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Thorough discussion of the entire story and characters


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3 minutes ago, Tribute said:

Having just got to the Blue Lion time skip on NG+, I'll always be a Black Eagle purist.

 

But Edel's route definitely just shafted dimitri and made him a bland pawn for Rhea. Blue Lions route time skip makes him a proper crazy murder hobo

If I may add something irrelevant - don't come and kill me - Dimitri without an eyepatch is MILES better. The eyepatch is just so stupid and out of place, the longer hair, heavy eyes and black armour are more than enough to convey the transformation, making him the captain from Spongebob doesn't add anything.

But yeah, I agree with @Spectrum, people like to treat Edelgard as a villain, but she has a (mostly) rational revolutionary process going on, with a very honorable goal. Dimitri basically uses his position as king to get his personal revenge, that's much worse if you ask me. And I'm not saying he's not a good character, I truly like him, but I can't understand why there aren't 1000 topics about his actions like with Edelgard.

If I had to make a villain->good list it'd be TWSITD, Rhea, Dimitri, Edelgard, ... , Claude. The first is obviously the big villain and I'd say Rhea as well is mostly evil unless you play Church (and even then...). Dimitri and Edelgard are gray, but again, she's got honorable reasons and at least some rationality, he lets himself be driven by emotion. Which is understandably his character arc, but as a king that's just completely wrong. Claude is mostly good, though he is more of an observer, which is also the best thing about him and GD as a whole.

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I don't know man Edelgard just kinda lets the Slitherers run around until she's ready to kill them in the epilogue. And then even before that, she hides bandits to attack Dimitri and Claude. I don't think Edelgard is a bad character but she makes a much better antagonist than main lord. Also, why didn't Edelgard just kill Rhea on the non-BE routes?

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34 minutes ago, timon said:

If I may add something irrelevant - don't come and kill me - Dimitri without an eyepatch is MILES better. The eyepatch is just so stupid and out of place, the longer hair, heavy eyes and black armour are more than enough to convey the transformation, making him the captain from Spongebob doesn't add anything. 

But yeah, I agree with @Spectrum, people like to treat Edelgard as a villain, but she has a (mostly) rational revolutionary process going on, with a very honorable goal. Dimitri basically uses his position as king to get his personal revenge, that's much worse if you ask me. And I'm not saying he's not a good character, I truly like him, but I can't understand why there aren't 1000 topics about his actions like with Edelgard.

If I had to make a villain->good list it'd be TWSITD, Rhea, Dimitri, Edelgard, ... , Claude. The first is obviously the big villain and I'd say Rhea as well is mostly evil unless you play Church (and even then...). Dimitri and Edelgard are gray, but again, she's got honorable reasons and at least some rationality, he lets himself be driven by emotion. Which is understandably his character arc, but as a king that's just completely wrong. Claude is mostly good, though he is more of an observer, which is also the best thing about him and GD as a whole.

I'm a massive defender of Edelgard. It's just a minor nitpick that she seems to come off as fundamentally the same as she does in BE even when you're against her.

Black Eagles just has Dimitri as squeaky clean boring good guy who's listening to Rhea because thats just what you do. I wish you got to see more of murder hobo Dimitri that cares as much about taking out Edelgard to settle a grudge as he does because its "The right thing to do" from other peoples perspective.

BE!Dimitri has some moments where he feels almost like he doesn't think the revolution is entirely wrong, so much as its just dirty enough that he won't break rank.

BL route makes it clear that he actually has a personal stake in things and part of him views this as more of an excuse to do what he wanted to do anyway, and kill her.

