones, combined with the fact that the weapons in this game often have really bizarre, excessive and complicated drawbacks

by default, any weapon that does not give debuffs to the user is already a step forward compared to the others.

then there's those that give stats boosts to the unit/allies, wich can be used as alternative rally skills.

then again, if you want "reliable" damage from the weapons themself, you just don't pick Killer weapons or any other rng-based weapon for that matter. you go with Braves for the double attacks, and that's it.

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2 hours ago, Fenreir said:

by default, any weapon that does not give debuffs to the user is already a step forward compared to the others.

then there's those that give stats boosts to the unit/allies, wich can be used as alternative rally skills.

then again, if you want "reliable" damage from the weapons themself, you just don't pick Killer weapons or any other rng-based weapon for that matter. you go with Braves for the double attacks, and that's it.

I agree with your first comment, but I find your other two iffy - first, the rallies from the weapons that activate the rallies aren't that great, other than Kaze's Needle and Saizo's Star, both of which are the same weapon type. Also, just how often do you use those weapons when you have a decent amount of units in rally range??? Second, I wouldn't be using braves for reliable damage, especially the Snake Spirit, Brave Lance or Brave Axe.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Axes = Tomes >>> Bows = Knives >>> Swords = Spears >>>>> Beast stones.

Swords and spears have situational uses and are fine early game.

Nosferatu, lightning, horse spirit, brave axe, Bolt axe, Calamity gate, and Dual club are simply the best weapons in this game by an enormous margin.

The special royal swords are just sharp tomes.

The true Yato(s) is a statstick that eats inventory space. It's function as a real weapon is pretty trash as dealing 75% damage against dragonskin is worse than dealing double damage on everything and it's a 1-1 forged iron sword on EP.

Edited by joshcja

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Nosferatu will fall off late game on lunatic when promoted enemies with silver weapons have so much attack that they one shot your mage.

While we get several good archers in conquest, bows are still very limited on the enemy phase which makes Knives far more effective as a 1-2 weapon. Shout out to Levin Sword for a magic boon Corrin, while the -20 avoid is a big nerf, its 11 MT makes it more powerful than tomes for hitting RES.

Axes tend to be held back by the lack of good axe users. Its part of what makes Camilla so great, she starts with the bases to dominate with axes including the bolt axe. Feel free to feed her spirit dust if her magic starts to fall behind. Alternative, there are crazy ideas like Malig Knight Elise.

Edited by wissenschaft

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1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

Nosferatu will fall off late game on lunatic when promoted enemies with silver weapons have so much attack that they one shot your mage.

A Nitpick...

This simply does not happen, not even vs dragonsbane weapons on -def Corrin!Ophelia using LaD. Silvers fail to kill after negative chain enfeeble staves on CH28.

The bulk gain from stack goes to +21 without touching long term resources.

(Admitedly the only mage using nos over forged tome/rev gate VLaD after X/15 is Odin but he caps Def and HP regularly so implying that anything can actually kill him is equally disingenuous)

I guess Nyx can get one shotted? If this is the case I wasn't aware that ch9 was late game.

Edited by joshcja

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1 hour ago, joshcja said:

A Nitpick...

This simply does not happen, not even vs dragonsbane weapons on -def Corrin!Ophelia using LaD. Silvers fail to kill after negative chain enfeeble staves on CH28.

The bulk gain from stack goes to +21 without touching long term resources.

(Admitedly the only mage using nos over forged tome/rev gate VLaD after X/15 is Odin but he caps Def and HP regularly so implying that anything can actually kill him is equally disingenuous)

I guess Nyx can get one shotted? If this is the case I wasn't aware that ch9 was late game.

Hmm, my Ophiela when I recruited her in my current run was in danger of getting one shotted by Beserkers with silver axes. But her mother was Elise so I guess that naturally makes her squishy. I don't  know what to say but I don't use Nos much so I'll defer to you. I suppose I should try Odin with Nos in my next run since Nos main job is to keep the mage alive, not to kill anyone. And suitability is a key trait on lunatic.

Anyway, the point of my post was pretty much all the weapons in Fates are dependent on the user. Camilla using Axes is a big difference from Athur. I tend to have the whole weapons triangle in my team because WTA is a big deal in the game.

Edited by wissenschaft

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9 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

Hmm, my Ophiela when I recruited her in my current run was in danger of getting one shotted by Beserkers with silver axes. But her mother was Elise so I guess that naturally makes her squishy. I don't  know what to say but I don't use Nos much so I'll defer to you. I suppose I should try Odin with Nos in my next run since Nos main job is to keep the mage alive, not to kill anyone. And suitability is a key trait on lunatic.

Anyway, the point of my post was pretty much all the weapons in Fates are dependent on the user. Camilla using Axes is a big difference from Athur. I tend to have the whole weapons triangle in my team because WTA is a big deal in the game.

Yeah the Elise!Ophy described would have less than her mom-modified base bulk on a late join and Be's are Be's. We'd need tonic + dual auras to let her eat a hit on join.

(I just use all the shines cause if you cannot win covered in sharpswag... did you really win at all?

