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Weapon tier list?


Alastor15243
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17 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

I don't agree with that at all. The class balance is terrible in Three Houses. Its flyer emblem because flyers for some odd reason have the best growths.

I was thinking more in terms of units, not classes. I can only think of one obvious problem unit in 3H - that being Raphael - while Fates has way more. Aside from the ones I already mentioned, damn near all the mages come to mind, as well as Setsuna, Mozu, the samurai besides Ryoma, etc. And this isn't even getting into Revelation.

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

I was thinking more in terms of units, not classes. I can only think of one obvious problem unit in 3H - that being Raphael - while Fates has way more. Aside from the ones I already mentioned, damn near all the mages come to mind, as well as Setsuna, Mozu, the samurai besides Ryoma, etc. And this isn't even getting into Revelation.

Doesn't Three Houses' version of Mozu/Donnel have aptitude as his personal skill, but his growths are so terrible that they barely break even when aptitude is added, making him just a mediocre underleveled unit?

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Doesn't Three Houses' version of Mozu/Donnel have aptitude as his personal skill, but his growths are so terrible that they barely break even when aptitude is added, making him just a mediocre underleveled unit?

Yeah. That said, I'd say he's still better than Raphael despite that (owing to Raphael's crippling overspecialization - ergo, he's got good HP and Strength, and decent Defense, but he dump stats everything else for this, resulting in something that feels REALLY GBA Fighter-esque).

Edited by Shadow Mir
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10 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

I know what you mean. I love the story of Three Houses but the gameplay is SO much better in Conquest. Just take the class system, its far more interesting in Fates with a lot of diverse builds and methods of beating the game. We shall see what lunatic mode is like in 3H but I fear it will be awakening rehashed. Enemy stats so high your forced to feed one unit all the experience to make a monster able to solo the game.

The thing is that I play Fire Emblem games because of the game-play, while the story is secondary to me. If anything, I rank higher the characters. And I do not even pretend to see complex, award-winning ones; as long as I like their looks and they are somewhat interesting or fun, I am fine.
Granted, Conquest has a terrible story that is also terribly told, but the game-play is so fun that I enjoy it as an engaging tactical game.

I have only played the first couple of chapters of Three Houses (two different campaigns, about five hours in on each), but the whole castle is just padding for me, the maps themselves were boring, and the overall difficulty was low. All these translate into a bad game for me, for I did not enjoy those hours.
I did not liked the lack of a proper Weapon Triangle, nor that all units could wield all weapons, nor having numerous class levels but still uninteresting classes themselves.
Anyway, I will try it again. Someday. Hopefully Lunatic will not be a second Awakening.

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1 hour ago, starburst said:

all units could wield all weapons

Not true. Gauntlets cannot be used by mounted units, nor can they be used by mages. Anyway, the real purpose for this is to help with getting the requirements for class changes.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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14 minutes ago, starburst said:

The thing is that I play Fire Emblem games because of the game-play, while the story is secondary to me. If anything, I rank higher the characters. And I do not even pretend to see complex, award-winning ones; as long as I like their looks and they are somewhat interesting or fun, I am fine.
Granted, Conquest has a terrible story that is also terribly told, but the game-play is so fun that I enjoy it as an engaging tactical game.

I have only played the first couple of chapters of Three Houses (two different campaigns, about five hours in on each), but the whole castle is just padding for me, the maps themselves were boring, and the overall difficulty was low. All these translate into a bad game for me, for I did not enjoy those hours.
I did not liked the lack of a proper Weapon Triangle, nor that all units could wield all weapons, nor having numerous class levels but still uninteresting classes themselves.
Anyway, I will try it again. Someday. Hopefully Lunatic will not be a second Awakening.

FYI, Three Houses gets more interesting maps latter in the game, especially in the second half. The lack of weapon restrictions helps you build weapon rank for class changes. That said, the map design still doesn't compare to Conquest. Also, getting sub-par characters like Charolette and Arthur to work is part of the charm to Conquest and that comes from giving them good skills even if you have to buy them. The skill system in Fates is fantastic.

Edited by wissenschaft
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23 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

FYI, Three Houses gets more interesting maps latter in the game, especially in the second half. The lack of weapon restrictions helps you build weapon rank for class changes. That said, the map design still doesn't compare to Conquest. Also, getting sub-par characters like Charolette and Arthur to work is part of the charm to Conquest and that comes from giving them good skills even if you have to buy them. The skill system in Fates is fantastic.

Real talk.

Arthur is one of the stronger gen1 units. He's got a bad CH7 but everyone not named Silias, Corrin, or Jakob has a bad CH7 and he's got great pairup adds there along with bronze axe hitrate and hand axe DS. He scales pretty well into ch 9 and 10 where axes are a stellar weapon type and can make Percy before ch10.