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Okay so I won't be adding my two cents on the overall story until I've finished playing all the routes(Finished GD almost done with BL) but major question to those who are willing to answer:  what seems to be the major overarching theme or message of this story? The core central idea that ties everything together. As far as I can tell the overall theme seems to center around the idea of independence and unity as well as staying true to oneself. Cause when you think about it all three lords' goals/arcs all seem to revolve around unity in some way. Claude wants to unite Foldlan with Almyra and end that discrimination. Dimitri's arc seems to be about fighting for what you believe rather than what other people believe in. Cause he wants revenge for the sake of those that he saw killed and he constantly says he's doing it for their sake but in the end he's not fighting for himself and his own beliefs but rather the beliefs of others. He's not truly independent in that sense. While I can't speak much for Edelgard(as I have not started black eagles yet), she does seem to fit into that theme from what little I do know of her. But those are just my thoughts

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2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay so I won't be adding my two cents on the overall story until I've finished playing all the routes(Finished GD almost done with BL) but major question to those who are willing to answer:  what seems to be the major overarching theme or message of this story? The core central idea that ties everything together. As far as I can tell the overall theme seems to center around the idea of independence and unity as well as staying true to oneself. Cause when you think about it all three lords' goals/arcs all seem to revolve around unity in some way. Claude wants to unite Foldlan with Almyra and end that discrimination. Dimitri's arc seems to be about fighting for what you believe rather than what other people believe in. Cause he wants revenge for the sake of those that he saw killed and he constantly says he's doing it for their sake but in the end he's not fighting for himself and his own beliefs but rather the beliefs of others. He's not truly independent in that sense. While I can't speak much for Edelgard(as I have not started black eagles yet), she does seem to fit into that theme from what little I do know of her. But those are just my thoughts

The main theme that I've seen is essentially just "what kind of selfishness can really help the world?" left up to the player to answer. Every route is essentially the lord's (or Rhea's) own selfish reasons leading them to do things that they believe would improve both the world and their lives. And perhaps that selfishness does lead to positive results. It's essentially a deconstruction and reconstruction of the "humans are inherently good" thesis of psychology. No, humans aren't inherently good as in they don't inherently want to do things with no benefit to themselves, but yes, humans are inherently good as they'll choose a path they believe can benefit others as well as themselves when they have the opportunity to. It's fascinating, imo. 

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2 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

The main theme that I've seen is essentially just "what kind of selfishness can really help the world?" left up to the player to answer. Every route is essentially the lord's (or Rhea's) own selfish reasons leading them to do things that they believe would improve both the world and their lives. And perhaps that selfishness does lead to positive results. It's essentially a deconstruction and reconstruction of the "humans are inherently good" thesis of psychology. No, humans aren't inherently good as in they don't inherently want to do things with no benefit to themselves, but yes, humans are inherently good as they'll choose a path they believe can benefit others as well as themselves when they have the opportunity to. It's fascinating, imo. 

hmm that's an interesting way to think about it that I didn't consider but it makes sense. Hopefully when I've fully finished the game and have had some to think it'll become more but yeah selfishness seems to also be a pretty big running theme throughout most of the story.

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54 minutes ago, 0 Def Cleric said:

The main theme that I've seen is essentially just "what kind of selfishness can really help the world?" left up to the player to answer. Every route is essentially the lord's (or Rhea's) own selfish reasons leading them to do things that they believe would improve both the world and their lives. And perhaps that selfishness does lead to positive results.

I think you have abused the concept of "selfishness". Having self integrity or believing in an ideal is not equivalent to being selfish.

Being selfish means you put your personal interest above the the interest of others.

Having self integrity means you are true to yourself, i.e., act according to your own will not others (whether selfish or selfless).

Having an ideal often time means you are willing to sacrifice your self interest in order to realize/act according to the ideal (public interest, may be non-consensual).

Self interests are benefits and gains related with individual identity, i.e. wealth, fame, glory, or even integrity or moral superiority. Making the world a better place may be a personal goal, but is it not a selfish goal. It is selfish to seek personal gratification in the name of making the world a better place. The goal itself is objective in the sense of being based on social consensus.

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1 hour ago, matchalatte said:

I think you have abused the concept of "selfishness". Having self integrity or believing in an ideal is not equivalent to being selfish.

