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Etrurian emperor

Lets talk about the villains *Spoilers*

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as far as villains go

 

twsitd are wholly unsatisfactory

in edelgards route they talk about how after everything is over they will finish off twsitd.

and instead of giving us a part3 campaign.

they are a footnote in the epilogue.

halfway though gd right now and im not sure what to think yet.

i still prefer edelgards pov but i need to know more about the world.

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4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I mean, writing is subjective, so I absolutely agree on that front.

I'm talking shit about Awakening's(And Fates') writing in comparison to FETH's. But I should probably be more upfront that I'm not trying to state any of the things I say, other than the things that absolutely happen in the context of the games, are fact. Just my opinions. That kind of got lost after my original post in this thread.

I will admit I did get a little carried in my argument as well so I apologize for that but still the fact that the villains are able to get away with so much in those titles is explained relatively well within the context of their respective narratives you just gotta look for it. The line between objectivity and subjectivity in regards to story telling is an extremely fine line but it exists. Like I said judge a story for what it's trying to be and the message it wants to tell. Not the story you think it should tell cause you shouldn't criticize something for what it's not nor what it was never trying to be. 

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

 Also there's another problem with the argument. A character taking an action you don't agree with IS NOT bad writing. It just means you don't agree with it and that's fine but it isn't bad writing. It's only bad writing if the action doesn't make sense within the context of the character which in this case it does make some kind of sense as far as I can tell anyway.

Agreed with this. A lot of times people say they don't agree with certain characters including my fave so they claim bad writing even though it really isn't. Also going by your sig, it seems like you too are writing character analysis just like me. 

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It's going to be a long, painful journey to undo the tropes that IS have trapped themselves with over the past three decades, and the Contractually Obligated Ugly Villains are an embodiment of that. Like much of the cruft that exists in the series, they exist because "that's how we've always done things". It is a series bogged down in dogma and unfortunately (partially) handing over the reins to a different company has done little to change that.

That's not to say there's been no progress - after all, the previous game literally had white kingdom vs dark kingdom. But what happened in 3H is a result of fear - an unwillingness to create a story with no explicit villain for people to unite against.

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^Julius, Lyon and Berkut are hot. Also not every lord cares about the ugly cult. And there is no Rev route yet.

The random chapter bosses actually have connection. To the characters if you play all the routes. So there definitely better then the random generals of the week from Awakening. None of them are as great a heel villain as Slayde was the best 3ds era side villain no one talks about despite matching the themes of the Duma and Mila ideology clashes perfectly. Randolf and his sister where great foils. Tomas at least spent a lot of time with Cluade. Rhea is a million times better then water clone Garon.

There's no metaphorical big bad either like the 3ds eras love for force of nature big bads. The Flame emperor and Rhea are better excuted then every 3ds era antagonist though. I don't see how there inferior to 3ds era villains at all.

Edited by Julian Solo
Grammar

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Yeah, I have to say the main antagonist is whatever faction you are against. This game is very much a difference of ideals more than anything with each route to made to be sympathetic towards the side you join. Much of the drama is simply instigated by a few nefarious factions. 

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Well, having only played BL and being right on the cusp of the time skip in GD, the only real villain to have an opinion on is Edelgard.

TWSITD are half gone before the Skip even happens. While there were some good surprises I guess with them being members of the church in disguise, they just get killed off a bit too quickly to have a real lasting impact. Even Kronya having killed Jeralt and infiltrated the school itself dies shortly after that. You'd think she'd be more relevant but she's just not. Solon at least gets more screentime but not much. Thales outlives them but...that's also about it, there's not much to say about him as a character.

The Flame Emperor and Death Knight, while more intriguing, also don't last all that long to make a lasting impression. Death Knight specifically may have more to him in the BE Route, but as of now, he's just kinda there for me and meant to be intimidating but you can literally ignore him on almost every map he's a villain on. Flame Emperor obviously had a bigger impact but I wish she remained masked for just a bit longer.