For long term use Be + Dual club + forged handy + brave axe  (+15) stack, Luna lunge and Sol with a dragonwife are all greatmazing for a combat unit. He also gets both horse and bird access reasonably early.

Early males are just stronk.

Edited by joshcja
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6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

So if I'm following your line of reasoning, Malig Knight is bad for Elise because people who aren't Elise have better options?

No. It's bad for Elise because it doesn't really fix her issues, and because she's obviously slanted towards being magical. And while she can use the Bolt Axe... *snicker* Good luck with that. You'll need it with her shit skill.

4 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

I don't agree with that at all. The class balance is terrible in Three Houses. It heavily favors the mounted units. Now, the characters themselves may well be more viable as a whole then those in conquest but thats a different matter than the classes themselves. For example, in conquest dark mage isn't a terrible class so much as the only gen 1 dark mages we have are quite flawed. The same with Arthur and Charlotte, their class isn't the issue so much as their stat flaws.

Class balance in Three Houses might be terrible, but so what? It's not like Fire Emblem hasn't had wack class balance before (See: FE6, FE4, FE9... I could go on, really). Case in point: Fighters, archers and armors are the most complained about classes. Armors in particular seem to inspire a new "how do we make this class good" (or something along those lines) thread quite a lot. And I'd MUCH sooner say that Arthur and Charlotte are fucked over both by their class and their statistical flaws.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Class balance in Three Houses might be terrible, but so what? It's not like Fire Emblem hasn't had wack class balance before (See: FE6, FE4, FE9... I could go on, really). Case in point: Fighters, archers and armors are the most complained about classes. Armors in particular seem to inspire a new "how do we make armors good" (or something along those lines) thread quite a lot.

But you're the one who argued that balance was a point in its favor.

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

No. It's bad for Elise because it doesn't really fix her issues, and because she's obviously slanted towards being magical. And while she can use the Bolt Axe... *snicker* Good luck with that. You'll need it with her shit skill.

She can use very accurate tomes, and she's a magical nuke. I think the option of making her a flying magic nuke more than justifies the decision to give her access to the wyvern rider class tree, not to mention how it fits with her characterization of idolizing Camilla. What exactly would have been a better option for her?

Edited by Alastor15243
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Just now, Alastor15243 said:

But you're the one who argued it was good.

She can use very accurate tomes, and she's a magical nuke. I think the option of making her a flying magic nuke more than justifies the decision to give her access to the wyvern rider class tree, not to mention how it fits with her characterization of idolizing Camilla. What exactly would have been a better option for her?

I was talking about unit balance specifically... Unless you think that Three Houses has worse unit balance than Fates, which I VERY highly doubt.

And yet she's still fragile. Also, how exactly do you propose getting her there???

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7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

What kind of question is that? She levels up by healing, you promote her, and then you give her a heart seal.

Okay, fine, but I still stand by it being not that great for her, because I'm giving up staves for useless axes. If I'm considering Malig Knight for anyone, it's because they're good both physically and magically. Needless to say, Elise does NOT fulfill that condition. 

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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay, fine, but I still stand by it being not that great for her, because I'm giving up staves for useless axes. If I'm considering Malig Knight for anyone, it's because they're good both physically and magically. Needless to say, Elise does NOT fulfill that condition. 

No thought for flight at all? Really? That's one of the major points to it.

Edited by Alastor15243
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19 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

No thought for flight at all? Really? That's one of the major points to it.

Not one. Wings alone are not enough of a redeeming feature for me.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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On 8/16/2019 at 5:08 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Not one. Wings alone are not enough of a redeeming feature for me.

You are being too subjective. If you look at the raw numbers, Elise reclassed to Wyvern before Ch.8 and promoted around level 16 or 17 is more than capable of reliable (greater than 85% but haha Fates rng so bad you always miss xD) hit rates against most enemies with WTA, and for those she doesn't have WTA against she can use tomes which have 100 hit. With consistent use starting in Chapter 8 you can reach C axes some time during Chapter 11 or 13 (since she is unavailable in 12). This is not with any kind of favoritism, unless you count "using a unit once per turn" as favoritism.

This is ignoring how busted fliers are in Fates from an objective standpoint due to the abundance of terrain which is otherwise not navigable in a reasonably timely manner by land units.

Elise is not a great staff user on Lunatic in particular, because you can capture Shrine Maidens with B staves that do her job better, more accurately, and sooner. You only ever need one staff user at most in the early portion of the game, and later on you can capture Maids with S staves (not to mention Izana and Flora) to further supplement your support suite if you so desire. If you think of capture as anathematic, you still have the other servant early who is more than capable of managing all the healing duties for your team.

Keeping Elise as a staff user is not only inessential for your team in the long run, she becomes outright superfluous very early if you keep her in that role - her only advantage is being mounted, but with access to pair up this issue is minor compared to, say GBA FE where Troubadours utterly outclass Clerics/Priests thanks to being on a horse.