Being selfish means you put your personal interest above the the interest of others.

Having self integrity means you are true to yourself, i.e., act according to your own will not others (whether selfish or selfless).

Having an ideal often time means you are willing to sacrifice your self interest in order to realize/act according to the ideal (public interest, may be non-consensual).

Self interests are benefits and gains related with individual identity, i.e. wealth, fame, glory, or even integrity or moral superiority. Making the world a better place may be a personal goal, but is it not a selfish goal. It is selfish to seek personal gratification in the name of making the world a better place. The goal itself is objective in the sense of being based on social consensus.

I mean, the whole point of what I was saying is that the lords and Rhea don't actually want to make the world a better place (according to their own ideals) for the sake of making it a better place. Edelgard is the closest to that, but her vision of the world that she thinks of as "better" largely stems from her wanting to make peace with her own childhood trauma. Dimitri obviously wants to stop Mad Emperor Edelgard for his own revenge fantasy first and foremost, as opposed to just making the world a safer place for those involved with the Church. Rhea wants to bring the goddess back to the world to soothe her own loneliness, not to help grant the prayers of the people. Claude wants to end the feud between Fodlan and Almyra because of his personal ties to Almyra. 

Making the world a better place certainly isn't a selfish goal! But when you do so as a byproduct of assuaging your own troubles, that is what makes it a selfish goal. The point of what I was saying is that selfishness in and of itself does not make a goal any less noble, as long as you execute it well. At least, that's 3H's philosophy.

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The Knights of Seiros are an op army of the church that rival the three nations that's revealed in the Black Eagles route. Any student that has them plus Byleth if you side with that house.

With all Cluades resources he should auto win the time skip xD. Plus the racism is in word only. It was pretty pointless. Golden Deer feels like an after thought compared to the other routes.

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I thought the overarching theme was: Nothing is ever what it seems. Theres good and bad in everyone, and choices are what determine the outcome. Do you choose to cut a bloody swath in order to liberate the world? Or do you choose to be consumed by vengeance and wish things could just go back to the way it was when you were happy? Or do you choose to find out just why the world is the way it is, and strive to knock down societal walls? Finally, do you choose to find your own identity and why you were put in the world and what that means? 

/shrug 

that was my takeaway from this game's story and i gotta say, i really love it. I finally got what i wanted in an FE game. 

 

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Something I found strange is that the GD and Church route open up a bit of a plot hole in Edelgard's route. In those two routes, TWSITD blow up Fort Merceus with missiles in an attempt to kill off Byleth. Hubert somehow uses this information to locate their base and pass on the information to you through a letter in the event that the empire loses. Why doesn't he do this in Crimson Flower? If they attempted to justify not attacking them until after defeating Rhea and Dimitri, that would be one thing. However, it just isn't brought up at all. And even if it had been, at this point I think eliminating the mole people is pretty important when they have just used a WMD on your army without warning and while delivering a vague threat of more in the future.

From Edelgard's perspective, there is no way to know whether they have more or even how long it takes to launch. If TWSITD wanted to, they could have used a few on Fhirdiad in the final chapter, as the other routes clearly display that the Agarthans have more missiles when Thales attempts to destroy Shambala. Wiping out Rhea and Edelgard at the same time would lead to the Agarthans essentially winning, which is literally the worst possible outcome. Edelgard and Hubert should both be smart enough to know that TWSITD would like nothing more than to get rid of her at the earliest possible opportunity, but they don't mention that the best time to do that would be when they finally reach Fhirdiad. The only way I can see to fix this so that there would be consistency across the routes is for Hubert to locate Shambala as usual. Edelgard tells the Black Eagle Strike Force the truth, and they go to Shambala. Since other routes imply that the missiles can't be launched easily, a quick counterattack should stop Thales' attempts to destroy them along with Shambala. This has the added benefit of extending Crimson Flower's playtime, something which it lacks compared to other routes. The conflict between TWSITD and Edelgard is resolved within the route, avoiding the lackluster epilogue that just says "we beat them." 

