Weapon tier list?

[starburst]

Honestly, other than Nosferatu, I do not think about "Enemy-Phase weapons." I mean, in those occasions when I need to hold enemies for one or two turns, I focus on the defensive bonuses available to the unit and not on the weapon itself. Sure, I would not hand a sword to the unit that is going to face Ninjas, but there are not many options either: javelin or hand axe to the front-liners, bow or Calamity Gate to those in the second row. It is the auras, bonuses and survivability of the "tanks" that I focus on.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm of the mind that brave weapons are pretty lousy in this game. Sure, they can double against Wary Fighter units, but the problem is that in general, the units with Wary Fighter are the same ones with great defense (pretty much every enemy unit you see with Wary Fighter is a General), in addition to being vulnerable to effective weapons, and I'd find it better to get one solid hit in on those than two weaker hits. Not helping is the fact that aside from Lightning, they're A rank, meaning you likely have to go out of your way to be able to use them. On top of that, some of them have iffy accuracy.

[Lightcosmo]

11 hours ago, joshcja said:

Wait. The FE4 subforum discusses anything but mapsize? This is bloody pandemonium, cats and dogs living together, madness. That would be like the FE7 board taking a day off from discussing how viable Nino is.

Given the long, long walls of text you're using to say the equivilant of "plz no bully" it's fair to say that... nobody here is angry, you just don't get the joke.

To break this down into very simple terms...

The Fates forum is entirely composed of bored shiptoasters and Levant is a meme.

(I'm suspicious that this may be a LevAlt)

I'm sorry, where's the joke, exactly? All I see is you three being downright rude. You sound pretty angry to me. Your last line... ah, you couldn't be farther off, obviously it's you trying to justify your attitude toward me.

 

11 hours ago, De Geso said:

I'm not upset. Getting upset over Levant is a fool's game. I'm also not trying to change his views - but when someone outright denies facts, they are to be either refuted, mocked or ignored, and refutation has run its course.

I don't think you even needed to write out your second paragraph.

Using one FE game as a frame of reference to another has been done for a long time (among Japanese fans, probably since FE2 came out). You serious?

Again, why are you here to defend Levant if you know nothing about Fates nor the situation you're inserting yourself into? What is to be gained by you doing this? Your post history shows you are probably not an alt (unless you are that insane and dedicated), so what is it? Are you the fun police?

Sure, the three of you arent upset, let's just look at the latest posts and see what they say.

He doesnt agree with you, and you and everyone else make way to big a deal over it.

Paragraph 2, my point was saying a miss happens in FE is absurd, it's going to happen, obviously. I was saying you were right on that end, so I'm not sure what your saying, really.

I'm not defending anyone, also, again, you think I'm an alt like the others, so you really are ganging up on people, shocking! I'm not, in case you were curious, go look in the FE4 threads where I clearly debate with him about it, or would that be too much? You have fun making fun of people... that's just sad.

7 hours ago, starburst said:

I thought the same after my last message and pre-emptively hid his messages. Ha!

 

He is not? Shit! Too late, mate. Too late. 🙃

Here's another follower, what a surprise. Just fuel the fire here, thank you. Coincidence that you all say the same thing? I doubt it. But im not about to sink to your level, thankfully.

[joshcja]

So we all agree to ignore LevAlt's white knight ranting now right?

Edited August 24, 2019 by joshcja

[wissenschaft]

2 hours ago, joshcja said:

Aura stacking/dual strike is also a thing so just... swapping weapons via makes braves EP pretty not-an-issue.

Yeah I forgot too easily that you can just abuse attack stance dual strikes to make use of brave weapons. As for Nosferatu, is pretty nerf from awakening but Odin seems to make good use of it. Or Corrin if you make him a dark mage/witch.

Edited August 24, 2019 by wissenschaft

[De Geso]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

So we all agree to ignore LevAlt's white knight ranting now right?

Yeah, like I said about Levant, refutation has run its course.