This isn't to say that having one unit who is good at something precludes using other units who can fill that role also (if that were the case I would say leave all Wyvern duty to Camilla). What I'm saying is, using a unit in a role in which they are average at best when they could instead excel in a role that is mostly unique to them (Camilla's magic isn't that good, your other Wyvern options are purely physical, and Corrin can do anything so it isn't a fair comparison) is doing that unit, and your army as a whole, a disservice.

I will concede that she is frail, but with proper attack and guard stance coordination as well as positioning (easier because she is a flier), she should not be a liability unless you misplay - which is not the fault of the unit. She can take a hit or two from most enemies and she won't ever be getting doubled. If we said anyone who died when we played poorly was a weak unit, no one would be good in any Fire Emblem game.

Edited by De Geso
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4 hours ago, De Geso said:

You are being too subjective. If you look at the raw numbers, Elise reclassed to Wyvern before Ch.8 and promoted around level 16 or 17 is more than capable of reliable (greater than 85% but haha Fates rng so bad you always miss xD) hit rates against most enemies with WTA, and for those she doesn't have WTA against she can use tomes which have 100 hit. With consistent use starting in Chapter 8 you can reach C axes some time during Chapter 11 or 13 (since she is unavailable in 12). This is not with any kind of favoritism, unless you count "using a unit once per turn" as favoritism.

This is ignoring how busted fliers are in Fates from an objective standpoint due to the abundance of terrain which is otherwise not navigable in a reasonably timely manner by land units.

Elise is not a great staff user on Lunatic in particular, because you can capture Shrine Maidens with B staves that do her job better, more accurately, and sooner. You only ever need one staff user at most in the early portion of the game, and later on you can capture Maids with S staves (not to mention Izana and Flora) to further supplement your support suite if you so desire. If you think of capture as anathematic, you still have the other servant early who is more than capable of managing all the healing duties for your team.

Keeping Elise as a staff user is not only inessential for your team in the long run, she becomes outright superfluous very early if you keep her in that role - her only advantage is being mounted, but with access to pair up this issue is minor compared to, say GBA FE where Troubadours utterly outclass Clerics/Priests thanks to being on a horse.

This isn't to say that having one unit who is good at something precludes using other units who can fill that role also (if that were the case I would say leave all Wyvern duty to Camilla). What I'm saying is, using a unit in a role in which they are average at best when they could instead excel in a role that is mostly unique to them (Camilla's magic isn't that good, your other Wyvern options are purely physical, and Corrin can do anything so it isn't a fair comparison) is doing that unit, and your army as a whole, a disservice.

I will concede that she is frail, but with proper attack and guard stance coordination as well as positioning (easier because she is a flier), she should not be a liability unless you misplay - which is not the fault of the unit. She can take a hit or two from most enemies and she won't ever be getting doubled. If we said anyone who died when we played poorly was a weak unit, no one would be good in any Fire Emblem game.

With 3 skill, which I would deem unacceptable on effing normal mode, never mind Hard or Lunatic? And when you're using the least accurate weapons to boot? *hysterical but honest laughter* Lots of luck working with that, because You. Are Gonna. Need It. That's precisely what Wyvern Elise has to start with, and working with axes makes that a match made in Hell.

Let me ask - why would I need B staves that soon when only two staves require B rank? And that's assuming that I'm using Niles over the long term, to which I say.... *more hysterical but honest laughter*

You wanna talk about doing your army a disservice? How about going for some half-assed gimmick just to be "unique" (AKA Wyvern Elise)? Because being unique does NOT mean being useful.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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5 hours ago, De Geso said:

I will concede that she is frail, but with proper attack and guard stance coordination as well as positioning (easier because she is a flier), she should not be a liability unless you misplay - which is not the fault of the unit. She can take a hit or two from most enemies and she won't ever be getting doubled. If we said anyone who died when we played poorly was a weak unit, no one would be good in any Fire Emblem game.

To add to your point, most units in Conquest Lunatic can't take more than 1 or two hits anyway. Its why Xander, Camilla, and Benny are so great, they can take multiple hits. So the fact that Elise can't take hits as a malig knight isn't a big deal. If you reclass Camilla as Myvern Lord then having Elise as a bolt axe user is really great. Shes not bad. Skill is mostly meaningless when she has 100% accurate with tomes easily and use WTA for the bolt axe. You should leave her unpaired for attack stance use and thats enough to get her skills. Now the grind to C rank axes is a pain but thats why you start asap. Forged Bronze axes helps as well.

Is this really the best idea for using Elise........not really but it works. Even on Lunatic. Its something fun to do on a replay. Flora can replace Elise as a healer and her low speed doesn't mean anything because Elise as a healer gets one shot anyway on Lunatic.