On another note, I agree that for almost its entirety, the church route feels like a watered down version of the Golden Deer route. The main issue is that Byleth isn't a compelling enough character to become the main focus of an entire route. Byleth shines when they act as a second-in-command to the lords and helps fulfill their ambitions. In Silver Snow, there is no one like that, so Byleth becomes the lord and Seteth becomes your second-in-command (but he isn't force-deployed). The problem is that Seteth drives the plot as the lord does in other routes, with the occasional aid of Flayn. Seteth is a great character in a supporting role, but he doesn't have any sort of higher motivation besides defeating Edelgard and finding Rhea. Since it reuses the plot of Golden Deer so heavily, this makes the route feel redundant in comparison. Flayn and Seteth The only major difference before the end is that it lacks the Battle at Gronder Field, but that leads to one of the strangest scenes in the route. Supposedly, Dimitri is dead and Claude is MIA after the battle, but then there's a random scene where Dimitri shows up in Garreg Mach. He is extremely cryptic and says almost nothing before Byleth either passes out or wakes up. The event is never brought up again, and it's one of the few moments in Three Houses where I genuinely have no idea what happened. If anyone does, please let me know lmao.

After this, the story is mostly the same as GD until after Shambala. However, one thing seems strange in the similarities. Edelgard has the exact same dialogue and cutscene at Enbarr in both routes. This may be nitpicky, but it doesn't make much sense for the route where you spend almost a year teaching her to be so similar to one where you spent a year tutoring Claude instead.  The cutscene where Byleth executes her doesn't make nearly as much sense in the Golden Deer route as there's not much of a personal attachment there, for Byleth or the player. She should have acted more like she was in the Blue Lions route, where she finds fighting you regrettable but necessary. It honestly feels like IS just threw it in for the Golden Deer route because they could. Also, I can't help but think it would have been much cooler if instead of Seteth helping you in the Hunting by Daybreak map, Edelgard did instead. Give her the same mechanics as a Mission Assistant from Part 1 where you can control her actions but can't trade with her. The reunion scene after that would have been much more interesting than the one with Seteth since Edelgard actually has a personal connection to the other students. It also makes much more sense than Edelgard showing up, trying to recruit you after attacking you twice, and leaving without waiting for her classmates (which is why she came since she had no idea Byleth was even alive). It would have also made the cutscene where Byleth and Edelgard duel make more sense. I mean, she calls Byleth an enemy, duels them for twenty seconds, and turns her back to said enemy while sheathing a sword. That's not generally something an emperor would do to someone who's an enemy. In general, I think Edelgard should have had more presence in the Church route. 

Back to the church route. After Shambala, I don't really have many complaints. You finally discover the whole truth about Byleth, the game ends with a cool cutscene, and the final boss fight is the first actually difficult map in the entire route assuming you don't have twelve fliers and stride. The only thing that struck me as odd was that Rhea loses control in the Church route but not the GD route. Unless I'm missing something, the exact same events play out at Shambala, so I'm not really sure what makes her turn berserk in one route but not the other. Not a huge deal, but I thought I'd point it out for the sake of being thorough. For the same reason, I'm not really sure why Nemesis wakes up only in the Golden Deer route besides needing a different final boss so it wasn't glaringly obvious how similar the routes are.  All in all, a solid ending, but many of the chapters leading up to it feel empty if you've already played the GD route. 

I still loved the game of course, or I wouldn't have spent 180 hours playing it, but I wouldn't recommend playing the church route soon after or before playing GD. Claude's route does more or less the same things but better and centers around a much more interesting character than Byleth.

Edited by LegendOfLoog
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3 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Something I found strange is that the GD and Church route open up a bit of a plot hole in Edelgard's route. In those two routes, TWSITD blow up Fort Merceus with missiles in an attempt to kill off Byleth. Hubert somehow uses this information to locate their base and pass on the information to you through a letter in the event that the empire loses. Why doesn't he do this in Crimson Flower?