33 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Yeah I forgot too easily that you can just abuse attack stance dual strikes to make use of brave weapons. As for Nosferatu, is pretty nerf from awakening but Odin seems to make good use of it. Or Corrin if you make him a dark mage/witch.

Odin, DM Corrin, Leo in his better class, really anyone not named Nyx who can reasonably use Nos with little investment is good with it. It isn't brainless like in 13 but you can say that about everything in Fates that was also in Awakening.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Boy this board became a mess while I was away.

Now there is another aspect to weapon uses to consider, their value as attack stance weapons. A lot of the downsides of weapons are ignored when used for an attack stance: debuffs like those caused by silver weapons do not trigger, the strength halving of weapons like the Crescent bow or Aurgelmir do not trigger (and in fact an attack stance hit can be used to clear the debuff away), even static stat decreases to otherwise important stats like defense and speed do not directly effect the attack stance hit, and thus can be either traded away after use or rendered harmless by blocking access. This opens up niches for those massively power weapons that have a defect that cripples either their Player phase, or Enemy Phase uses, plus it give more value to the brave effect for it is the only way two attack stance hits.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm not the only one that thinks the Kris Knife and Spellbane Yumi are bottom tier, am I? The former only has 9 effective might, which is awful, and it doesn't help that the enemies it's meant to be used on have good defense. The latter is effective against tomes and scrolls...which have WTA over it. It's rather inaccurate, too, which isn't helped by WTD.

[starburst]

9 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Now there is another aspect to weapon uses to consider, their value as attack stance weapons. A lot of the downsides of weapons are ignored when used for an attack stance: debuffs like those caused by silver weapons do not trigger, the strength halving of weapons like the Crescent bow or Aurgelmir do not trigger [...]

This is so very true. I even wish that certain weapons had Attack Stance bonuses. Say, a bow that "takes advantage of the situation" and deals a +5 damage or halves the AS damage reduction or gets a +10 % Critical Hit on AS. Or a bow that "rests ons a teammate's shoulder" and gets +20 % Accuracy or negates the AS Hit reduction.

Another example: While I firmly believe that hidden weapons should only get a +1 Might per forge, so that they are used mainly because of their de-buffs (and prevent things like a broken +Strength Ninja Cornflakes), I also think that they should not get might reduction on AS. These changes would reinforce their niche and still be "in-character."

There should also be more skills that take advantage of Attack Stance. From memory, I can only name that amiibo-class skill that increases damage when the unit is lands the secondary hit in AS, and Selena's skill that guarantees a critical hit whenever the main unit lands one. And the bonus of the former one is too low, and the use of the latter is situational at best (for the main critical hit would most likely kill the enemy anyway.)

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

There should also be more skills that take advantage of Attack Stance. From memory, I can only name that amiibo-class skill that increases damage when the unit is lands the secondary hit in AS, and Selena's skill that guarantees a critical hit whenever the main unit lands one. And the bonus of the former one is too low, and the use of the latter is situational at best (for the main critical hit would most likely kill the enemy anyway.)

Bold: You mean Dual Striker (which, by the way, the class that it's tied to is limited to one per file because we got screwed out of the DLC that would've allowed us to get multiple of the item that would've allowed access to the class in question)? In any instance, I think more skills that take advantage of attack stance would be nice - IIRC, there are more skills that require guard stance.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Alastor15243]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: You mean Dual Striker (which, by the way, is limited to one per file because we got screwed out of the DLC that would've allowed us to get multiple)?

Two per file. Lucina and whoever you give the DLC seal to.

[Shadow Mir]

19 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Two per file. Lucina and whoever you give the DLC seal to.

