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Weapon tier list?


Alastor15243
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44 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Does Ninja Corrin not count for anything? Oh and I suppose I do cheat by forging steel shuriken I buy from visits. Oops. lol

Come to think of it, 1-2 range is really punished in this game. Which is why the bolt axe is so awesome. One of the few 1-2 range weapons that doesn't have a downside. You just need to make sure the user has enough magic and speed to ORKO reliably.

This just brings me back to my original point. Its hard to say any weapon type is the best since what unit is using what weapon makes a very large difference in a weapon types effectiveness.

Have fun working with 2 might weapons. I dunno about you, but honestly, having my main character using 2 might weapons does not sound like my idea of fun. At all.

I think the bolt axe is awesome... in Awakening, that is, because you actually had units that could use it well without going out of your way to make it usable. In any other FE game it showed up in (including this one)? Good luck with that. You're gonna need it.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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50 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

The only issue is almost all of those characters don't start with access to axes and have to grind through E rank. Its certainly doable and effective but its just annoying that the units that start with axes have so many issues that cripple them.

Then your original statement, "Axes tend to be held back by the lack of good axe users", is rather unfair. For there are indeed good axe users in Conquest (high Skill, high Strength and natural or easy-to-acquire stack), but the early availability of axe users is limited: one only gets three or four of them in the first half of the game (by Ch 13.)

 

12 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Does Ninja Corrin not count for anything? Oh and I suppose I do cheat by forging steel shuriken I buy from visits. Oops. lol

I have never used Internet and my dagger users have no problem reaching their thresholds. A +1 Iron Knife and a Hunter's Knife are more than enough until very late in the game, when a +2 Iron Knife is easier to forge. If you are trying to one-hit enemies with daggers, you are using them wrong.

 

41 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Come to think of it, 1-2 range is really punished in this game. Which is why the bolt axe is so awesome. One of the few 1-2 range weapons that doesn't have a downside. You just need to make sure the user has enough magic and speed to ORKO reliably.

In addition to a -20 Avoid, the Bolt Axe cannot trigger skills or land critical hits. These may not be downsides for Elise, who would only participate in Player Phase and who lands one or two critical hits per campaign and has no natural access to offensive skills; but they are terrible downsides for magic users like Ophelia or Odin, who land seventy critical hits per campaign and who have natural access to offensive skills.

 

41 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

This just brings me back to my original point. Its hard to say any weapon type is the best since what unit is using what weapon makes a very large difference in a weapon types effectiveness.

But tomes are easily better than the rest; the great majority of enemies in Conquest have way lower Resistance than Defence. Lightning and Horse Spirit are ridiculously overpowered, and you also have Calamity Gate, Mjölnir and Nosferatu.
Then come axes and bows, which are used to delete enemy units on Player Phase.

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26 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Have fun working with 2 might weapons. I dunno about you, but honestly, having my main character using 2 might weapons does not sound like my idea of fun. At all.

I think the bolt axe is awesome... in Awakening, that is, because you actually had units that could use it well without going out of your way to make it usable. In any other FE game it showed up in (including this one)? Good luck with that. You're gonna need it.

Man I play conquest lunatic so different from other people. lol Ninja Corrin with strength boon can get strong enough to ORKO most enemies even on lunatic. It can be a tough start but raider knife is usable at rank E so thats might 3. lol

10 minutes ago, starburst said:

But tomes are easily better than the rest; the great majority of enemies in Conquest have way lower Resistance than Defence. Lightning and Horse Spirit are ridiculously overpowered, and you also have Calamity Gate, Mjölnir and Nosferatu.
Then come axes and bows, which are used to delete enemy units on Player Phase.

I suppose your right. I tend not to use mages much. Honestly, Corrin, Camilla, Xander, and Benny are my MVP. They can survive a swarm of enemies. Everyone else is one clean up duty. I suppose I should really try raising Odin as a Nos tank as well. Admittedly, I barely use mages in conquest. Bad habit.

Edited by wissenschaft
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5 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Man I play conquest lunatic different from other people. lol Ninja Corrin with strength boon can get strong enough to ORKO most enemies even on lunatic. It can be a tough start but raider knife is usable at rank E so thats might 3. lol

I generally prefer tomes because classes with decent defense have access to them, so I find in practice most of my enemy phase units use tomes.