On her own, well, Edelgard is unquestionably a good villain in that she certainly makes it incredibly easy to hate her, but part of the reason why she's so easily hatable is because of how hypocritical she is in her actions. I would have found her less flawed if it seemed her goal was something I could morally get behind, but she causes so much needless death with absolutely no remorse for it, while perpetuating the very things she claims to hate about the church, that it's hard to see her perspective as valid. It just seems like everything is okay as long as she's doing it. Maybe her route or TSGD will shed some light on that, but as of now, that's what I got on her~

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4 hours ago, Humanoid said:

That's not to say there's been no progress - after all, the previous game literally had white kingdom vs dark kingdom. But what happened in 3H is a result of fear - an unwillingness to create a story with no explicit villain for people to unite against.

How is that fear? Looks to me the devs might've for once sincerely listened to the fans and tried to avoid the problems Fates' plot had (namely, Anankos).

 

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24 minutes ago, Eryon said:

How is that fear? Looks to me the devs might've for once sincerely listened to the fans and tried to avoid the problems Fates' plot had (namely, Anankos).

 

Fear of how not having Obvious Villain would be received. Then again, perhaps they were right: you only need to look so far as the Edelgard thread here to see the desire to find a villain instead of accepting that in some conflicts there may be none. It seems to me that there would be a fully-functioning narrative without the addition of said obvious villains, but perhaps that was a step too far outside their comfort zone. At times it may seem they only exist to deflect blame towards.

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When it comes to topic of Agarthans, I think calling them bad villains because they are the most evil faction(I mean they are entirely driven by vengeance and desire to be supreme) is bit missing the appeal of them.

I mean, they are the ancient civilization of technologically advanced subterranean humans who kill and replace important political figures and have so infiltrated war and wide empire and other nations in order to plan their grand conspiracy and experiments.

They are basically mole people conspiracy and that is hilariously awesome 😛 They aren't supposed to be morally complex even if they have understandable motivation for their vengeance, they are supposed to be "Oh hey, we are fighting evil ancient conspiracy theory, cool". Its kind of same feeling as "Oh, hey, we are now fighting army of dragons, that is cool"

And on Death Knight: You only learn who he is if you have Caspar and Mercedes in post time skip party and do their paralogue, which unlocks extra CGI on Blue Lions route when Death Knight finally dies. It doesn't really explain the details of why he is so crazy, but as I said, he isn't exactly a deep character, he is basically the bloodthirsty brute general villain type.

Edited by MaskedMaskoftheMasks

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I honestly believe it depends on the route you take.  It's my understanding that those who slither are more fleshed out in golden deer, and I'd bet that eldegard seems more sympathetic in black eagles route.

Death knight was written horribly, wasted potential.

I will say this though, I had Thomas pegged from the first meeting.  Something about his large for head just straight up said evil to me.

Edited by Wolfen09

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Do the Slithers possess corpses?

The reason I ask this is that if they were just shapeshifters or masters of disguise, they could cause a lot of chaos by imitating bigger key players without having to kill them, just going one-off jobs.

Also, they look like degenerated versions of the 'original' when they reveal themselves.

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You know Seteth suggested on the Golden Deer route at least that Tomas and Monica were killed and replaced especially since Monica’s personality did a 180 upon her rescue according to any who knew her. I wonder if we will get more on these and the death knight in the story expansion free update?

 

edit: also Thales only saved Kronya from Byleth to protect the secret of their bodies...

Edited by iavasechui

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17 hours ago, Gregster101 said:

Nah, I still consider the Fates villains to be worse

Fates has the most tragic and sympathetic villain in the entire series in Takumi. Takumi was the only character in that entire game who accurately understood how shitty the writing in that game was, and was so upset by it that he went on a killing spree and attempted to kill all the shitty characters created by the evil of bad writers and a lazy English localization team. I was so invested in his attempt to take out the trash that I was genuinely moved to tears when he finally died. 

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I wonder about "Those Who Slither In The Dark." (Note: I only played Edelgard's Empire route and am in middle of Blue Lions, so I may not have the whole picture). Specifically, how long have they been planning everything? We know they can apparently shapeshift, and this is what I am most curious about.

For each TWSITD member, it seems that their "host" suddenly changes.

Thales / Arundel - Suddenly stops making donations to the church, returns to the Empire after the Tragedy of Duscar. (Thales might be the long con, but I'm not sure. The reason for this is because what they end up doing to Edelgard, and I'm don't remember Arundel's past.)