I would've mentioned Lucina, but getting her requires you have her amiibo, which, given that FE related amiibos tend to be rare... isn't a guarantee. And speaking of the DLC seal, it's a massive pain in the ass to get since at least one of your allies (specifically, Chrom or Lissa, but more likely the former) is bound to get themselves defeated due to Artificial Stupidity, more likely than not.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Alastor15243]

11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would've mentioned Lucina, but getting her requires you have her amiibo, which, given that FE related amiibos tend to be rare... isn't a guarantee. And speaking of the DLC seal, it's a massive pain in the ass to get since at least one of your allies (specifically, Chrom or Lissa, but more likely the former) is bound to get themselves defeated due to Artificial Stupidity, more likely than not.

Yeah, it isn't a map you can do slowly. You need to be really aggressive and prepared to kill a lot of enemies quickly or somebody is going to die.

[starburst]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, it isn't a map you can do slowly. You need to be really aggressive and prepared to kill a lot of enemies quickly or somebody is going to die.

I have "mastered" that map! He, he.

Since I like Velouria but I am neutral about Keaton and I do not like using "backpacks", I have used the Before Awakening several times to recruit her right after Chapter 14 and complete my party. Assuming that the parents got C Support within Ch 14, it takes six replays of Before Awakening to achieve S Support. I have completed it in 4 turns, but usually takes 6 turns to ensure that Keaton and his bride will get enough support points; and each replay lasts 4-5 minutes (no animations.) Apart from Keaton and his Tinder date, you will also want a bow user, a javelin user and a mount. A promoted Cornflakes also helps (as would Camilla, but I ban her for challenge --unless she is the mama.)

The real deal is getting to Velouria by Turn 3 or 4 while playing her map right after Ch 14, specially when none of your (ten) units is promoted and you have no fliers. Ha!

[FoxyGrandpa]

On 8/23/2019 at 7:12 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I'm of the mind that brave weapons are pretty lousy in this game. Sure, they can double against Wary Fighter units, but the problem is that in general, the units with Wary Fighter are the same ones with great defense (pretty much every enemy unit you see with Wary Fighter is a General), in addition to being vulnerable to effective weapons, and I'd find it better to get one solid hit in on those than two weaker hits. Not helping is the fact that aside from Lightning, they're A rank, meaning you likely have to go out of your way to be able to use them. On top of that, some of them have iffy accuracy.

Its been a while since I played the game, but I remember brave weapons being pretty good with guard stance since it immediately charged up the meter. I think in dual strike, it also gave your ally a psuedo brave effect as well, which seems extremely good.

Edited August 25, 2019 by FoxyGrandpa

[De Geso]

On 8/24/2019 at 11:26 PM, FoxyGrandpa said:

Its been a while since I played the game, but I remember brave weapons being pretty good with guard stance since it immediately charged up the meter. I think in dual strike, it also gave your ally a psuedo brave effect as well, which seems extremely good.

The second this isn't exactly true - if someone using a Brave weapon is your main unit's attack stance partner they will attack twice, but if the main unit is using a brave and the partner is not, they'll just attack once like normal.

You are right that braves are powerful in this game, mainly the axe and the Lightning tome.

Edited August 26, 2019 by De Geso

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/24/2019 at 10:26 PM, FoxyGrandpa said:

Its been a while since I played the game, but I remember brave weapons being pretty good with guard stance since it immediately charged up the meter. I think in dual strike, it also gave your ally a psuedo brave effect as well, which seems extremely good.

You're right about this. The issue I have is the A rank required for most of them - I often feel like I have to go out of my way to get an A rank in a weapon type. Well, that, and the accuracy issues attached to some of them *cough Brave Axe hack*. Aside from that, there's also the fact that most classes can only A rank one weapon type, which makes some of them (the Soldier's Knife and the Brave Axe, specifically) unlikely to see any use.