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5 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I generally prefer tomes because classes with decent defense have access to them, so I find in practice most of my enemy phase units use tomes.

Come to think of it, the way I play conquest lunatic is player phase focused. I generally try to wipe out a whole group of enemies the turn they get in range of my units. So I bait a group with my tank (god bless Xander) and then during my active phase I slaughter everyone. I suppose it makes my lunatic runs slower than it needs to be but it works.

Edited by wissenschaft
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1 minute ago, wissenschaft said:

Man I play conquest lunatic different from other people. lol Ninja Corrin with strength boon can get strong enough to ORKO most enemies even on lunatic. It can be a tough start but raider knife is usable at rank E so thats might 3. lol

Just like my +Magic Nohr Noble Corrinette can solo maps with tomes from Ch 15 onwards, tanks Kitsunes with the Dragon Stone, one-hits Faceless with the Dragon Stone Plus, tanks the roof of Ch 23, defeats Ryoma with Mjölnir and tanks the south room of Ch 26... What Cornflakes can do is not representative of the class she is in. She is broken by design.

Master Ninjas Silas, Soleil and Laslow can indeed one-hit many enemies. Yet they are not used as your "typical" Ninja, but play the role of Snipers or Berserkers instead.

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15 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

Man I play conquest lunatic different from other people. lol Ninja Corrin with strength boon can get strong enough to ORKO most enemies even on lunatic. It can be a tough start but raider knife is usable at rank E so thats might 3. lol

I forgot about the Raider Knife, but its 3 might isn't much better, as I see it. Anyway, my preferred Corrin setup involves an HP boon for obvious reasons.

20 minutes ago, starburst said:

But tomes are easily better than the rest; the great majority of enemies in Conquest have way lower Resistance than Defence. Lightning and Horse Spirit are ridiculously overpowered, and you also have Calamity Gate, Mjölnir and Nosferatu.
 Then come axes and bows, which are used to delete enemy units on Player Phase.

I'm sorry, but I never saw tomes as half as good as you're hyping them up to be - this isn't Awakening, where they were head and shoulders above everything else. About the only stuff that has "way lower resistance than defense" tends to not show up that often, is not very threatening, has weaknesses, or a combination of these factors. And this is ignoring the poor overall quality of mages in this game.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Just now, wissenschaft said:

Come to think of it. The way I play conquest lunatic is player phase focused. I generally try to wipe out a whole group of enemies the turn they get in range of my units. So I bait a group with my tank (god bless Xander) and then during my active phase I slaughter everyone. I suppose it makes my lunatic runs slower than it needs to be but it works.

I player phase a lot too, especially to avoid ninja debuffs, but then shuriken lose a lot of their advantage over bows on player phase, don't they?

Really the only classes that have good defense caps and can use knives are Dread Fighter (DLC) and Mechanist (bad defensive growths). I generally much prefer Nohr Noble, Dark Knight and Malig Knight for my enemy phase tanking done by anyone but Xander.

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15 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I player phase a lot too, especially to avoid ninja debuffs, but then shuriken lose a lot of their advantage over bows on player phase, don't they?

Yeah but by ch 15 your promoting to master ninja and you regain the Yato, in which case you shall slaughter all archers. An alternative build is to pick samurai, go into that class first for vantage and then buddy seal Kaze to get into ninja. Theres an arms scroll in chapter 13 if you really want to skip E rank hell or you can forge bronze knives by that point. If you plan it right you can spend the minimum time in ninja and promote to master ninja asap.

By the time your invading hoshido you'll be close to max strength if not already and you shall be slaughtering enemies. The sky high skill growth means you have the best chance of activating Dragon Fang. Not to mention pretty good crit chance. 

Edited by wissenschaft
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1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

I tend not to use mages much. Honestly, Corrin, Camilla, Xander, and Benny are my MVP. They can survive a swarm of enemies. Everyone else is one clean up duty. I suppose I should really try raising Odin as a Nos tank as well. Admittedly, I barely use mages in conquest. Bad habit.