Cornelia - Cures the Kingdom's plague problems and is elevated to a higher position. Was kind and merciful, then suddenly had a personality change. (Not a confirmed shapeshifter, but I think it is a high possibility).

Monica / Kronya - Missing student from one year ago, returns with a drastic and "fake?" personality. This one is obviously confirmed for shapeshifting, which leaves the question of what happened to the original.

Tomas / Solon - Loyal monk leaves the monastery for an extended period and comes back "relatively?" the same. I remember Lysithea saying that she has no recollection of Tomas visiting her family's territory while he was away, making me wonder of Tomas was replaced during this timeframe. We know he is a shapeshifter, it's just the matter of "when."

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1 hour ago, iavasechui said:

You know Seteth suggested on the Golden Deer route at least that Tomas and Monica were killed and replaced especially since Monica’s personality did a 180 upon her rescue according to any who knew her. I wonder if we will get more on these and the death knight in the story expansion free update?

 

edit: also Thales only saved Kronya from Byleth to protect the secret of their bodies...

I didn't really like this explanation. It takes a bit away from the characters I find. Thomas actually being up to no good and scheming for years, or Monica being so insane because her kidnappers tortured and ''trained'' her into acting this way sounds a lot more interesting. I suppose it does have its uses. Those who Slither being shapeshifters does give them the unnerving ability to be just about everyone after having murdered the original. 

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I find interesting that Kronya is the only one of the slithers that doesn't have magic prophet eyes... In fact her eyes looks very similar to the actual Monica. And she doesn't seem to have real attachment to the Agarthan Cause; mostly just following Thales and having crazy fun.

She doesn't have the same spirit to actually accept dying for the cause, unlike Solon that prefers to fight until the end after his plan failed.

Edited by Troykv

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12 minutes ago, Sire said:

I wonder about "Those Who Slither In The Dark." (Note: I only played Edelgard's Empire route and am in middle of Blue Lions, so I may not have the whole picture). Specifically, how long have they been planning everything? We know they can apparently shapeshift, and this is what I am most curious about.

For each TWSITD member, it seems that their "host" suddenly changes.

Thales / Arundel - Suddenly stops making donations to the church, returns to the Empire after the Tragedy of Duscar. (Thales might be the long con, but I'm not sure. The reason for this is because what they end up doing to Edelgard, and I'm don't remember Arundel's past.)

Cornelia - Cures the Kingdom's plague problems and is elevated to a higher position. Was kind and merciful, then suddenly had a personality change. (Not a confirmed shapeshifter, but I think it is a high possibility).

Monica / Kronya - Missing student from one year ago, returns with a drastic and "fake?" personality. This one is obviously confirmed for shapeshifting, which leaves the question of what happened to the original.

Tomas / Solon - Loyal monk leaves the monastery for an extended period and comes back "relatively?" the same. I remember Lysithea saying that she has no recollection of Tomas visiting her family's territory while he was away, making me wonder of Tomas was replaced during this timeframe. We know he is a shapeshifter, it's just the matter of "when."

Lysithiea on Blue Lion route post his defeat comments on Arundel's personalty going drastic change into cruel direction so it does seem like Arundel was replaced.

Tomas' personality is the biggest question mark since most of monastery staff we meet weren't there before his break, so its both possible Solon was much better actor or that as mild mannered librarian nobody just knew them that well

Edited by MaskedMaskoftheMasks

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21 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I didn't really like this explanation. It takes a bit away from the characters I find. Thomas actually being up to no good and scheming for years, or Monica being so insane because her kidnappers tortured and ''trained'' her into acting this way sounds a lot more interesting. I suppose it does have its uses. Those who Slither being shapeshifters does give them the unnerving ability to be just about everyone after having murdered the original. 

Thomas had a rushed relationship with nerdy Cluade though. And that Monica thing would just be a retread of the Flame Emperor twist.

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31 minutes ago, Sire said:

Thales / Arundel - Suddenly stops making donations to the church, returns to the Empire after the Tragedy of Duscar. (Thales might be the long con, but I'm not sure. The reason for this is because what they end up doing to Edelgard, and I'm don't remember Arundel's past.)

With Arundel there's the same interesting question as with Ganon. Was their previous evil acts also that of their evil impostors or were their original versions also really evil. 