[Eltosian Kadath]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I often feel like I have to go out of my way to get an A rank in a weapon type. Well, that, and the accuracy issues attached to some of them *cough Brave Axe hack*

I would put it more that you need to go out of your way to A rank before the late game, you will probably have a couple of A ranks by the last 4-5 maps give or take. As for accuracy, things get more complicated if you have hits to spare, for example if you just need 2 hits and double the enemy, the brave weapon will have a higher success rate than a bronze if your bronze's final accuracy is roughly between 25 and 90, and that is with a base 25 less accuracy on the weapon, you start comparing it to iron or steel, and you find a fair number of situations where having spare hits leads to higher effective accuracy. I could go on with examples, but the core thing is that the brave effect can let you more effectively trade damage for accuracy, which has a lot of uses.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

the Soldier's Knife

This one especially, seeing as Kaze is the only one that has the option to use it in his base class for Conquest (Laslow and Shura are the only other with it available with heart seal), and I don't even think you get one in Birthright where it might actually see use. The Brave axe sees plenty of use if you field a Berserker, which are far more numerous in Conquest.

On 8/24/2019 at 3:09 AM, Shadow Mir said:

I'm not the only one that thinks the Kris Knife and Spellbane Yumi are bottom tier, am I? The former only has 9 effective might, which is awful, and it doesn't help that the enemies it's meant to be used on have good defense. The latter is effective against tomes and scrolls...which have WTA over it. It's rather inaccurate, too, which isn't helped by WTD.

Seems about right, especially seeing as unless you are facing the calamity gate, the Dual yumi has higher effective might and accuracy than the Spellbane yumi against magic.

 

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/26/2019 at 5:08 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Seems about right, especially seeing as unless you are facing the calamity gate, the Dual yumi has higher effective might and accuracy than the Spellbane yumi against magic.

Yeah. Which makes me wonder... what the hell were they thinking? The Axe Splitter, Pike-Ruin Club and Swordcatcher are all on the winning end of the weapon triangle against the weapons they're supposed to be used on, whereas the Spellbane Yumi forces you to go against the weapon triangle instead (with the exception of Calamity Gate, which isn't even that common)...

On 8/26/2019 at 5:08 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

I would put it more that you need to go out of your way to A rank before the late game, you will probably have a couple of A ranks by the last 4-5 maps give or take. As for accuracy, things get more complicated if you have hits to spare, for example if you just need 2 hits and double the enemy, the brave weapon will have a higher success rate than a bronze if your bronze's final accuracy is roughly between 25 and 90, and that is with a base 25 less accuracy on the weapon, you start comparing it to iron or steel, and you find a fair number of situations where having spare hits leads to higher effective accuracy. I could go on with examples, but the core thing is that the brave effect can let you more effectively trade damage for accuracy, which has a lot of uses.

Yeah, that sounds more accurate. As is, Ryoma, Xander, and Silas in Revelation, all of whom start with B rank and come about midway through the game, are about the only units that can feasibly get A rank before the end of the game, or at all really, without forcing me to go out of my way or use an Arms Scroll, which are limited. However, braves are unavailable on Birthright other than Snake Spirit, which suffers from the sorely lacking mage selection and spotty accuracy to boot.

On 8/26/2019 at 5:08 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

This one especially, seeing as Kaze is the only one that has the option to use it in his base class for Conquest (Laslow and Shura are the only other with it available with heart seal), and I don't even think you get one in Birthright where it might actually see use. The Brave axe sees plenty of use if you field a Berserker, which are far more numerous in Conquest.

The problem is, I find the Brave Axe's 55 base accuracy unacceptable (that's not that much better than the "Great" Club, which I always snark about because it's inaccurate to the point of unusability). It doesn't help that I find Camilla to be the only reliable axe unit in Conquest, period.

[deskita]

I'm surprised that the Venge weapons haven't been mentioned considering their high mt and accuracy with the only debuff being reduced evasion which is fine as it just leaves less up to chance. But I do admit they do come rather late and have high weapon rank requirements but they're definitely good for when they're available.

[joshcja]

1 hour ago, deskita said:

I'm surprised that the Venge weapons haven't been mentioned considering their high mt and accuracy with the only debuff being reduced evasion which is fine as it just leaves less up to chance. But I do admit they do come rather late and have high weapon rank requirements but they're definitely good for when they're available.

1-1 EP weapon's in birthroute are not really noteworthy.