Edited by joshcja

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On 8/12/2019 at 7:26 AM, Fenreir said:

Nohr

» Swords: Brave sword - Killing Edge - Leo's Iceblade - Nohrian Blade

» Spears: Brave Lance - Killer Lance - Hexlock Spear

» Axes: Brave axe - Killer axe

» Bows: Brave bow - Killer bow - Violin bow - Anna's bow

» Daggers: Soldier's Knife - Jakob's Tray

» Tomes: Lightning - Mjolnir - Iago's Tome

Since you included "special" weapons, you could have also included the Barbarian Axe and the Sacrificial Knife (I am not sure about their English names.) While they take 30 % of the HP per use, they have very high might and excellent accuracy, which make them perfect for Enemy Phase. And since they cannot kill the user, 1 HP is just as useful as 40 HP.

And I am surprised that you did not include the Shining Bow, which is the preferred weapon for Anna and most Adventurers. Its high might make it useful even for units with average Magic.

The Hunter's Knife and specially the Hunter's Bow are overpowered as fuck, since their wielders will either one-hit or double every mounted unit in the game.

While one gets rid of Ninjas with Bows, Axes and Calamity Gate, Javelins (and their wielders) are your first choice to hold them back (well, those and Siegfried, but Xander is a hack.)

I do not know, I would simply pick an entirely different set of weapons.

 

On 8/13/2019 at 11:14 PM, wissenschaft said:

While we get several good archers in conquest, bows are still very limited on the enemy phase which makes Knives far more effective as a 1-2 weapon.

I agree with what you say, but one must also mention that Conquest is basically a Player Phase game. The fact that a Ninja wielding daggers can magic-tank Sorcerers is because of their niche (high Resistance and WTA) and not exactly because of their Enemy-Phase capacities. A typical dagger wielder is as squishy or squishier than a typical bow wielder, and would die as easily against physical attacks, regardless of having 1-2 range.
On Player Phase, dagger- and bow wielders either fulfil the same role: a Ninja or an Outlaw would finish a weakened enemy; or play entirely different roles: a Sniper deletes any enemy unit, while a Ninja de-buffs one.

 

On 8/13/2019 at 11:14 PM, wissenschaft said:

Axes tend to be held back by the lack of good axe users. Its part of what makes Camilla so great, she starts with the bases to dominate with axes including the bolt axe. Feel free to feed her spirit dust if her magic starts to fall behind. Alternative, there are crazy ideas like Malig Knight Elise.

If you dislike Arthur, then Hero Silas, Hero Sophie, Hero Laslow, Hero Soleil, Whatever Percy, Berserker Effie, Berserker Velouria (as long as Keaton did not sniffed something like Nyx's ass), Wyvern Lords Selena, Beruka and Gunter, and General Benny and Ignatius are all good axe users.

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The only issue is almost all of those characters don't start with access to axes and have to grind through E rank. Its certainly doable and effective but its just annoying that the units that start with axes have so many issues that cripple them. At least I can buy skills like certain blow and death blow to make characters like Arthur work. He is a very amusing character. FOR JUSTICE!

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16 minutes ago, starburst said:

Since you included "special" weapons, you could have also included the Barbarian Axe and the Sacrificial Knife (I am not sure about their English names.) While they take 30 % of the HP per use, they have very high might and excellent accuracy, which make them perfect for Enemy Phase. And since they cannot kill the user, 1 HP is just as useful as 40 HP.

You got the Sacrificial Knife's name right, but the other one is the Berserker's Axe. Also, I'd correct you and say that they're not that good for enemy phase unless you were planning to engage one enemy specifically (that said, I think you mistyped and meant player phase).

12 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

The only issue is almost all of those characters don't start with access to axes and have to grind through E rank. Its certainly doable and effective but its just annoying that the units that start with axes have so many issues that cripple them. At least I can buy skills like certain blow and death blow to make characters like Arthur work. He is a very amusing character. FOR JUSTICE!

Other than Camilla and Scarlet, who are the only good axe units this game has to offer.

On 8/13/2019 at 9:14 PM, wissenschaft said:

While we get several good archers in conquest, bows are still very limited on the enemy phase which makes Knives far more effective as a 1-2 weapon.

I doubt it - the strongest knife that doesn't harm you or debuff you is only 7 might. Not to mention the lack of classes that can use them (three of the classes that get them are in the same class tree, another is DLC, and the last is related to a healing class).

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22 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I doubt it - the strongest knife that doesn't harm you or debuff you is only 7 might. Not to mention the lack of classes that can use them (three of the classes that get them are in the same class tree, another is DLC, and the last is related to a healing class).

Does Ninja Corrin not count for anything? Oh and I suppose I do cheat by forging steel shuriken I buy from visits. Oops. lol

Come to think of it, 1-2 range is really punished in this game. Which is why the bolt axe is so awesome. One of the few 1-2 range weapons that doesn't have a downside. You just need to make sure the user has enough magic and speed to ORKO reliably.

This just brings me back to my original point. Its hard to say any weapon type is the best since what unit is using what weapon makes a very large difference in a weapon types effectiveness.

Edited by wissenschaft

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