Edited by wissenschaft
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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Let me ask - why would I need B staves that soon when only two staves require B rank? And that's assuming that I'm using Niles over the long term, to which I say.... *more hysterical but honest laughter*

B rank staff not only lets you use B rank staff, but also C, D, and E rank staff, which have plenty of useful staff to chose from, plus gives +1 healing (the equivalent of +3 magic) and +5 staff accuracy (the equivalent of +2 skill on top of the effective +3 magic when using a staff). Why you would consider a high staff rank a bad thing I can not guess. As for using Niles long term, doing so gives you access to many well loved captured units like the rally bots of chapter 23 or pass fliers of chapter 24, and his high speed, skill, and access to bow knight makes him a great Ninja and Flier counter.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You wanna talk about doing your army a disservice? How about going for some half-assed gimmick just to be "unique" (AKA Wyvern Elise)? Because being unique does NOT mean being useful.

Maligknight Elise is useful. The most obvious places she would help is in chapter 21, but there are plenty of other places where the terrain would prevent magic users other than Maligknight from being able to help, and Elise is the easiest magic focused Maligknight you can get.

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8 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

As for using Niles long term, doing so gives you access to many well loved captured units like the rally bots of chapter 23 or pass fliers of chapter 24, and his high speed, skill, and access to bow knight makes him a great Ninja and Flier counter.

And not a single damn was given that day. I find his other stats anathematic, which leads to me considering Niles himself anathematic.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I find his other stats anathematic, which leads to me considering Niles himself anathematic.

Who are you suggesting become a Bow Knight then? Selena that will on average deal lower damage due to E rank bow, slightly lower average strength, and lower speed: Laslow that never passes Niles defense averages by more than 1, and is slow enough to needs tonics and meals (and probably a speed pairup too) to avoid being doubled by chapter 25 master ninja (whereas the same help can push Niles into doubling said master ninja instead, and even average Selena can accomplish that feat if she caps out), or god forbid are you claiming shining bow Nyx is a better choice.

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18 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Who are you suggesting become a Bow Knight then? Selena that will on average deal lower damage due to E rank bow, slightly lower average strength, and lower speed: Laslow that never passes Niles defense averages by more than 1, and is slow enough to needs tonics and meals (and probably a speed pairup too) to avoid being doubled by chapter 25 master ninja (whereas the same help can push Niles into doubling said master ninja instead, and even average Selena can accomplish that feat if she caps out), or god forbid are you claiming shining bow Nyx is a better choice.

Just do yourself a favor and ignore Levant when it starts ignoring math/common sense/established proof.

It's the responsible choice.

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1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Who are you suggesting become a Bow Knight then? Selena that will on average deal lower damage due to E rank bow, slightly lower average strength, and lower speed: Laslow that never passes Niles defense averages by more than 1, and is slow enough to needs tonics and meals (and probably a speed pairup too) to avoid being doubled by chapter 25 master ninja (whereas the same help can push Niles into doubling said master ninja instead, and even average Selena can accomplish that feat if she caps out), or god forbid are you claiming shining bow Nyx is a better choice.

I'm particularly fond of Nina, personally. I'm far from subtle about it - I much prefer female units, barring extreme circumstances (ergo, being really bad, like Nyx, whom I consider a bottom 3 unit. Or if the male in question has something so great it makes them worth a unit slot, like Xander. Or avatars, because with few exceptions, I prefer to play as a boy in relationship-heavy games, like this one). And I can trust Nina to not let me down, unlike her lousy old man, who I trust as much as Arthur - AKA, not one iota.

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And not a single damn was given that day. I find his other stats anathematic, which leads to me considering Niles himself anathematic.

NIles has shaky STR growth rates but its possible to compensate for getting STR screwed in several ways. He tends to get high speed and Res. As an Archer, he should never be attacked by the enemy or you placed him wrong. If his growths turn out ok then Niles can be a mage killer for you. My recent lunatic run he got completely screwed with multiple level ups with only 1 or 2 stat growth and he turned out very weak. I was still able to buff him enough to capture key units in my run regardless but it meant other units like Kaze and Mozu had to pull more weight.

Niles Growths 40% HP/45% STR/ 70% speed/ 60% Res

His growths are pretty good all things considered. I guess in my recent lunatic run he got exceptionally stat screwed.

Edited by wissenschaft
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12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And not a single damn was given that day. I find his other stats anathematic, which leads to me considering Niles himself anathematic.

You don't need to use Niles long term to capture valuable units - he has good enough bases and bow rank to deal at least 1 damage to any given capture target at base with BK promotion bonuses and Arthur pair up (C rank, possibly with no support but I would need to double check), except for shit like generals but I don't know why you would want to capture them anyway.

As to the rest of your points - you are flat-out ignoring the well-known information I used to supplement my argument so I will be taking @joshcja's advice.

Edited by De Geso
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