Its possible Thales overthrew Edelgards father, tortured Edelgard and tortured all of Edelgard's siblings to death. Its also possible that was all on the real Arundel and Thales killed him after he did all that. 

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3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

With Arundel there's the same interesting question as with Ganon. Was their previous evil acts also that of their evil impostors or were their original versions also really evil. 

Its possible Thales overthrew Edelgards father, tortured Edelgard and tortured all of Edelgard's siblings to death. Its also possible that was all on the real Arundel and Thales killed him after he did all that. 

Well we can figure one thing out at least:
Arundel secreted Edelgard way to Kingdom and then when he stopped donating to church and started planning Tragedy of Duscar, he suddenly secreted Edelgard back to Empire.

So its possibly that original Arundel wanted Edelgard away from kingdom, maybe to avoid her being part of crest experiments or for some other political reason.

But yeah, its really hard to say which one was done by real Arundel and which wasn't

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20 hours ago, Ephidiel said:

as far as villains go

 

twsitd are wholly unsatisfactory

in edelgards route they talk about how after everything is over they will finish off twsitd.

and instead of giving us a part3 campaign.

they are a footnote in the epilogue.

halfway though gd right now and im not sure what to think yet.

i still prefer edelgards pov but i need to know more about the world.

You are 100% right about the need for a part 3 campaign. Really focusing on getting rid of TWSITD. That's probably my main gripe with the Crimson path

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TWISTD honestly should not have been included in the story. They ruin the dynamic of the Three Houses, and introduce more questions than answers. Every single plot hole or out of character action is due to their involvement. Its almost as if they had the script for the story, then some higher up said "I don't get it where is Gharnef 17.0?"

Their actions being performed by Edelgard's father / uncle / past emperors would have made a cleaner story. Her (reluctant) siding with TWISTD for 99.9% of the story despite the horrible things they did to her still does not make any sense when you put any level of critical thought into it.

If it was her uncle / father / corrupt nobles of the empire who did these acts, it would make far more sense for her to still side with the Empire, fix the "corrupt" church system, then fix her corrupt country.

Edited by IzzyFresh

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I'm in the middle of my first play-through with the blue lions, so I'm not familiar with all the story beats, but based on what I've played and few spoilers I've read of other routes, I find most of the villans in this game to be very captivating compared to most other fire emblem games. 

One thing about three houses is that the player's actions directly influence whether or not certain student's become antagonist. For example, in the Blue Lions' route, the player is ultimately responsible for helping Dimitri see the right path following Rodriguez's death. However, in other path's Dimitri stays a bloodthirsty monster (according to a few things I've read online anyways) and dies an unceremonious death. The game shows us that our role as professor is important rather than telling us. While the execution isn't perfect, it still helps makes  the student antagonist more tragic since we, as the player, know that the outcome would have been different had we managed our time differently or chose a different house. Ultimately, just like life, we can't fix all these problems at once.

I find a lot of the one-off villains to be pretty solid and sympathetic as well. Lonota and Makalov have deep and developed backstories thanks to their connections with characters like Ashe and Sylvainn, respectively, and while neither has much impact or does much during the story, they still come across as tragic characters. Fleche and Randolph are also pretty good villans despite not doing much either. Both are portrayed as kind, but are unfortunately on the opposite side of the war as the main characters. When Dimitri taunts Randolph before his death, he become's the very thing he swore to destroy, making Fleche's desire for revenge understandable. What I like about Fleche is, despite being a relatively insignificant character in the grand scheme of things, she's ultimately the main catalyst that brings Dimitri back to his senses, as they're goals were quite similar.

TWSITD is a mixed bag. On one hand, I dislike that they are the obvious bad guys in this story and are filled with mostly one note characters with no personal motivation. On the other hand, compared to all the generic bad-guy religious groups in past fire emblem games like the Grimleal and Duma Faithful, this one probably the best execution of the concept. Their presence within the story truly has a fair amount of mystery since they don't show themselves very often and their role as mole people makes the player ask questions in a good way. Was Cornelia always evil, or did she get secretly killed and replaced by a member of TWSITD? Was house Arundel created intentionally to cause political chaos, or did the real members of the housejust get replaced? It adds an interesting layer to the story that makes the player more invested, I feel.

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