In GD/Church Hubert isn't anywhere near the battlefield and since the Death Knight lures you out it's clear that they knew about their intentions to launch the Nukes, making it easier to locate them (and I suppose he has some kind of lab to pinpoint them) , during BE he was just on the battlefield and didn't know it would happen so he has nothing to go on to find their base.

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5 minutes ago, Tharne said:

In GD/Church Hubert isn't anywhere near the battlefield and since the Death Knight lures you out it's clear that they knew about their intentions to launch the Nukes, making it easier to locate them (and I suppose he has some kind of lab to pinpoint them) , during BE he was just on the battlefield and didn't know it would happen so he has nothing to go on to find their base.

The lab thing is plausible, and it did appear like the Death Knight knew it was coming, so I could buy that in GD. In BE though, they were actually at Garreg Mach when Edelgard and Hubert get the report that Arianrhod blew up. It occurs right after Arundel drops by for an unexpected visit and says that it would be a shame if the Empire became another Arianrhod. So I guess if Hubert doesn't have any tools at Garreg Mach to figure this kind of thing out, that could be an explanation. Or Hubert just wasn't as prepared in BE, but since its never really mentioned how or why he can detect the base from a missile launch, I guess we don't have much to go on for the discrepancy.

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Contrasting the routes with each other makes me realize that Byleth might be a huge liability to his own side. The five years tend to go a lot more smoothly for the lord if he isn't there. 

If you don't side with Edelgard then she spends the timeskip conquering most of the Faerghus, driving Dimitri into exile and throwing the knights of Seiros into chaos. The only faction she hasn't crushed is the Alliance which is already an impotent enemy due to internal conflict. 

If you do side with Edelgard then the timeskip turns into a bloody stalemate with Dimitri secure on his throne and both Rhea and the archbishop reinforcing Dimitri. Rather than launch a pro imperial coup Cornelia just sits around for five years and never brings Dimitri down. 

If you side with Dimitri he's forced into exile and becomes an insane hobo. If you side with Edelgard he becomes king without any issue. 

Good job Byleth!

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On 8/13/2019 at 7:29 PM, 0 Def Cleric said:

The main theme that I've seen is essentially just "what kind of selfishness can really help the world?" left up to the player to answer. Every route is essentially the lord's (or Rhea's) own selfish reasons leading them to do things that they believe would improve both the world and their lives. And perhaps that selfishness does lead to positive results. It's essentially a deconstruction and reconstruction of the "humans are inherently good" thesis of psychology. No, humans aren't inherently good as in they don't inherently want to do things with no benefit to themselves, but yes, humans are inherently good as they'll choose a path they believe can benefit others as well as themselves when they have the opportunity to. It's fascinating, imo. 

I agree with this 100%

Edelgard is selfish. Ostensibly, she wants to "help the world". But her actions and dialogue make it pretty clear that its far more about revenge. I saw in another thread someone argue "why didn't she just work together with the others" but for her it was never about that.

Dmitri is also selfish, which I think is a little obvious. He's also a little insane.

And, of course, Claude doesn't bother to pretend, he straight up admits.it

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Finished the three main routes (not gonna bother with the church one) and had some time to let things sink in.

BL

I agree with most of what you're saying about the BL route and even found it somewhat odd at the time that it was so "easy" for Dimitri to get his troops. It would be like if in FE9 it turns out Crimea still had enough soldiers to fight Daen for some reason. Dimitri should have had to ask help from Claude and even if necessary make concessions of sort like giving more lands to the alliance in order to convince Claude to break the neutrality and aid him. I just don't see how the kingdom had the manpower to fight the empire head on. It also would have shown that being a blood crazy warrior has its costs and that by not going back sooner he failed his kingdom.