That is because, despite your saying otherwise, you rely heavily on Enemy Phase. My "tanks" are usually +Magic or +Speed Cornflakes and Silas, and I only use ten units per run and no pre-promotes (so, no Camilla, no Xander, no Leo, no Gunter...) Except in one section of Ch 26, I never have the need to "survive a swarm of enemies." My ten units take a position and then march forward killing all surrounding enemies in a single Player Phase. That is why high damage output and high Skill are key for most units in my party.

Give a read to these campaigns someday, you may like a new challenge.
https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/86249-anyone-wants-to-play-10-units-only-conquest/

 

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We have a pretty good bar for physical weapon usage in the form of Silias. Who is just default better with any weapon not an axe than their default user and Percy who is... Percy.

On the Magic side our best slide bars wind up being Elise and (G)ODin.

Edited by joshcja
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35 minutes ago, starburst said:

That is because, despite your saying otherwise, you rely heavily on Enemy Phase. My "tanks" are usually +Magic or +Speed Cornflakes and Silas, and I only use ten units per run and no pre-promotes (so, no Camilla, no Xander, no Leo, no Gunter...) Except in one section of Ch 26, I never have the need to "survive a swarm of enemies." My ten units take a position and then march forward killing all surrounding enemies in a single Player Phase. That is why high damage output and high Skill are key for most units in my party.

Give a read to these campaigns someday, you may like a new challenge.
https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/86249-anyone-wants-to-play-10-units-only-conquest/

 

Well, I guess I suck at the game. lol This is pretty much how I play all the fire emblem games. Tank draws enemies, rest of team swarms the group of enemies like hyenas. Thats part of the charm of conquest for me, I've beaten it more than once and I still have more to learn.

Edited by wissenschaft
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2 hours ago, joshcja said:

Damn youuuuuuuuuu

(His tome hand hungers)

Now you know whose jersey you should buy next. We are a select group. He, he.

 

1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

Well, I guess I suck at the game. lol This is pretty much how I play all the fire emblem games. Tank draws enemies, rest of team swarms the group of enemies like hyenas. Thats part of the charm of conquest for me, I've beaten it more than once and I still have more to learn.

It is just a different approach. I have beaten Conquest like twenty times, and I still have a lot to learn and a lot to enjoy.

Two truths: First, joshcja is a way better player. Give his unique takes a try. They are fun. Second, Three Houses's game-play is so boring in comparison to Conquest's that I have to wait until the Lunatic patch is released to give it (yet) another try.

Edited by starburst
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25 minutes ago, starburst said:

Now you know whose jersey you should buy next. We are a select group. He, he.

 

It is just a different approach. I have beaten Conquest like twenty times, and I still have a lot to learn and a lot to enjoy.

Two truths: First, joshcja is a way better player. Give his unique takes a try. They are fun. Second, Three Houses's game-play is so boring in comparison to Conquest's that I have to wait until the Lunatic patch is released to give it (yet) another try.

I know what you mean. I love the story of Three Houses but the gameplay is SO much better in Conquest. Just take the class system, its far more interesting in Fates with a lot of diverse builds and methods of beating the game. We shall see what lunatic mode is like in 3H but I fear it will be awakening rehashed. Enemy stats so high your forced to feed one unit all the experience to make a monster able to solo the game.

Edited by wissenschaft
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10 hours ago, starburst said:

Since you included "special" weapons, you could have also included the Barbarian Axe and the Sacrificial Knife (I am not sure about their English names.) While they take 30 % of the HP per use, they have very high might and excellent accuracy, which make them perfect for Enemy Phase. And since they cannot kill the user, 1 HP is just as useful as 40 HP.

And I am surprised that you did not include the Shining Bow, which is the preferred weapon for Anna and most Adventurers. Its high might make it useful even for units with average Magic.

The Hunter's Knife and specially the Hunter's Bow are overpowered as fuck, since their wielders will either one-hit or double every mounted unit in the game.

While one gets rid of Ninjas with Bows, Axes and Calamity Gate, Javelins (and their wielders) are your first choice to hold them back (well, those and Siegfried, but Xander is a hack.)