Speaking about the whole PTSD arc he seems to suffer from. I thought the setup was well done but the events in post timeskip were a bit lacking. I also would've liked it if at some point some of the BL got too fed up with Dimitri and some left for a chapter. I still like him for what he is, a character that takes the Marth archetype in some interesting ways but I feel like they could've done more with his mental issues.

BE

I really like this route for reasons you've mentioned like having a far less traditional FE lord. Edelgard is very refreshing and I quite like her. She might even be my favorite FE lord. It's my favorite route for that.

About the students staying with you no matter what, yeah that is definitely weird. The BE students I can somewhat understand. Most of them have an allegiance of sorts to the empire except for Dorothea. Recruited students make a lot less sense. I've started my final BE Edelgard run where I'll just recruit my favorites like Lysithea, Ingrid, Ashe and Marianne. Aside from Lysithea I really can't see those other characters staying. Hell, in Marianne's like list the first thing is "The godess" so I'm kind of curious to see what she'll say throughout the story.

GD

I don't really have anything to say on the GD route. It's not my favorite one but I think it's the best one.

 

--------------

Something I think they did better than Fates is the avatar but I couldn't help but be annoyed how much emphasis some of the students put on the professor. Some even change their allegiances because of you. I'm still fine with Byleth because in the end he's more of a creation and I find his backstory interesting enough.

On 8/12/2019 at 2:47 PM, Thane said:

Haha, thanks, I'm happy that people want to hear my thoughts on something. 

You're welcome back when you're done with Claude's bizarre adventures! 

Good question. I rather like most characters with only some exceptions, but even they tend to add something. 

I have a very big soft spot for Marianne, I must say, and Lysithea too. Ashe is also too wholesome for this world. 

Those are also some of my favorites :D!

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47 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

About the students staying with you no matter what, yeah that is definitely weird. The BE students I can somewhat understand. Most of them have an allegiance of sorts to the empire except for Dorothea. Recruited students make a lot less sense. I've started my final BE Edelgard run where I'll just recruit my favorites like Lysithea, Ingrid, Ashe and Marianne. Aside from Lysithea I really can't see those other characters staying. Hell, in Marianne's like list the first thing is "The godess" so I'm kind of curious to see what she'll say throughout the story.

Well Marianne despises crests maybe even more than Edelgard, so that could be her reason to stay. The one I'd struggle to understand would be Ingrid, I guess she doesn't like the crest system much either (seen as she has to marry someone because of it), but she's also incredibly loyal to both Dimitri and the Kingdom.

That said I'm pretty sure there are reasons for every character to be in every route, talking to people during explore time also gives you a general idea of why they're joining you.

On the goddess thing, I'm not sure Edelgard wants to eradicate the belief? Hubert is definitely more on that side (I recall him talking about Sothis as "false goddess") but Edelgard seems to just hate the Church, not necessarily the religion itself. It's a bit tricky, you can see the distaste in some of her lines, and yet sometimes she talks about the goddess as if she knows she exists, so I'm not sure what she believes in tbh.

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Sure they at least give us reasons, but it does not change that 90% of the cast feels like "italians in meme". And before someone get offended, i am italian.

Like, a character either do hate crests or do not. In the first case they should always side with Edelgard, not only when byleth is there.

It's a worse case of player worshipping than even Corrin that everyone not named Hubert of Dedue is willing to go againist their homeland, family, friends and the like just because the cool professor sided with someone else. At least make more of them enemies that can be recruited.

The friendship between Dimitri and his friends, expecially Sylvain, is ruined in my eyes by the fact that thy can abbandon him when he need them the most.

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24 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Sure they at least give us reasons, but it does not change that 90% of the cast feels like "italians in meme". And before someone get offended, i am italian.

Like, a character either do hate crests or do not. In the first case they should always side with Edelgard, not only when byleth is there.

It's a worse case of player worshipping than even Corrin that everyone not named Hubert of Dedue is willing to go againist their homeland, family, friends and the like just because the cool professor sided with someone else. At least make more of them enemies that can be recruited.