I do not know, I would simply pick an entirely different set of weapons.

i could have included more weapons, but then it would've become a way longer list, so i picked just the few ones i think stand out the most.

then again, one thing is taking their stats/bonuses as they are. another is including skill builds, wich give way more options and make some weapons more viable than before.

long story short: it all depends on playstyle. even Dual weapons can kill enemy units if used properly.

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10 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

I know what you mean. I love the story of Three Houses but the gameplay is SO much better in Conquest. Just take the class system, its far more interesting in Fates with a lot of diverse builds and methods of beating the game. We shall see what lunatic mode is like in 3H but I fear it will be awakening rehashed. Enemy stats so high your forced to feed one unit all the experience to make a monster able to solo the game.

The sad thing is, Three Houses is far better balanced than Conquest (and Fates in general) in terms of unit balance - the latter seems to have some balancing decisions that make me think that some key members of the dev team were on drugs when they came up with them. Like giving Elise Wyvern Rider as her Heart Seal class, for example. And Rinkah in general. Not to mention Arthur and Charlotte, both of whom are just as bad. Not to mention the other problem adults, of which there are many (I know the phrase is "problem children", but simply put, if you're a male and are not Corrin or Xander, the chance I give a damn about you is 0%).

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19 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The sad thing is, Three Houses is far better balanced than Conquest (and Fates in general) in terms of unit balance - the latter seems to have some balancing decisions that make me think that some key members of the dev team were on drugs when they came up with them. Like giving Elise Wyvern Rider as her Heart Seal class, for example.

Malig Knight.

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1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Malig Knight.

Still doesn't make it a great idea in my book, given how Malig Knight is naught but a woeful, sad, pitiful afterthought of a class.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Just now, Shadow Mir said:

Still doesn't make it a great idea in my book, given how Malig Knight is naught but a woeful, sad, pitiful afterthought of a class.

It's a class with good defensive stats, magic, and flight. What are your standards for a good class?

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Still doesn't make it a great idea in my book, given how Malig Knight is naught but a woeful, sad, pitiful afterthought of a class.

I've used Malig knight Camilla plenty to beat conquest Lunatic. For an awful class it sure is effective. Though that might just be Camilla being awesome with a Bolt Axe.

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10 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

It's a class with good defensive stats, magic, and flight. What are your standards for a good class?

Not being an inferior option for 99.9% of units that can get it (hi there Oni Chieftain, Basara, and Malig Knight; simply put, if you're blatantly slanted towards one or the other, you have no use for a hybrid class. Malig Knight and Oni Chieftain are especially bad about this thanks to the wonderful combination of axes and tomes, and it doesn't help that both of those come from physically aligned classes), not having any nasty downsides (why hello there Berserker).

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12 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not being an inferior option for 99.9% of units that can get it (hi there Oni Chieftain, Basara, and Malig Knight; simply put, if you're blatantly slanted towards one or the other, you have no use for a hybrid class. Malig Knight and Oni Chieftain are especially bad about this thanks to the wonderful combination of axes and tomes, and it doesn't help that both of those come from physically aligned classes), not having any nasty downsides (why hello there Berserker).

So if I'm following your line of reasoning, Malig Knight is bad for Elise because people who aren't Elise have better options?

Edited by Alastor15243
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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The sad thing is, Three Houses is far better balanced than Conquest (and Fates in general) in terms of unit balance - the latter seems to have some balancing decisions that make me think that some key members of the dev team were on drugs when they came up with them. Like giving Elise Wyvern Rider as her Heart Seal class, for example. And Rinkah in general. Not to mention Arthur and Charlotte, both of whom are just as bad. Not to mention the other problem adults, of which there are many (I know the phrase is "problem children", but simply put, if you're a male and are not Corrin or Xander, the chance I give a damn about you is 0%).

I don't agree with that at all. The class balance is terrible in Three Houses. It heavily favors the mounted units. Now, the characters themselves may well be more viable as a whole then those in conquest but thats a different matter than the classes themselves. For example, in conquest dark mage isn't a terrible class so much as the only gen 1 dark mages we have are quite flawed. The same with Arthur and Charlotte, their class isn't the issue so much as their stat flaws.

Edited by wissenschaft
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