The friendship between Dimitri and his friends, expecially Sylvain, is ruined in my eyes by the fact that thy can abbandon him when he need them the most.

I see your point, but I don't think it stands. All the characters in this game have more sides to them, depending on the path you take some "sides" are more prominent than others, it just changes the importance of what they believe in.

For your example, Sylvain had to kill his own brother because of the crest system, and in the next 5 years witnesses his ex friend going insane, so it makes sense to side with the Empire. On the other hand, he's been friends with Dimitri for ages, his house not only comes from Faerghus but holds a big responsibility at the border, thus it makes sense for him to side with the Kingdom. What I'm getting at is that you can build your own canon, because it just turns out that everyone has good enough reasons to go down every path. Obviously some are more "in your face" than others, but it works nonetheless.

I don't really see a big role of Byleth in all of this, those people are not following the cool teacher, they're following what they want (and obviously what they want changes based on your decisions, but those are your decisions as the player, not as Byleth).

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2 minutes ago, timon said:

I see your point, but I don't think it stands. All the characters in this game have more sides to them, depending on the path you take some "sides" are more prominent than others, it just changes the importance of what they believe in.

For your example, Sylvain had to kill his own brother because of the crest system, and in the next 5 years witnesses his ex friend going insane, so it makes sense to side with the Empire. On the other hand, he's been friends with Dimitri for ages, his house not only comes from Faerghus but holds a big responsibility at the border, thus it makes sense for him to side with the Kingdom. What I'm getting at is that you can build your own canon, because it just turns out that everyone has good enough reasons to go down every path. Obviously some are more "in your face" than others, but it works nonetheless.

I don't really see a big role of Byleth in all of this, those people are not following the cool teacher, they're following what they want (and obviously what they want changes based on your decisions, but those are your decisions as the player, not as Byleth).

People being conflicted about something does not mean that there is not a natural resolution and an unnatural one. A consistent character has a set of priorities that would not change whitout a good reason. Sylvain either value Faergus more than he hates crests, the opposite of that, or he is paralized in a Buridans's donkey situation. In the game neither of the three happen, he just randomly change his sets of priorities based on route.

And most importanly, his conflict never comes up. He never question whatever he did the right choice(at least he does not in blue lions), wich is something an actually conflicted character would do. 

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2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

People being conflicted about something does not mean that there is not a natural resolution and an unnatural one. A consistent character has a set of priorities that would not change whitout a good reason. Sylvain either value Faergus more than he hates crests, the opposite of that, or he is paralized in a Buridans's donkey situation. In the game neither of the three happen, he just randomly change his sets of priorities based on route.

And most importanly, his conflict never comes up. He never question whatever he did the right choice(at least he does not in blue lions), wich is something an actually conflicted character would do. 

Well you don't have conflicts with yourself from a parallel universe do you? That's my point, the Sylvain that stays with Dimitri and the one that joins Edelgard are in fact two (albeit slightly) different characters.

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The reveal of the Inmaculate One definitely had effect in people's perception of the Church and Crest.

Fodlan isn't exactly stranger to dragons (I'm mean, Sothis is one after all), but they probably believed they were from older times, and find one (and specially one so aggresive) in the present would be... shocking.

Edited by Troykv
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On 8/15/2019 at 6:26 AM, dragonlordsd said:

I agree with this 100%

Edelgard is selfish. Ostensibly, she wants to "help the world". But her actions and dialogue make it pretty clear that its far more about revenge. I saw in another thread someone argue "why didn't she just work together with the others" but for her it was never about that.

Dmitri is also selfish, which I think is a little obvious. He's also a little insane.

And, of course, Claude doesn't bother to pretend, he straight up admits.it

Agreed. 

I feel like the main reason Edelgard is so controversial is because unlike Dimitri/Claude/Rhea, she comes off as stubbornly self-righteous. Yes, her intent was good (no one disagrees with her desire to remove Crests) but on all the routes, she is very deadset on her way being the “right way” and then proceeds to shove it down everyone else’s throat with minimal alternative options being considered. You can argue that she “tried” or she “couldn’t have negotiated” but to me, those are flimsy excuses. To jump straight to war because the other options were too difficult, just left a bad taste in my mouth. She doesn’t sound nearly as conflicted as she should if she was actually struggling with her decision, she just plays it off as a “necessary evil” in the all routes. If you didn’t agree with the necessity of it, you will have a hard time agreeing with her. It felt like her decision on what is the “best” solution was driven by personal reasons, but played off as “it was the only way.” That said, she was a good morally gray character, in my eye. 

Meanwhile, Dimitri, even insane, knows he is wrong, does not try to play the “good guy trying to liberate his kingdom from the big bad.” You get what you see with him, a man driven by revenge (at least in BL). In BE, his motivations may be more questionable since he isn’t nearly as crazy (he wasn’t isolated and he did end up becoming king so he does have some responsibility as its leader to defend against an aggressor, but probably still driven a fair bit by revenge). Even in BL, the game basically portrays him in a bad light for his actions - it shows that his revenge was basically completely misguided (by exposing the real perpetrator) and ontop of that, Dimitri himself recognizes that he was wrong, that he will have to live with the consequences of his actions, and refuses to shy away. 

Not saying one is better than the other, just shedding some light as to why people, myself included, find Dimitri and the others more tolerable than Edelgard. 

Edited by MessengerIris
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1 hour ago, MessengerIris said:

Agreed. 

I feel like the main reason Edelgard is so controversial is because unlike Dimitri/Claude/Rhea, she comes off as stubbornly self-righteous. Yes, her intent was good (no one disagrees with her desire to remove Crests) but on all the routes, she is very deadset on her way being the “right way” and then proceeds to shove it down everyone else’s throat with minimal alternative options being considered. You can argue that she “tried” or she “couldn’t have negotiated” but to me, those are flimsy excuses. To jump straight to war because the other options were too difficult, just left a bad taste in my mouth. She doesn’t sound nearly as conflicted as she should if she was actually struggling with her decision, she just plays it off as a “necessary evil” in the all routes. If you didn’t agree with the necessity of it, you will have a hard time agreeing with her. It felt like her decision on what is the “best” solution was driven by personal reasons, but played off as “it was the only way.” That said, she was a good morally gray character, in my eye. 

Meanwhile, Dimitri, even insane, knows he is wrong, does not try to play the “good guy trying to liberate his kingdom from the big bad.” You get what you see with him, a man driven by revenge (at least in BL). In BE, his motivations may be more questionable since he isn’t nearly as crazy (he wasn’t isolated and he did end up becoming king so he does have some responsibility as its leader to defend against an aggressor, but probably still driven a fair bit by revenge). Even in BL, the game basically portrays him in a bad light for his actions - it shows that his revenge was basically completely misguided (by exposing the real perpetrator) and ontop of that, Dimitri himself recognizes that he was wrong, that he will have to live with the consequences of his actions, and refuses to shy away. 

Not saying one is better than the other, just shedding some light as to why people, myself included, find Dimitri and the others more tolerable than Edelgard. 

Also agreed.

For some of these reasons, I hypocritically enjoy Hubert more than her, even though he co-signs everything she does and has a much shorter threshold for wanting to kill people for goals. He is openly disinterested in right or wrong, and his motivation is very clear. Do everything to protect Edelgard and make sure she succeeds in whatever it is she wants. This I can respect and appreciate the aesthetic of.

Comparatively, the necessity of Edelgard's actions for her goals isn't as simple, and just as you say, if you find that hard to accept, that causes a huge hiccup when it comes to getting along with her character. I suppose it is similar to how whether the player buys Dimitri's mental state and how, if they don't, that sends their feelings about him and his route down a sinkhole, and really that is pretty understandable even as someone who fell for him.

Edited by Holder of the Heel
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